Opinions/information on couple of Marantz amps

[joniakaidiot]

Hello,


I tossed into Marantz PM-66SE KI Signature amp.
So, I thought I'd ask if you people know what's different between this Signature model and standard SE model? Do they sound a lot different? How about the phonostages - as good in both models?

Also, how about PM-66 compared to PM-68 ?

Then, how does PM-6010 compare with those mentioned above?

Thank you in advance!

[UV101]

I'm very familiar with the Marantz CD's of that era especially the differences between the models. I'm familiar with the PM66KI but not specifically the std or SE versions.

I cant find the exact differences in the PM66 but this is pattern thats usually followed

Standard model - std transformer, std chassis, good quality caps

SE Model - std transformer, strengthened chassis, better quality larger value caps in cirtical area's

The KI will have the SE upgrades plus a better higher VA toroidal transformer, copper plated chassis and a badge!!!

They do get better as you go through the std to SE to KI. Most of the modifications I make to kit is based on extending the same theme past whats done in the KI's.

Its relatively easy to make a std unit perform better than a KI with a few carefully chosen caps. In an amp, I'd say the KI transformer (assuming its bigger than the std version) as well worth having.

I know a mate of mine ended up with 2 KI transformers in his and I a believe it was a significant step forward!!!

BTW the PM66KI is held in high regard which keeps prices quite high considering its age now

[joniakaidiot]

Thanks Ian, for all that information! It seems you are familiar with that unit. ;)

I read that there are some problems with another channel going blank or start crackling in pm66. I guess it's something that can be fixed easily? There's one unit i have my eys on and it has this problem.

Now as i've gone through marantz units in internet, i came into conclusion that it'd be pm-66, pm-17 or pm-80 for me. What do you think about those?

[UV101]

I'd definitely go for a KI amp as I believe (if it follows the trend) its transformer will be superior to the std and SE models.However, It is possible that the SE also uses the better transformer. Google pictures of the model. There are usually pics with the covers off. If its a round transformer its better than a square one!!!!

I like the 17 range! the CD17 mkII and mkIII are awesome players (better than the mkI)

I'n not familiar with the 80 but its further up the model range. its likely to share a very similar circuit but be more powerful.

Any of those will be pretty good and all could be made better with a few tweeks, swapping some older tired caps and a general check over.

The fault is as likely to be caused by dry solder joints as anything else which could mean a cheap fix :)

[seoirse2002]

Thanks Ian, for all that information! It seems you are familiar with that unit. ;)

I read that there are some problems with another channel going blank or start crackling in pm66. I guess it's something that can be fixed easily? There's one unit i have my eys on and it has this problem.

Now as i've gone through marantz units in internet, i came into conclusion that it'd be pm-66, pm-17 or pm-80 for me. What do you think about those?

I have a marantz PM-80ii and the KI signature pm 66se....I find the PM-8011 is far better and I find it absolutely superb in all regards,It weights a ton,but what I like the most is the phono stage...full and rich sounding....The ki66se is good,but not as good as the PM80....one just sold on the bay for £220..rare to find them though...I may be tempted though:cool:

[joniakaidiot]

Thanks guys!
This will help me forward.

George, so possibly willing to sell one of those you own? ;)

Yep, I understood the phono stage is quite nice in Marantz amps.
That's important to me.

[chris@panteg]

Interesting stuff , I've recently changed my amp for a KI pearl lite , never considered a Marantz amp before , it sounds so different to the 740A , quite a change ? A much warmer and valve like tone , so the phono stage is likely to be very good ? Would need an SUT but could be interesting .

[joniakaidiot]

Interesting stuff , I've recently changed my amp for a KI pearl lite , never considered a Marantz amp before , it sounds so different to the 740A , quite a change ? A much warmer and valve like tone , so the phono stage is likely to be very good ? Would need an SUT but could be interesting .

I assume you like your new amp's sound?

[chris@panteg]

I assume you like your new amp's sound?

Yes , very much so ! Especially with CD , just wondering about the phono stage ? I just have to try it I guess ? Would it or could it match or maybe even better my Diablo?

[Stratmangler]

Yes , very much so ! Especially with CD , just wondering about the phono stage ? I just have to try it I guess ? Would it or could it match or maybe even better my Diablo?

Mr Ishiwata is quite a fan of vinyl records, so I'd expect him to have paid special attention to the phono stage :)

[chris@panteg]

Mr Ishiwata is quite a fan of vinyl records, so I'd expect him to have paid special attention to the phono stage :)

Hi Chris , that's what I'm thinking :) I've got to try it ! It could be rather good and simplify my system ! And I could sell the trichord stuff , though it is excellent .

[joniakaidiot]

Yep, definitely worth trying.
Then you could fund my amp purchasing when you have sold your phono stage, hehe! ;)

[chris@panteg]

Yep, definitely worth trying.
Then you could fund my amp purchasing when you have sold your phono stage, hehe! ;)

:D Nice try ,Well it is the season of goodwill :christmas:I guess .

[Stratmangler]

Hi Chris , that's what I'm thinking :) I've got to try it ! It could be rather good and simplify my system ! And I could sell the trichord stuff , though it is excellent .

Have you got a SUT, or would you go back to running MM carts?

[joniakaidiot]

:D Nice try ,Well it is the season of goodwill :christmas:I guess .

Haha, yep! Want my paypal? ;)

[UV101]

Mr Ishiwata is quite a fan of vinyl records, so I'd expect him to have paid special attention to the phono stage :)

regretfully not :(

The phono stage in the PM66KI is very basic which to be fair is like most similar integrated amps.

Its a basic opamp (not a very good one at that) design with basic supporting components. Having said that, its on a board on its own and it would be very easy to make some significant improvements simply by changing the opamp, replacing PSU caps (like KI did everywhere else), swapping filter caps for 1% styrene and then the signal path caps with film. Total cost of components approx £20!!! This would definitely put it on par with £100 phono stage. Spend a bit more on the film caps in line and your probably closer to £200 (as a best guess estimate)

Would probably only take an hour to mod the board (if you could remove it, you could send it to me to mod if you wanted for the cost of the components and a beer!) :cool:

[chris@panteg]

regretfully not :(

The phono stage in the PM66KI is very basic which to be fair is like most similar integrated amps.

Its a basic opamp (not a very good one at that) design with basic supporting components. Having said that, its on a board on its own and it would be very easy to make some significant improvements simply by changing the opamp, replacing PSU caps (like KI did everywhere else), swapping filter caps for 1% styrene and then the signal path caps with film. Total cost of components approx £20!!! This would definitely put it on par with £100 phono stage. Spend a bit more on the film caps in line and your probably closer to £200 (as a best guess estimate)

Would probably only take an hour to mod the board (if you could remove it, you could send it to me to mod if you wanted for the cost of the components and a beer!) :cool:

Thanks Ian , very usefull so its unlikely to match my Diablo/NCPSU/coherent system lead set up then , well I am a daftee lol :D

[joniakaidiot]

Interesting stuff , I've recently changed my amp for a KI pearl lite , never considered a Marantz amp before , it sounds so different to the 740A , quite a change ? A much warmer and valve like tone , so the phono stage is likely to be very good ? Would need an SUT but could be interesting .

Btw, do you need SUT for it?
Isn't the phono stage in Pearl for both MM/MC ?

[joniakaidiot]

regretfully not :(

The phono stage in the PM66KI is very basic which to be fair is like most similar integrated amps.

Its a basic opamp (not a very good one at that) design with basic supporting components. Having said that, its on a board on its own and it would be very easy to make some significant improvements simply by changing the opamp, replacing PSU caps (like KI did everywhere else), swapping filter caps for 1% styrene and then the signal path caps with film. Total cost of components approx £20!!! This would definitely put it on par with £100 phono stage. Spend a bit more on the film caps in line and your probably closer to £200 (as a best guess estimate)

Would probably only take an hour to mod the board (if you could remove it, you could send it to me to mod if you wanted for the cost of the components and a beer!) :cool:


Ian,

Maybe, in case I end up purchasing PM66, you could help me out with choosing correct caps etc? Quite familiar with soldering so I could install them myself - just need some advice on the components. I could mail you the beer, though. ;)

[UV101]

Nah!! Unless you spend far too much time with your head inside the kit (like I do) how would you know.

It's a shame that more attention wasn't given to the phono stage but then CD was a few years old when the 66 came out.

It's a simple circuit which it often the best way to deal with stuff. A few choice components and a dedicated psu with nice regulation all inside the original case would really start to mess things about with some more expensive phono stages.

My own mess up until I finish the Kora I'm building is a Meridian 200 series retro fit phono board mounted in a case,running of its own psu with audiocom regs, bette filter caps, better psu caps and better op amps. I think it would upset some people with £3-400 stages!!!!!

The way I would look at it is for an outlay of say £25, you could end up with the equivalent of a £150 phono stage......that's one of he reasons I can't leave anything alone!!!!!!

Just been looking at the differences between the SE and KI as documented in the Service manual.

There are changes to the phono stage in the KI
The in line caps have been changed to Elna Silmic (C455-458) and the input filter contains "blue SE caps" (C453 & 4)

Other than that the main differences are the mains transformer (larger toroidal) and the reservoir caps are larger (10,000uF up to 12,000uF)

[UV101]

Ian,

Maybe, in case I end up purchasing PM66, you could help me out with choosing correct caps etc? Quite familiar with soldering so I could install them myself - just need some advice on the components. I could mail you the beer, though. ;)

no problem at all!!! Its very easy to mod these if you have basic soldering skills and the confidence to get under the bonnet! ;)

BTW, according to the service manual, the stage should work for MM and MC although I can see any switch to select one or the other!

[joniakaidiot]

no problem at all!!! Its very easy to mod these if you have basic soldering skills and the confidence to get under the bonnet! ;)

BTW, according to the service manual, the stage should work for MM and MC although I can see any switch to select one or the other!


Great, thanks, Ian!

Hmm, weird - no switch for the function? Could it be automated - I doubt.

Oh, about PM80/PM82 - you think it'd need any mods?

[seoirse2002]

Thanks guys!
This will help me forward.

George, so possibly willing to sell one of those you own? ;)

Yep, I understood the phono stage is quite nice in Marantz amps.
That's important to me.

Maybe,but I wouldent risk sending to Finland...good luck in your search:cool:

[joniakaidiot]

Maybe,but I wouldent risk sending to Finland...good luck in your search:cool:

I'm working at Finnish postal service - absolutely trustworthy and careful handling - on the other hand, dunno about Royal Mail. ;)
How much would you be looking for each?

[UV101]

Great, thanks, Ian!

Hmm, weird - no switch for the function? Could it be automated - I doubt.

Oh, about PM80/PM82 - you think it'd need any mods?

EVERYTHING NEEDS MODS lol

I can't leave anything alone!!! I've yet to find anything that didn't respond to a little tweak!

PSU Caps in amps are given a hard time as often the temperature is higher. This short life's them and they go out of tolerance or fail completely. One of the attributes required in "audio" psu caps is low ESR. This is one of the factors effected by age. The caps my read the correct value but the ESR will get higher as it gets older. This leads to noise on the psu rails which will definitely effect audio performance. Heat cycles and running hot can cause dry joints so its a good idea to check as its free preventative maintenance.
Most amps are also biased too far away from class A in order to maintain maximum reliability. Most of the time, you can adjust commercial amps more towards class a without a problem. Side effect could be that they run warmer and an over adjustment would see the amp in thermal run away (very bad). A sensible amount of increase would result in a much better sound and maintain reliability.

I now tend to follow tried and tested principles. PSU rail caps, psu separation and supply (low noise regulation etc) , quality components in the signal path (film, styrene and silvered mica caps, better opamps etc). They all add up to a sum greater than their parts ;)

[joniakaidiot]

EVERYTHING NEEDS MODS lol

I can't leave anything alone!!! I've yet to find anything that didn't respond to a little tweak!

PSU Caps in amps are given a hard time as often the temperature is higher. This short life's them and they go out of tolerance or fail completely. One of the attributes required in "audio" psu caps is low ESR. This is one of the factors effected by age. The caps my read the correct value but the ESR will get higher as it gets older. This leads to noise on the psu rails which will definitely effect audio performance. Heat cycles and running hot can cause dry joints so its a good idea to check as its free preventative maintenance.
Most amps are also biased too far away from class A in order to maintain maximum reliability. Most of the time, you can adjust commercial amps more towards class a without a problem. Side effect could be that they run warmer and an over adjustment would see the amp in thermal run away (very bad). A sensible amount of increase would result in a much better sound and maintain reliability.

I now tend to follow tried and tested principles. PSU rail caps, psu separation and supply (low noise regulation etc) , quality components in the signal path (film, styrene and silvered mica caps, better opamps etc). They all add up to a sum greater than their parts ;)


Haha, I see. ;)
I can imagine when you drive a brand new car out of the store, the first thing you do is disassemble it and replace a couple of parts. :D

Anyway, I did some google-search and found 66SE models with both round and square transformers - I guess the ones with round unit are modded.

[UV101]

Haha, I see. ;)
I can imagine when you drive a brand new car out of the store, the first thing you do is disassemble it and replace a couple of parts. :D

Anyway, I did some google-search and found 66SE models with both round and square transformers - I guess the ones with round unit are modded.

You don't know the half of it!!!

@23 delivery miles
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/6209_118439259752_731817_n.jpg

3 days later with less than 400 miles on the clock!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/6209_118439604752_6142550_n.jpg

All for this so I could tow my motorbike to a track day! :doh::doh:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/6209_118439609752_1840793_n.jpg

With respect to the transformers, It could be a model revision or it could be mods. I doubt there would have been lots of spare KI transformers that were freely available to end users but there may have been some left at Marantz. They could well have started using them in SE's.

[chris@panteg]

Btw, do you need SUT for it?
Isn't the phono stage in Pearl for both MM/MC ?

It's MM only , so yes I need a step up ! Must be worth a try at least ?

[king_cosmos]

Sorry to intrude on your thread Joni but I posted on the Wam about Marantz amps but have yet to get any feedback. I see that UV101 has a bit of knowledge on Marantz gear so I was wondering if there is a big difference performance wise between the reference PM17 mk2 ki (late 90's) and the midrange PM8003 ('09). I think the PM17 retailed at £1k whilst the PM8003 was around £750.

The reason I ask is that I owned a 17 a couple of years back and have recently bought a 8003 but I'm wanting the 17 back to use it as a preamp paired with a Bryston 4BSST. I went for the 8003 thinking that I may get similar results as it's more modern, fairly within the same price range (ish) and have similar tech - copper plated chassis.

Is it worth me looking around for the 17 or would the performance difference (if any) not be worth be it.

Thanks fellas.

[joniakaidiot]

Sorry to intrude on your thread Joni but I posted on the Wam about Marantz amps but have yet to get any feedback. I see that UV101 has a bit of knowledge on Marantz gear so I was wondering if there is a big difference performance wise between the reference PM17 mk2 ki (late 90's) and the midrange PM8003 ('09). I think the PM17 retailed at £1k whilst the PM8003 was around £750.

The reason I ask is that I owned a 17 a couple of years back and have recently bought a 8003 but I'm wanting the 17 back to use it as a preamp paired with a Bryston 4BSST. I went for the 8003 thinking that I may get similar results as it's more modern, fairly within the same price range (ish) and have similar tech - copper plated chassis.

Is it worth me looking around for the 17 or would the performance difference (if any) not be worth be it.

Thanks fellas.


No prob, Mem. ;)
I guess other guys are able to guide you with this.

[UV101]

Sorry, I've only got direct experience with the CD players other than the pm66 amp.

All I can say is I'd guess the 17 stuff was better as I believe it was higher up the model line at he time. The 17 CD player is a pretty significant model.

[joniakaidiot]

I got a chance to do some comparison with Marantz PM17 mk2 between several amps.
Conclusion made that my own Sharp Optonica SA 2121 pleases my ears just fine, actually much better bass for my taste.
Also, Sansui Six is nice and I like a lot too.
Other amps I compared with were Technics SU-V670 PXSCap and Technics SU-V90D - 670 was better.

Mids and highs are really nice in PM17 - really comfortable amp to listen.
I bet it'll beat my vintage amps in several areas, but for my ear vintage units are better.

So, no need to update my amp at the moment.
Although, would like to listen to Marantz PM80 or PM82.