View Full Version : Live versus recorded sound
One of the points of departure for the evaluation of a hifi system is comparison with the live music experience. This was brought to mind yesterday when I was in St James’s, Spanish Place in London for a service that included plainchant and polyphony from the renaissance onwards.
Sat in the forward part of the nave, the acoustics were terrible! With the (excellent) choir singing from the loft at the back of the church it was clear that the frequency response of the space was a peaky as the Alps. When the organ played the effect could be quite bizarre; running up a scale would have the building shaking on some notes, with little volume on others. Sound coming from the front fared little better; it was as if speakers were speaking into a fog.
I came to the conclusion that, from where I sat at least, that only very slow plainchant would succeed acoustically in that building. It was rather with relief that I got home and put on a CD or two last night; some live music experiences are much worse that reproduced sound!
I hear what you say, but for me how live music 'sounds' is only part of the reason for being there and a smaller part at that ;)
Agree with Tim Live music is not just about the sound its about the whole experience.
I hear what you say, but for me how live music 'sounds' is only part of the reason for being there and a smaller part at that ;)
Oh, most certainly true. But there comes a point at which bad acoustics becomes an intrusive detraction from the experience!
Contrast what I experienced yesterday for example, with a purpose built concert hall such as Birmingham Symphony Hall. One can sit there and focus totally on the musical experience (as well as sharing in the community of the audience reaction to what they're experiencing).
St James' is late victorian is it not? They had mostly forgotton all about the principles of building good acoustics into buildings by then. Knowledge that was common in classical times and through the medaeval period.
hifi_dave
25-11-2012, 11:46
It is what it is, I suppose. Music in a reverberent church sounds the way you heard it and that's part of the experience. If it was Hi-Fi you might not be too happy but as it was the live experience, all you can do is enjoy it for what it is and/or not visit that venue again.
St James' is late victorian is it not? They had mostly forgotton all about the principles of building good acoustics into buildings by then. Knowledge that was common in classical times and through the medaeval period.
Yes, it is late Victorian.
I occasionally sing with a group that does early music around the parishes of the North; once you've done a few, you soon get to "diagnose" a building from a singer's point of view. There are some places where your voice just disappears from you, and you can barely hear the person singing next to you; there are other places that behave almost as if you've got you own personal monitor and can hear the balance of the choir perfectly.
That's from the choir's point of view; there's also what the punter-in-the-pew hears to take account of as well! It's always useful to have a friend or family member around at rehearsal time to check that what you think left your mouth actually arrived in one piece. You often find that buildings have some particularly sweet spots as well as dead areas; yesterday's experience may have been of a particularly poor spot.
I don't enjoy concerts very much, I love music but the pushing and often being sandwiched between people. Get close to the stage and your pinned in tight. Even at a seated event you leave with your ears ringing,the loud blaring volume makes everything run together and makes vocals sound like an echo chamber more often than not.
I like a small outside event,local blues bands with lots of room,I once saw Bonny Raitt in Denver at the capital in the 80's. That was so wonderful, you could hear every word and note at night under the stars.
More often than not I would rather listen to studio recordings with few exceptions like Live Rust,Framton Comes Alive and the like.
I know I'm probably the exception and not the rule here but it's the honest truth for me.
Get close to the stage and your pinned in tight. Even at a seated event you leave with your ears ringing,the loud blaring volume makes everything run together and makes vocals sound like an echo chamber more often than not.
Blimey, what bands do you go to see Jeff :eek:
WOStantonCS100
26-11-2012, 20:03
I've always snickered silently at the notion that "live sound" is the benchmark for home stereophonic reproduction. I know there are a number of gigging musicians here besides myself and I dare say we'd all have to agree that, at best, live sound is a crap shoot. Sometimes, at the right hall or an intimate club, there is no way any hi-end system will ever compare and likewise, at a blaring arena concert or any show where the sound tech has had a little too much nog, the sound is often beyond horrible. Seems to me the quest should be how to get as much of the master tape onto the consumer end product and then having gear that adds the least amount of coloration to that. Just my 2 cents.... ...now where did I put my wah pedal??? :scratch:
I've never related to the idea that your hifi should sound like 'live music' other than it should be able to reproduce it as it was recorded if it was recorded live.
A hifi in the home allows the artist to do so much more with sound and get that accross to an audience than could ever be done acoustically, live.
And hence live music is something different and is intentionally so.
In the case of presenting what was on at St James' however, it probably was intended to be about the sound and getting the notes and musicality across which sounds like it was rather defeated by the venue. For a performance like that, it would be about the sound for me - looking at a choir stand upright moving their mouths and swaying a bit and some scholarly musos who are probably fairly reserved, whilst sitting still in some pews isn't much of a 'live experience' IMO.
Seems to me the quest should be how to get as much of the master tape onto the consumer end product and then having gear that adds the least amount of coloration to that. Just my 2 cents.... ...now where did I put my wah pedal??? :scratch:
Me too.
People who crave for live music should really look at freeing their time and going to more gigs.
tannoyman
29-11-2012, 11:13
It depends entirely on the building and seating position and whether or not the sound is amplified and how well.
Churches, often favoured recording venues for classical music, can be superb or appalling and sometimes you can have both in the same building at the same concert depending of your seating position.
I regularly visit Kings College Chapel for services or concerts. It has a fabulous accoustic and you get great sound almost regardless of where you sit. It is particularly good in the Quire. However Liverpool Anglican Cathedral can be a mixed bag. At its best, close the front under the central space it can be superb for organ but the 9 second reverberation period can make individual lines difficult to follow partcularly with choral singing. If you sit at the back of the cathedral the sound reaches you after having done several laps of the building and you have noise soup.
On the live versus recorded sound, good live sound is very hard to beat. Indeed I would maintain that in some cases it is not possible to faithfully reproduce a sound. For instance imo there is not a hi fi system on the planet that can truly do justice to the Henry Willis III organ of Liverpool Cathedral which has 10,200 pipes, 152 speaking stops and which can generate 120db spl's with fundamentals down to 8hz (Liverpool has a 64' pedal stop) in what until relatively recently was the largest fully enclosed space in the country. I was a patron of the organ at Liverpool for 25 years and have heard it more than 100 times. It is truly one of the wonders of the musical world - in the right hands.
If like me you do not get to as many live events as you would like then the hi fi system comes into its own big time. Canadian pianist, Glen Gould maintained that good recorded sound was almost always better than a live concert
David :)
I've always snickered silently at the notion that "live sound" is the benchmark for home stereophonic reproduction. I know there are a number of gigging musicians here besides myself and I dare say we'd all have to agree that, at best, live sound is a crap shoot. Sometimes, at the right hall or an intimate club, there is no way any hi-end system will ever compare and likewise, at a blaring arena concert or any show where the sound tech has had a little too much nog, the sound is often beyond horrible. Seems to me the quest should be how to get as much of the master tape onto the consumer end product and then having gear that adds the least amount of coloration to that. Just my 2 cents.... ...now where did I put my wah pedal??? :scratch:
Excellent post Biff.
Agree with you completely, and is the reason why for years I disliked 'live recordings': badly miked, badly mixed and far too much audiaence adulation.
Mind you live recordings are done so much better these days; to the point that good ones can make you feel as if 'you are there'.
tannoyman
01-12-2012, 13:56
Excellent post Biff.
Agree with you completely, and is the reason why for years I disliked 'live recordings': badly miked, badly mixed and far too much audiaence adulation.
Mind you live recordings are done so much better these days; to the point that good ones can make you feel as if 'you are there'.
Hi Barry
I agree. Some live recording today can be the real deal as far as recorded music goes. If you like jazz one I would commend to you would be Chris Barber at Derby Assembly Rooms from 1982.(Timeless Records) A stunning double album of blues and trad jazz. Surprisingly when I met Chris Barber at Wavendon this year he told me that this recording which was done for the Beeb started life as a laser disc.
David :)
julesd68
01-12-2012, 20:07
Simon,
Have you been to St James's Piccadilly? They have a fabulous series of lunchtime concerts which I have enjoyed all that I have been to. Never even considered the acoustic of the building so it must be good!
Simon,
Have you been to St James's Piccadilly? They have a fabulous series of lunchtime concerts which I have enjoyed all that I have been to. Never even considered the acoustic of the building so it must be good!
I'm afraid that I haven't; London is a long way for me, so I'm only there occasionally. Maybe I should arrange some more business trips...
julesd68
01-12-2012, 22:01
Ah yes, only just spotted that you are from the fine city of York!
Do try and get to St Martin-in-the-Fields sometime aswell if you can - great venue for live music ...
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