Tonearm options?

[OneyedK]

I have my mind set on a Jelco 750D for a while now.
But funds are low and I'll have to wait until Shuggie produces a new batch of collars.
So, too much time, and you start thinking, what are the other options?

The cartridge I want to use is my trusted Denon DL-103R and in the future an Ortofon Rondo Bronze or something similar.
That's the main reason why I cannot use my SME II Improved Fixed or my SME III, as both are lightweight.
I case of the III, there's another reason, I don't like to fiddle with the counterweight every time I switch a cartridge.

Options I would like to have:
* removeable headshell with azimuth adjustment
* tonearm damper, preferably "closed", I try to keep the hifi environment free of dust, but that's not my main hobby:rolleyes:

What I don't like:
Rega style arms, lot of experience with them in the past, luckily not on my own decks, but it's personal, me and them, we're no friends. (I'm not saying they sound bad, they can sound great, but I don't like the mechanics)

I'm aware of the fact that everyting points to Jelco, but I want to know if I overlooked another great option.

Thanks for having a look!

[chris@panteg]

What about tweaking the stock arm ? Send it to J7 , certainly do you until funds improve .

[OneyedK]

What about tweaking the stock arm ? Send it to J7 , certainly do you until funds improve .
Hmmm:scratch:
Without changing the armtube, improvements will be minor, no?

[chris@panteg]

Well , extra damping in the tube + rewiring and there is the KAB damper ? Or wait until you can afford the Jelco ?

[cuddles]

Is the stock arm really worth fettling? I've been toying with the idea of having it pimped up - I've wondered if the results are a significant improvement :scratch:

[Gromit]

Is the stock arm really worth fettling? I've been toying with the idea of having it pimped up - I've wondered if the results are a significant improvement :scratch:

I'd say it is worth fettling a little bit - from my own experience of a highly-modded RB251 on a previous 1210 I owned, the std arm is a more lyrical, musical device. Not as hard-hitting as an RB but with more dynamic finesse. The KAB damper works nicely too - tidies up the bottom end noticeably.

Whilst one would never say the Technics arm is heavily engineered (the arm tube/bearing assy on its own weighs very little, even feeling slightly flimsy) it is very nicely assembled bit of kit. For what someone like J7 charges to re-wire the std arm it could be worth a shot? It's such a lovely arm to use, and the vta adjustment arrangement is a dream.

[Marco]

+1, and an excellent post; the sentiments of which are obviously borne from experience :)

Marco.

[Gromit]

The sad thing is that the OEM arm gets a hell of a lot of undeserved stick (notably from some of the press) and therefore so many people believe it's true.

In the numerous 1210's I've owned over the years, the std arm has kept a wide range of cartridges very happy - from humble Stanton 500 to stuff like the Lyra Dorian. The Lyra was a surprisingly good match - sounded fabulous in fact - the slightly softer, more 'homely' sound of the Tecchy arm balancing nicely with the Lyra's full-on presentation. Load it up with a heavy headshell and matching counterweight to hear a 103 sing very sweetly in it too. :)

Wouldn't mind hearing one of Arthur's modded Technics arms - not cheap admittedly but a lovely solution. :)

[OneyedK]

I'm aware of how good the stock tonearm is, that's the main reason why it's still there;)

But I don't want to invest in upgrades for two reasons:
1) I learned that the hard way, small and "inexpensive" upgrades can cost you a lot of money at the end of the line. (is there an end?) Learned that from buying a lot of cartridges, some were better at this, others were better at that, but once I bought the 103R, I had my aha erlebnis. There it was, the sound I was after... If only I had bought that in the first place, I wouldn't be sitting here with a large number of carts that I seldom (never) use and still have the money to buy me a 750D.

2) What would the uprades bring me? Yes, the arm damping would be great...
But the rewire? I'm using an 103R, that's an MC with 19 Ohms output impedance. A few milliohms difference in resistance of the wires would not change the sonic signature... If I was a SPU user, I'd go for silver wire, no doubt, resistance is very important there.
Same goes for capacitance, the 103R doesn't loose anything, even loaded with 1000pF (I actually tried that, at least one friend said it sounded even better). But if my main cart was an MM, I'd ask for tonearm cable with the lowest possible capacitance, as it really matters there.
I will not even mention inductance, because that's a real can of worms...

[MCRU]

Just get a Jelco and be done with it, you will get a good price when you get bored with it as they fetch good prices 2nd hand, for the 103 they sound excellent together IMO. You can even further up-grade it later with a nice oyaide carbon fibre headshell.

[Johnnie7]

hard to say where is your best option here

the stock arm on tecky 1200 deck is very good once fettled a little
and its vta adjuster is great for the fiddlers

rega arms are also very good but need perfect fitting to get azimith perfect on decks where there is a arm board to plinth

jelco arms are very similar to the technics arms in build and quality ...both use very cheap internal wires...(same can be same for the rega arms also)

the cable in these arms sucks out some of the music ...and all benefit from upgraded wires :) and a dam good fettle
any questions please just ask

bw
j7

[OneyedK]

I received good news from Hugo, so the Jelco option comes closer :)

@j7: what kind of tonearm cable would you suggest for the Jelco?

[nat8808]

I think he'd recommend the internal wires changed..

Ever thought of an AT1010 or similar? Closed trough damping etc.

How about a Jelco 370 instead? One dressed as L.A.D from the 80s - about £150 when they turn up on eBay..

What's the difference between that and the 750? Look the same to me, including the damping.

[OneyedK]

I think he'd recommend the internal wires changed.
Yes, of course, I got lost in translation ;)

so j7, what kind of internal wiring would you recommend?


I haven't seen a 370H in the flesh, but read comments about the bearings not being equal to those of the 750.
Another thing is that it terminates on loose wires, so no connector...
(this might be an actual plus)

[DSJR]

jelco arms are very similar to the technics arms in build and quality ...both use very cheap internal wires...(same can be same for the rega arms also)

the cable in these arms sucks out some of the music ...and all benefit from upgraded wires :) and a dam good fettle
any questions please just ask

bw
j7

Rega once took pride in telling me that the wires used in the RB arms was a high quality Hitachi sourced OFC type and they genuinely couldn't understand why these should be replaced....... All I can say is that these internal wires are VERY fine and maybe it's just the gauge of them. I haven't a clue how a heavier gauge cable would affect the bearing drag, but I suspect there wouldn't be an issue as the wires are twisting in use.

[blake]

Yes, of course, I got lost in translation ;)

so j7, what kind of internal wiring would you recommend?


I haven't seen a 370H in the flesh, but read comments about the bearings not being equal to those of the 750.
Another thing is that it terminates on loose wires, so no connector...
(this might be an actual plus)

370H was/is a cheap version of the MMT and the MMT does not really compare to the 750D (I've owned both).

Headshell on the 370 is inferior. The arm tube is of higher quality on the 750D and much better damped. Jelco says the 750D has the best bearings and internal wiring of any arm they have ever done.

I would think twice about ripping the internal wiring out of a 750D. Jelco uses PCOCC copper even in their headshell leads (which I prefer to a set of Nordost Valhalla leads that came with a custom headshell I bought-I am admittedly not a fan of silver wire) and, based on what they say about the internal wiring I would expect it to be quite good and better than what you might find in the less expensive Jelcos.

In any event, it sounds quite good to me running balanced from a Gyrodec into an Aqvox phono stage.

[Johnnie7]

I received good news from Hugo, so the Jelco option comes closer :)

@j7: what kind of tonearm cable would you suggest for the Jelco?

thanks for asking m8ty

that would be the same as i use on my pu7 arm
and regas
and sme arms etc etc

i offer cardas 33ga Ofc internal wire as 1st choice bang for buck
and Super Ofc external cable with modified gold phonos

i can also offer some arm tube foam damping if wanted

and most importantly, with the job i normally set the bearings correctly
in these mass produced arms that time and attention was sadly missed

so its not just the wire upgrade its a whole rebuild that makes the differance

bw
j7

[OneyedK]

cardas 33ga Ofc internal wire as 1st choice bang for buck
Nice, that's what I used in my SME II Improved Fixed too...

The bearing adjustment you offer is indeed valuable.
I wouldn't dare to touch those things, not on the Technics, not on the Jelco...

[RobbieGong]

thanks for asking m8ty

that would be the same as i use on my pu7 arm
and regas
and sme arms etc etc

i offer cardas 33ga Ofc internal wire as 1st choice bang for buck
and Super Ofc external cable with modified gold phonos

i can also offer some arm tube foam damping if wanted

and most importantly, with the job i normally set the bearings correctly
in these mass produced arms that time and attention was sadly missed

so its not just the wire upgrade its a whole rebuild that makes the differance

bw
j7

Johnnie, Have you ever worked on Micro Seiki arms and what did / do you think of them ? I've just had a vintage one mounted which looks almost mint and I wouldn't know about bearings etc