View Full Version : MM = Low Resolution - Do You Agree?
I've been speaking to James Henriot of Whest Audio recently, and while discussing the purchase of a Whest Ps.20 phonostage, he said that all Whest phonostages are designed for MC, but have the ability to handle MM, and in his opinion, " MM is not good enough for High - Resolution vinyl playback..... it is that simple."
What do you think?
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20625
walpurgis
24-11-2012, 18:16
That's nonsense!
sq225917
24-11-2012, 18:21
I fail so see how a greater mass suspended off the back of the stylus can ever be beneficial to improved sound quality, greater stiction, greater inertia, more bending moment etc etc.
One may prefer how they sound, but in terms of pure accuracy, MC's are just better.
RobbieGong
24-11-2012, 23:27
" MM is not good enough for High - Resolution vinyl playback..... it is that simple."
OTT statement in my opinion and experience......
I fail so see how a greater mass suspended off the back of the stylus can ever be beneficial to improved sound quality, greater stiction, greater inertia, more bending moment etc etc.
One may prefer how they sound, but in terms of pure accuracy, MC's are just better.
I agree in principle.
The problem is that amplifying the tiny signal from a low-output MC cartridge (high-output ones are in 'no man's land', IMO, and thus a waste of time) is costly to do properly. When it's done badly, or less than optimally, you'd be better off listening to MM done properly, using a quality MM tube phono stage (e.g what's found in Croft preamps) and a nice MM cartridge, fitted with a quality stylus, such as some of the current Ortofons (2M Black, etc).
It's much easier (and a darn sight cheaper) getting high-quality sound from a good MM cartridge and partnering phono stage, on a budget, than it is from a low-output MC cartridge. Factor in also how much more demands the latter imposes on tonearms, and again the cost factor it entails ensuring that the right tonearm is used, and it's a no-brainer why many choose the MM route.
Like I said, if I had to choose between MM done well, or MC done poorly (or even to a mediocre level), I know what I'd choose - and also which one would produce the most 'musically accurate' results! ;)
You can get stunningly good sound from an MM cartridge, if you do it right. Therefore, it's not as simple as MC = more accurate than MM. There are various important factors to take into consideration, Simon.
Marco.
walpurgis
24-11-2012, 23:51
Has anybody got comparative weights for MM cartridge magnets and MC coil assemblies?
I would not have thought there'd be a lot of difference. The magnets used in MM cartridges are tiny.
You'd also have to take into account cantilever lengths, fulcrum points and suspension stiffness/damping characteristics.
Perhaps Dominic can shed some light?
I personally have come across MCs which I would describe as "low resolution" and I own MMs which are very much "high resolution" and better than many popular MCs!
(by the way, are Decca's "high resolution"? Or are they just too 'different' to comment on.)
I personally have come across MCs which I would describe as "low resolution" and I own MMs which are very much "high resolution" and better than many popular MCs!
I agree, Geoff. Therefore, in answer to Andrew's question, I'd say "no", as there are many different factors to consider. It's not a 'black or white' thing.
(by the way, are Decca's "high resolution"? Or are they just too 'different' to comment on.)
Deccas are 'moving iron', so not quite one or the other (MM or MC). However, sonically, when a Decca cartridge is optimised in the right system, there's no question that they are musically accurate, and above all, huge fun.
Note that I used the term 'musically', as opposed to 'sonically' accurate. The two are quite different! One you can measure faithfully for, the other you can't...but I know which one matters most to me! ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
25-11-2012, 00:22
Having owned a number of Deccas, I would actually say, used correctly there is no doubt that they can produce a "high resolution" interpretation of music. Just my opinion. ('moving iron' I suppose is rather similar in principle to 'induced magnet' as per ADC cartridges, I'm very fond of those too)
I wonder how many of you that have replied to this thread are using an MM cartridge as their main system cartridge?
Well, I've currently got one MC cartridge (a very good one) and six vintage MMs, which are in regular use, some a few folk here would laugh at as being merely 'disco' cartridges, but not I can assure you, if they heard them in a proper system! ;)
Marco.
I agree, Geoff. Therefore, in answer to Andrew's question, I'd say "no", as there are many different factors to consider. It's not a 'black or white' thing.
Deccas are 'moving iron', so not quite one or the other (MM or MC). However, sonically, when a Decca cartridge is optimised in the right system, there's no question that they are musically accurate, and above all, huge fun.
Note that I used the term 'musically', as opposed to 'sonically' accurate. The two are quite different! One you can measure faithfully for, the other you can't...but I know which one matters most to me! ;)
Marco.
Excellent reply Marco.
If the OP really means moving magnet, rather than fixed coil, then I would have to think about it carefully.
Certainly there are (or were) some wonderful fixed coil designs out there: the ADCs, AKGs, B&Os, the Grado's plus of course the (inimitable) Decca's
walpurgis
25-11-2012, 00:43
I wonder how many of you that have replied to this thread are using an MM cartridge as their main system cartridge?
Well, I haven't used an MM as my main cartridge (excluding Deccas, which are different anyway) for about twenty years, but I do keep giving my ADCs an airing now and then. Strictly speaking they are not MMs though.
I wonder how many of you that have replied to this thread are using an MM cartridge as their main system cartridge?
Ha! Not that many then...
I own mostly Moving coils, but to discount MM cartridges as a whole is a mistake. The key is proper set up in the proper arm. I run a Sonus Gold Blue in a Mayware Formula 4 arm that absolutely sings as one of two tables in my vintage rig#2. I have also spent time with the Ortofon Black m2 that is another fine MM cartridge. IMHO
Regards,
Jim
sq225917
25-11-2012, 01:40
I don't think anyone is discounting them out of hand, as I said I'm sure they achieve more than acceptable results.
Rare Bird
25-11-2012, 02:56
I do keep giving my ADCs an airing now and then. Strictly speaking they are not MMs though.
Induced magnet hence they are superb trackers at very low force..I have absolutly no intentions in using anything else other than the ADC '26'. Superb cartridges.. However i wouldnt mind trying an ADC 'XLM' at some point, they track at an amazing 0.4grms. :eek: even so i'm sticking with the '26' it's a superb match for my arm...
I get on well with James he is a nice guy but sometimes he does come up with sweaping statements
I had some expensive MC cartridges in my system that sounded wonderful but I am very happy with my Acutex MM, the cartridge just rocks like nothing else I heard. people can laugh and make silly comments but I really could not care I am very happy with the sound I get
walpurgis
25-11-2012, 09:45
Anybody here have experience of the Grace F9E or JVC X1?
They were renowned MMs years ago. Not tried them myself.
I get on well with James he is a nice guy but sometimes he does come up with sweaping statements...
I also think that James is a great guy, and his customer service is virtually second to none. However, like you say, he is prone to a spot of absolutism.
He also doesn't rate SUTs with MC cartridges, when used through a MM phono stage, yet almost everyone I know who owns one of his (undoubtedly excellent) phono stages prefers the former arrangement, by a large margin, compared with going directly into the MC input...
Go figure! ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
25-11-2012, 11:53
Anybody here have experience of the Grace F9E or JVC X1?
They were renowned MMs years ago. Not tried them myself.
Hi Geoff
I used to own a Grace 'F9' great cartridges.. I once bought a Mission '774SM' with JVC 'MC-2' but the cantilever was bust hence never heard it..Had a JVC 'Z1' MM that was ok.
Well, marco may dispute whether I have a "decent system," :lol: (I don't care), but I do believe a well matched fixed coil cartridge can deliver good music. The thing is, vinyl often demands more to fully "suspend disbelief" and the more "direct" quality of cartridges like the Decca series can really do well. GOOD MC types really need good step ups of whatever flavour takes your fancy and this COSTS.
Sorry to single you out Marco, but your decent (VERY decent I'm sure :lol:) cartridge and step-up costs a good few grand and the SPU being what it is, a pukka arm is needed too..
There ARE great fun fixed coil types though, which retain the drama, even if the refinement goes out the window. Depending on taste, the Stanton 500 V3/680 DJ series and Pickering siblings, Ortofon OM Pro (the Beeb replaced their SC35's with these) and related GT and other models can give the drama and vitality in the music, but so often getting the delicasy tends to dilute this drama into a safe "warmth" - think Koetsu Red of old.
All great fun though :lol:
GOOD MC types really need good step ups of whatever flavour takes your fancy and this COSTS.
Sorry to single you out Marco, but your decent (VERY decent I'm sure :lol:) cartridge and step-up costs a good few grand and the SPU being what it is, a pukka arm is needed too..
I completely agree, Dave, which I why I wrote what I did earlier, in response to Simon:
It's much easier (and a darn sight cheaper) getting high-quality sound from a good MM cartridge and partnering phono stage, on a budget, than it is from a low-output MC cartridge. Factor in also how much more demands the latter imposes on tonearms, and again the cost factor it entails ensuring that the right tonearm is used, and it's a no-brainer why many choose the MM route.
The combined cost of my tonearm, cartridge and SUT is just under £5k, and that's excluding the cost of the phono stage in the Croft, which has been seriously modified and upgraded from stock. Others on here have spent that and more on similar quality, but different kit.
However, that's the sort of expenditure which is needed in order to do proper justice to the advantages that quality MC cartridges can bring to music-making with vinyl. Like I said earlier, if I had to choose, I'd always have MM 'done really well', than MC 'done less than optimally'.
Furthermore, whenever I play with my vintage MM cartridges, the sound that they make always puts a smile on my face... Sure, they have nowhere near the same resolution as the Royal GM, through my ST-80SE SUT, and are a little rough around the edges, but they get to the 'soul' of the music, and in their own way, make it fun to listen to, which for me is what it's all about... :)
Honestly, you'd be gob-smacked at just how good a Stanton 500AL can sound on the end of a £2100 tonearm!! ;)
Marco.
Anybody here have experience of the Grace F9E or JVC X1?
They were renowned MMs years ago. Not tried them myself.
I have heard a 'hybrid' Grace, consisting of the F14 body fitted with the stylus assembly of the F9E.
Very good - it 'ticked all the boxes', yet didn't engage me. You can read about my findings here: http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/13/07/2012/living-with-a-chimera-the-grace-f-14brmr-cartridge/
I have also spent some time with the JVC X-1. A superb cartridge; but my listening was done some 35 years ago, so were I to hear it today my impressions could well be different.
I remember the X1 all but taking my fillings out at the time. I remember the well reviewed and cheaper Z2 being a goodie though, and apparently the X2 was a clear improvement as well :)
I remember the X1 all but taking my fillings out at the time. I remember the well reviewed and cheaper Z2 being a goodie though, and apparently the X2 was a clear improvement as well :)
I believe the JVC X-1 was designed for CD4 quadrophony, whereby the two additional channels were on an ultrasonic carrier. Cartridges designed for CD4 had to have a flat frequency response up to 60kHz.
From memory the X-1 was bright, but not "filling loosening". At the time I was using a Sugden C51/A51 class A combination into Quad 57's. The X-1 was fitted to a SME3009 mounted on a Thorens 124/II.
walpurgis
25-11-2012, 19:58
Hi Geoff
I used to own a Grace 'F9' great cartridges.. I once bought a Mission '774SM' with JVC 'MC-2' but the cantilever was bust hence never heard it..Had a JVC 'Z1' MM that was ok.
Hi Andre,
shame the MC-2 was stuffed, they are a sweet sounding cartridge.
I still have a Z-1 S and it sounds remarkable for a cheap conical tipped MM, but the X-1 was a very different proposition. As I said, I've not tried one, but I can understand Dave's comment. It had a very extended top end as I'm fairly sure it was designed for CD4 Discrete, quadrophonic record play, which if I remember drew the quad info from the record above 20kHz prior to decoding.
walpurgis
25-11-2012, 20:00
You pipped me to the post on the X-1 details Barry!
The early Shibata tip was the main issue here, since it was sensitive to groove debris and many cartridges thus fitted had an edginess in the sonics lacking if these cartridges had later profile tips fitted. The Shibata went through at least three different profiles I recall..
walpurgis
25-11-2012, 20:57
The early Shibata tip was the main issue here, since it was sensitive to groove debris and many cartridges thus fitted had an edginess in the sonics lacking if these cartridges had later profile tips fitted. The Shibata went through at least three different profiles I recall..
I vaguely recall early 'line contact' type styli having radial profiles, straight contact profiles (as per cutting lathe) and compound radius profiles. Whether that included the Shibata developments I don't know. I believe modern profiles tend to be of the compound radii type (but I could be wrong).
There really can't be a simple conclusion as to which type of cartridge is better, as has been said it depends......
I was at Dom's (Northwest Analogue), we listened to my Garrott P77i to which Dom had grafted a boron cantilever and re-attached the original diamond tip. It sounds really good - I mean REALLY good, we also listened to a Koetsu Rosewood. The Koetsu sounded different, arguably better in some respects but at the same time there's no way I would go wow, the Koetsu is a serious improvement. The same goes for my London Reference, there are aspects where it is better but others where it is not.
Here are some thoughts:
MCs have more air - yes this is often the case but they also often have a rising treble response so is the extra air accurate?
Anyone over 40 will will likely have falling treble acuity so the air aspect of MCs vs MMs will be lost on many. Youngsters may have a different view to their broader range hearing.
MMs often have a punchy and more dynamic bass IME or at least the ones I like do.
Some say MMs sound more natural. It's a matter of taste and for the individual to decide. A good example of either type will beat a poor example of the other type.
The Black Adder
25-11-2012, 22:23
MM is not good enough for High - Resolution vinyl playback..... it is that simple."
A mighty statement... IMO he's talking rubbish. Different styles of presentation and so are not comparable (in that way)... Different systems, synergy etc... So it depends if you like what you hear. He should know that too. I had one of his stages once, it was nice but Nick Gorham's stage worked in my system much, much better.
There really can't be a simple conclusion as to which type of cartridge is better, as has been said it depends......
I was at Dom's (Northwest Analogue), we listened to my Garrott P77i to which Dom had grafted a boron cantilever and re-attached the original diamond tip. It sounds really good - I mean REALLY good, we also listened to a Koetsu Rosewood. The Koetsu sounded different, arguably better in some respects but at the same time there's no way I would go wow, the Koetsu is a serious improvement. The same goes for my London Reference, there are aspects where it is better but others where it is not.
Here are some thoughts:
MCs have more air - yes this is often the case but they also often have a rising treble response so is the extra air accurate?
Anyone over 40 will will likely have falling treble acuity so the air aspect of MCs vs MMs will be lost on many. Youngsters may have a different view to their broader range hearing.
MMs often have a punchy and more dynamic bass IME or at least the ones I like do.
Some say MMs sound more natural. It's a matter of taste and for the individual to decide. A good example of either type will beat a poor example of the other type.
Most MMs (that is fixed coil cartridges) have a high coil inductance leading to a high frequency peak, usually just beyond 20kHz. Whilst this is above the hearing of most over 40's, its presence can be heard. To remove this resonance the cartridge normally has to be loaded with some additional capacitance.
I don't agree MMs necessarily sound more natural, but would agree they can often have a punchier bass and 'dynamic' sound.
Couldn't agree more with your final sentence.
I like MM more often than not.
MC can be a lot of bother and if you want a really good one your going to pay through the nose for it. And it won't sound better than a really good MM just different in most cases.
Dominic Harper
26-11-2012, 08:05
Clive has summed it up pretty well in my humble opinion, but I would like to add many fixed coil designs are classed as budget carts compared to expensive mc 's and as such manufacturers often compromise the design by fitting inexpensive cantilevers and tips.
I say this because I have modded so many cartridges with better cantilevers and tips and the results are often very surprising.
Loading a mm cartridge is important. Most phono stages employ a capacitor to do this but do not consider the cables used by the owner. MM carts do not have a rising treble response, this is an artifact of cable and phono stage. MC carts do have a rising but extended response and as such give the impression of air and space.
Which you prefer is down to system matching and personal taste. It is unfair to say one technology is superior to the other, they are just differing ways to skin a cat.
Rare Bird
26-11-2012, 08:33
That's right Dominic. I've used MC's in the past & although i do appreciate they were very good sounding cartridges, they are not to my taste. The music i listern to give me what i want to hear from certain MM designs i favour. As you say nothing to do with one being better than the other. I am from the Low mass arm/High Compliant Cart mind set anyway..
However we all know that snobbery does exist with MC fanboyz, looking down on MM designs regardless of how good a lot of those designs maybe, of course is just redicularse..
Put James' comment into context: he doesn't use any old MC, he uses Ortofon A90s and gets through them at a rate of knots. Therefore his baseline is at a VERY high standard of replay. The fact is, you don't find many MMs at that quality level, so what would he be comparing his MCs with?
I also found that he doesn't like SUTs, which goes against everything I have discovered about low output MCs. It's a very personal thing and his opinion is just one of many, although his Whest phono stages demand that his is taken seriously.
EDIT: I've just found this, based on the A90. I want one!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wdHds3GuHek/TeVyLuD8SGI/AAAAAAAABT8/rB7Ili-Bukg/s320/xpression310x230px.png
The Black Adder
26-11-2012, 09:09
well at £3500 I should think it sounds a bit better than most other MC's.. lol
I was looking at the Xpression, Martin, before I bought my SPU Royal GM, as I could've got a good deal on one. It's certainly an interesting cartridge, and no doubt would sound superb, but a little too expensive to take a punt on, not knowing if it will be entirely to your taste or not, or even if it would suit your T/T and system!
SPUs are a known quantity now to me, much as Shelters are to you, therefore we can upgrade within the product range, in the fairly safe knowledge that we're going to like the end result :)
I also agree with Dom's comments, particularly here:
I would like to add many fixed coil designs are classed as budget carts compared to expensive mc 's and as such manufacturers often compromise the design by fitting inexpensive cantilevers and tips. I say this because I have modded so many cartridges with better cantilevers and tips and the results are often very surprising.
Indeed. You need to hear what a so-called 'lowly, budget' MM can do, when fitted with a higher quality cantilever and tip. A case in point is the humble Goldring G800 - an entirely different beast, when suitably modified! :eek:
In the new year, I intend to have the same thing done with my Stanton 500AL, which sounds stupidly good, even in stock form, on the end of a top-notch tonearm (as I'm sure Dom will attest to - remember, Dom, when you heard it on my T/T that day?) but I suspect could sound stunning with a 'proper' cantilever and tip, as the rest of the cartridge appears to be produced to a very high sonic standard.
Therefore, we'll 'unleash the beast', so to speak, and hopefully in turn, unearth another 'high-end giant-killer'!! ;)
Marco.
hifi_dave
26-11-2012, 10:21
It's not really possible to do any meaningful comparisons MM v MC as there are few MM cartridges built with no compromise. MMs tend to be budget cartridges and the product range price ends where the MCs begin. This means that MMs are built to a price and nowhere near as well made as they could be.
I'm struggling to think of many 'high quality' MMs - all I can manage are the top Nagaoka, Rega Exact and the various London/Decca models.
London/Decca and Rega have fixed stylus assemblies and the Nagaoka are bolted on. IMO, this is one compromise of MM which is negated by these models.
Orto 2M Black, AT150ANV too but yes there's aren't that many, a lot depends on whether you include MI in MM. Grado has a major cartridge lineup.
Maybe though it's fashion as much as anything else that dictates the better tips and cantilevers are mainly fitted to MC.
hifi_dave
26-11-2012, 10:47
It's not just styli and cantilevers as many MCs use unsophisticated styli and simple alloy cantilevers. I believe that fixed styli assemblies, suitable body materials and high quality coils are also vital to the performance of a cartridge.
If we had more no compromise MMs or MI cartridges, we could make better judgements against MC. If all the high tech/cutting edge technoloogy used in the best MCs was applied to a MM, we might be getting somewhere and wouldn't need an extra stage of amplification.
The Black Adder
26-11-2012, 11:28
Just for shits and giggles I'd like to audition an SPU with a Decca gold... Just to find out how they drive the music. Glenn Croft has always used Decca's so to me a Decca might be the best in terms of synergy with the croft MM stage but the SPU looks bloody lovely to boot!
The Decca's confuse me slightly as some say use a Decapod and some don't.
Until I come up with a decision I'll have to keep using the Shure V15 III/JICO SAS. Not sure if anyone would part ex it against any of the above either.
Dominic Harper
26-11-2012, 11:54
I have just modded a SPU with new alu cantilever and FG II tip. In my opinion the SPU was a clear winner over the Decca ffss that I compared it against. The Decca was a bit limited in its bass extension. It was very fast and had a beautiful treble response but for sheer believability and grunt the SPU won.
Obviously this is just an opinion.
Interesting... I love Deccas, but have always preferred SPUs, for some of the reasons you mention. The Royal GM has an FG-type stylus on it, although Ortofon call it a 'Replicant'. I'm unsure what the cantilever is made from, though - certainly the cartridge sounds stunning!
Having heard now what an FG stylus does with music (especially in terms of detail retrieval, tracking ability and significantly reduced distortion, notably at end of side on albums), I don't think that I could live long-term with anything else...
Btw, did you miss this earlier:
In the new year, I intend to have the same thing done with my Stanton 500AL, which sounds stupidly good, even in stock form, on the end of a top-notch tonearm (as I'm sure Dom will attest to - remember, Dom, when you heard it on my T/T that day?)
I'd appreciate your comments :cool:
Marco.
Dominic Harper
26-11-2012, 12:05
Sorry Marco. I did see that but forgot to comment.
The 500AL did sound very good and would be interesting to see what could be done. It does have a pretty FAT cantilever if I remember correctly. This may cause some problems with regard to upgrading the cantilever assembly. I'm sure I can do something with it though.
Dominic Harper
26-11-2012, 12:07
The Royal tip is very similar to the FG S tips I use!
Yep, the canti is a very chunky thang... It's because the Stanton is designed for DJ and studio use, where it's being used by ham-fisted daftees!
However, I think that it could really sing, when fitted with a high-quality stylus and cantilever (there's a fab sound in there, just waiting to 'escape'), so that's a wee project for next year ;)
Marco.
The Royal tip is very similar to the FG S tips I use!
Thought it might be! Quality, aren't they? :)
And considering that the Royal 'only' costs £1.5k new. Normally, those types of styli are found on much more expensive designs.
Marco.
kininigin
26-11-2012, 12:28
Yep, the canti is a very chunky thang... It's because the Stanton is designed for DJ and studio use, where it's being used by ham-fisted daftees!
However, I think that it could really sing, when fitted with a high-quality stylus and cantilever (there's a fab sound in there, just waiting to 'escape'), so that's a wee project for next year ;)
Marco.
I will look forward to hearing about that Marco,sounds like an interesting idea.
I have thought about getting the ATP-2 a new canti!! If i don't sell it,i may well give it a go.What about the SC35C? Since i have 2 styli for it,do you think that would benifit from a new canti or is it not as simple as that? Maybe dom would be in a better position to answer that?
daytona600
26-11-2012, 12:58
speaking of high end MM cartridges , i have used a cartridgeman musicmaker LE for quite a while now , use both MC/MM myself , costs more than most top end MC
I will look forward to hearing about that Marco,sounds like an interesting idea.
I'll keep you posted, dude. I have a few 'jolly japes' planned next year for a few of my MM cartridges, some of which will no doubt interest you! ;)
Your other query is probably best answered by Dom :)
Marco.
Dominic Harper
26-11-2012, 14:57
Any cartridge has the potential to be improved with better cantilevers and or tips.
If it will benefit the SC35 remains to be seen, but in my experience it is worth pursuing.
kininigin
26-11-2012, 18:17
I'll keep you posted, dude. I have a few 'jolly japes' planned next year for a few of my MM cartridges, some of which will no doubt interest you! ;)
Marco.
Now that does sound intriguing!
Any cartridge has the potential to be improved with better cantilevers and or tips.
If it will benefit the SC35 remains to be seen, but in my experience it is worth pursuing.
In that case,it's something worth considering for me.Getting a couple of carts with new cantilevers,may be the best way to go rather than the MC/SUT route.I'm not sure,it's all too confusing :scratch: :lol:
None of that really matters now anyway,i can not even use my tt atm!! :doh:
speaking of high end MM cartridges , i have used a cartridgeman musicmaker LE for quite a while now , use both MC/MM myself , costs more than most top end MC
Funny that you should mention the Musicmaker, because i was going to ask if anyone had got or heard one, but i was thinking about the standard version that costs about £750. The Musicmaker has plenty of great reviews and awards, and being a moving iron design is supposed to have the musical benefits of an MC, but has a very healthy output of 4mv, allowing the use of a valve phonostage.
Isn't the Musicmaker a reworked Grado?
Dominic Harper
26-11-2012, 23:35
Yep. I have a Prestige gold here i plan to fit a new cantilever and FG tip to and see what the results are.
I reckon it'll sound excellent :)
However, as good as the Musicmaker is even in its stock form, I think the pricing is ridiculous, given that the 'DNA' has already been provided by an established cartridge manufacturer.
It's defo a victim of dreaded high-end 'badge-fi' pricing!
Marco.
WOStantonCS100
26-11-2012, 23:47
I reckon it'll sound excellent :)
However, as good as the Musicmaker is even in its stock form, I think the pricing is ridiculous, given that the 'DNA' has already been provided by an established cartridge manufacturer.
It's defo a victim of dreaded high-end 'badge-fi' pricing!
Marco.
Steep. However, kudos for adding the "missing" shielding. If the price was right, I wouldn't mind having a Musicmaker (Grado) without the Grado's propensity to hum.
I've always wondered what Grado's high end wood cartridges sound like, but never had the opportunity to hear one.
Steep. However, kudos for adding the "missing" shielding.
Soz, Biff, you've lost me there... :scratch:
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
27-11-2012, 07:55
......you've lost me there...
Grado cartridges...........
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51w2AVaFQQL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU02_.jpg 0pBTcdTWG-E
Grados are notorious for humming, Marco. Especially if they hover close to a mains driven motor, as on many belt drive decks. The Musicmaker, I understand, takes a Grado body and adds shielding to it to prevent humming.
I have a Prestige Gold somewhere in my spares, it's not a bad cartridge if a little obvious and lacking in refinement. Energetic, though.
Ah, I wasn't aware of the shielding issue (so thanks for that), or indeed exactly what Len Gregory does to 'tweak' (what is it a Prestige Gold?) and turn it into a 'Musicmaker', which could justify the latter's exorbitant price tag...
You know me, I believe in audio equipment providing the highest SPPV, and where one is not paying through the nose merely for the reputation of an 'expert' (and the 'badge' belonging to his or her products), rather than purely for out-and-out sonic performance, and I'm not too sure whether the Musicmaker is entirely faithful to those principles! ;)
I would need to listen to one, however, and judge it against my known benchmarks, in order to form a proper opinion.
Marco.
chris@panteg
27-11-2012, 09:57
Ah, I wasn't aware of the shielding issue (so thanks for that), or indeed exactly what Len Gregory does to 'tweak' (what is it a Prestige Gold?) and turn it into a 'Musicmaker', which could justify the latter's exorbitant price tag...
You know me, I believe in audio equipment providing the highest SPPV, and where one is not paying through the nose merely for the reputation of an 'expert' (and the 'badge' belonging to his or her products), rather than purely for out-and-out sonic performance, and I'm not too sure whether the Musicmaker is entirely faithful to those principles! ;)
I would need to listen to one, however, and judge it against my known benchmarks, in order to form a proper opinion.
Marco.
You should take a listen to a musicmaker , Marco , I used a mk1 for six years or so , I liked it a lot , it would work well with your croft I suspect , not that you need another cart though ? And yes the price does seem OTT for the latest models ? Which I haven't heard so no idea what the improvement might be ?
Hi Chris,
I'd love to hear one, if for no reason other than as part of my 'cartridge education', as it were, but I'm struggling to appreciate the value of its current price tag. First of all, what I'd like to know is how much is the basic Grado model, from which the 'Musicmaker' is born, and how much the latter is exactly?
Secondly, can anyone tell me exactly what modifications are carried out to justify the (no doubt) huge difference in price between both? :)
Marco.
chris@panteg
27-11-2012, 10:20
Good questions Marco, which need answers ! I must admit it's difficult to part with so much cash for what looks like a bodged up Grado ?
When I first heard the mk1 @ £425 I felt the same but it sounded pretty amazing , vtf needs to be spot on ! 1.58 I think it was ?
daytona600
27-11-2012, 13:12
current price on the LE musicmaker version marco is 1850
not sure of the full spec but seems to be a complete grado re-build
silver coils , new cantilever and tip , with a isolator added on top
They do sound very good for a MM , cartridgeman ( len ) has re-tipped/rebuilt for years
artemis labs sa-1 , with cartridgeman conductor linear arm & musicmaker LE
sounds excellent
I had an MM III - and (unusually I think) sold it on after a few months. It just "didnt do it for me" - reminded me of an ortofon Rohman which I also sold on. Mind you it was the best tracking cart I have had.
Steve
WOStantonCS100
27-11-2012, 18:24
Soz, Biff, you've lost me there... :scratch:
Marco.
Grado cartridges...........
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51w2AVaFQQL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU02_.jpg 0pBTcdTWG-E
Grados are notorious for humming, Marco. Especially if they hover close to a mains driven motor, as on many belt drive decks. The Musicmaker, I understand, takes a Grado body and adds shielding to it to prevent humming.
I have a Prestige Gold somewhere in my spares, it's not a bad cartridge if a little obvious and lacking in refinement. Energetic, though.
Sorry, for the "drive by" nature of my posts, lately. Thanks guys for chiming in.
According to Joe Grado, the lack of shielding is by design and there is no plan to address the hum issue that many experience... which is kind of obvious as these carts have been around for a long time. :lol: On a table with an outboard motor positioned on the opposite side of the platter this probably isn't much of an issue. However, I know of one audio forum that actually compiled a "Grado Hum Database" to help people avoid mismatching tables with these carts. I have one Grado left (traded one for a Stanton 681EEE) and I may trade it for something else. It just seems to make more sense than buying a table specifically for one cartridge. Shame really as there are some LP's with which I really do like the presentation of the Grado. You win some, you lose some, I guess.
MM of course encompasses a range of operating principles, and these days it tends to just define a class of cartridge with fixed coils designed to work into a 47k load.
Some might be surprised to know that most 'MMs' aren't - there is no moving magnet attached to the rear of the cantilever.
Most employ a permalloy material, of lower mass than a rare earth magnet, which sits within the magnetic circuit formed by fixed coils and magnets.
Ortofon, Grado and Nagaoka are probably the most famous for using variations on this method.
Shure & AT are probably most famous for sticking to pure MM, though AT use dual magnets in all designs.
The benefit is reduced moving mass compared to true MM, set against slightly worse efficiency.
IMO the real benefit of MC comes from the low inductance of the generator, which allows for extended response, relatively impervious to loading without having to rely on a resonant circuit to maintain the HF response.
But many MCs are flawed and I wouldn't say they are automatically better then MMs - take a listen to the AT150, Ortofon Black or the vintage Technics 205 to see what 'MM' can do.
FWIW I think the Grado fluxbridger principal contains huge untapped potential.
These have low generator inductance like MC, so have extended response uncritical of capacitance and have high output. Such a shame that even the expensive ones retain crude styli that ultimately cap the performance.
Rob.
PS: with regard to the Musicmaker, these are based on the Prestige range which starts at £50. The top of the range Grado 'Gold' is a selected base model with a better cantilever, but the same shitty stylus. Never understood that!
TBH, just fitting a better tip will make for a much better cartridge since the basic design is more than sound IMO.
Fritz Gyger will supply their styli fitted to aluminium cantilevers for about £80 trade in small quantities.
We have some......and a Grado or two ;)
I have 4 turntables 2 nominally with MC cartridges, though one of them is not in use just now.
I have an Ortofon Jubilee in my most used turntable and 2 headshells with choice of Decca Gold or Stanton in the other I use.
I like the Stanton too, Marco. It does indeed have a very large diameter cantilever but don't forget that the stiffness is proportional to diameter to the power 4 so, as long as material with thin enough walls is used a very stiff inexpensive cantilever can result. A simple rod of an exotic material may well be -less- stiff, albeit reassuringly expensive.
I was taught an engineer is someone who can do for 5 bob what any damned fool can do for £5.
I often think this hobby of ours has more than its fair share of damned fools, looking at what some people are making.
The Stanton is mainly limited by its spherical stylus IMHO.
Hi Frank,
I like the Stanton too, Marco. It does indeed have a very large diameter cantilever but don't forget that the stiffness is proportional to diameter to the power 4 so, as long as material with thin enough walls is used a very stiff inexpensive cantilever can result. A simple rod of an exotic material may well be -less- stiff, albeit reassuringly expensive.
Interesting... I can see where you're coming from! So what is it you like about the Stanton? To my ears, it's stupidly good for the money, but no doubt priced as it is (a bit like the Denon DL-103) due to economies of scale, and also because it's designed for use in the professional industry, in broadcasting and studio applications, where 'audiophile pricing' does not apply! ;)
For me, it's a very dynamic and musical sounding cartridge that gets all the fundamentals right, but lacks a little finesse, and so is a little 'rough around the edges' in its stock form, although people would be shocked to hear just how good it sounds in a decent T/T and tonearm....!
I was taught an engineer is someone who can do for 5 bob what any damned fool can do for £5.
I often think this hobby of ours has more than its fair share of damned fools, looking at what some people are making.
The Stanton is mainly limited by its spherical stylus IMHO.
Lol - I like it... With regard to your last sentence, I agree (especially the styli being produced by Stanton these days, since they moved factory, which are not a patch on the older ones), and which is why next year I intend to fit the Stanton with an FG S stylus, and maybe a boron cantilever, just to see what it could be capable of, sonically, so watch this space! I like unearthing 'giant-killers' :eyebrows:
Marco.
Marco, are we talking the Stanton 681EEE? The mk2 had a stereohedron tip I recall and this was taken further with the rather nice 881S, which I believe was related (Stanton have changed their internal generators from "MM" to "Induced Magnet" and back over the years I understand, so styli are not always compatible even though the bodies look the same). The Series III 681EEE promises a far better polished diamond and, judging by the similar claims made for the 500V3 and my checking it out, I can say that modern techniques do seem to have improved the polish and grinding...
The thing is, for the 680 series, is that the bodies can be all too easily twisted on their flimsy metal mounts. Great for alignment, but I think a "Stilton" style of rigid encapsulation is called for here... Just my thoughts obviously. My old EEE series 1 is a bit soft in the bass when compared to other cartridges I have, but the mid and restrained treble is fine for me (came as a surprise - thanks muchly Marco :)).
Can I quickly expand on Robs post above on the Grado's. I understand there are/were actually three grades of stylus construction, and two tolerances of each, giving the six models from black to gold. The Gold and it's lesser immediate sibling had a different cantilever I seem to recall, the lower mass giving a smoother, but sadly more rolled off treble, also reported in the MM III as tested in HFW a few years ago. The audible result for me is a rather soft-n-soggy presentation, a far cry from the delightful Shure V15 T2, which also exhibits a treble "suckout" yet like the 681EEE, doesn't sound particularly dull (what's that all about?).
If there's a SAS stylus for the 680 series Stantons, I'd probably look there, as these are rather more than "just" a fancy diamond grafted onto a stock pattern assembly. There appear to be things like tie wires added, as used in the originals and a lot of careful extra alignment...
Marco, are we talking the Stanton 681EEE?
Nope, dude - the lowly, so-called, 'disco' cartridge: the 500AL, often seen strapped to the arm on a Techy pumping out 'bangin' tunes' in pubs and clubs all over the world, and/or used in radio stations for broadcasting purposes :)
I believe that, with a retip and decent cantilever, it has the potential to be a genuine high-end carridge!
Marco.
Hi, I have a few MM's that are in constant use and I would confidently put them up against the best MC's that I use , unfortunatly though neither of my two faves is still produced(nagaoka MP50 super,Townshend EEI 747) prehaps there lies the problem :) .Those two can hold there own against many a MC (if properly loaded as Dom says earlier)
Induced magnet hence they are superb trackers at very low force..I have absolutly no intentions in using anything else other than the ADC '26'. Superb cartridges.. However i wouldnt mind trying an ADC 'XLM' at some point, they track at an amazing 0.4grms. :eek: even so i'm sticking with the '26' it's a superb match for my arm...
Hi Andre , I think the Adc XLM original tracks at 0.6 to 1.0g ,anyway I have one which tracks wonderfully in an sme3009 at 0.75g not in use at present but in fine condition which you are welcome to try for the holidays for the cost of the postage from London.Let me know if you want to try it they are a great oldtimer:)
regards loo
Hi Frank,
For me, it's a very dynamic and musical sounding cartridge that gets all the fundamentals right, but lacks a little finesse, and so is a little 'rough around the edges' in its stock form, although people would be shocked to hear just how good it sounds in a decent T/T and tonearm....!
Marco.
Hi Marco,
My feelings exactly! Had a couple of quite surprised friends too...
cheers,
Frank
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