MM > MC - The Conclusion

[julesd68]

First up, I must say many thanks to Geoff (Walpurgis) for making the journey from Sarf to Norf London today, to help me out - top man! Geoff bought all his tools with him to do the cart mounting - much appreciated indeed. :thumbsup:

I have come to some immediate conclusions after listening to my new MC carts today.

Firstly, it maybe a cliche, but MC carts have more "air and separation". There is an added realism, more of an "in the room" quality to the music. Also, with the two carts I tried today, a real bonus is the lowest record surface noise I have ever come across.

Now this works fantastically well with classical music. Much easier to follow individual instruments in complex orchestral passages. Definitely a more refined and smooth sound, but not soft and lacking in dynamics. Listening to the Adagio from Khatchaturian's "Spartacus" the hairs on my arms stood to attention!

When I switched to Iron Maiden's "Powerslave", it was a very different experience. The MC's just didn't have the guts and drive of my Nagaoka MP-50. The twin guitars felt a little thin and weedy. Put simply, it "rocks" more with my MP-50. Deep Purple's "In Rock" fared much better with their more complex arrangements and mellower mix - Jon Lord's Hammond was very pleasingly portrayed. Rush came across the best of the rockers with "Signals" - one of my favourite test records; the complex, multi-layered production was most beautifully handled.

I have taken an immediate liking to my Ortofon MC25FL. Whether it is a giant-killer or not, I don't know, as I haven't listened to any Koetsus or the like. But what I can say, is that it is staggering value for money. Picked mine up with approx 150 hours for £150. It is very likeable. Strong, well defined bass with a very dynamic presentation. It is ever so slightly on the bright side in my system but this only comes across on certain recordings. Most of the time that didn't bother me as I found the presentation exciting and engaging - it made me want to play more music.

The ZYX R50 Bloom is perhaps a slightly more complex character and has yet to fully reveal its charms to me. It doesn't have the brightness of the MC25 - its presentation is exceptionally smooth with a very expansive soundstage. I suspect it is a cart you could listen to all day long without being fatigued. However, as a snap judgement, for me the MC25FL has a bit more sparkle in the midband which I found immediately appealing.

I have decided to keep the MC25FL on the arm for a couple of weeks to see how I get on - I will then give the ZYX a two week workout so I can make a more substantial comparison between the two.

I must say that I am sad to say goodbye to my MP-50. It has been an immensely reliable performer, excelling equally on classical or rock. I would love to keep it but economics dictate that I can't, so it is on it's way to a new home - hope you enjoy it as much as me Macca!

Geoff very kindly bought up a couple of bits of kit for us to listen to. It was the first time I had heard a Graham Slee phono stage and I was immensely impressed with his Era V Gold. It is available from £370 new, depending on what power supply you choose. I would be so bold as to say that it is a no-brainer at that price. Wonderfully smooth, neutral and totally uncoloured presentation. I really wasn't expecting that from a solid-state stage!

Geoff also mounted his ADC 10E cart (mk?) which for me, gave a very similar presentation to my MP-50, so I love it! :D

[Macca]

Interesting outcome, Jules - and at last! Thought I was never going to get my hands on that MP50! Back in the 'nineties I went from a Nag MP30 to a Goldring Eroica and found much the same as you did - more sophisticated with complex music but not quite balls out enough for heavy rock. Although that may have been the cart as the Eroica seems not well regarded, generally.

[Audio Al]

Nice one

Some AOS assistance

These days are fun :D

[John]

Sounds like a great session

[julesd68]

Thought I was never going to get my hands on that MP50!

ha ha - I've got a feeling you will love it, but if you don't, return to sender!! :D

[morris_minor]

Geoff very kindly bought up a couple of bits of kit for us to listen to. It was the first time I had heard a Graham Slee phono stage and I was immensely impressed with his Era V Gold. It is available from £370 new, depending on what power supply you choose. I would be so bold as to say that it is a no-brainer at that price. Wonderfully smooth, neutral and totally uncoloured presentation. I really wasn't expecting that from a solid-state stage!

If you think the Era Gold V is good, Julian, have a listen to its successor, the Reflex (versions for MM and MC). This is a stonking little phono amp. You can borrow one from the GS forum guys . .

[julesd68]

Yes I would be interested to hear more Graham Slee gear in the future - I can see why you took a punt on the Proprius amps Bob!

[morris_minor]

Indeed! The more I hear of Graham's kit the more I like it. I've got an Era Gold V in the lounge system and a Reflex M in the study with a Solo Ultra Linear headphone amp. That's a really involving and musical combination. In the pipeline is a pre-amp and a couple of DACs. I would imagine the system synergy between that lot would be pretty amazing. As usual it'll be a try-before-you-buy home demo! Better start saving :0)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[julesd68]

I don't have a lens that can get really close to my cart but here's a pic of the MC25FL in place. Not that I place too much value on the way kit looks, but it does gel very nicely with the Source - it's livery is also gold and black, and the bottom of the cart looks like it has been "carved" in the same style as the Source's wooden plinth. Luvverly. - it was obviously meant to be :D

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8487/8223927978_97e9840c05_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34449145@N05/8223927978/)

[walpurgis]

How's the Ortofon going Julian?

You've had a bit of time to adjust to it and I wondered what kind of impression your MC experience was making.

Geoff.

[Rowlf]

Julesd68, Zxy Bloom is a bit of a strange one. It is the bottom of the Zxy line but it isn't cheap at all. I too find it languid and a bit too smooth without the highs and low that you will like to experience when listening through the whole album. Imagine watching a Robert Redford box set.

The MP50 though is an acquired taste although when presented with the right material, the bugger is hard to beat. My mate absolutely adores it.

[julesd68]

How's the Ortofon going Julian?

Hi Geoff,

Not all that great to be honest. During our listening session, as you know, I was initially quite impressed but now that slightly prominent middband is not so enjoyable and starting to bug me on all kinds of recordings. In my system it has an edge, a hardness that is spoiling my full enjoyment of an lp. Also finding a sibilance on female vocals. Never had these problems with the MP50. It's also not quite versatile enough for me as suspected - a good enough performer with classical but lacking "drive" on my rock recordings.

So what to do? :(

[julesd68]

Julesd68, Zxy Bloom is a bit of a strange one. It is the bottom of the Zxy line but it isn't cheap at all. I too find it languid and a bit too smooth without the highs and low that you will like to experience when listening through the whole album. Imagine watching a Robert Redford box set.

The MP50 though is an acquired taste although when presented with the right material, the bugger is hard to beat. My mate absolutely adores it.

You summed up my feelings on the ZYX in a nutshell James!

Well the MP50 is a taste that I have definitely acquired - I can't imagine what there is not to like about it, again, based only on results in my system. Sadly for me, it has a new home now!

[Macca]

mmmm....MP50 :eyebrows: It really is excellent.

But I feel a bit bad now :( - I thought you had found a significantly better MC. What about a brand new MP500? Some of these MC carts can be real prima donnas it seems.

[julesd68]

I am delighted you are enjoying it Mart! :)

I have long been singing its praises but there are very few of them around ...

Never mind, I'm going to try some more inexpensive second-hand MC's before heading back to MM territory.

It's all progress, of a kind!

[OneyedK]

So what to do? :(
I'd say, try borrowing another SUT.
From what you describe, I suspect a cartridge/SUT mismatch.

From the Puresound website:
"The transformers have a step up ratio of 1:36 switchable to 1:18 and therefore allow for the adjustment of cartridge loading between 36 and 144 ohms."

When switched to 1:18, a 33kOhm resistor parallel on the output should do the trick.

But I'd try a different SUT, 1:36 is a lot to maintain decent quality, too much windings.
--> favouring mid-band-frequencies

[julesd68]

I'm not convinced there's a problem with the SUT but not saying it's impossible ...
Geoff brought along one of his SUT's when we set up the cart and I didn't really notice any difference in presentation.

I think I really need to try some other carts since I have so little experience with MC's ...

[julesd68]

Maybe the ever helpful Guy can comment on the SUT & cart matching - paging Mr Sergeant!! :)

[julesd68]

Well, after the world's shortest ever experiment with MC's, the MC25FL and the T10 SUT are going to be sold!

I'm heading back to the land of MM and have a Garrott P77i with 10 hours on the clock winging its way to me as we speak :eyebrows:

[walpurgis]

Oh dear Julian.

Don't dismiss the MC thing so quickly, there are many other options.
Failing that, you could always try a Decca. That might give you a shock!


Geoff.

[julesd68]

I think the really decent options are probably beyond my budget Geoff!

I'm coming to the conclusion that a top of the line MM is a better option than a modest MC. It's going to be some time before I can afford a really superior MC option.

Judging by the two carts we've looked at, I'm also feeling that my MP-50 gave me a more natural, organic sound. True, the MC's do the air and seperation thang but somehow I feel that this is over engineered and the MM experience is closer to that of live music in my system.

And yes, would love to try a Decca sometime!

[synsei]

Yours is an interesting experience Jules. I've been thinking about acquiring an MC cart for a while now but my 900IGC sounds so good in my system I worry that I might be disappointed. Like yourself I would not be able afford a top flight MC cart and I have the added handicap that I would need to source a more suitable arm as well. Perhaps I should stay with what I have for the moment :eyebrows:

[julesd68]

It's the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

If you do decide to give it a go, don't get rid of your old cart too quickly like wot I did!! :doh:

[synsei]

Received loud & clear, over & out!!! ;)

[DSJR]

Dave, in my experience, the SME III really isn't happy with most MC types, even if you load the headshell and counterweights with maximum ballast. Far better to enjoy the 900IGC (until the stylus expires anyway) and then look for either the Ortofon Concord "Wand" or a 2M Bronze/Black, or AT150. Actually, if the MP300 and 500 are as highly compliant as I remember their predecessors being, if they'll fit the shell, these should be good t go as well. Of course, the old ultimate for one of these arms would be a Shure V15 V, possibly with SAS stylus fitted...

[synsei]

I do have a damping trough for the SME Dave, which does expand the choice of carts I can use but even so, I think I will stay with MM's for a little while yet. I have a Shure M95 sitting in a draw awaiting a new stylus and I believe LPGear stock a hyper-elliptical for it so that may be the direction I will go once the Goldring stylus bites the dust. I'm on a budget as always so this is probably the most cost effective route for me. Failing that, I could fit the damping trough and try out a Rega Carbon ;)

[walpurgis]

Well, I've ended up buying Julian's MC25 FL.

I liked what I heard when I visited his place, I didn't think he was so impressed.

However, I think my system characteristics may suit it better. It'll be interesting to see how it compares to the ZYX R100 I have installed currently. I'll do the comparison tonight.

It'll be running through: Mission 774 arm (lightly fluid damped), on a hefty Toshiba SR-370 DD TT (that's the one featured in HFW a month or so back), through a pair of ART Audio SUTs into a Graham Slee ERA Gold V, then through my Miex Xing MC-9 TVC pre-amp, into a Monarchy Audio SM-70 Pro, Class A power amp, driving my Tannoy Cheviot 3128s.

I shall report back.......watch this space!

[the engine]

I'm a bit sorry I fought the MC25 FL'S case with you now matey......I love mine but to be honest I admit it's a close run thing between that and my ortofon 2m black.
The point was though that the black is circa £500 while the MC 25 can be had for not even half that.
Plus I have spent £700 on an MC cart and liked it less than the MC25. So....as you said " if it ain't broke etc " Still .....that's the joy of hi fi eh ? Live n learn.
Hope you click with it Geoff.

[walpurgis]

The MC25 FL is installed and playing (and may be staying).

It sounds lovely, obviously musical and sweet, no nasties at all. It's perfectly happy in the Mission 774 arm. Nicely open sound, not as ruthlessly revealing as the ZYX R100H I just took out of the arm, but that sounds rather more like a Decca anyway.

It seems to have the Ortofon family sound, slightly reminiscent of the MC20E and the old SL15E, but with more weight and no sizzle at the top, good ambience too. Very pleasant, this could be a 'keeper' for the collection, it certainly suits the characteristics of my Tannoys. I've also noticed that there's hardly any surface noise coming through, a good sign. I know a lot of owners tend to hang onto these, not many around second hand.

I think the issue with the MC25 FL when used in Julian's system was a mismatch of some sort, call it synergy if you like and the ZYX R50 Bloom sounded even less happy.

Geoff

[the engine]

PHEW !
I feel less guilty now....:mex:

[julesd68]

No worries - all part of the fun! Geoff has a cart that he likes now and I've got one that I like ... :eyebrows:

[Floyddroid]

Had many cartridges over the years. some amazing, some dire. You are on to a safe bet with an Ortofon. It's like beer, John smiths is John Smiths most places you go to a degree, but if you want to get a bit adventurous ya gots to stick yer neck out. On the whole good MM's to a certain price point are better than many budget MC's. But a good MC will always rip the bollock's off the best MM. Discuss!

[julesd68]

What I would like to know is whether even the best MC's can have the drive that the best MM's have got. So far, I've not heard an MC in my system that can cope with a bit of Iron Maiden or Rush - they are just way too "polite", lacking in drive and energy. My new Garrott cart does Rush and Rachmaninov equally well ...

[walpurgis]

I have a feeling that question will get a lot of response Julian.

By the way the MC25 FL is demonstrating great drive and weight in my system. Just a good match I suppose. Must bung one of the ZYXs in to get some comparison.


Geoff.

[julesd68]

Great that we've both ended up with carts we're happy with Geoff - think it's down to that funny thing called synergy again, as both of the mc's I tried were good technical matches on paper.

It's difficult to describe, but the way that the music just leaps out of the speaker with my Garrott is amazing - it's almost as thought the P77 relishes the music it is being fed - it just wants to play! I think the best analogy I can make is that the P77 makes the vinyl almost sound like live music, whereas the other two carts felt like they were playing recordings of the music. I just feel so much more involved in the music now.

[walpurgis]

Julian, I should invite you round to my 'pigsty' for a listen. Maybe when I get back from holiday. I'm off tomorrow having a week or so at my brothers place in a gorgeous part of Cornwall.

Geoff.

[julesd68]

Hi Geoff - have a fab time in Cornwall and hope to hook up with you sometime on your return ...

[fordy]

I have some experience with an MC25e and nag MP500 and can understand the OP's dilemma. I didn't keep my MC25e because I also thought it a bit hard and forward in the mids, despite it generally sounding open and neutral (and that was back when I went through a Lyra and AT phase). I've had probably around 30 MC's over the last few years and not many stay.

Now to the MP500. I bought this cheap in Tokyo (like a 3rd of the UK price) to see what all the fuss was about. Stunningly good cartridge IMO. Warmish and inviting and of the Koetsu and SPU mold. The first time I heard it was playing Rickie Lee Jones and it was captivating on vocals, so much so that every time I try to rotate another cart in, I miss it. You have to be into something like a Shelter 501 or a Benz Glider to better it and even then if its the slight hue to the mids you love, they'll be a miss too.

A cart I'm using now is a Phasetech P3 which does power and grunt, but seems to also have a way with vocals too. It's bedding in nicely and I'm not missing the MP500 or SPU Royal at all. This brand gets good reviews but seems to be a bit rare, not read of many forum users anyway. The big brother P1 was described to me as being very SPU like so the sound balance might be a brand trait.

Anyway, lesson - don't sell your carts on until you are totally sure you have found better, even then I tend to keep them anyway in case a new arm, TT or SUT proves to make a better match.

[Halfway Tree]

Julian, I have an old Garrott P77 (given to me by David Manley many years ago). Unfortunately it came off second best in an encounter with a small child and has a kinked cantilever. The stylus has low hours - any idea where I could get it repaired? If my memory serves me well this cartridge had plenty of drive, but also much of the airiness of an MC.

[julesd68]

Hi Gordon, yes it's a killer cart in my opinion! I would drop a PM to Dominic Harper of this parish - he'll sort it out ...

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11829&highlight=dominic+harper

[Stratmangler]

Julian, I have an old Garrott P77 (given to me by David Manley many years ago). Unfortunately it came off second best in an encounter with a small child and has a kinked cantilever. The stylus has low hours - any idea where I could get it repaired? If my memory serves me well this cartridge had plenty of drive, but also much of the airiness of an MC.

Drop Dominic over at Northwest Analogue a line - he has done repairs for a number of members here, and all are happy with the work he has done.

[Halfway Tree]

Thank you!

If the cost isn't prohibitive I'd love to use it in my Michell Hydraulic Reference again.