View Full Version : Reasons for choosing your choice in Turntable?
Rare Bird
03-12-2012, 12:58
This isnt a topic open for argument, this is my personal findings/preference..
Three basic deck choices
Belt Drive:
Ever since first getting into TT's ive always bought Belt drives, reason being they were what generally came as an high quality British turntable hence an obvious choice, but over the years ive gone right of them, to me they are more trouble than what they are worth.
Direct Drive:
Yes ive had a few, never really been a fan but the ‘upto’ speed in around a quarter of a revolution attracted me somewhat, but my old J.A. Michell ‘Hydraulic’ & ‘Focus’ were as fast at getting upto speed.
Idler Wheel:
Over the years I have basically turned into a nutter that has an unhealthy OCD over reliability & also an obsession with vintage equipment, hence i have a whole new take on things..
Reliability is a massive massive issue for me. As ive exhausted my choice in turntable because ive had just about everything :D ..I was down to just three turntable choices.
Belt drives are absolutely out of the picture due to a few factors, the main one being the scrawny motors generally found in them, slow start up with heavy platter jobbies & of course belts :nono:
Direct drives, directly drive me to my worse nightmare ie: masses of electronics, motors arnt anything you can buy off the shelf & of course the though of a motor directly under my moving magnet cartride :eek:
Last but not least Idler Wheels.
To me this is the perfect move for my needs. My short list was Garrard ‘301’/’401’, Thorens ‘TD124’ & Goldring/Lenco (as last resort) ..
I used to own both the Garrard & ‘TD124’ at the same time many years ago, the reason being is one gave me what the other did’nt, I found the bottom end from the Garrard more forthright than the ‘TD124’, on the other end of the spectrum I found the ‘TD124’ had a slightly more open top end!
I also had a Goldring/Lenco ‘GL75’ but my intrest wasn’t on this deck because I instantly saw that the build quality was nowhere in the same field as the above units, that aside - Sitting down in a dark room & thinking about technicalaties, below are the decisions I came to & why I’ve ended up with the last turntable I’ll ever buy, which is obvious as I’m at the end of the road anyway.
My No.1 lust was the ‘TD124’ basically because it looks beautiful, however apart from the fact that these units are overpriced on the used marked imho & that the spares seem expensive, I took the somewhat small motor into consideration & also as it uses both Idler & Belt..I dismissed this unit as I know I could probably end up not living with it.
My 2nd choice was the ‘Garrard ‘301’/’401’. I love the design of these two units, the ’401’s arnt that badly priced on the used market & the motors are massive reliable jobbies that suit me to the ground, howevever my dislike is the strobe platter & the plastic chrome trim. If I remember back these are the reasons I sold my last one.. ‘301’ are just silly money imho...
My 3rd & choice for the deck. Goldring/Lenco ‘GL75’..A lot claim the pick-up arm aint that bad as long as you sort the V Block issues out & rewire, sorry but it’s an horrible arm imho & most probably the reason people sell the unit on (aswell as nutters that leave the motor transit bolts lock on & claim rumble :lol: ) . The unit in generally really fits the bill for me in a number of respects. The motor is a massive affair, uses absolutely no electronic components to run, when serviced will no doubt see me out. The decks are all mechanical & the bearing is of very high quality as is the platter. Removing the arm leaves you with a turntable centre to arm mounting centre of approx 209mm, perfect to fit another arm, which ive done. The only thing I have to get over is the lesser build quality compared to the other mentioned units & the fact it’s pressed from steel & not cast alloy, taking into consideration the negative points about the other units I can live with these two points.
Auditioning the unit fitted into a proper plinth with new arm I came to the conclusion that it sounds miles better than any Belt drive unit I’ve owned, sounds better than the Garrard that I can remember & equally as good as a ‘TD124’ but seems to have a better bottom end to my ears. So the moral of the story is the two factors that wouldn’t decide between my old Garrard ‘401’ & ‘TD124’ years ago, the ‘GL75’ has given all. The great thing is they are cheap plentifull..
This isnt a topic open for argument, this is my personal findings/preference..
:confused:
Audio Al
03-12-2012, 13:41
Nice review Andre
Ill be on the lookout for a 75 ;)
Rare Bird
03-12-2012, 13:42
:confused:
Nothing to be confused about
Rare Bird
03-12-2012, 13:49
Nice review Andre
Ill be on the lookout for a 75 ;)
http://inspirehifi.co.uk/enigma.html
Audio Al
03-12-2012, 13:51
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?78512-Hi-Fi-News-Lenco-Enigma-review-model-with-SME-arms-and-Cadenza-cartridge-for-sale
:stalks::eek::stalks::eek::stalks::eek:
Cough :D
Not seen one like that at a boot sale yet :lol:
the engine
03-12-2012, 15:31
That's what I like to see....a good well set out and un arguable totally biased opinion.Well done that man !
Even if you are wrong....
chris@panteg
03-12-2012, 15:45
That's what I like to see....a good well set out and un arguable totally biased opinion.Well done that man !
Even if you are wrong....
It's not a question of Andre being wrong , just his own preference ! So what's yours ?
Andre it is ok to state one's own choice of deck in this thread ? Just not to argue which is best , but what and how you got there ?
the engine
03-12-2012, 15:54
Never said he was wrong or not wrong.
Just saying even IF he is then it's his own view and he's perfectly right to express it...:doh:
And my choice is irrelevant as Andre states.Seeing as you asked though
I'd love a loricraft garrard 501 rolls royce edition with my audiomods arm if I had a little lottery win.
Glad the Lenco working out for you Andre I agree about the arm IMO best replaced but I know not everyone agrees with me
Nice post André.
I wouldn't criticise your choice or the reasons why. However I would point out the apparent size, or volume, of the motor is not a good way to assess the torque. A better way might be to look at the power consumption.
Thus
Garrard 301/401: 12 watt
Thorens 124/II: 15 watt
Goldring G75: 8 watt
Goldring G99: 15 watt
EMT 930: 18 watt
Regards
Rare Bird
03-12-2012, 18:54
Even if you are wrong....
How can i be wrong if it's my own preference! wrong about what?
Nice post André.
I wouldn't criticise your choice or the reasons why. However I would point out the apparent size, or volume, of the motor is not a good way to assess the torque. A better way might be to look at the power consumption. I put everything into consideration.
Thus
Garrard 301/401: 12 watt
Thorens 124/II: 15 watt
Goldring G75: 8 watt
Goldring G99: 15 watt
EMT 930: 18 watt
With reagrds to the top three choice's i didnt pick what i did for Torque reasons. As pointed out in the review why i chose what i did.
:confused:
Easy: just state the reasons for your own choice of T/T, without questioning or criticising anyone else's :)
Marco.
the engine
03-12-2012, 19:29
Wrong about nothing......as I said in my second post.
You could however be saying something which may be factualy wrong. In which case you would be wrong. But if your opinion is just yours then to you it must be right......even if it is wrong.
Like saying an elephant is a big blue creature....it's wrong. But if you see it as blue then how can anyone argue to you that it's not ?
And I would still defend your right to state that in your opinion an elephant is a big blue creature. See ?
And as it's a statement not inviting argument then this is irrelevant anyway. So good on ya.
Rare Bird
03-12-2012, 20:30
Yeh thanks it did state 'my personal findings/preference'' at the offset.
Andre, i thought you'd got yourself an L70?
gone and got yourself an L75 now :)
How can i be wrong if it's my own preference! wrong about what?
With regards to the top three choice's I didnt pick what I did for Torque reasons. As pointed out in the review why I chose what I did.
Yes, but you did make reference to the 'size' of the motors.
Rare Bird
03-12-2012, 20:33
Paul:
Yes but i already had a 'GL75' before the G'L70' i couldnt mount a new arm on the 'L70' without disfiguring it.
Paul:
Yes but i already had a 'GL75' before the G'L70' i couldnt mount a new arm on the 'L70' without disfiguring it.
ah, I see.
indeed, not good to disfigure an L70 :cool:
Rare Bird
03-12-2012, 20:45
I actually bought another badly damaged 'GL75' that i'm gonna perform a really nice paint job on just to see what it turns out like. I'm sure many will know the chosen colour :eyebrows: I don't feel bad about it being in such a bad state.
Easy: just state the reasons for your own choice of T/T, without questioning or criticising anyone else's :)
When I was young (The 80's), the technics was fairly expensive for students, so I DJ'd with L75, L78 and L78SE (over a period of time, I think I owned 10 or 11). In those days, everything I owned was for sale, so often, a friend liked my decks, I sold them, bought others, fixed them up, adjusted them the way they should be adjusted, made a new plinth and so on and so forth.
While the arms of the L75 and L78 were ok (yes v-blocks etc), the L78SE with it's S-arm was unusable for DJ's, feedback all over the place.
I sold the last pair when an uncle donated me his TD160.
Boy I love that Thorens, still have it, it's stock, but in top shape now, it's my relative reference. A deck for me is better or worse than my TD160.
It's fitted with a Stanton 681 with SE (NOS) stylus.
Started working at a Broadcast corporation and was forced to listen to EMT927, 930 and 948 :D
Great decks, but they didn't desturb the relationship between me and my Thorens.
So about 12 years ago, my girlfriend didn't like the looks of the TD160 in the living room. She bought me a used (exDJ) SL-1200. At first, I didn't like the sound of it, it certainly wasn't love at first sight.
Got rid of the girlfriend, kept the Thorens and the Technics ;)
A few years ago, the Technics in the attic, the Thorens as main vinylspinner, I decided to buy another Thorens, something "far" better.
One day, a nice TD126mkIII with SME III factory installed crossed my path and we stayed together.
It IS better than the TD160, but I don't have an emotional connection with it.
The SME III doesn't help it's case either, swapping out cartridges is a lot of work.
Somewhere in the process, I started reading forums like these.
And saw great comments on the SL-1200.
So I unpacked the SL-1200, started working on it, it's already as good as the TD160, but once you get bitten by the upgrade vampire, you're no longer happy until you can fly. (or have an eargasm)
So atm, I like my Technics best, but it took me some effort to get it right.
I will still choose the fully stock TD160 over the fully stock Technics.
I doubt I will go back to idler drives, but never say never again.
I never thought I'd go back to the Technics either :scratch:
I'm sure many will know the chosen colour
A shade like this ought to do it :)
http://img3.etsystatic.com/004/0/6315968/il_fullxfull.385051419_myj0.jpg
Rare Bird
03-12-2012, 21:06
Your good ;)
Thermionic Idler
03-12-2012, 21:38
Nice post André.
I wouldn't criticise your choice or the reasons why. However I would point out the apparent size, or volume, of the motor is not a good way to assess the torque. A better way might be to look at the power consumption.
Thus
Garrard 301/401: 12 watt
Thorens 124/II: 15 watt
Goldring G75: 8 watt
Goldring G99: 15 watt
EMT 930: 18 watt
Regards
In fact the Garrard 301 has a 16 watt motor. They dropped it to 12 watts for the 401 due to pickups having got lighter between the early 50's and the mid-60's, the original reason for the high torque was the need to spin 78's with heavy pickups without incurring any noticeable loss in rotational speed. The idea was the less powerful motor would run more quietly, though I've found my 301 to be quieter than both 401's I had before, go figure.
In fact the Garrard 301 has a 16 watt motor. They dropped it to 12 watts for the 401 due to pickups having got lighter between the early 50's and the mid-60's, the original reason for the high torque was the need to spin 78's with heavy pickups without incurring any noticeable loss in rotational speed. The idea was the less powerful motor would run more quietly, though I've found my 301 to be quieter than both 401's I had before, go figure.
Confess I only looked up the power consumption for the 401 and assumed it was the same for the 301. :doh:
I believe it was Linn's Ivor Tiefenbrun who stated the reason they used relatively 'puny clock motors' on the LP12, was the lower the power of the motor, the less unwanted noise it would impart to the platter.
Thermionic Idler
04-12-2012, 01:24
So to answer the original question. My agricultural unsophisticated old Garrard with a motor that could probably drive a washing machine. Why do I like it?
In short, I like the way it plays music. There is something about the pace and energy and solid TONE you get with idler-wheel driven decks that is thoroughly addictive and just pulls you into the music. Well, it does that for me anyway. Combine that with an SPU and it's magical. Plus the fact it keeps perfect speed by just using a ruddy big motor and induction brake instead of a lot of complicated electronics (granted in most good Japanese decks those electronics are pretty damned reliable).
I actually started this ruinous hobby with a Garrard 401 back in around 2000. In the intervening years I 'upgraded' to some very well regarded belt drive units, which initially were subjectively better --- audiophile buddies were forever telling me how much better they were.
And yet... I felt something special had gone missing but I couldn't put my finger on what it was. Getting the old 401 back out, despite it's slightly rough edges I could hear something in the way it played music that I just wasn't prepared to let go of, and I made the decision to refine Garrard idler playback as far as I could within budget. Of course I was told that I was insane but by that point I had a little more confidence in my own ears.
Deep down I'd always hankered after a 301, and it was early 2010 I think it was that I got talking to Ray Clark at Classic Hi Fi about purchasing one that he had restored... as I simply didn't have the confidence to chance it on eBay and do the restoration myself! Plus I'd seen pics of his black 301's and just loved the way they looked. It was at that time he was experimenting with the CNC manufacture of 301 chassis plates out of a solid billet of aluminium, and he'd just made the first one. Which I ended up buying. :)
Floyddroid
16-12-2012, 20:16
I don't think i have ever been in such a hell fired hurry that i couldn't wait a couple of revolutions of a TT platter for it to get up to speed. It really is down to personal preferance is it not?
I don't think i have ever been in such a hell fired hurry that i couldn't wait a couple of revolutions of a TT platter for it to get up to speed. It really is down to personal preferance is it not?
Psssst, you're supposed to give the platter on your NAS a good push to get it up to speed ;)
Wakefield Turntables
16-12-2012, 20:48
ive had two belt drive a linn lp12 and a alphason solo, I preferred the solo. I then got a 1210 and then a 301. I love my 1210, the 301 just seems so solid. I just dont like belt drives. DD and Idlers for me are just better than bd's, I have no idea why but I Just like them. so :ner:
My "preference" has ended up being for Pink Triangle Anniversarys.
Started with a school friend's Kenwood KD 2055 that was his dad's but just an ornament in my friend's bedroom. That got me enjoying vinyl and finding how cheap it could be discovering new (to me) music.
Discovered Pink Triangle decks and liked their looks and the aesthetic of the contrasting pink triangle against the wood grain. Discovered they were cheap! Discovered that "broken" ones were even cheaper and how simple they were to fix and get running well. Discovered that they sound great - for cheap.
Meanwhile I found out about their battles with the hifi press and the white-wash of Linn promotion in the hifi press in the UK and I liked their underdog status. I found out more detail as to the political and emotional meaning behind the name and ethos, and discovered that Arthur's background was in physics too (always trust a physics background over a hifi industry background!). So these found me warming to the brand (even though they no-longer existed) and I had that feeling of "being in the know" for what that's worth - they are often dismissed but always sounding excellent IMHO.
Then I discovered the Anniversary and wanted one for a long while, read all the contemporary rave reviews which highlighted the most important aspects of sound for me - transparency, soundstage, dynamics, detail (read tone into detail as it's the detail of a sound that gives the tibre and tone). Eventually found one at a good price - had a few problems to sort out but sounded fantastic. Found another for cheap once I'd sold the arm which turned out to be perhaps a one-off a late prototype battery PSU version that never made it market - more pride of ownership!
The Anniversary (when I have it set up!) does everything that I want from a TT and getting it right seems more down to arm/cart now.
Sound in the end, despite the reasons for the path I've taken, has won out.
Still, that doesn't preclude me from enjoying lots of other turntables - I really like the gear side of hifi and have had quite a few decks through my hands and many just sitting about waiting for either the realisation I'm never going to find the time to do anything with them (so I should sell on) or waiting for me to set them up and try them out properly.
I like rarer high-end stuff simply because they are going to be more interesting designs and much better built and seeing the same thing everywhere becomes a little of an enthusiasm killer for me.
Still, I've tried many popular, common decks: Linns so far have always been a little nothing special compared to my anniversary despite costing more... highest I've been is valhalla/Ittock kind of range. Thorens TD124 was good with a Syrinx PU2/Decca - nice dynamics and energy but lacked in other areas. 401s and 301s have always been in flimsy plinths and with SME 3009s (might be ok soundwise but really doesn't excite me in any way) and probably needed new idlers and bit of a re-build to get the last bit of rumble out - IMO, to get them up to the Anni's standard you have to dedicate yourself to a fair bit of reconditioning and building a massive plinth. I've never got around to it (as I've been already happy with my TT). Lovely to use though with their solid clunky levers. Got an LAD as my regular DD deck and it was fun as I always enjoy fast start-up times when going through new charity shop vinyl you've bought - nothing special though.. Then I sold the Jelco arm when hard-up and so not used it since..
Have a nice Sony TTS8000 that I'm sure will be with me for a fair while - just need to sort out a really nice arm for it, 10" I think. Engineering is top notch!
Still a few more I'd love to try .. The top Naks, K-07D, EMTs, the AEG/Denon studio decks, Denon DP100 and modern crazy priced decks like the Lumen White Mystere (just for the precision engineering) - the regular rare jazz
I really don't relate to the need for compartmentalisation in turntable drive technology that has bubbled up recently on AoS. My choice of deck has NEVER been about how it works, only about the sound, practicalities, brand history, exclusiveness etc. As long as it works well, that's all that matters.
I'm all for enthusiasm about your own choices but when people try to make it tribal.. well...
Whatever! (it's a bit sad...)
I started my turntable odyssey with a dual 505 II deluxe. I peaked my belt drive interest with a Rega P9, a lovely sounding deck but emotionally something was lacking.
Around this time I met my future wife and bought her a slate plinthed lenco for Christmas. I loved the sheer heft of this beast and marvelled at the engineering. The guy I bought it from later contacted me to tell me he was selling a g99 and I bought it like a shot.
A minty 401 then appeared on eBay and, now working in burnley, a stumbled upon "Slateage" who made me an amazing plinth to house, what had been for many years my dream deck. A gorgeous British tonearm completed the package.
I went back to belt drive with another vintage deck housed in a bespoke plinth. It's better than the p9 but can be bought for a song; the Thorens TD125. It makes lovely sounds alongside my 401 and G99 now and I adore all three of them. They are permanent fixtures I think while others may come and go.
walpurgis
18-12-2012, 23:30
Nice post André.
I wouldn't criticise your choice or the reasons why. However I would point out the apparent size, or volume, of the motor is not a good way to assess the torque. A better way might be to look at the power consumption.
Thus
Garrard 301/401: 12 watt
Thorens 124/II: 15 watt
Goldring G75: 8 watt
Goldring G99: 15 watt
EMT 930: 18 watt
Regards
Not that is really matters, but is there a discrepancy here? As far as I'm aware the GL75 and G99 (and G88?) use the same motor and have platters that seem to weigh around the same. I've owned all three. And by the way, I'd rate the G99 and G88 as being at least as capable sonically as the Garrard idler TTs.
I've owned two Garrard 301s and a 401, each of which I quite liked. Also a couple of Thorens TD150s, Micro Seiki MB300 and MB600, they were all rather nice, three Technics SL-1200 and an SL-1800, these were reasonably OK, a couple of Regas, not greatly impressed with them, about five Connoisseur BD2s, which were OK apart from the dreadful SAU2 arm they came with, I also had about ten Connoisseur BD1s, which I absolutely loved, nothing that crude and simple should sound anywhere near that good!
Currently, I'm using a Toshiba SR-370 heavyweight DD turntable, with a slightly upgraded Mission 774 arm and the combination sounds excellent.
http://i49.tinypic.com/2cg2a83.jpg
I also have another SR-370 for spares, a Pioneer PL-61 awaiting a minor refurb and my last remaining Connoisseur BD1 awaiting an overhaul and plinth!
http://i45.tinypic.com/160aijq.jpg http://i45.tinypic.com/ergyh3.jpg
The g99 is as good as the 401. At a recent bakeoff it was rated more highly though arms and carts differ. Both in slate plinths.
tannoyman
19-12-2012, 16:41
Hi Guys
In my early days in audio I had the unbiquitous Garrard SP 25II which was a rumbly agricultural bit of kit. When cash was available I bought a Dual 1219 which superficially seemed the bees knees. Then a friend bought a beautiful Garrard 401 with SME 3009 II arm which I was very impressed by. So I saved my pennies and bought one complete with the SME 2000 plinth system. I really liked it but could not cure the rumbling.
At this point I must have lost my presence of mind because I sold the Garrard and bought a rather crumby Fons CQ 30 because it was cheap - not a good reason to buy a deck I found. The next stage was an Ariston SL110 which was equipped with a Linn Basic arm. This was effectively the poor man's LP12 and an altogether better deck than its predecessor. However I hankered after the LP12 and eventually bought one in 1985 complete with Ittok LVII arm. I really loved this deck and ran it for over 20 years. In the end I began to feel that while the Linn was never unpleasant it did tend to make records sound a bit sameish. One day I saw an SME 10 with Series IV arm (brand new unopened) on E bay for two thirds of the list price so I checked it's provenance and bought it. I was very impressed with the deck and would have happily run it for ever but I had an opportunity to visit the SME factory. I was completely blown away by what I saw and heard and I decided that I would have to buy the cheapest of SME's decks with suspension, the 20/3A.
I have owned it for 2 years now and it is far and away the best deck I have owned and one of the very best have ever heard and so it will not be leaving my music room any time soon.
David :):)
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