Home Cinema. Work in progress. Advice needed

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

I've just embarked on a pretty big project: a home cinema. Lots of building and DIY work to be done before we get to the interesting stuff. 7734
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[6L6]

Probably the biggest tip I have experienced in making a good home cinema is to be able to get the area pitch black. Black so that with the lights off you can't see your hand in fromt of you.

This makes any screen look immensely better, and adds to the whole effect.

It's easiest to plan for it whilst you are redecorating, hence why I mention it now.

Also, while you have everything torn about, run your speaker cables as well as new mains for both outlets and perhaps new wall sconce lighting with dimmers. It's very cinema-esque.

[Martinh]

Looks like a nice room you have there Harry.

+1 for burying the cables in the wall.

Dont forget to put some Ethernet cables in too! Even if you don't need them now, you will in the future, trust me.

If you can, go for 6.1 or 7.1 with a speaker either side of the sofa and two spread out behind. Makes a big difference to the evenness of the surround effects IME.

And big powerful sub(s) make it all (literally) feel more realistic!

Good luck with the project.

Cheers,

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

[QUOTE=Martinh;387431]Looks like a nice room you have there Harry.

+1 for burying the cables in the wall.

Dont forget to put some Ethernet cables in too! Even if you don't need them now, you will in the future, trust me.

I'm trying to think of everything re cables but although I'm confident with Hifi, this home cinema shit is all new to me.

So, why Ethernet and what would it connect from/to?

What other cables do I need to run in apart from speaker cables.

Thanks for your help.

What cables

[Martinh]

The Ethernet cables would run back to your Internet router.

They will be for streaming music and movies either directly from the Internet (Netflix, lovefilm, spotify etc) or stored on a PC elsewhere in the house. Wifi is OK, but Ethernet is faster and more reliable, especially when streaming HD content.

You can buy Ethernet cable cheaply and it's worth putting it in, even if you don't intend to use it right now. Streaming music and movies is the future and this will ensure that you are future-proofed.

Also worth putting in 2 arial feeds from the roof arial for freeview and FM. I only put in 1 to my lounge and have been regretting it since.

Mains sockets-wise, you can never have too many sockets for a home cinema setup!

Hope this helps,

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Thanks for the tips. Mains sockets no problem. Aerial feed easy. Ethernet almost impossible. Cinema room is in loft. Router and phone socket on ground floor of house. Couldn't be further away.

[Martinh]

Thanks for the tips. Mains sockets no problem. Aerial feed easy. Ethernet almost impossible. Cinema room is in loft. Router and phone socket on ground floor of house. Couldn't be further away.

If you are getting an electrician in, maybe ask him about it. You'd be amazed at what they can do. My Ethernet cable runs inside the boxing around the bathroom soil stack, up through the loft, down through cupboards and down behind plaster boards to my music PC. Mind you, my house is of 'modern' construction (i.e. crap :)).

What equipment are you putting in your cinema Harry?

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Martin, the house is 1930s and built very solidly. There really is no chance of getting Ethernet run in.

As for equipment. I'm going to have to do a lot of learning. I can barely work a modern TV.

Basically I want a home cinema and Hifi in the same room. It will be a second system but my ears have expensive tastes. That's why I'm using Usher 6381s as fronts, 6371s as tears and a x616 centre. I don't think I'll need a sub but would appreciate your thoughts.

I'm putting a 50 inch TV in but not sure whether to go 3D.

I want a CD player and amp for the Hifi but not sure where to go from there. I know nothing about AV processors/receivers (is that what they're called) or how I tie it all in with speakers.

As I said earlier complete novice. Been dabbling with Hifi for 40 years but this home cinema shit is baffling at the moment.

Help!!!!!!

[Macca]

Just a couple of my thoughts re this

I don't like centre speakers, I really don't see the point of them. With a lot of older films you get single speaker mono sound and if anyhting they make dialogue harder to hear on 5.1 mixes.

Don't get a 3D tv. It's really naff and a gimick. 50 inch is the absolute minimum you should go for - personally I would think bigger, or as it is a dedicated room - get a screen and projector. If you go for a 50 inch a couple of month s down the line you will think 'hmm - should really have gone bigger.'

You probably won't really need a sub but if you do decide to get one you don't need to spend much as all they do is reproduce explosions and gunfire.

Paint the whole place blackboard black and put in little courtesy lights.

Probably a bit controversial but there you go.

[Martinh]

Well, your first step will be to find a suitable A/V amp to go with your speakers.

You could buy one with 7 channels of amplification built in or buy an A/V processor and separate power amps to go with it. As you like Cyrus amps with your Ushers, that would be a good place to start perhaps?

I don't think Cyrus currently do an A/V processor, so you'd need to find another brand for that part.

Next part is to find a blu ray player (which will also play CDs and DVDs). The A/V amp/processor can also play your music when set into stereo mode. It will also have several analogue and digital inputs for you to add other sources, as required. E.g. If the blu ray player doesn't do it for you with music CDs, you can always add a dedicated CD player later.

I think the hardest part is building a system that sounds great for both music and movies, as the two need very different sonic characteristics IMHO.

Maybe your dealer can suggest some setups to try?

Cheers,

[Mark Grant]

There really is no chance of getting Ethernet run in.


There is always a route, that's what electricians and cable monkeys are good at :)

There is outdoor CAT 6 cable available so it can go on the outside in places if needed, think outside the box :)

You will need Ethernet up there so devices that need fast network access will work OK.

You also need a good wifi signal as many control devices such as tablets need to be able to wireless connect to your router to then control equipment that is on the network, so you need wireless and wired.

I would run a good quality CAT 6 cable and fit another router/ access point in the cinema room to provide a few network ports and a strong wi-fi signal in the loft.
everything is or will soon be 'app' driven these days and without a good network it wont be reliable.

I always install some spare network cables as you can never have enough and it costs pence per metre, even for the good stuff such as blackbox (http://www.blackbox.co.uk/gb-uk/)

Sounds like a fun project.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Cheers Mark. I'm sure there's a way. Getting it past the wife is another matter. She's had 22 years of mess and work in progress so I can see her point.

I like the sound of the outside Ethernet cable.

When you say network cable you've lost me.

[Mark Grant]

Network cable the same as ethernet cable , part of the network.

I always install spare Ethernet cables it should say.

The reason for spares is you never know what new box you might buy that can be connected to other parts of the house with Ethernet /network cables.

For example the HDMI picture and audio signal from a sky box in the lounge could be sent up to the loft room over a pair of Ethernet cables and suitable interface boxes at each end. This is completely separate from the 'normal' internet network that your router provides hence the need for separate cables.

[Mark Grant]

I like the sound of the outside Ethernet cable.



this kind of cable:
http://www.blackbox.co.uk/gb-uk/si/13338/CAT6-UTP-Outdoor-Rated-Solid,Gel-Filled,Bulk-Cable/V1.S1.F5124.O5

I guess you dont need a 304 metre reel though :eek:

Ask here for advice before buying a cheap make as there is lots of rubbish on ebay that is not even real copper, it is sometimes called CCA which is Copper Clad Aluminium rather than solid copper cores, cheap but not really what you want in your own home.

[Martinh]

Didn't realise that there was outdoor Ethernet cable available. As Mark says, you 100% need Ethernet cable(s) into your room.

I'm also not convinced about centre channel speakers. You'll need to play about with it to see what you prefer. The centre channel can be switched in or out though the settings on your A/V processor.

Don't agree about not needing a sub. Try and loan a big one and you'll feel what I mean!

Cheers,

[JimC]

As someone who has to go to peoples houses and fix their AV Equipment, don't bury the cables. There will come a time when you want to get to one of them............for whatever reason..............and you can't!

Don't worry about making the room too black. A small amount of Ambient Lighting, possibly from behind the screen (Philips got this almost right.....the first thing they have got right since the CD!!) will make the Blacks look Black.....er.

If you want good blacks then don't get a Projector unless Greys are what you're looking for!!

Some real generalisations there I realise but I think they are valid having seen some awfull rooms and been asked the question ''............so, great set-up and pic quality don't you think.......?'' ''.....Erm, no!.....!''

Make your Equipment and cables totally accessable. There are some great solutions for doing this but 'hiding' them also.

If you have room make all 5 (7) speakers the same kind. Don't skimp on the 'effect' channel speakers. On most great 'action' films there is a lot going on in the Centre and Rears which small speakers just cannot reproduce. Having the Sub try and compensate just doesn't cut it in my opinion. Get the Main speakers right and you can almost do away with a Sub, I have...although I do have quite a small room.

When choosing a Screen, get the store to demo it in SD. If you can find a screen which looks good on SD then it'll look stunning on HD. And don't let anyone else tell you which looks better and how to set it up. You're going to be using your eyes (I presume!!) so only you can decide what looks good and what doesn't and if something doesn't look right to you but the Magazines et al say it's the best screen on the market then that is not the right screen for you.
The same goes for the Audio Equipment, if it sounds good to you then that's the kit to buy.

Do keep us posted on what you get up to and enjoy the journey. Don't rush anything!

James.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Hi James. Thanks very much. All useful stuff. I think I've solved cabling issues. I'll be constructing a false 'skirting' round two sides of the room.

Re speaker cables. I want to have five speakers linked up to the AV system but only front speakers connected to a separate Hifi system. Any thoughts on that?

Many thanks for help so far and apologies for being such a mum pry.

[daytona600]

Visuals 50inch tv , same money for a projector , great deals on older models with everbody wanting 4K or 3D , 100inch fixed or motorised screen or more ideal for movies

source good universal player covering all current/future standards
marantz/denon or new oppo models cover everything 2d/3d , streaming , sacd , cd etc
5.1 or 7.1 analogue outputs into multichannel pre-amp with power amps to drive your ushers

[JimC]

..............Re speaker cables. I want to have five speakers linked up to the AV system but only front speakers connected to a separate Hifi system. Any thoughts on that?.............................

Most, if not all good AV Amps have 'Pre-Outs' so you could feed the Front Pre-Outs from the AV Amp into your Stereo Hi-Fi Amp into an 'AUX' input for example.

This should mean no extra Speaker Cabling and just a pair of RCA's between the two Amps and only one set of Main Fronts.
I've seen a lot of systems where this method has been implemented and it works very well.

James.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Sorry James, you've lost me.

[chelsea]

I'd go for a top pair of speakers and a sub if needed as i hate surround sound.

[Reid Malenfant]

Most, if not all good AV Amps have 'Pre-Outs' so you could feed the Front Pre-Outs from the AV Amp into your Stereo Hi-Fi Amp into an 'AUX' input for example.

This should mean no extra Speaker Cabling and just a pair of RCA's between the two Amps and only one set of Main Fronts.
I've seen a lot of systems where this method has been implemented and it works very well.

James.
The problem here is every time you want to watch the AV system you'll need to set the volume control on the stereo amp to precisely the same position to get the fronts balanced with the centre & surround speakers. Then you'll be able to use the AV amp to control the complete system volume.

While this is in theory a workable solution, it'd be far better to bypass the pre amp (if there is one) on the stereo side & connect the pre outs from the AV amp to a power amp directly. That way you set everything up on the AV amp & as soon as you switch over you no longer need to mess about.

That's the way I did things before I bought my ARC MP1 & yes it does indeed work very well :cool:

[Mark Grant]

Good to see you back online Mark :)

[Reid Malenfant]

Cheers Mark, yes it's just so good to have a working computer again :D

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Reid, let's see if I've got this.

I buy an AV amp. I connect the Pre out to my Hifi power amp. So far so good.

I presume the front speakers are connected to the stereo power amp and the rears and centre to the AV amp?

Is that what you're saying? Or have I completely misunderstood?

[Reid Malenfant]

You have it precisely right ;)

You'll need a switch box though :) You need to be able to switch the power amp that is powering the front speakers between your hifi setup & the AV amp.

Something like one of those tasty Beresford switchers would be perfect :D

I used a plastic cheapy, but I still was in no was disappointed.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

So, I connect my CD, DVD, etc etc into the AV amp?

I connect rear and centre speakers to AV amp. I connect front speakers to power amp.

Where does switch go?

[Reid Malenfant]

No :)

Leave all your hifi kit connected to your hifi stereo pre amp ok ;) The hifi pre will have far less cobblers inline with the audio signal than the AV amp..

Connect your BD & or DVD player to the AV amp. Connect the front left & right pre out of the AV amp to this switch box. Also connect the pre amp output of your hifi pre amp to the switch box. The output of the switch box simply then selects whether you are going to listen to stereo (hifi) or AV surround. It simply dictates whether the front power amp gets it's signal from your pre amp or AV amp ;)

Obviously you are going to use the internal centre & surround amps in the AV amp.

Doing it that way you get the best of both worlds :cool:

[Martinh]

So, I connect my CD, DVD, etc etc into the AV amp?

I connect rear and centre speakers to AV amp. I connect front speakers to power amp.

Where does switch go?

For the best results, all amps and speakers need to be the same make, so that you get the same sonic character all round.

That means 3 stereo or 6 mono power amps. Eeek! :eek:

[Reid Malenfant]

For the best results, all amps and speakers need to be the same make, so that you get the same sonic character all round.

That means 3 stereo or 6 mono power amps. Eeek! :eek:
There is an element of truth in this ;)

The amplifiers don't matter a fig in reality, what does matter is how the phase of each loudspeaker matches. If you ran full range speakers with a single driver in each enclosure then it wouldn't be a problem. The problem comes about with two way speakers & above due to the crossovers, they all need to be as in phase as possible.

Strangely I'm attempting to do the very same thing myself right now using winISD & get a 4 way centre integrated with 5 way left & right speakers :eek:

It's taking some work, but I'm getting there...

[JimC]

..............what does matter is how the phase of each loudspeaker matches. If you ran full range speakers with a single driver in each enclosure then it wouldn't be a problem. The problem comes about with two way speakers & above due to the crossovers, they all need to be as in phase as possible....

A lot of modern AV Amps have an Auto Set-Up Mode where one plugs a Microphone (supplied) into the Amp and set it off Auto 'tuning' itself. The Mic has to be positioned in the Listening Position and then one must leave the room whilst the Amp goes off sending out pulses of White Noise which the Mic detects and the DSP within the Amp adjusts for Level, Distance and a good Amp should also do Phase.

JC

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

This is getting waaaay too complicated. I need to rest my brain. Off to B&Q to buy plasterboard, insulation etc etc etc.

[Canetoad]

Harry, all you need is one of Stan's speaker switching boxes. Run front speaker cables from your AV amp to one side of the switching box, run speaker cables from your hifi amp to the other and then run a set of speaker cables from the box to your front speakers. You then just flip a switch to have the front speakers either in your AV setup or your hifi. That's what I have done and it works fine. :)

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

That sounds like a plan Bernie.

Who is this Stan man?

[Reid Malenfant]

A lot of modern AV Amps have an Auto Set-Up Mode where one plugs a Microphone (supplied) into the Amp and set it off Auto 'tuning' itself. The Mic has to be positioned in the Listening Position and then one must leave the room whilst the Amp goes off sending out pulses of White Noise which the Mic detects and the DSP within the Amp adjusts for Level, Distance and a good Amp should also do Phase.

JC
You are misunderstanding the context of what I was saying I think.

You are refering to total loudspeaker phase, IE if one happens to be connected arse about face (180 degrees out of phase).

What I'm refering to in regards to my original quote is phase shifts caused by crossovers ;) The chap that I quoted mentioned that it's best to have speakers from one single manufacturer. The reason for this is because the whole 5 speaker system will have been designed (assuming the manufacturer actually knows what they are doing), so that all the phase changes due to the xover happen at the same rate & at the same frequencies.

If they didn't then you'll get cancelations due to things going out of phase & while the front left & right speakers may sound great on there own (or the rear surrounds used as fronts, again on there own), combining the two would make a balls up - unless things happen as I described.

This is probably why it's a good idea to purchase a ready made AV speaker setup, to avoid these problems.

The thing is I also know what I'm doing, so I can design my own :D

[Canetoad]

That sounds like a plan Bernie.

Who is this Stan man?

Beresford.

Here (http://www.homehifi.co.uk/products/TC-7220.html)

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Beresford.

Here (http://www.homehifi.co.uk/products/TC-7220.html)

Yep. That's exactly what I need. Not cheap mind.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Been ages since I posted on this. I've put about 300 hours into the loft conversion. First fix electrics done. All joinery work done and plasterer coming next Wednesday. Best bit of all is that I've put soundproofing on floors. The stuff i needed is about £45 a sq metre but I managed to get a great deal on some ikoustic stuff. It's brilliant http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/05/u7e7umu3.jpg
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[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

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[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

After three days with rollers and paintbrushes in my hands I feel I'm making progress at last. Hopefully rooms will be carpeted and I can start opening the boxes with all the toys in.