View Full Version : Shuggie's SL-1210 Blog Revived
Ammonite Audio
03-03-2009, 20:20
Well, Part 1 of my Blog has gone to God knows where, but I have been tinkering again. Before the forum got nuked, my SL-1210 was singing quite nicely, fitted with a TecnoarmA, 2M Black cartridge, Time Step PSU, and a combination of SRM silicone and SRM acrylic mats (mainly to deal with the Technics' platter lip). I had sent the standard Technics arm off to Audio Origami for a rewire, and was looking forward to trying it out, after reading Gromit's favourable reports in his blog.
The arm came back from Audio Origami, and after several days I fitted it to the SL-1210. Dismantling the underside was quite useful, in that I had not realised quite how much of the deck's bulk is down to the rubber base. I should add that my deck came already fitted with an OL armboard by its previous owner. Refitting the arm was easy, and I managed to get something like the correct VTA by adjusting the arm as low as it would go. I noticed that the arm structure was quite loose, unless the VTA locking lever was really rammed home tight. Fitting the 2M Black and the old Kontraounkt B into new Sumiko headshells was a breeze. Incidentally, these two cartridges have identical running heights - it looks like Ortofon think of everything!
So, to a bit of listening. I can only say that I was hugely disappointed, notwithstanding the fact that that the arm's wires were new. Instead of the easy breathing, open clarity of the Tecnoarm'd deck, there was a coloured, imprecise, plodding sound. Changing to the KB resulted in a more delicate presentation, but still frankly cr@p. One of the LPs that I like to use for comparison purposes is Mary Coughlan's "Tired and Emotional", and the guitar which opens "Nobody's Business" sounded like a kid's plastic toy. Not at all nice, and not something that I could live with. So, the TecnoarmA had to go back on.
I decided to play around a bit with a few variables, starting with the mounting of the OL armboard, which is held in place by Blu-Tak for the time being. I've always thought that a bit of arm decoupling is a good idea, and it costs nothing to try! Furthermore, I noticed that there are some convenient screw points in the alloy chassis to provide some decent support, so I left the rubber base off, but left the heavy plastic tray thing in place. Thus, the semi-naked SL-1210 is now sitting on 3 Stillpoints:
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s301/hugocass/Sl-1210/DSCF0397.jpg
The resulting sound is quite startlingly crisp and clear. There is a really wide soundstage but with decent location of instruments. This thing seems to work! Of course, time will tell, but I shall leave it for a while and evaluate it with a variety of LPs. I have some old Geza Anda Mozart piano concerto recordings on DG which do sort the musical sheep from the goats, so that will be next. But for now, Mary Coughlan is doing very nicely and that guitar sounds very real now.
And yes, those are Shun Mook discs on the CD transport:)
Ammonite Audio
04-03-2009, 20:57
A little update: the naked SL-1210 really does sing. The Mozart piano concertos do come across really well, complete with unmissable sounds of hammers hitting strings (utterly absent when the Technics arm was fitted). More importantly, there is the sense of hearing someone playing the piano, rather than hearing a piano. There is a lack of 'heft' to the sound, though, and I have a feeling that it needs some mass - maybe a Lenco-style CLD plinth would work well? Time to put the rubber base back on and do some more listening!
This is interesting. The thought just occurred to me that perhaps the degree of damping produced by the rubber base could be partially reduced by leaving out some of the many screws that attach it?
John
Ammonite Audio
08-03-2009, 10:56
Well, the rubber base went back on the SL-1210, minus the 3 screws fixing it to the alloy chassis points where I had previously located the Stillpoints, so the support system is exactly as before. The result is a mixed bag: some of the leanness of the 'naked' deck is corrected, but there is a feeling that a great deal of the 'life' has been sucked out of it. In short, I did not really want to listen to it very much.
So, I dug the old Kenwood KD-770D out of the spare bedroom and mounted the Tecnoarm/2M Black, to revisit my vinyl reference of the past year or so.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s301/hugocass/Sl-1210/DSCF0402.jpg
The KD-770D is rather less 'hi-fi' than the Technics, with a slightly softer presentation, but it has 'something' that the Technics lacks. That something is partly a degree of tonal colour, but it is musically rather more satisfying. Going to 'Nobody's Business' on the Mary Coughlan LP, the opening guitar has a real body resonance to it in comparison to the Technics; and moving to the Geza Anda Mozart, the piano is now presented with a nice impression of the instrument having a sounding board fitted. I'm not much good at describing musical flow etc, but if that means wanting to listen, then the Kenwood has it. The Technics is a more precise, mechanical performer in comparison: a pianola to a real piano performance, if you like. Maybe that's going a bit far, and there's certainly more mileage yet in this SL-1210 odyssey (eg the Paul Hynes PSU), but I have a feeling that the KD-770D will be staying. Once I get a service manual, the KD-770D is going off to Paul Hynes for some PSU magic, so the Technics will certainly be staying until the Kenwood comes back.
I have been following in Gromit's SL-1210 footsteps fairly closely, and it does look as though we have both arrived at similar conclusions.
Ali Tait
08-03-2009, 12:21
Interesting.I found the same when we listened to various decks at the last Owston.Marco's deck I thought sounded very precise,almost cd-like in a lot of ways,whereas Will's Slatedeck Garrard with homemade Schroeder arm had to my ears a much more organic,tonally colourful and "alive" sound.All personal preference to which you prefer of course.
Hi Shuggie,
Nice write-up and you make some interesting points. The 1210 is of course not the only good quality D/D turntable available, but it is the only one which is currently sold in the UK as a new product, hence why it is discussed so much here and elsewhere.
Whilst I'm in no position to question what you're hearing (and what Gromit is, too - and respect to him for going so far with his 1210) I can't help but suspect that the reason both of you aren't/weren't as 'sold' on the 1210 as many others and myself are is because neither of you used it/are using it with a tonearm that compliments the 1210's sonic signature. Both of you are/were using Rega derivatives, which in my experience are not a good match.
It's no coincidence I feel that those of us using Jelcos and SMEs, etc. (with complimentary cartridges) on our modified 1210s have achieved rather different results to what you're describing.
The bottom line though is that you get something which works in your system and which you consider plays your music to the highest standard; as such I wish you well and hope you find something that ticks all the necessary boxes :)
Marco.
Interesting.I found the same when we listened to various decks at the last Owston.Marco's deck I thought sounded very precise,almost cd-like in a lot of ways,whereas Will's Slatedeck Garrard with homemade Schroeder arm had to my ears a much more organic,tonally colourful and "alive" sound.All personal preference to which you prefer of course.
Hi Ali,
Indeed; and I completely agree. Changing the modified Technics arm though since then and fitting the Jelco 750 and 103SA cartridge has cured that and brought the 1210's presentation much closer to that of the Garrard - although of course Garrard's will do what Garrards will do nonetheless. Technics D/D turntables will always have a different sonic presentation: more accurate and less coloured, IMO.
It's also worth pointing out that much of the presentation and sonic signature you describe of Will's deck was down to the rare and rather special Ortofon SL-15 (low output version) cartridge he was using, and his excellent D.I.Y 12" tonearm - a total no contest against my (then) 9" Techy arm and DL-103R.
If you had been at the Chesterfest and heard the demo between my modifed Techy and Nick's Slatedeck SP10 (as reported here) you would have witnessed a much closer contest.
Marco.
Ali Tait
08-03-2009, 12:54
I'm not saying one is obviously better than the other,it's just personal preference.Your deck sounded very good,just a little clinical to my ears in comparison to the Garrard.Are you any further forward in having a slate plinth made for the Techie?
I'm not saying one is obviously better than the other,it's just personal preference.Your deck sounded very good,just a little clinical to my ears in comparison to the Garrard.
Agreed, although I considered Will's Garrard as better on the day by a significant margin. However like I said, it's a different ball game now since fitting the Jelco arm. Much of the "clinical" sound you refer to was down to the Technics tonearm I was using.
Are you any further forward in having a slate plinth made for the Techie?
Nope, matey, that one won't be happening until later in the year. I have other priorities at the moment - namely further improving my DAC (excellent as it is) to get my digital front end nearer to the sound quality I'm enjoying from vinyl. There are some component upgrades in the offing from Audiocom which I intend to take full advantage of.
How's that ballsy Chinese SE amp of yours doing? :)
Marco.
Dave Cawley
08-03-2009, 13:14
No particular system is outright best for all people and all music all of the time. To get much closer to the Garrard and Ortofon, a SL-1210 with SA-250ST and AT-OC9ML/II would be a more organic solution.
Dave
Ammonite Audio
08-03-2009, 13:14
Whilst I'm in no position to question what you're hearing (and what Gromit is, too - and respect to him for going so far with his 1210) I can't help but suspect that the reason both of you aren't/weren't as 'sold' on the 1210 as many others and myself are is because neither of you used it/are using it with a tonearm that compliments the 1210's sonic signature. Both of you are/were using Rega derivatives, which in my experience are not a good match.
Perhaps I should make a grotty plywood armboard for the SL-1210, like I have on the Kenwood, instead of using the Origin Live one, in order to fully compare like with like. That aside, I'm not sure that I agree with you about Rega-sourced arms, since I have used the Tecnoarm on a variety of decks and am quite familiar with its traits and performance; and I am certainly not going to be blowing a not inconsiderable wad of cash on a Jelco on the offchance that it can salvage some music from the SL-1210. You are, of course, using a cartridge that requires a very particular tonearm compatibility - my Ortofons are bang on spec for the Tecnoarm (indeed the 2M seems to have been designed with a Rega arm in mind).
I believe that what Gromit and I have found, independently, is that the Technics suffers from an inherent musical greyness, even though it is superficially very impressive in parts.
It would be very interesting to pitch a fettled SL-1210 against a Project Genie!
As I said above, I am not yet finished with the Technics, since I want to try the Paul Hynes PSU on it.
Dave Cawley
08-03-2009, 13:19
If you change the PSU, and that has to be done properly, you may want to change the motor dynamics too, this will change the character. The old Micro Seiki's had different dynamics as my newly acquired DQX-1000 is showing me!
No particular system is outright best for all people and all music all of the time. To get much closer to the Garrard and Ortofon, a SL-1210 with SA-250ST and AT-OC9ML/II would be a more organic solution.
Dave
Or an SA-750D and a DL-103SA, as you'll hear next week ;)
Marco.
Hi Shuggie,
Perhaps I should make a grotty plywood armboard for the SL-1210, like I have on the Kenwood, instead of using the Origin Live one, in order to fully compare like with like.
Why not? New information is always of benefit and of interest to people :)
That aside, I'm not sure that I agree with you about Rega-sourced arms, since I have used the Tecnoarm on a variety of decks and am quite familiar with its traits and performance; and I am certainly not going to be blowing a not inconsiderable wad of cash on a Jelco on the offchance that it can salvage some music from the SL-1210.
That's fair enough as it's your money. I'm not slating Rega-type arms on other decks, where they can work very well, but experience has told me that they don't form a good marriage with the 1210 - where Jelcos, SMEs and Roksan Nimas give better results to my ears and seemingly also to those of many others. I also think a Naim Aro would work very well on a 1210, should one consider that it offers value for money compared to a Nima.
You are, of course, using a cartridge that requires a very particular tonearm compatibility - my Ortofons are bang on spec for the Tecnoarm (indeed the 2M seems to have been designed with a Rega arm in mind).
Absolutely - no argument there.
I believe that what Gromit and I have found, independently, is that the Technics suffers from an inherent musical greyness, even though it is superficially very impressive in parts.
I believe that, too, as both of you have reported it most eloquently. However, in my opinion, the "musical greyness" you refer to is not an inherent trait of the deck itself but rather the sum of its constituent parts as used in your system. I can assure you that this signature is not present with the 1210 in my system. There will of course be numerous explanations for this, but experience strongly suggests that the tonearm I'm using, for example, is significantly responsible for the difference.
As an aside, I have yet to hear one of these revered PL-71s, so I can offer no comment on how it sounds, but at some point I would dearly love to do so in direct comparison to my 1210, either in my own system or in someone else's.
It would be very interesting to pitch a fettled SL-1210 against a Project Genie!
LOL. The least said about that the better! ;)
Marco.
Dave Cawley
08-03-2009, 14:16
No Marco, your solution is not to everyone's taste! It can't be the same as a 250 and OC9. It is different, it should be. Not everyone likes the same as you. My belief is that some would prefer the 250 and OC9, don't pressurise them into something different!! And please don't argue, it is different, not better!
If I'm constantly told that yours is the only system, I shall have to stop giving advice!
Dave
Oi, calm down... ;)
I was only offering alternative examples from your product range, as you seem to promote the 250ST and Audio Technica, mostly. I'm not pressurising anyone!
I believe that the 750 is the better arm, and by a reasonable margin. The cartridge of course is very much down to personal taste :)
Marco.
Dave Cawley
08-03-2009, 14:34
Yes, but........... The OC9 works better on the 250, trust me. Shuggie wanted a more organic sound and liked the Garrad and Ortofon, and if that's what he likes, then the 250 and OC9 will suite him down to the ground. Less money for me, but a happy bunny. Of course, others will prefer the 103SA and 750, and they do go together well, and I have a trick up my sleeve, no you will have to wait 3 weeks before I tell you.........
I believe in listening to people likes, dislikes and then making a suggestion based on that, not forever plugging my own preferred soultion. There is not a "do all" system that fits everyone.
Dave
I'm not "forever plugging my own solution" - merely expressing an opinion like you. I think you'll find my response to Shuggie was open-minded and considered.
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
08-03-2009, 14:50
Steady on Marco! I find Dave's points to be most helpful. I do use his Time Step PSU, and clearly he does know a thing or two about the Technics. He's quite right - we are all individuals with individual tastes, not to mention how we actually hear and perceive music.
......... you may want to change the motor dynamics too, this will change the character. The old Micro Seiki's had different dynamics as my newly acquired DQX-1000 is showing me!
Dave - can you explain a bit further?
LOL. The least said about that the better! ;)
Marco.
I was being serious about the Genie.
Dave and I had a misunderstanding over the word "organic" - now sorted :)
...we are all individuals with individual tastes, not to mention how we actually hear and perceive music.
Indeed so. This was the basis of what I wrote in my last reply to you #14 (and #6).
Marco.
Just to add something further on this subject...
One of the reasons why I think the Pioneer and Kenwood are reported to work so well (although I haven't heard this myself) is that all the 'bits' which make up the respective decks are high quality and have been designed and engineered to work together - it's that synergy thing again.
The problem with the 1210 is that the stock 'bits', outside of the motor unit itself, arguably aren't as good as those of the Pioneer or Kenwood, so one has to find not only better 'bits', but better 'bits' that synergise and work optimally together, as is the case with the other two decks mentioned.
I believe that some people have been more successful than others in this respect, which is obvious from the results reported. I can’t stress this enough: the performance of any turntable will always be reflected by the sum of its constituent parts, just as any hi-fi system is.
One thing's for sure though - when you get it absolutely right with the 1210 the results are very special... :)
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
09-03-2009, 07:11
I don't necessarily agree with you about stock bits on the Kenwood (and PL-71). The Kenwood's stock arm is laughable (even though some on audio forums have vociferously stated otherwise). It's plinth is a cheap box of thin and resonant chipboard, which conventional wisdom states should not work well, certainly in comparison with the Technics' alloy chassis. But, the fact remains that the Kenwood, modified only in terms of a Tecnoarm being fitted via a small bit of plywood and some blobs of Blu-Tak, sees off an (expensively) modified Technics when fitted with the same arm. I have a sneaking feeling that the Kenwood benefits by having a relatively low torque motor unit, and a larger and more massive platter.
While the Technics is a fine piece of kit for a modest amount of money, no amount of badgering or evangelical insistence is going to tell me that it's anything other than a well-engineered budget deck, with a limited ability to play music (rather than deliver Hi-Fi fireworks). The Time Step PSU does significant things to improve it, but when you consider what can be bought elsewhere for the same money, it does (in my opinion, of course) look like poorish value.
But, as I have stated already, I have not yet finished. The Kenwood has a small speed variation problem that will hopefully be resolved when Paul Hynes has fettled its power supplies for me. So, I will be keeping the Technics and I shall continue to try to bring it up to the musical standard that I expect. So, I will be interested to know more about the motor dynamics mod from Dave; and the Paul Hynes PSU that I'm getting soon may drag something out of the deck that the Time Step doesn't quite manage to do.
We are all individuals, and in this case we are clearly looking for different interpretations of audio nirvana.
Peter Stockwell
09-03-2009, 08:08
While the Technics is a fine piece of kit for a modest amount of money, ..., with a limited ability to play music (rather than deliver Hi-Fi fireworks). The Time Step PSU does significant things to improve it, but when you consider what can be bought elsewhere for the same money, it does (in my opinion, of course) look like poorish value.
Do you mean the Project Genie ?
I just installed a Squeezebox Classic at home, cost me 189€, and it certainly sounds, with the right files and TC7510 Dac, as satisfying as the Technics/SME/AT33PTG combo I have, and I don't have to get up to change songs. I think if I had only one source it would be the SB Classic, because you get internet radio, too. I listened to a bit of WWOZ from Nawlins sunday and was staggered by how good it sounds! (As good as a certain vintage sony tuner I once had!).
Anyway there is something that is niggling me with the Technics and I can't put my finger on it yet, and it's akin to the sound of someone banging a cardboard box instead of a richly toned bass drum.
I'm toying with the idea of doing the faceoff between the Kab ps1200 and the Timestep PSU. As I see it I can have them connectable, but not switched on, simultaneously to the deck and I would be able to decide which was best for me.
Dave Cawley
09-03-2009, 08:34
Hi Shuggie
The Time Step PSU is part of a system, it is not just a PSU. We have dissected and thoroughly analysed the SL-1200 in minute detail, that is why we can speak with authority and know "almost" everything! We analysed the built in regulator and realised that was a problem and we checked on almost every aspect, here is just a corner of our lab http://www.soundhifi.com/test.html . A power supply with a deliberately higher impedance might sound better, but much worse after the dynamic mods and the bearing mod? I regard the Timestep Sound Hi Fi mods as part of a system, and an evolving system at that.
I have here the original SL-120, a dozen SP-10's, a SP-15 and a SP-25. I have also looked very carefully at the Grand Prix Monaco. I understand Technics philosophy better than most and I'm in here for the long haul!
No one had ever considered the PLL dynamics before, why? too complex? no time? Whatever I don't know, but it is an essential part of what makes a direct drive sound like. The Micro Seiki DQX-1000 (Google images and check out http://www.my-micro.de/dqx1000.htm ) has significantly lower torque than the SL-1200 in standard form.
So what about the motor control on the SL-1200? After all these years it's now configured for DJ use and has as much torque applied as it can, and that leads to the PLL being close to the edge of instability as you can see here http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm (near the bottom of the page) . It's unlikely that the average person has intimate knowledge of feedback principles or PLL dynamics, and it's beyond this forum to teach it. You could just take my word as an ex Senior Design Engineer of Philips that I do. But basically the motor is running flat out, and what we do is to basically reduce the torque and smooth out the whole system. No good for scratching, but great for Hi Fi.
And then there is the main bearing and the platter, all in good time......... All the subsequent mods will only work as intended with the Time Step PSU, we know what the long term goal is. However today, as a new turntable, a modified SL-1200 takes some beating, there are several out there with SME 309's and very expensive cartridges and also several with the SA-750D/DL-103SA.
I could go on, but it's time for breakfast.............
Regards
Dave
Peter Stockwell
09-03-2009, 09:06
And then there is the main bearing and the platter, all in good time......... All the subsequent mods will only work as intended with the Time Step PSU, we know what the long term goal is.
All very intersting stuff! I feel temptation getting the better of me.
Ammonite Audio
09-03-2009, 09:36
So what about the motor control on the SL-1200? After all these years it's now configured for DJ use and has as much torque applied as it can, and that leads to the PLL being close to the edge of instability as you can see here http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm (near the bottom of the page) . It's unlikely that the average person has intimate knowledge of feedback principles or PLL dynamics, and it's beyond this forum to teach it. You could just take my word as an ex Senior Design Engineer of Philips that I do. But basically the motor is running flat out, and what we do is to basically reduce the torque and smooth out the whole system. No good for scratching, but great for Hi Fi.
Hi Dave
This is really what I wanted to hear. I have seen the details on your website, but now that you;ve explained it further I'm much more interested. I presume that the mod is something that you do, rather than entrust it to the DIYer? Maybe I need to drive down to Devon sometime!
Are you in a position to spill the beans on your platter and bearing work? My posts may indicate that I am close to giving up on the SL-1210, but it's such an enticingly compact and easy to operate proposition that I am keen to give it a chance, within reasonable cost boundaries.
Cheers
Shuggie
I'd be interested to see if Dave can do anything for the old SL110/120/150 decks, as the 120 and 150 are still cheap enough, if rather feedback prone (fantastic motor units though with smooth running and just enough torque.)
Hi Shuggie,
While the Technics is a fine piece of kit for a modest amount of money, no amount of badgering or evangelical insistence is going to tell me that it's anything other than a well-engineered budget deck, with a limited ability to play music (rather than deliver Hi-Fi fireworks). The Time Step PSU does significant things to improve it, but when you consider what can be bought elsewhere for the same money, it does (in my opinion, of course) look like poorish value.
No one is "badgering" you, nor are you being subjected to "evangelical insistence". I am only offering an alternative experience which is equally as valid as yours, but for some reason you're being rather defensive and somewhat confrontational. I am still convinced, based on said experience, that what you're hearing is largely to do with the sonic signature of your tonearm, not the turntable itself. I wish you luck though in finding what you're looking for :)
Marco.
Hi Dave,
But basically the motor is running flat out, and what we do is to basically reduce the torque and smooth out the whole system. No good for scratching, but great for Hi Fi.
That little snippet is most interesting! It certainly makes sense in principle. How does this tally though with the SP10, which if I'm correct in presuming, has greater torque than an SL-1200 or 1210?
Marco.
Dave Cawley
09-03-2009, 10:29
The SP-10 is not running flat out!
Dave
I'm toying with the idea of doing the faceoff between the Kab ps1200 and the Timestep PSU. As I see it I can have them connectable, but not switched on, simultaneously to the deck and I would be able to decide which was best for me.
That would be most interesting. I still haven't fully decided yet myself on that one :)
Dave,
Do you think you could set up a 1210 fitted with an SA-750D and DL-103SA with a Time Step PSU for when I come down, hopefully later in the week, and we could do an A/B/A comparison between my identical deck and yours fitted with the KAB PSU?
I think it's about time we put this one to bed :smoking:
If the Time Step wins (to my ears) then you'll have a sale!
Marco.
The SP-10 is not running flat out!
Ah, so it's the motor running flat out on the SL-1210 that's the hindering factor, not the amount of torque? I see, or am I simplifying things too much? :)
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
09-03-2009, 10:45
No one is "badgering" you, nor are you being subjected to "evangelical insistence". I am only offering an alternative experience which is equally as valid as yours, but you seem to want to be confrontational. I am still convinced, based on said experience, that what you're hearing is largely to do with the sonic signature of your tonearm, not the turntable itself. I wish you luck though in finding what you're looking for :)
Marco.
Perhaps my terminology was a bit strong, and I apologise for that. I am certainly not wishing to be confrontational; however you sometimes seem unable to accept that others may have different experiences and (most importantly) preferences to yours. As for the tonearm, I have used it on the Technics, Spacedeck and the Kenwood KD-770D, so I'm well acquainted with its character (or lack of), and I don't believe that it's the issue here. It's a whole lot better than the standard Technics arm!
What I'm looking for is an utterly fiddle-free, pain-free turntable that plays music as well as the Spacedeck did, or indeed a Linn, or a Project Genie;). The Technics may well be that beast, but clearly not yet. Dave's points made above have interested me greatly, and now that I understand more about it, I will have the motor dynamics mod done. It's a relatively small price to pay to give it another chance.
This is a good-natured forum and as a result the one that I prefer to inhabit, but being good natured requires understanding. All I have done is report my own experiences, which chime with some others', but not with all. I understand that your experience of the SL-1210, with different arm/cart etc and within the context of a system quite different from mine, is very positive. But it's not my experience. Therein lies the fun and the power of the online community to discuss and occasionally debate such things. I sincerely hope that this blog is of some use to those reading it.
Dave Cawley
09-03-2009, 10:53
Marc, it's not just the PSU, this is the very point I'm trying to get across. And yes, as I said, it's the motor running flat out that is an issue.
With the house in many pieces, I can't demo anything right now, I even get brick dust in my porridge.......
Dave
Hi Shuggie,
Perhaps my terminology was a bit strong, and I apologise for that.
No problem. Successfully communicating your intended meaning is always a challenge on forums! :)
It was this bit I was struggling with in particular regarding the 1210 being in your words:
anything other than a well-engineered budget deck, with a limited ability to play music (rather than deliver Hi-Fi fireworks)
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't for one second doubt that this is what you're hearing, so please don't think I'm rubbishing your valid experiences in any way, but when I read stuff like that I can't do anything else but shake my head strongly in disbelief as it's completely contrary to what I'm hearing with my own modified 1210. And anyone who heard the 1210 through my Croft preamp and TD Copper valve amp I brought to the recent bake-off would I'm sure have felt the same way.
Look at it from my point of view for a second...
Apart from the fact that I've owned some expensive turntables in the past costing many times that of my modified 1210 (I can list them if you wish) and the 1210 outperforms them all by a significant margin, I've recently compared my deck to two very good SP10s (considered by many to be one of the best turntables ever made), one fitted with a £1.8k SMEV tonearm and dedicated Time Step PSU, not to mention various other highly respected Garrards and Thorens TD124s - and my 1210 has compared very favourably with all of them; the difference in many cases being negligible, boiling down basically to the personal preference of a different sonic presentation rather than any one deck being unquestionably superior.
Could that possibly happen in a month of Sundays if the results I were getting were the same as yours? :smoking:
Furthermore, Dave Cawley himself is on record as saying (and I agree based on my listening experience) that one of his modified SL-1200s is, I quote: "95% as good as an SP10", so if it's 95% as good as such a superb T/T as an SP10, what does that tell you?
Quite simply, there has to be valid reasons that explain the huge dichotomy between what you're reporting about the 1210 and me, which must be to do with much more than simply personal preference.
I think it's important that both of our observations are challenged and fully investigated in order that potential buyers of a modified 1210 are in possession of as much valid information as possible to allow them to make an informed decision and that they're not put off by any incomplete information. That's not me being "unable to accept that others may have different experiences", but rather me being determined that others have as much information as possible in which to help them make the right decision and don't make a mistake that they might later regret.
Do you see what I'm getting at? :)
Marco.
Marc, it's not just the PSU, this is the very point I'm trying to get across. And yes, as I said, it's the motor running flat out that is an issue.
With the house in many pieces, I can't demo anything right now, I even get brick dust in my porridge.......
Okay dokes, no worries. But it's something we'll have to put to bed sooner rather than later as I want to know which PSU works better (for me). I'm sure other people are also curious to know the results :)
Marco.
Dave Cawley
09-03-2009, 11:52
Marco, once again, it isn't a case of "which PSU", it's the holistic view, where the sum of the parts can be greater than their individual worth.
Talking about Organic, yesterday I had organic tomatoes with brick dust, not very holistic at all.............
Dave
I competely agree, Dave. But I still need to know which PSU I prefer from my own point of view in the context of my deck and system. The "what if?" factor needs to be resolved :)
Organic tomatoes are lovely used in Bruschetta - sliced Italian crusty loaf toasted and then topped with said tomatoes, garlic, chopped fresh basil, and drissled with extra virgin olive oil... Nom nom nom!
Marco.
I have to agree with Marco here in that comments referring to the 1210 as sounding like a budget deck just don't tally with what I'm hearing and suggest that the synergy between that set of components is just all wrong.
What I hear with my combo of uprated 1210 and partnering components is a deck that comfortably beats the Roksan Xerxes / SMEIV / AT OC9 / EAR 834P system I used to own, and blows away the more recent Strathclyde STD-305M / Michell TecnoArm(A) / Grado Prestige Gold I had more recently. In fact, the only component I can definitely attribute greyness to is the Michell arm, still suffering from some of its Rega origins. I know this because I used to run a different arm in the Strathclyde (SME III, which was soft but not grey).
Current deck, for the sake of completion: SL-1210 with TimeStep and motor dynamics mod / Jelco SA250ST / Denon DL-160 / Sound Hi-Fi mat / Gram Amp 2SE. I have also removed some internal plastic trays for further micro-detail. It sounds alive, dynamic, detailed, uncoloured and compellingly listenable.
Aside from personal preferences having perhaps a significant influence in these differing perceptions that I am reading (with great interest, thank you all), I am left wondering as to what contribution is being made by differing supports/footers.
Without your experience of different decks Martin, I would have to say that my experience of the TecnoarmA on my heavily modded P2 would not be something I would describe as "grey", not with a DL-110, not with a DL-103 and definitely not with the DL-301 I am presently using.
The P2 is running a Groovetracer platter and subplatter and fitted with SRM silent base and bearing and motor damping rings, motor end bearing and of course the Tecnoarm.
I also use a 5mm Achromat and michell clamp on the acrylic platter as I found that an improvement over the bare acrylic(with or without the clamp).
It most definitely seems there are better and not so good combinations of TT & arm even as there better and not so good combinations of cartridge and arm.
I repeat my curiosity WRT supports of one variety or another and their effects.
Tony - I think the turntable / arm / mat interface is critical now that Dave Cawley has showed me the error of my (previous) ways. The SDS Isoplatmat made the deck sound 'grey' despite the fact that it seemed to damp the platter very well. The Audiophile mat doesn't appear to damp the platter as well, until you put a record on it, that is.
I also forgot that I'm now using Isonoe isolation feet, which have improved the deck's lightness of feet across complex material.
~ snip ~
I also forgot that I'm now using Isonoe isolation feet, which have improved the deck's lightness of feet across complex material.
Martin,
that was exactly where I was coming from WRT the supports/feet - I am suspicious of the effect of the stillpoints in that they may have contributed to the reduced "weight" - again though these things often seem to be dependent on the underlying platform as to their overall effect.
It seems somewhat as though some degree of rigidity is necessary for weight & heft and a balance of movement to allow high frequency resonance disippation. :confused:
Hi Martin,
Tony - I think the turntable / arm / mat interface is critical now that Dave Cawley has showed me the error of my (previous) ways. The SDS Isoplatmat made the deck sound 'grey' despite the fact that it seemed to damp the platter very well. The Audiophile mat doesn't appear to damp the platter as well, until you put a record on it, that is.
I completely agree, as that's what I've also found since removing the SDS and using Dave's mat (a trimmed Herbie's). The latter doesn't damp the platter as well but contributes to a far better, more musical sound. And when a record is placed on the mat any remaining ringing is then fully dampened.
I have to agree with Marco here in that comments referring to the 1210 as sounding like a budget deck just don't tally with what I'm hearing and suggest that the synergy between that set of components is just all wrong.
This is exactly the point I was making to Shuggie, and it's worth repeating again so it sinks in:
The overall performance/sonic signature/music-making ability (select whichever you wish to apply) of a turntable is reflected by the sum of its constituent parts.
It's all about synergy or 'holism', as Dave Cawley puts it. There could be a multitude of reasons why Shuggie is hearing the "musical greyness" with his 1210 which aren't connected to the deck itself.
Like Tony says, supports/feet, and how a given turntable reacts with those is significant, as are any number of other interfaces which contribute to the final effect we hear when the stylus hits the groove: the mat used, the tonearm and cartridge selected, the phono stage and how successfully all those bits gel together, not to mention the sonic signature of the rest of the system all play a big part. That's why it's important to consider all the variables and not simply focus on one part of the equation as being the sole cause of any particular effect heard.
However, based on experience, I strongly suspect that the primary cause of the "musical greyness" Shuggie reports is down to the deck showcasing (in all its glory) the tonal characteristics and sonic signature of his Rega-derived tonearm. Experience tells me that the 1210, when driven by a high quality PSU, such as the Time Step or KAB, acts simply as a top-notch motor unit, and thus neutral sonic platform, from which then to hear the tonal and musical characteristics of the partnering arm and cartridge. Therefore, when one uses a tonearm and/or cartridge which exhibits a particular sonic signature, that is effectively what is revealed upon listening.
As I've said before, it's no coincidence I feel that both Richard (Gromit) and Shuggie have reported very similar results with the 1210, musically, as a result of using similar Rega-derived arms despite again both reporting excellent results in other areas. Richard in particular went out of his way to get the 1210 to work (for him), and like I said kudos to him for having the patience and determination to go the extra mile, but ultimately I feel that he got everything right apart from the final part of the jigsaw: his choice of tonearm, as appears also to be the case with Shuggie.
The reason why Martin and I, and Peter, and many others have got it 'right' with our modified 1210s is because the synergy is right. Quite simply, one can only appreciate, musically, the sum of the constituent parts if the constituent parts are ‘right’ in the first place... :)
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
10-03-2009, 14:05
I would add that Dave's 3.7mm audiophile mat doesn't give enough range of VTA adjustement with the SME IV, and I would imagine, the 309, because the arm rest gets awfully close to the deck. I've just obtained a 6.1mm Herbies Way Excellent II mat that gives me 2.4mm of extra adjustement range.
My stand is most likely not properly designed ;) it's a wooden skeletal tripod stand with SDS isolating squares under a nice granite slab. The SDS squares are ver good here.
I've got standard spikes into RDC buttons to the hardwood over concrete floor, and the feet on the TT are Soundhifi feet ones. I was looking at other choices but haven't gone for the isonoes, yet. The blurb says the harder the surface the better they work. Can't get much harder than granite.
Had shivers all over with the Steve Young version of "The Night they drove Old Dixie down".
Peter,
Have you found any difference in the sound you're getting now with the thicker mat (VTA correctness aside) compared to the thinner one before?
The reason I ask is that, according to Dave, and I can understand where he's coming from, the thinner mat is the better solution as it mates more closely with the record and platter to give its desired effect.
The thicker the mat, the less the record is able to be 'bonded' to the mat and platter, as you're introducing more of an interface. One also has to watch that things aren't over-damped, which is partly why I think the stock thick rubber mat doesn't work.
The trouble is of course, it's a difficult effect for you to analyse because the chances are the sonic gains you've achieved from being able to set VTA correctly will likely outweigh any negative effect of the thicker mat.
Any thoughts on this?
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
10-03-2009, 15:17
Marco,
I'd concur with Dave's observations, but I preferred being able to adjust VTA to my liking. Steve at Audiolabs asserts that sonic differences are minimal or non existant. I'd say the relatively low platter of the SL1200/SL1210 makes getting VTA right dificult to acheive. I was able to raise the arm a touch with the 6.1mm mat. Maybe an intermediate size is better overall with the arm/cartridge I'm running. But since I got hit for 37€ of import duty plus the $30 of shipping I'm not going to buy another size to find out.
Ammonite Audio
10-03-2009, 15:21
Marco
The essential point that I have been trying to make, is that in my opinion the SL-1210 is (as far as I have taken it) no great music maker, certainly in comparison to other 'tables that I have owned, with or without a Rega-derived arm. That is my opinion - if I heard your system I may well find your own SL-1210 to be similarly limited, and if so that would be down to my individual preference. There is so much more to this music reproduction lark than just the mechanical bits: the brain is an important component too. That may explain why I cannot listen to Podium speakers, or horns of any kind, and find the revered big Tannoys to be harsh enough to strip the plating off an Oscar at one hundred paces. That's me, and I understand that others are different.
Now, having stated that, I have a suspicion that Dave's motor dynamics mod may bring the SL-1210 to where I wish it to be, so I am going to have it done, as the incremental cost is modest enough to be worth the effort. While I'm there I may get his armboard too, as the OL one is a PITA.
So, please wait out for a further episode in this interesting odyssey.
Shuggie
I completely agree, Shuggie. No-one's saying that you're not entitled to your opinion, just not to write off the 1210 as "no great music maker" on account that you may, perhaps (humour me and entertain the notion) not yet have heard it with the right arm :)
It's the "as far as I've taken it" bit above that, IMO, is crucial to keep in mind.
My view, based on experience, is that there's not much 'not to like' about the 1210, sonically, once one fits a quality external PSU. The motor unit itself has little 'sound' or overt character of its own and simply turns the platter round consistently at the right speed (which surprisingly many decks, particularly low-mass belt-drives, fail to achieve); any 'character' or sonic signature heard when playing music is mainly down to the partnering arm, cartridge, and other ancillary items, and of course the rest of the system it's being used with.
I await further instalments of your odyssey with much interest! :cool:
Marco.
Peter,
I'd concur with Dave's observations, but I preferred being able to adjust VTA to my liking. Steve at Audiolabs asserts that sonic differences are minimal or non existant. I'd say the relatively low platter of the SL1200/SL1210 makes getting VTA right dificult to acheive.
I completely agree. The low height of the platter on the 1210 is a PITA, especially when using a low-bodied cartridge. Feel for us 103 users! :eyebrows:
I think your AT-33PTG is better in that respect. I also agree about the mat - it's not important enough to worry about, but I thought I'd make the point for the benefit of others who may be considering doing the same thing.
As an aside, on a different subject (the oft-mentioned PL-71), I think that it would be very interesting what results were obtained by fitting the supplied arm to a 1210, as my feeling is that a significant part of the Pioneer's reported musicality is down to its tonearm (I believe of Acos Lustre origin). I suspect that it has similar sonic characteristics to the Jelco 750. The Pioneer also has a superior PSU (more heavy duty than on the 1210 as standard) but of course one can address this on the Technics with the off-board KAB or Time Step PSU options.
Marco.
Dave Cawley
10-03-2009, 16:22
Guys
I will have a wonderful retro solution for VTA soon! so don't sell your old mats yet...........
And our mat is not "a trimmed Herbie's" it was made from scratch, especially for me and the SL-1200 my Herbie himself!!
Regards
Dave
Spectral Morn
10-03-2009, 17:56
Is it possible that the large differences in experience you guys are all having could be not just system synergy issues but you all have your TT's resting on very different platforms....could the Technics be fussy about what it sits on ? I have encountered this sort of thing in the past with some TT's performing better on some surfaces than others.
Just a thought...I have no experience of the Technics but so far this possibility has not been mentioned by anyone.
Regards D S D L---Neil :)
Interesting thought, Neil. Mine is on two levels of sprung isolation - Solid Tech system rack with sprung feet, then Isonoes on the deck itself. Very different from the solid/rigid/ballast approach.
Neil,
Is it possible that the large differences in experience you guys are all having could be not just system synergy issues but you all have your TT's resting on very different platforms....could the Technics be fussy about what it sits on ? I have encountered this sort of thing in the past with some TT's performing better on some surfaces than others.
Just a thought...I have no experience of the Technics but so far this possibility has not been mentioned by anyone.
Ahem, from moi this morning (and Tony before that):
Like Tony says, supports/feet, and how a given turntable reacts with those is significant, as are any number of other interfaces which contribute to the final effect we hear when the stylus hits the groove...
;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
10-03-2009, 23:52
What I was suggesting was that while different forms of support have been mentioned during this thread, and there have been a number of approaches used. Is there a consensus as to what leads to what effect? Could it be that the reason there is so much difference of opinion on the sound, could be because of this one aspect, of which none of you seem to be using exactly the same solution. Its just a thought and while it might not be as simple as that...probably.... it might be a bigger factor than what has been allowed for...perhaps.
If you were all using the same supports/isolation etc then this could be ruled out as a factor. Of course same arms and carts would be needed as well to rule out the TT, and focus could be switched to the system matching as a factor.
Regards D S D L---Neil
I think you're right, Neil. The type of support a turntable sits on will have an impact on how it sounds, but I suspect that the discrepancy in performance reported is coming from another direction.
Marco.
I suspect that the discrepancy in performance reported is coming from another direction
I suspect that too. I strongly feel that the arm makes a significant difference just based on clues from those who have had success with the 1210 and those who haven't. It seems that the Technics original arm and Rega-based arms don't get the best out of the deck, but Jelco, SME and a couple of others do. The cartridge used appears to influence things less but the mat is critical.
Peter Stockwell
11-03-2009, 15:21
The cartridge used appears to influence things less but the mat is critical.
Dave's (SoundHifi) Feet 1 and Audiophile mat are great products that make a big difference for not much outlay, so I concur with that.
Ammonite Audio
24-05-2009, 10:39
My Paul Hynes PSU is now inching through the Royal Mail, so the next stage of my DD record player experiment is looming. Paul has made up the PSU with an adjustment pot, so that it can power both the Technics SL-1210 and my old Kenwood KD-770D.
It will be very interesting to hear the difference between the decks, when powered in the same way, and fitted with the same arm/cartridge combination. I already know in my heart which I prefer, but remain open-minded about how much the Technics can be helped along. I need to book an appointment with Dave for the Motor Dynamics mod, though.
Ammonite Audio
03-07-2009, 14:06
The change of PSU on the Kenwood has brought about such a profound change in its character, that a total re-evaluation of it and the SL-1210 is now warranted. I'm shocked at how much leaner and cleaner is the Kenwood's overall presentation with the Paul Hynes PSU; also its calm precision in comparison with its former self, which was in retrospect rather cuddly in character - certainly its speed stability was nothing special, now sorted by the new PSU. Now I think I can hear the effects of its fairly resonant chipboard plinth - that's a cue for me to order a router from Screwfix and start making a new plinth from bits of oak worktop left over from the kitchen rebuild.
So, bearing all that in mind, today will see the SL-1210 brought back into play, with TimeStep and Paul Hynes PSUs. I shall report back on the differences between the PSUs and also on the general musical performance of the two decks (both fitted with the same Tecnoarm/2M Black). A friend has a new Raven One, with a Graham tonearm and posh Transfiguration cartridge, so a comparison with that in due course will be most interesting. A bake-off against a PL-71 would be fun, too, if anyone is up for that.
Hi Shuggie, I'd be up for a comparison at some stage. My PL-71 is starting to sound very good plus I have (I hope) a KD750 on it's way to me...all 17Kg of it! I hope it a) arrives and b) in one piece! :)
My biggest experiences regarding supports have been with the LP12. Back in the eighties, the Sound Org table and wall shelf was the way to go, the springy top board adding a further "musicality" to the sonic picture. Linn, who should know about these things, having the masters to compare, used to recommend the Ikea Lack table instead (especially with the lower laminate carefully cut away). Later on, as the LP12 corrected itself in the bass, the Audiotech support was preferred and I must admit to very much liking this neat little wall shelf...
The NAS decks spoiled me though, as HiFi Dave will testify as he conducted my "initiation" away from the "Terrible Two." The LP12 was carefully set up on the correct support and the Spacedeck just sat on a wide melamine shelf along with a NAS Omega Point, a Rega and a Gyrodeck. Both decks had K9's and the Spacedeck/RB300/K9 annihilated the LP12/Ittok/K9 in all the things Linnies hold so dear and the base that was supplied with nineties onwards models were there as much for show as anything else IMO.
Dunno about the Techie though, although everyone who's fettled one has replaced or modified the footing arrangements, as I shall do with my 150 when funds permit (or I can find a fourth Audioquest Sorbothane jobbie to mate with the other three I found...:)
I'd definitley say that all 70's DD's will need VERY careful siting and consideration of mats, as decent isolation and record support wasn't part of the deal back then - Technics supporting their decks on cotton threads suspended from the ceiling to get their rumble specs, rather than improve the feet and load the plinths at first..
Re KD750 arm... HIFi Choice found it less resonant than many of the detachable headshell alternatives, although they found the horizontal friction higher than average. I have one in need of restoration (and a ball or two in the races - there's "hundreds...") and a counterweight re-think. I love the easily lockable "chuck" which holds the arm at the correct height.
The KD750 arm used a large rubber bushing for the counterweight within which was a piano wire like tie between the bearing housing and rear stub. Mine has long gone, so any restoration will have to entail a bolt and washer through the centre of the bushing as everyone else does. The service manual goes into HUGE depth as to the arms concentricity of bearing races and the effect on arm/cart resonances with this method of counterweight decoupling. I'd send mine to Jonny at Audio Origami, but the R200, which is in far better condition, takes preference at the mo...
You'll have to get the service details from Vinyl Engine as the file is too large to upload, but pages 27 to 38 go into the arm in incredible depth and most of it seems to make intelligent sense to me...
I'd definitley say that all 70's DD's will need VERY careful siting and consideration of mats, as decent isolation and record support wasn't part of the deal back then - Technics supporting their decks on cotton threads suspended from the ceiling to get their rumble specs, rather than improve the feet and load the plinths at first..
The PL-71 is a different fettle of kish, it has sprung feet that are quite compliant and you can rotate them to get the springs in sync bounce, which Gromit is convinced makes an audible difference. Well I haven't heard that difference so his ears must be better than mine. But I can tell you if the springs are removed or shorted out by spikes it kills the music flow and makes it quite sterile.
Anyway Gromit also tried some sprung feet with the Techy and said it was an improvement.
EDIT - Are forgot to say the point of the post - with the springs bouncing well you can basically stand the PL-71 on what you like. There is small differences thats all.
Ammonite Audio
03-07-2009, 16:16
I have (I hope) a KD750 on it's way to me...all 17Kg of it! I hope it a) arrives and b) in one piece! :)
So, your house is slowly filling up with old record players! This one should put the cat amongst the pigeons, as it were! I thought that the Kenwoods all used a similar motor block and control circuit, but looking at http://www.vinylengine.com/library/kenwood/kd-750.shtml it's clear that the KD-750 is quite a bit more sophisticated than my KD-770D.
I look forward to hearing your decks, particularly if I can get permission to use one of our classrooms for a bake-off. More details on that to come, but if it does go ahead, it will have to be a strictly ticketed affair, because of access restrictions to the site.
Richard, any idea what the sprung feet were? The SL150 has a plastic base to which the "air-cushion" feet are attached, so this may not be the solution for my deck, although the 150 feet seem "springier" than the supposedly identical ones that were fitted to the other SL models of the period (13/14/1500 mk1's)...
The KD750 apparently had a motor servo problem which afflicted the review model I understand and the deck my arm came from was binned for similar reasons (am I right Paul, if you're reading this?).
Good luck anyway.
P.S. A shame that t'internet has got hold of the PL71 now, as a couple of years ago, one could have bought one VERY cheaply indeed I suspect ;)
Richard, any idea what the sprung feet were? The SL150 has a plastic base to which the "air-cushion" feet are attached, so this may not be the solution for my deck, although the 150 feet seem "springier" than the supposedly identical ones that were fitted to the other SL models of the period (13/14/1500 mk1's)...
The KD750 apparently had a motor servo problem which afflicted the review model I understand and the deck my arm came from was binned for similar reasons (am I right Paul, if you're reading this?).
Good luck anyway.
P.S. A shame that t'internet has got hold of the PL71 now, as a couple of years ago, one could have bought one VERY cheaply indeed I suspect ;)
I wouldn't worry too much, the Dual direct drives are *very* underated. The Techy Gromit had and was modifying to see if he could get it up to or past the PL-71 was a new 1210. The feet he used were not compression ones like these they were in extension as they were attached to the side of the foot, three in each foot. I think they are a well known accessory but I forget the name. It will be in the archive here. He only had three of them so that was all he used.
Surfice it to say the 1210 was sold and he still has the PL-71 though he said it got quite close after fitting the external power supply.
I have got three PL-71's, as I say, and another one in bits for a slate plinth project. So if you get desperate I will listen to pleas.
Ammonite Audio
03-07-2009, 20:15
The Technics is back on the rack and playing Sheffield Steel. Rather well, it seems! Exact comparisons with the Kenwood are compromised by the infamous platter lip and the need to use a different mat - SRM silicone, as opposed to SRM acrylic.
So why am I apparently enjoying the Technics now, when previously I found it to be a rather mechanical and drab sounding thing? Well, the answer is in the power supply. I deliberately started off this listening session with the Paul Hynes SR3 supply, adjusted to 21v to suit the Technics. The sound was immediately dynamic, open, propulsive, organic and enjoyable. After a while, I changed over PSUs to the TimeStep and sat back to listen to the same album. Back came the old mechanical sound, and Joe Cocker's voice changed as though he was suffering from a cold, sounding somewhat distant in comparison, and noticeably softer. The difference, to my ears, is that the deck is playing music when fed by the Paul Hynes PSU, but cannot apparently be totally arsed to do its best with the TimeStep. Sorry Dave!
The TimeStep PSU brought about a huge improvement over the standard deck, so God only knows how awful it would sound if I returned it to standard fettle. Even though I am an advocate of Paul Hynes' products, I am genuinely surprised by the margin by which it betters the TimeStep.
So, a fun weekend beckons, dragging out long unheard albums in order to give this comparison some weight.
On the subject of platter mats for the Technics, what do folks recommend? I would try Dave Cawley's Mat1, but I'm not prepared to hazard that sort of money (I might go as far as Achromat money, but no further). I have another SRM acrylic mat coming, and will attempt to grind a bit off its edge to make it sit properly; alternatively I could always grind off the platter lip - has anyone done that? I have tried the standard Technics mat, cork and even an old Lenco mat, but none really floated my boat. The SRM acrylic mat works reasonably well sat on top of the SRM silicone mat, but I'd rather just have a single mat. Interestingly, the SRM acrylic mat only works well on the Kenwood when stuck to the platter with very thin adhesive tape, but that's a bas***d to remove, hence buying a new one. Anyway, thoughts, experienecs and recommendations would be appreciated.
Dave Cawley
03-07-2009, 21:15
Well, my PSU is designed to work well with Jelco and SME, can't win them all! BTW, why did you have to return the other PSU?
Also I'm not a fan of the GCHP, so I think it's a holistic issue. Hence the brilliant Hi Fi World and Tone Audio reviews that both used SME ?
Regards
Dave
Before I comment (later) what's a GCHP? :scratch:
Marco.
He means the PS Audio GCPH, as I use.
Ah I see. Cheers, Martin.
I'll come back to this later, as I'm a little busy at the moment :)
One quick thing I would say though is it's definitely a synergy issue. I haven't heard the Paul Hynes, but if the Time Step in my system sounded as Shuggs has described it'd be in the bloody bin, not making truly superb sounding music with my Techy!
The good thing though is Shuggs seems happy with the result he's getting overall now, which is the main thing :smoking:
Marco.
So, your house is slowly filling up with old record players! This one should put the cat amongst the pigeons, as it were! I thought that the Kenwoods all used a similar motor block and control circuit, but looking at http://www.vinylengine.com/library/kenwood/kd-750.shtml it's clear that the KD-750 is quite a bit more sophisticated than my KD-770D.
I look forward to hearing your decks, particularly if I can get permission to use one of our classrooms for a bake-off. More details on that to come, but if it does go ahead, it will have to be a strictly ticketed affair, because of access restrictions to the site.
Yep! I'm up to 4 now...SP10...G99...PL71...Some un-badged belt drive TT I use for 78's and now the KD750 (I hope)...I say I hope because I bought the PL71 two weeks after the KD750 and it's arrived but the 750 has not... :confused:
Funny thing is I *thought* I was buying a 770...but alcohol and Ebay do not mix...especially when you find the cost of shipping approaches that of the deck you've just bought!
Let me know about any bake off, I have quite a selection now ;)
Ammonite Audio
04-07-2009, 01:28
Well, my PSU is designed to work well with Jelco and SME, can't win them all! BTW, why did you have to return the other PSU?
Also I'm not a fan of the GCHP, so I think it's a holistic issue. Hence the brilliant Hi Fi World and Tone Audio reviews that both used SME ?
Regards
Dave
All I can say is that Paul Hynes designs his PSUs to work well, and to be unconditionally stable in any application. As for the return, it was due to a fault with my own multimeter, and nothing at all to do with the Paul Hynes PSU:doh:
Reviewers have personal preferences (and prejudices) as well, do they not? I preferred he GCPH over my old Dino/Dino+ when I had my old Heavied Spacedeck/Spacearm/Wave Mechanic. The qualities that it displayed a few years ago still please me.
......One quick thing I would say though is it's definitely a synergy issue. I haven't heard the Paul Hynes, but if the Time Step in my system sounded as Shuggs has described it'd be in the bloody bin, not making truly superb sounding music with my Techy!
The good thing though is Shuggs seems happy with the result he's getting overall now, which is the main thing :smoking:
Marco.
I'm not saying at all that the Time Step sounded bad, in fact I think I've been quite clear that it does significantly improve the standard SL-1210's performance (and Dear God, it does need a helping hand;)). I am saying that another PSU which is designed on totally different principles betters the Time Step, and seems (subject to a lot more listening) to go a long way to addressing my previous indifference to the SL-1210.
We could probably argue for months and years over this particular synergy issue (and I will never let you grind me down over Rega-based arms), but this largely boils down to personal taste. I may even actively dislike your deck's sound if I heard it; however I find it interesting that the Paul Hynes PSU has, in my system, apparently elevated the SL-1210 in the musical rankings, while simultaneously exposing weaknesses in the Kenwood, previously masked by the crude standard supply circuit. The Kenwood benefitted from the Pual Hynes PSU in a number of ways, not least overall stability and precision, but cleaning the window brought other issues into clear view.
And yes, I am encouraged by the results so far, which is all that matters. Others may find my reflections useful, which is after all the benefit of online forums such as AoS.
Dave Cawley
04-07-2009, 07:49
Hi Shuggie
I'm not grinding you down at all. But no Hi Fi product works well in "any application". Cleary your PSU and Rega based arm is what you like, and that is good for you. Others including Hi Fi World and Tone Audio like the Timestep PSU and SME/Jelco and that is good for them. When my new bearing comes out everything will be up in the air again?
If we all liked the same thing life would be a bit boring!
Because I have the choice, I use a SME V and SP-10 with Timestep PSU for my main system and the SL-1200 for my second system.
I may even take a brand new SME 30 (£12.9K) and modify that in the winter?
One day I may have something completely different like a L-07 if I could find one, but then the search would be on for a PSU, arm and cartridge that "I" liked.
And after that??
Regards
Dave
But no Hi Fi product works well in "any application".
I completely agree, Dave.
Shuggs, it's good that you're enjoying the results you've achieved with your chosen PSU and tonearm, not least because the addition of the Hynes PSU has allowed you to better appreciate the talents of the Techy, and like you say, alternative experiences may be of help to others :)
However, the only way we'll fully 'get' where each other is coming from, is not by going round in circles debating here, but through listening.
So......... I'm up for the bake-off you mentioned anytime you fancy it :cool:
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
04-07-2009, 08:57
Hi Shuggie
I'm not grinding you down at all. But no Hi Fi product works well in "any application". Cleary your PSU and Rega based arm is what you like, and that is good for you. Others including Hi Fi World and Tone Audio like the Timestep PSU and SME/Jelco and that is good for them. When my new bearing comes out everything will be up in the air again?
If we all liked the same thing life would be a bit boring!
Because I have the choice, I use a SME V and SP-10 with Timestep PSU for my main system and the SL-1200 for my second system.
I may even take a brand new SME 30 (£12.9K) and modify that in the winter?
One day I may have something completely different like a L-07 if I could find one, but then the search would be on for a PSU, arm and cartridge that "I" liked.
And after that??
Regards
Dave
Yes, it would be rather dull if we all liked the same things, and agreed on everything! I know that Marco will not let go of the Rega arm thing, and it's fun to goad him on that point occasionally, but actually nobody is an expert through and through, and maybe some humility sprinkled with understanding of others' viewpoints would make this a better place to lurk. I do get the impression that there are certain "Home Ground" topics here on which dissent is barely tolerated; however it is heartening to see that RD has been welcomed back, and I look forward to his particular blend of genuine expertise, wit and passion on AoS.
On the subject of a power supply, surely a really well-designed power supply should and can work well in any application. I know that the Paul Hynes designs have been developed over many years, and the SR3 has been shown by Paul to be unconditionally stable in every application within its overall design envelope. The same cannot necessarily be said of designs based around commercial IC regulator chips. I can only go on what he has told me, and if he wishes to comment himself, I'm sure he will.
This is a wholly different argument than from that of synergy between bits of audio equipment, where clearly there is a lot that one component can do to upset another. It is possible to build a more perfect power supply than one base on 3-pin regulators, but the costs of doing so would be significant, once translated and magnified into retail prices. Paul sells direct to the customer, so I am happy to get the best linear power supply technology at a very reasonable price.
Perhaps HFW or David Price would care to try my Paul Hynes PSU with his Technics?
However, the only way we'll fully 'get' where each other is coming from, is not by going round in circles debating here, but through listening.
So......... I'm up for the bake-off you mentioned anytime you fancy it
Marco.
Quite so, Marco! But do try to be more understanding of others, and occasionally step out from behind the lectern;) You are of course welcome to the putative bake-off, which will probably be sometime in August.
Nice one, Shuggie. Keep me in the loop :)
I am always understanding of others, but at the same time, if someone reports almost diametrically opposed results to those I've obtained with equipment I use and know inside out, I'm perfectly entitled to challenge them ;)
We are all entitled to our opinions. I don't like Rega tonearms very much and I offer no apology for that.
AOS is a forum where we argue robustly (but respectfully) with each other, and shy away from nothing. You stating your opposing views in such a robust, confident way, but politely, is exactly what is required!
Anyway, until August! :cool:
How many different T/Ts will be there - oh, and where's Farnborough?
Marco.
Dave Cawley
04-07-2009, 09:32
Hi Shuggie
It's perhaps a bit naive to think that any component "should and can work well in any application" if this were true none of us would be here now! An open mind is what is needed. Technology is different and there isn't necessarily a "best" one for all things.
I would not criticise Paul's PSU here, but I could so easily if I wanted to. So the veiled criticism of mine for using a 3 terminal regulator isn't really on. Technical fights will do this forum no good at all!
So lets live and let live? Listen to the music............
Regards
Dave
You are of course welcome to the putative bake-off, which will probably be sometime in August.
Ooh, can I come and play too please? :)
Dave Cawley
04-07-2009, 09:43
Would I be welcome, or seen as a dealer?
Regards
Dave
This is where Linn should have had the edge, only they decided to stick with a "blue-printed" TD150 for getting on for forty years..
In the absolute sense, it's how close the turntable system gets to the master source (assuming it's been done with no messing, as some are) and in Linn's case. the Blue Nile 1/2" 30IPS masters they have/had with no Dolby as I remember, sounded absolutely devastatingly good..
What I'm trying to say is that with the SL1210, one kind of arm will get the "system" closer to the source quality and so will a particular power supply designed to work with this motor arrangement, minimising the compromises. If a Rega arm sounds one way and a Jelco/SME sounds a different way, which is closer to what it ought to be? If you don't really know and rely purely on guesswork and opinion, the subjective disasters which are our ears with shedloads of "error correction" introduced by our minds' preferences will rule the day and we'll be no further forward in actually making the deck "better" i.e. as close to the source/cutting session as the vinyl disc will let us get..
It is interesting though, how careful engineering (in the case of a record player) and good knowledge of what's going on seems to get a good subjective quality as well.
If the bake-off is going to be in Farnborough (which is close to me), I'd love to come. Who is running it and what is the policy re guests?
Ammonite Audio
04-07-2009, 12:10
Hi Shuggie
It's perhaps a bit naive to think that any component "should and can work well in any application" if this were true none of us would be here now! An open mind is what is needed. Technology is different and there isn't necessarily a "best" one for all things.
I would not criticise Paul's PSU here, but I could so easily if I wanted to. So the veiled criticism of mine for using a 3 terminal regulator isn't really on. Technical fights will do this forum no good at all!
So lets live and let live? Listen to the music............
Regards
Dave
I'm sorry if my posts came across as criticising your PSU, which is clearly a significant upgrade option for the Technics - it's just that to my ears, Paul Hynes's is better and I shall probably be looking for a new home for the Time Step shortly. Similarly, remarks about 3 terminal regulators are not in any way intended as a snide reference to your product, just a general reflection on the limitations of many such devices, eg bandwidth limitation, RF rejection, transient response. As you say, let's listen to the music.
And yes, you would be welcome to the bake-off in whatever guise you choose.
On the subject of the bake-off, I have to get permission because it's within a military establishment in the Farnborough area. For that reason, it cannot be an open house affair - I would need to limit numbers (eg no more than 12) and also know exactly who is coming in advance. Those criteria aside, anyone can ask to come.
How many different T/Ts will be there - oh, and where's Farnborough?
I have received indications that a brace of PL-71s may be coming, also my two decks and hopefully a couple of really good belt drives to balance the overall outlook. I know someone who has an Audio Note TT3, which would be a good one to throw into the ring if he was willing to haul it over. Clearly, some might be offended by my digital amplification, so I hope to have some alternatives on hand as well. Farnborough is a long, long way from North Wales, being situated deep in the heart of the Sarf of England, where everything costs a fortune:(
Dave Cawley
04-07-2009, 17:01
Shuggie
Saying "eg bandwidth limitation, RF rejection, transient response." is criticism and simply not warranted or even true. Now if this continues I'll spill the beans on the "other" PSU, do we want a war? no of course not, but you won't let it go..................
Dave
chris@panteg
04-07-2009, 17:16
Hi Dave
I love what the timestep has done for my 1210 , so i can i just BIG up mr Dave cawley well done old chap .
Ammonite Audio
04-07-2009, 17:37
Shuggie
Saying "eg bandwidth limitation, RF rejection, transient response." is criticism and simply not warranted or even true. Now if this continues I'll spill the beans on the "other" PSU, do we want a war? no of course not, but you won't let it go..................
Dave
No, of course I do not want a 'war'. Perhaps naively I thought that a general discussion on the merits of two particular products was possible on this forum; however I seem to have touched a nerve, without intending any offence. It would be wholly wrong and unfair to start throwing allegations either way, so I shall retire now from this discussion.
Perhaps naively I thought that a general discussion on the merits of two particular products was possible on this forum...
Guys,
I'd like to think that this was very much possible here.
Shuggs, you and I have had quite seriously different experiences with the Techy, with both of us arguing robustly to defend our point of view, but it's never turned into a 'war'. As far as I'm concerned, both of us have shown respect for the other's valid experiences. That is precisely what this forum is about and attempts to facilitate.
All this is subjective.
However, the reason why Dave's a bit pissed off is because you're attempting to use objective data to bolster your subjective viewpoint by suggesting that, technically, the design of the Hynes PSU is somehow 'superior' to that of the Time Step - that, Shuggs, is a whole different ball game. You are putting Dave in a very difficult position.
In effect, you've taken your argument out of the subjective arena, where we're all qualified to comment, and where no-one is 'right' or 'wrong', into an arena that is based largely around fact supported by measurements. Therefore it's only natural that Dave will forcefully defend his design to the death, as I'm sure Paul would equally, were he here. The only genuine fact in terms of this argument is that both designs will work superbly well in different applications.
If you want to offer the view that in your opinion, and in your system, the Hynes PSU is superior to the Time Step (which is absolutely fine), then unless you're qualified to do otherwise, your argument must be based solely from a subjective viewpoint. Leave debates on technicalities to others who are better qualified.
Do you see what I'm saying? :)
Marco.
Amazes me reading this:scratch:
In what way, Leo? :)
Marco.
In what way, Leo? :)
Marco.
Some of the stuff posted on here, I'll step out for now but just wish some of the comments posted was more professional
Ammonite Audio
06-07-2009, 18:22
Guys,
I'd like to think that this was very much possible here.
Shuggs, you and I have had quite seriously different experiences with the Techy, with both of us arguing robustly to defend our point of view, but it's never turned into a 'war'. As far as I'm concerned, both of us have shown respect for the other's valid experiences. That is precisely what this forum is about and attempts to facilitate.
All this is subjective.
However, the reason why Dave's a bit pissed off is because you're attempting to use objective data to bolster your subjective viewpoint by suggesting that, technically, the design of the Hynes PSU is somehow 'superior' to that of the Time Step - that, Shuggs, is a whole different ball game. You are putting Dave in a very difficult position.
In effect, you've taken your argument out of the subjective arena, where we're all qualified to comment, and where no-one is 'right' or 'wrong', into an arena that is based largely around fact supported by measurements. Therefore it's only natural that Dave will forcefully defend his design to the death, as I'm sure Paul would equally, were he here. The only genuine fact in terms of this argument is that both designs will work superbly well in different applications.
If you want to offer the view that in your opinion, and in your system, the Hynes PSU is superior to the Time Step (which is absolutely fine), then unless you're qualified to do otherwise, your argument must be based solely from a subjective viewpoint. Leave debates on technicalities to others who are better qualified.
Do you see what I'm saying? :)
Marco.
Thank you to Marco for, well …... moderating. I can see now that I owe Dave Cawley an apology for carrying a perfectly valid subjective comparison between two PSU products into a separate and unnecessary argument about technicalities. I regret that, and the tone of some of the comments that followed.
I am not so arrogant as to think that the development of the Time Step PSU did not involve a great deal of expertise and work on Dave Cawley’s part – it clearly did - and I would like to recognise that expertise in respect of these direct drive decks and how they work together with other audio bits and pieces. Any implication from my posts that the Time Step PSU is in any way just another LM317 based supply is wholly unintended and regretted; similarly my ill-advised attempts to explain how the LM317 might be inferior to other discrete regulator technologies.
So, if I may return to the beginning, a tale of two power supplies, it is clear that a well-engineered external supply will improve the performance of the SL-1210 markedly. Since I own both the Time Step and Paul Hynes SR3 PSUs, I can attest that both qualify in this respect.
It is critical, though, to understand that I asked Paul Hynes to supply a 23.4v power supply that would be suitable for the Kenwood, but would adjust to 21v so that I could try it on the Technics. He looked at the Kenwood and Technics schematics and confirmed that the SR3 would do the job. He did not sell me a “Technics SL-1210 Power Supply” – in fact he sells no such thing, just high-end audio amplification and power supply upgrades that are suitable for a whole range of applications. This distinction is important to bear in mind.
Anyone reading this thread from the start will know that the SL-1210 pretty much left me unmoved up until now. In particular, to my ears the sound was rather mechanical and uninvolving, although improved by playing with feet and mats. This is why the previous owner sold it on to me almost brand new, so I am not the only one! It has been suggested that my Rega based arm was probably the cause of this musical ‘greyness’, but since the very same arm and cartridge worked well on my other DD deck, I did not subscribe to this view (although I do note the arguments made by Marco and Dave Cawley regarding synergy between components).
My opinion of the SL-1210 improved after getting the Time Step PSU, which did significantly lift the deck’s performance, particularly the portrayal of detail which was sometimes quite startling; however it still did not satisfy me in the same way that my Kenwood KD-770D did (when fitted with the same arm and cartridge), with its easy going musicality (maybe a trite term, but it reflects the harmonious, colourful and coherent sound of that deck). Then I got the Paul Hynes SR3: the Kenwood responded to the Paul Hynes PSU in quite the opposite way that I had expected – the sound became much more clinical, with stunning stability and remarkable portrayal of detail, but the easy musicality had gone, even if in HiFi terms it was clearly better. So, this was the cue to get the Technics down from the back bedroom and try it with the Paul Hynes PSU, adjusted down to the correct voltage.
Now the tables were turned. I could hardly believe what I was hearing, in that the Technics was now sounding pretty much as I’d hoped the Kenwood might with a new PSU. Put simply, there was a tonal richness and a free-breathing nature to the sound that was not there before, to add to the positive qualities already listed. Swapping PSUs back and forth confirmed what I was hearing – that greyness quite disappeared when the Paul Hynes PSU was connected. Now I rather like this Technics deck; and I shall be looking to re-plinth the Kenwood to try to bring its performance up to where I thought it would be at this point.
So, that is where I wish this story had started and ended, had I chosen my words more carefully. In my system (listed below), the Technics performs significantly better, according to my priorities and tastes, with the Paul Hynes PSU than with the Time Step PSU. Others with different listening priorities may rate them the other way round, and if my bake-off in August goes ahead, there will be an opportunity for everyone there to experience both of these PSUs for themselves.
I hope that now comes across more reasonably.
Dave Cawley
06-07-2009, 23:00
I think this goes to prove the holistic envelope. :kiss:
A totally Timestep/Sound Hi Fi system is good, but mix it and you could be in trouble.
But what about the future? our PSU is complimentary to the new bearing, the new platter and the new top plate and the new???. Only Timestep knows what the future will hold................
Regards
:bag:
Dave
our PSU is complimentary to the new bearing, the new platter and the new top plate and the new???.
You're just teasing now :)
Ammonite Audio
07-07-2009, 08:51
Here's a question - does the noticeable 'give' in the SL-1210's platter mean that the platter itself is flexing when prodded, or is it the bearing? I suspect it's the platter, which surely must be one aspect of the deck that could be improved? Just idle thoughts, but I'd be interested to hear some opinions.
It is most likely a combination of the bearing and the plinth or sub chassis...as the motor is bolted to the top plate or sub chassis the main flex will be in that area...
Ammonite Audio
18-07-2009, 17:02
I am looking at either Sat 22 August, or Sun 23 August for the DD 'table bake-off, in the Farnborough (Hants) area. Because I shall be using one of our small lecture rooms, there is room for up to 12 people; also other gear that folks may wish to bring along.
Could I have an indication of who may be interested, and which day is better for the majority?
Although titled a DD bake-off, I do hope that a few good belters will be there, too.
Many thanks
Shuggie
Nice one, Shuggs. I'll need to see what I'm up to (as I'm in the middle of house redecorating at the moment), but I'd certainly love to be there. Will keep you posted :)
Marco.
Unfortunately I'm away on that date. Shame as Farnborough is just down the road from me.
Hi Shuggs,
Does it absolutely *have* to be those dates?
I thought perhaps it might be a better idea to propose a few different dates, some maybe a little further ahead than August, and thrash out a mutually suitable one amongst those who had intended to come... Would that be possible instead? :)
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
19-07-2009, 15:38
Hi Shuggs,
Does it absolutely *have* to be those dates?
I thought perhaps it might be a better idea to propose a few different dates, some maybe a little further ahead than August, and thrash out a mutually suitable one amongst those who had intended to come... Would that be possible instead? :)
Marco.
OK - I have looked at the calendar. Preferred dates are still in August, as this establishment is closed for the Summer stand-down and I therefore have much greater freedom to organise something without impinging on other activities going on here.
So, I can do the following dates:
Sat 22 August or Sun 23 August
Sun 30 August
If that's all too difficult because of holidays etc, then I propose:
Saturday 12 September or
Sunday 13 September
This would be a tad more involved because of the security arrangements. Nothing insurmountable, though.
Please can anyone wishing to come along indicate their preference(s), and then I'll post a dedicated bake-off thread for Marco to stick in place.
Cheers
Shuggie
Magna Audio
19-07-2009, 18:00
Only just caught up on this one. I'd love to come along and hear these top modded SL-1210's etc.
I could also bring my SL-1210 with Parallel tracking air arm or with the arm on the PL-71 if desired
http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/22550/2747647530071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2747647530071997495TVBGHv)
Or
http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/44875/2660703920071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2660703920071997495xbQpAo)
All dates fine with me.
Hahaha... You're a mad boy, Steve - no-one else would be so cheeky as to put a Terminator on a PL-71!
I could also bring my SL-1210 with Parallel tracking air arm or with the arm on the PL-71 if desired...
"If desired"? Too bloody right it's desired! I'd love to know how the Techy sounds, thus 'frocked' :smoking:
Marco.
I'm intrested, September dates are better for me...
I'd love to know how the Techy sounds, thus 'frocked' :smoking:
Marco.
Hi Marco,
What is it with you - here you go again introducing the subject of ladies clothing into the discussion on the slightest of pretexts. :lolsign:
Cheers,
You should be used to it by now, Dave. ;)
You should be used to it by now, Dave. ;)
Hi Mike,
I guess I should, but in my formative years, many many years ago, these things were only talked about behind closed doors :confused::scratch: and it still comes as a gentle shock to hear it not only talked about in public but to be actually flaunted. I noticed recently that he used the 'kissing' smilie a couple of times - very disconcerting at my age!!! :lolsign: I am not sure that I should ever accept sweets from him or, worse still, a lift in his car, were either ever to be offered.:scratch: :lolsign:
Cheers,
Hahahahahahahaha.... What are you guys like? :lol:
Jeez, you should hear the conversations Ian Walker and I (and other friends I know well) have sometimes - this shit here is major lower league! :eyebrows:
:flasher:
Marco.
Hahahahahahahaha.... What are you guys like? :lol:
Jeez, you should hear the conversations Ian Walker and I (and other friends I know well) have sometimes - this shit here is major lower league! :eyebrows:
:flasher:
Marco.
And this is supposed to reassure a confused old man??? - I'm getting more and more discocerted :lolsign:
I think it's time for bed but I ain't going yet - I don't want nightmares.:lol:
Paul Hynes
30-08-2009, 20:56
Following posts on this thread, it has been brought to my attention that a certain person who makes power supplies for the Technics SL1200 has posted information on his website that is factually incorrect. This information is copied from his website below ;-
Note 30 June 2009: PSRR has been mentioned by some people, but it is the end result that tells all on our PSU, quite simply we measure noise on a HP400F voltmeter with a noise floor of 2.5uV, remember too that most equipment rejects power supply noise by at least 60dB. Theorising is OK, but measurements tell all! Another manufacturer of PSU's normally used for preamplifiers decided to have ago at us, and about how his PSU reacted to differing loads and how much feedback he used. Well we all know about the pitfalls of excessive feedback and a motor control has different requirements to a preamplifier! The last we heard of it was that " is back with **** for the moment for some adjustments" yes indeed! We are professional designers with a long pedigree.
Now lets examine these comments.
1] “ another manufacturer of PSU’s normally used for preamplifiers decided to have a go at us”. Hmm, I don’t think so. If I decided to enter your market area, with serious intention, you would know about it by now. If someone asks me for a power supply for a specific function I will provide this whether it encroaches on your market or not. The power supply in question has been used for a wide variety of power supply applications since 1984 and is not just suitable for preamplifiers. In fact I was using this regulator topology in it’s early incarnation to power the Pink Triangle DC motor version of their record deck in the 1980’s very successfully. It has also been used for powering the origin live DC motor many times and every one has been very pleased with the resulting sound quality improvement.
2], “about how it reacts to differing loads”. It reacts a lot less than an LM317 to differing loads over a much wider bandwidth.
3], “about how much feedback he used”. Actually I don’t recall mentioning how much feedback I use in this circuit topology. For the record it is 20 dB less than the LM317 below 1 KHz but crucially it has a much wider open loop bandwidth than the LM317 with much better transient response than the LM317, which gives better control above 1KHz than the LM317 can achieve. It is also way quieter than the LM317. The voltage reference I use is a low noise device, which is well filtered, and the error amplifier device noise specification is 0.5 nanovolts root Hz with an LF noise corner of 1 Hz. This is a damn quiet power supply and it is very stable.
4], “Well we all know about the pitfalls of excessive feedback”. With this I do agree. You have to know what you are doing when you design wide bandwidth circuits. I test my designs on a 250 MHz scope with a wide variety of loads to ensure that the design is unconditionally stable and therefore suitable for any load.
5], “Motor control has different requirements to a preamplifier” I would be pleased if you would explain these different requirements.
6], “The last we heard of it was that “is back with **** for the moment for some adjustments”. Actually it was returned to me for checking as Hugo was getting strange voltage readings on his multimeter. On receiving the power supply I put it through a rigorous test procedure to see if I could reproduce the readings that Hugo was getting. The power supply was fine and was operating correctly for a whole week of soak testing and the general abuse I subject my power supplies to under test. Hugo then informed me that his multimeter was faulty and I sent the power supply back. He also mentioned this in his posts on this forum yet you have still suggested the power supply was faulty on your website. This is clearly untrue and very unprofessional.
7], “Yes indeed! We are professional designers with a long pedigree”. I cannot comment on this statement, as I do not know you. However I do question the professional integrity of the statements you have made about my power supplies on your website as they are erroneous.
Perhaps you would show me that you are capable of acting professionally by removing the erroneous comments from your website.
To the site moderators.
I am sorry to have to bring this issue to this forum thread but I feel that having been the subject of the above issues, that are related to posts on this thread, I have a right of reply.
Paul Hynes.
Hi Paul,
No problem at all :)
You've expressed yourself eloquently and courteously. I am in no position to debate the technical aspects of the points you've raised. However, you are completely free to defend the design methodology of your products, just as Dave is with his.
As long as any ensuing discussion between you remains polite and non-aggressive, it will be allowed to run.
Marco.
Paul Hynes
30-08-2009, 21:38
Thank You Marco, I appreciate your stance.
Regards
Paul
Dave Cawley
30-08-2009, 21:41
Wow! What is on my website should not be of concern to the moderators here. What is on my website is in my professional opinion, honest and true. It isn't my ambition to teach power supply design here. This simply isn't the right place for any of this.
Dave
Wow! What is on my website should not be of concern to the moderators here. Dave
But the moderator has deliderately avoided expressing any concern about what's on your website Dave, IMHO.
Cheers,
Wow! What is on my website should not be of concern to the moderators here. What is on my website is in my professional opinion, honest and true. It isn't my ambition to teach power supply design here. This simply isn't the right place for any of this.
Dave
This forum and your website are both in the public domain, Dave.
As long as everything is kept professional and polite, then you are both free to express your opinions here. It could be of interest to many 'viewers'.
Regards,
Mike.
Paul Hynes
30-08-2009, 22:16
Actually Dave, you have made comments on this forum thread regarding the power supply in question and therefore I consider it my right to discuss the issue on the thread.
What you have stated about my power supply on your website is entirely erroneous and you are obliged to substantiate your statements instead of fabricating them. Your professional reputation is at stake here so I would suggest you think very carefully about what you say next. If you cannot be bothered to justify your statements I rest my case.
PH
Dave Cawley
31-08-2009, 08:10
In the sober light of the morning, I have reviewed this thread and my own website. I see no problem or inconstancies. Our power supply has been professionally designed for it's purpose and specifically for the demanding use of the Technics Direct Drive. We were the first to correctly understand the original internal regulator and the first and maybe the only people to dynamically measure the deck with it's new power supply.
Sound Hi Fi and Timestep are committed to the continued improvement of the SL1200 as witnessed by the Tone Audio review, click here (http://www.soundhifi.com/images/Tone%20SL-1200.pdf) to see it, and the Hi Fi World August 2009 review.
Our new bearing is undergoing test right now, our 78rpm modification has been available for a while now, and we have another couple of even more radical modifications coming soon! Put simply, we are adopting a holistic approach where each modification is designed to compliment the other. In a nutshell, not all of our future modifications will work with third party power supplies.
Regards
Dave
Paul Hynes
31-08-2009, 09:37
Dave,
I am not concerned about your credentials or your commitment to improving the performance of the Technics deck.
I am concerned that people are linking your un-substantiated comments on your website, about one of my power supplies, with discussions on this forum thread, that are relative to the use of my power supply with the Technics deck. You give me no choice but to challenge you.
Instead of answering my concerns in a professional manner you have avoided the issue and moved your reply directly to self-promotion.
As you have no personal experience of my power supply when used with the Technics deck you are not qualified to make such comments as you have done on your website.
I am easily satisfied. Either stop avoiding the issue and substantiate the comments in question or remove them from your website. Then we can both go about our business without any further conflict.
Regards
Paul
Guys,
Could one of you copy and paste the (objectionable) comments here which are under discussion?
It will enable me to form an opinion of my own and save me from trawling through Dave's website.
Thanks in advance! :)
Marco.
Marco, I believe Paul has already shown it in his earlier post?
Dave Cawley
31-08-2009, 09:51
I am not concerned about your credentials or your commitment to improving the performance of the Technics deck.
But Art of Sound members and our customers are!!
I have amended our website to accommodate the customers faulty multimeter, but why he needed a multimeter in the first place is a mystery? But Paul, what is it your objection to on our website, I cannot see anything that is incorrect? I do hope you are not reading too much into what I said, or reading between the lines?
Dave
Marco, I believe Paul has already shown it in his earlier post?
Ah yes, sorry. I'd forgotten about that :doh:
It just flew over the top of my head before...
What I'm getting at is *specifically* what is considered as objectionable/inappropriate by Paul. As it's largely all 'technical gobbledygook' to me, it's difficult for me to understand what exactly the problem is...
Paul,
Perhaps you could help me out a bit more? :)
Marco.
what is considered as objectionable/inappropriate by Paul.
If you read some of the comments Dave has made in this thread in conjunction with the comments on his website it's my understanding that Paul believes Dave is, err, 'casting aspersions' on his own PSU in order to promote the Timestep.
At least that's my take on the situation.
Yes, and Dave has not exactly 'amended' his website: He has added an additional comment which continues to 'cast aspersions', in my opinion.
I think you're absolutely right, Mike. I'd just like the specifics of the 'casting of these aspersions' explained a bit more clearly in 'layman's terms' :)
Basically, I can't offer an opinion on 'who's right' and 'who's wrong' without this.
Paul?
Marco.
Paul Hynes
31-08-2009, 10:23
Hi Marco,
It would appear that DC feels moved to add further to his website comments so I have included tha addition here.
Note 30 June 2009: PSRR has been mentioned by some people, but it is the end result that tells all on our PSU, quite simply we measure noise on a HP400F voltmeter with a noise floor of 2.5uV, remember too that most equipment rejects power supply noise by at least 60dB. Theorising is OK, but measurements tell all! Another manufacturer of PSU's normally used for preamplifiers decided to have ago at us, and about how his PSU reacted to differing loads and how much feedback he used. Well we all know about the pitfalls of excessive feedback and a motor control has different requirements to a preamplifier! The last we heard of it was that " is back with **** for the moment for some adjustments" yes indeed! We are professional designers with a long pedigree. Update 31 August 2009: Apparently the owners multimeter was faulty not the power supply? Remember, with a Timestep PSU you only need a screwdriver and a soldering iron, you don't need anything else and you certainly do not need to set it up with a multimeter or anything else. The Timestep power supply comes fully tested, fully set up and completely finished in its own rather nice case.
Regards
Paul
Dave,
I think it would be obvious to anyone involved in electronic design why the multimeter was needed, as the power supply was required to power two different decks with different voltage requirements. I was asked to make the output variable to accommodate this requirement and other future potential voltage changes that may be required. How are you supposed to set the voltage to the required value on a variable power supply without a mutimeter, or some other way of reading voltage, Dave? Please answer this question, as I am keen to know how you would achieve such a feat.
Yet again you are avoiding my request to substantiate the comments you have made about my power supply. It's a simple tactic. Politicians use it all the time.
Paul
From Dave's website (as posted by Paul):
Another manufacturer of PSU's normally used for preamplifiers decided to have ago at us, and about how his PSU reacted to differing loads and how much feedback he used...
Ok, can we start by someone showing me evidence (in the form of a direct quote) of this bit about "having a go"? Where and when did this "having a go" take place? I would like to read the exact text that was used by the 'guilty party'.
Cheers!
Marco.
Paul Hynes
31-08-2009, 10:32
Hi Marco,
My concern is that the comments Dave has made about my power supply are not factual. I do not think I am asking too much for him to explain what he means by each comment or for him to support his comments technically. A professional response would have been to substantiate any claim made in public.
Regards
Paul
Oh I agree, I think the ball's very much in Dave's court now.
Just to make it absolutely crystal clear... Admin have no 'loyalties' or bias towards anyone in reference to this issue.
We are only concerned about what is right and fair and will support whatever is deemed as such by the evidence given in support of both arguments :)
Marco.
Basically, I can't offer an opinion on 'who's right' and 'who's wrong'
And nor should you, 'we' are in no position to be judge & jury! :) ;)
Basically, I can't offer an opinion on 'who's right' and 'who's wrong'...
And nor should you, 'we' are in no position to be judge & jury! :) ;)
Absolutely, but AOS must support whoever is deemed to be in the right. In this instance, when I say "I", I mean AOS.
I will not allow the forum to represent anything which is considered as 'underhand', through links to people's websites, or whatever.
Therefore this situation requires to be resolved to the satisfaction of everyone concerned.
Marco.
Just my two pennorth:
I like Marco, Have no idea of the rights and wrongs, or technical accuracy, of the statemen(s) in question but, having made the statement(s) in the public domain of this forum, Dave should be allowed (obliged even?), to justify the statement(s), or withdraw them, in the same forum - seems only fair to me, IMHO.
Cheers,
Absolutely, but AOS must support whoever is deemed to be in the right. In this instance, when I say "I", I mean AOS.
I will not allow the forum to represent anything which is considered as 'underhand', through links to people's websites, or whatever.
Therefore this situation requires to be resolved to the satisfaction of everyone concerned.
Marco.
Fair enough... I'll bow out of being responsible for any 'deeming' though, if that's OK? ;)
"The AoS court finds in favour of........ " :sofa:
You're missing the point, Mikey... Anyway, let's leave the two 'protagonists' in this saga now to have their say :)
Marco.
Dave Cawley
31-08-2009, 11:22
I still find it odd that Paul won't ask me directly? I can see, now that he has explained, that it was a "universal" PSU not a SL-1200 specific PSU; and that you would need a multimeter in that case. I don't think that was explained before. I'll amend my website again to accommodate this.
But Paul, please be very specific, exactly what do you object to? Please don't generalise, be scientific please? I really don't think this barrage of complaint is justified without a detailed explanation?
1. And the first thing Paul, could you tell me if you think a PSU designed for a preamplifier would be ideally suited to a direct drive motor. And if so why do you think that?
As I said just now, we are adopting a holistic approach where each modification is designed to compliment the other. In a nutshell, not all of our future modifications will work with third party power supplies.
We have done more than anyone, Marco excepted, to push this fantastic deck and we fully cover all our achievements on our webstite, read the first part by clicking here (http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm), and the PSU specific parts by clicking here (http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/SL1200%20PSU.htm).
Dave
Dave Cawley
31-08-2009, 11:57
Paul
I have a few more questions :-
2. Is your SL-1200 PSU a new design, or a modification to an existing design?
3. Did you look at the waveforms before and after, and what did you observe?
4. Have you kept these waveforms in a EXIF file so that we can all see your measurements?
5. When you talk about feedback, how does yours accommodate a direct drive motor.
I'll have some more questions later.
Dave
Dave Cawley
31-08-2009, 12:19
Paul
You were mentioned on this thread in July 2009 and some points raised. All the points below were critical of my PSU. At that time I had not criticised your PSU at all. Although I did say, and that is true, that one should look at things in a holistic way. I also probably said, and this is true too, that our future modifications could only be guaranteed to work with our PSU. Could you elaborate on these points that you made please?
6. Bandwidth limitation: Could you explain what you mean by this, preferably with scope traces so that we could all look and learn please?
7. RF rejection: How did you measure this, power level, frequency and proximity.
8. Transient response: Did you use a SL1200 to measure this, if so can we see the results please? If not could you explain what you mean and could we see the calculations and results please?
Dave
Alex Nikitin
31-08-2009, 12:37
How are you supposed to set the voltage to the required value on a variable power supply without a mutimeter, or some other way of reading voltage, Dave? Please answer this question, as I am keen to know how you would achieve such a feat.
Hi Paul,
I think I can answer this one - just use a switch to set up the output voltage to predefined values in place of a potentiometer, and your customers would be able to choose the right voltage without a multimeter.
Cheers
Alex
Paul Hynes
31-08-2009, 13:03
Pay attention Dave, Shuggie stated that he required an adjustable power supply from me, and his reasoning behind that requirement, in post 92 on the thread.
I guess you have not read my post number 110 on this thread either. In this post I have clearly stated where I think your statements are erroneous.
In this post I am asking you directly to substantiate your statements highlighted in post 110.
Please clarify WHY you have made the following statements on your website,
“another manufacturer of PSU’s normally used to power preamplifiers decided to have a go at us”
“and about how his PSU reacted to differing loads”
“and how much feedback he used”
“we all know the pitfalls of excessive feedback”
“and motor control has different requirements to a preamplifier”
Please show me where you got the information from, that caused you to make these statements. It is not a lot to ask.
For the record the LM317 can be configured for a variety of different power supply requirements. It is a general-purpose part. Your power supply could, in theory be used for powering other equipment including preamplifiers.
In note 5 of my post 110 I have already asked you to explain the different requirements of motor control and so far you have not bothered to do so. I have an open mind and would like to know more about motor control. Please educate me.
Regards
Paul
Dave Cawley
31-08-2009, 13:16
Paul
One thing at a time please.................
I'm sure you know all the answers, so please answer my 8 questions above. Then we will all know the truth.
Trying to deflect the argument by retrospectively asking the same questions is bizarre!
Dave
Paul
.....
Trying to deflect the argument by retrospectively asking the same questions is bizarre!
Dave
There is no argument.
Dave you had a right old 'go' at Paul, for which he is asking quite politely for you to substantiate.
Somebody else assessed the different power supplies..and made a subjective judgement.
Paul Hynes
31-08-2009, 14:24
Dave,
I notice that you have updated your web site again. It is a start, but unfortunately you are still basing your comments on erroneous information.
I have re-read the posts you allude to from July 2009. The fact that someone mentions my name or my product, in a forum thread, and then proceeds to compare it with your product is hardly my fault. Maybe I have missed something but also I see no mention of my citing bandwidth limitation, RF rejection, or transient response for any reason either. Perhaps you could post a link directly to this information to better help me understand what is going on here.
Regards
Paul
Dave Cawley
31-08-2009, 14:27
Hi Steve
Not really, the words on this thread were originally supplied by Paul. Alex has answered his question, and now I'm simply asking Paul about his various statements. I'm sure he can give good answers for us all to learn from?
Dave
Paul Hynes
31-08-2009, 14:36
Hi Alex,
Using a switch would be fine if a couple of specific voltages were all that were required, But Shuggie wanted some variable adjustment and the customer is always right.
Regards
Paul
Spectral Morn
31-08-2009, 14:49
Hi Guys
Not taking sides here ( I have not had any dealings with either Paul or Dave, nor do I have any vested interests in either company or products. )and purely in the interest of moving this series of posts on, it would perhaps IMHO be a good idea to answer the first set of questions from post 110 and then tackle any subsequent questions.
Otherwise this thread will end up going round in a circle and going know where fast.
Regards D S D L
Yep, agreed. And just to remind everyone of what it was, here it is:
Following posts on this thread, it has been brought to my attention that a certain person who makes power supplies for the Technics SL1200 has posted information on his website that is factually incorrect. This information is copied from his website below ;-
Note 30 June 2009: PSRR has been mentioned by some people, but it is the end result that tells all on our PSU, quite simply we measure noise on a HP400F voltmeter with a noise floor of 2.5uV, remember too that most equipment rejects power supply noise by at least 60dB. Theorising is OK, but measurements tell all! Another manufacturer of PSU's normally used for preamplifiers decided to have ago at us, and about how his PSU reacted to differing loads and how much feedback he used. Well we all know about the pitfalls of excessive feedback and a motor control has different requirements to a preamplifier! The last we heard of it was that " is back with **** for the moment for some adjustments" yes indeed! We are professional designers with a long pedigree.
Now lets examine these comments.
1] “ another manufacturer of PSU’s normally used for preamplifiers decided to have a go at us”. Hmm, I don’t think so. If I decided to enter your market area, with serious intention, you would know about it by now. If someone asks me for a power supply for a specific function I will provide this whether it encroaches on your market or not. The power supply in question has been used for a wide variety of power supply applications since 1984 and is not just suitable for preamplifiers. In fact I was using this regulator topology in it’s early incarnation to power the Pink Triangle DC motor version of their record deck in the 1980’s very successfully. It has also been used for powering the origin live DC motor many times and every one has been very pleased with the resulting sound quality improvement.
2], “about how it reacts to differing loads”. It reacts a lot less than an LM317 to differing loads over a much wider bandwidth.
3], “about how much feedback he used”. Actually I don’t recall mentioning how much feedback I use in this circuit topology. For the record it is 20 dB less than the LM317 below 1 KHz but crucially it has a much wider open loop bandwidth than the LM317 with much better transient response than the LM317, which gives better control above 1KHz than the LM317 can achieve. It is also way quieter than the LM317. The voltage reference I use is a low noise device, which is well filtered, and the error amplifier device noise specification is 0.5 nanovolts root Hz with an LF noise corner of 1 Hz. This is a damn quiet power supply and it is very stable.
4], “Well we all know about the pitfalls of excessive feedback”. With this I do agree. You have to know what you are doing when you design wide bandwidth circuits. I test my designs on a 250 MHz scope with a wide variety of loads to ensure that the design is unconditionally stable and therefore suitable for any load.
5], “Motor control has different requirements to a preamplifier” I would be pleased if you would explain these different requirements.
6], “The last we heard of it was that “is back with **** for the moment for some adjustments”. Actually it was returned to me for checking as Hugo was getting strange voltage readings on his multimeter. On receiving the power supply I put it through a rigorous test procedure to see if I could reproduce the readings that Hugo was getting. The power supply was fine and was operating correctly for a whole week of soak testing and the general abuse I subject my power supplies to under test. Hugo then informed me that his multimeter was faulty and I sent the power supply back. He also mentioned this in his posts on this forum yet you have still suggested the power supply was faulty on your website. This is clearly untrue and very unprofessional.
7], “Yes indeed! We are professional designers with a long pedigree”. I cannot comment on this statement, as I do not know you. However I do question the professional integrity of the statements you have made about my power supplies on your website as they are erroneous.
Perhaps you would show me that you are capable of acting professionally by removing the erroneous comments from your website.
To the site moderators.
I am sorry to have to bring this issue to this forum thread but I feel that having been the subject of the above issues, that are related to posts on this thread, I have a right of reply.
Paul Hynes.
Over to you guys now... Can we please have it so that one set of questions is answered properly in their entirety before another set are asked? :)
Otherwise, the discussion is impossible to follow.
Cheers!
Marco.
Dave Cawley
31-08-2009, 15:35
Guys
I don't see any direct questions there. I have changed my website for the fourth time though (!)
I assumed that ( 04-07-2009, 09:57 AM "I can only go on what he (Paul) has told me" and later 04-07-2009, 01:10 PM "eg bandwidth limitation, RF rejection, transient response. " ) must have been fed from Paul. But I can see that it may not be, although it was a reasonable assumption. On that basis I apologise to Paul and have changed my website for the fourth time!
The integrity of the SL1200 and all it's future developments are more important than mere semantics! However my comments on the Timestep Power supply, it's inherent suitability, and it's design for the SL1200 are correct, and we are totally committed to the SL1200. Onwards and upwards!!
Regards
Dave
Paul Hynes
31-08-2009, 16:26
Dave,
I now understand how you assumed certain information came from me. In fact it did not with any direct relation to your power supply. Shuggie asked me for a power supply and I provided him with one. He has been using my regulator modules for years, for various functions, and he has also been active on forums discussing power supply regulation from time to time. He has compared the results of using my regulators against other regulator types and formulated his opinions along the way. You can understand why I was so concerned that I was being quoted as saying things I had no comprehension of.
Thank you for changing the website.
Regards
Paul
Paul Hynes
31-08-2009, 16:49
Thanks to all the forum members for their mediation efforts.
Regards
Paul
Dave Cawley
31-08-2009, 16:53
Yes, thanks from me too! I think we or I was getting lost in the woods. Thanks to a certain person (you know who you are) who pointed out that the assumption I had made, may not have been as clear cut as it once seemed!
Regards
Dave
Group hug...Group hug.
:gig:
Well, on a certain other site there are two Naim tweakers who each have loyal but friendly followings (one keeps the Naim character but attempts to improve on it and the other attempts to make the Naim circuits the stable, neutral and competent designs they could (and should?) have been.. I hope this can possibly be followed here.
A real shame that noone here likes the idea of little active speakers with custom designed amps and digital inputs. I've seen Ashley James banned for less than I've read above. He may not have repeatedly stated how this particular speaker spec's out, but there's enough info on them out there for the basic performance to be ascertained. I suppose it's because the Techie is so well loved by those that know which makes things different in this case...
!?! no, no surely your not comparing the underhand viral marketing that AJ dishes out at every opportunity to this thread. :scratch: The two bare no resemblance at all!
I'm really not trying to stir things any further, but what was Ash's viral marketing in actual fact? Saying that all component audio is "Legacy" compared to this model of speaker? Not so far away from stating that all springy belt drives are dreadful and lo-fi compared to the tweaked SL1200 and that little 1970's pro amps with impressive spec sound truly dire and terrible when compared to a frighteningly expensive copper-clad valve amp made with expensive boutique internal bits that only a handful of people have ever heard, let alone own (yes, I'm green with envy, but I can live with it :D).
Anyway, I'll get off me soap-box and eagerly await the time when I finally succomb to an SL1200 of my own (again :gig:)
LOL, Dave!
I suppose it's because the Techie is so well loved by those that know which makes things different in this case...
No, it's because Ashley was a total fanny.
Anyway, with regard to the 'Dave & Paul show', I see it's a case of all's well that ends well - nice one, guys! :cool:
Marco.
Ash may be a lot of things, but "fanny" isn't one of them :D
The point is that Technics make a deck that in standard trim is similar to, if opposite to, a Rega 3 - the Rega having a good and profitable arm on a just acceptable platform, the Techie having a decent and potentially great drive platform with a surprisingly lightweight arm that isn't best suited to the fussier cartridges out there it seems. It's good for the modders that Technics don't see any real mileage in top end vinyl reproduction.
Will the bearing update fit the SL150? The basic "motor" assembly looks very similar to me, even if the control circuit is totally different.
The point is that Technics make a deck that in standard trim is similar to, if opposite to, a Rega 3 - the Rega having a good and profitable arm on a just acceptable platform...
Not quite, Dave... The Rega is more like a Fisher Price toy compared to the Technics :lol:
Tonearm aside, in terms of engineering, it's like comparing a Dansette to an EMT!
I don't even particularly rate the tonearm and think that in standard form the RB250 or 300 is one of the most overrated, over-hyped items ever to enter the hi-fi market. It's 'ok' when used with one of Rega's so-so MM cartridges, but with anything else it sounds grey, bland, and rather boring.
The likes of a Jelco SA-250T (used by Martin T) or any high quality 'S-shaped' Japanese arm, past or present, pisses all over it in my experience. And the myriad of 'tweaked' versions don't compare to the likes of a Jelco SA-750D or an SME M2 or 309 (sorry Shuggs!) The M2, in particular, is as underrated as the Rega is overrated.
In my opinion, people have been brainwashed by the hi-fi press and dealers nearly as much with Rega tonearms (and their T/Ts to an extent) as they have with LP12s and the whole bloody belt-drive tune-playing 'superiority' bollocks!!
There; that should get some people going ;)
Marco.
Dave Cawley
01-09-2009, 07:24
My personal take:
The problem is that most standard arms are damaged by hard use. If they are damaged it makes sense to replace it with a better one.
A standard arm in good or new condition is as good, or bad as a Rega. So using a Rega is a bit of a waste of time, and to give you a idea they are only £60 trade............ If you rewire or refurb the standard arm, in the end you still have a standard arm.
The Jelco 250 is a great arm for the OC9.
The Jelco 750 is a great all round arm and has an interchangeable headshell, useful for some.
The SME M2 is a retro throwback and I don't recommend it.
The SME 309 is the bargain of the decade.
SME IV and V are for the wealthy but ultimately worth it, but only if you spend a shed load of money on a cartridge that will do them justice.
I have a new Hadcock unipivot, anyone want me to try it?
Regards
Dave
Hi Dave,
The SME M2 is a retro throwback and I don't recommend it.
We'll have to disagree there, mate! I've heard it and it's a bloody good arm - and you know that I know a good sound when I hear it ;)
How is the M2 a "retro throwback" anymore than a Jelco 750 is? One could say that the 750 is a "retro throwback" of a Sumiko...
Agreed on the SME 309 - yep, a great arm for the price. The IV is too, although I don't think the V is worth the extra money over the IV. My personal choice at that exalted level would be an Ikeda – a truly superb tonearm on every level.
Totally agree about the Hadcock - in my experience it outperforms any modified Rega-based arm, providing you can put up with the achingly fiddly set-up.
When it comes to tonearms, more people should think outside of the box and move away from the 'usual suspects', which have been impregnated into people's minds largely through ignorance of what else is out there away from the front of their nose.
Marco.
Dave Cawley
01-09-2009, 08:09
The difference is the M2 is a throwback but a nice throwback, whereas the Jelco 750 is a proper new design, in my opinion. But I'm happy to sell the M2's all day long if people want and like them! It certainly is an outstanding bargain, especially for those outside of the EU when it could be as low as £543 or about $800 USD !
Regards
Dave
Cool. What's the news on the 103SAs, dude?
We need to get moving with the HFW review :)
Marco.
S'ok. Got your email :cool:
Marco.
chris@panteg
01-09-2009, 10:38
Dave ' regarding the 309 have you ever tried the 10' version ' you see i used to have the 310 on my Voyd .5 ' and although i never compared it to the 9 ' i was informed by Kevin Scott no less ' that the 10 ' had slightly stronger bass .
This is all very subtle of course ' but i wonder if the 310 would be too long on the 1210 ' i wish i had kept it ' SME arm's are just works of art ' they also sound superb.
Chris
Dave Cawley
01-09-2009, 13:09
Hi Chris
I haven't tried the 310. The 10" would not fit. But as I have discovered, there is far more to arm and cartridge matching that just a bit of number crunching! My SME V loves the Shelter 501 and hates the Transfiguration Phoenix on the SP-10.
Dave
Ammonite Audio
01-09-2009, 15:00
I've been in Germany for the last day (indeed I still am), and mightily pleased to note that 'things' have been settled.
.....................The likes of a Jelco SA-250T (used by Martin T) or any high quality 'S-shaped' Japanese arm, past or present, pisses all over it in my experience. And the myriad of 'tweaked' versions don't compare to the likes of a Jelco SA-750D or an SME M2 or 309 (sorry Shuggs!) ......................
There; that should get some people going ;)
Marco.
Well, I have been trying a SA-750D for the last few days, which I got from Dave at a good price, but I think I need some setup tips as so far it is not performing too well on my Technics, in comparison with the AO'd standard arm. I'm sure that it's something that I've done wrong, and maybe Marco can spare me the time to go through it sometime.
Hi Shuggs,
Sorry to hear that, mate. It should sound fantastic. Best phone Dave, as he'll be able to solve the problem, or if you think I can help with anything just ask :)
What cartridge are you using again? Remember that the SA-750D works best with low compliance MCs, such as the DL-103 and SPUs.
Marco.
The IV is too, although I don't think the V is worth the extra money over the IV
Completely agree, I used a IV for quite some time and it really is a superb arm. There is a case for good looking engineering sounding good too, and the build quality of these is second to none.
I will say, though, that the Jelco SA-250ST gives the SME IV a good run for its money, especially with moderately high compliance cartridges like the OC9 and 33PTG.
The arm I would like to get my hands on is the Dynavector DV-507. A friend had a 505 mounted on a Micro Seiki three-post direct drive deck and it sounded stunning. I can't see how it would mount on an SL1210 but I'd like to try!
Ammonite Audio
01-09-2009, 21:49
Hi Shuggs,
Sorry to hear that, mate. It should sound fantastic. Best phone Dave, as he'll be able to solve the problem, or if you think I can help with anything just ask :)
What cartridge are you using again? Remember that the SA-750D works best with low compliance MCs, such as the DL-103 and SPUs.
Marco.
The 2M Black, and an old AT-OC5 which really surprised me by being rather good in the Technics arm. Of these two cartridges, the 2M Black sounds better in the SA-750D than the OC5 - exactly the opposite of the Technics arm.
I'll get there!
Edit: Just noticed that the compliance of the Kontrapunkt B is similar to the SPU, so I shall try that tomorrow.
I had no luck with the SMEIV (silver wired) I was using a ZYX R100H Cart I thought the bass and was ok perhaps it was a cartridge mismatch or TT I was using VPI Hw19 mark 4 with all the trimings at the time Just not enough resolution and as soon as I changed the arm the results were so easy to hear even my none audio friends could hear the difference
I had no luck with the SMEIV (silver wired) I was using a ZYX R100H Cart I thought the bass and was ok perhaps it was a cartridge mismatch or TT I was using VPI Hw19 mark 4 with all the trimings at the time Just not enough resolution and as soon as I changed the arm the results were so easy to hear even my none audio friends could hear the difference
Sounds like a system mismatch but who knows? Which arm replaced the IV?
Incidentally, is that Cricklewood as in North London? Used to live there!
Jus.
Yes sure is Cricklewood in NW london I am close staples corner end
Might be a system thing but still never heard a sme that blew me away The terminator was in a different league but might of been a synergy issue
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.