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StanleyB
01-03-2009, 11:19
I just managed to add PFM to my list:smoking:. That makes it three so far.

aquapiranha
01-03-2009, 12:16
I think you still have to go some to catch up with some...

what have you done? :doh:

WikiBoy
01-03-2009, 13:17
I just managed to add PFM to my list:smoking:. That makes it three so far.

I am down to two now having sneaked in here again when the fences were down :eyebrows:

I have similar problems to you, it seems it is very difficult for a manufacturer / seller to act as an individual on forums. I have come into every forum I post on as an individual with no intension of mentioning my company or promoting its products. I have (more "had" now as it is largely off my chest and most know what I think) an agenda about F-up state of this industry which is being run by marketing men and slurpers.

Some forums are just greedy, within 6 non product based posts at Wigwam with no mention of my company or products at all I received an emailed invoice for £50, which I understand was stimulated by certain members *reporting* me as trade. I refused to pay it and told where he could stick it and was banned. The extra behaviour that is unique about wigwam is they banned all mention of the product (which they have done to you as well). This is just disgracefull sour grapes as the UAP is always no mention of the person as opposed to making a vindictive attack on the product.

I then had exactly the same thing happen at PF, but in that case the argument spread to Zerogain and a removal was orchestrated there by the mods on their secret mods forum Guards Chat (which stupidly they gave me access to by accident). Though I have now made it up to a degree with Tony at PF so was invited back and now enjoy it as my main place of posting and have allowed him to list me as trade.

The difference I think in your case is that you do post in threads about your products and you do discuss them. This is what riles the owners, and in that case I have a certain sympathy. You have done very well out of good feedback from forum members who have used and liked your products and it is probably those recomendations that are where most of your business now comes from. It cost money to run a forum website and a little help in that direction I think should not be a problem. For me I object to being invoiced as that makes me a seperate entity to everyone else, I much prefer the *contribute* system that I now partake in at PF. I also avoid posting in threads about my products, or if I do it is usually tangental to the product. Factual information can be provided by email enquiries, forums are for enthusiast and not for spamming, and I fully understand the bad feeling and problems that have been created by Ash and AVI on all the forums he and his disciples and hangers on have posted on. It seems to me a no brainer to let people get on with enjoying and talking about their music and equipment without being hounded by marketing men.

Anyway perhaps the removal of a little of the "us and them" attitude would help on both sides in this connundrum as we are (or should be) all enthusiasts.

StanleyB
01-03-2009, 14:25
what have you done? :doh:
As Richard mentioned, it's the £50 blackmail fee. Like some admins don't get it. Dealers attract questions from members. And members need to join in order to be able to post. A forum is no forum without a membership. I rather give members a discount than separate myself from the general crowd by being able to say I paid for the right to post. It creates a 'them' and 'us' type of atmosphere, which can't be good for any forum.

And some people wonder why AoS is so successful after such a short spell on the net. At least we got a bunch of lateral thinkers here:), and everyone can shout just as loud completely free of charge.

DSJR
01-03-2009, 14:39
and I fully understand the bad feeling and problems that have been created by Ash and AVI on all the forums he has posted on. It seems to me a no brainer to let people get on with enjoying and talking about their music and equipment with being hounded by marketing men.



The annoying thing for me, is that Ash is one of a pair running the company and the other is a true "gentle-man" who NEVER forces his knowledge onto people. He doesn't post though to my knowledge, but I support their products because I know they've been well designed and I've had enough dealings with Ash over the years to know where he's at...

Apologies Richard, I'm sure your products are superb too and well worthy of the positive comments they've garnered. You have clients who've become friends too and that speaks volumes I reckon.

Anyway. So far, I've not been banned from anywhere and have no wish to be. I try to get on with everyone and feel I can sleep better at night if I do..

...from an ex-slurper - (didn't think I was at the time, but seing how hard many people work, for far less money I was on in my heyday, I see where you're coming from)...........

Spectral Morn
01-03-2009, 18:03
Hi Guys


Way back, in I think late June/July 08 I had a similar problem on ZG. I worked in the trade then (not now) and I never hid anything ..as far as I was concerned I was on as an individual. I never once promoted the shop I worked in, nor did I push any of the products we sold/represented...not that that would have mattered as no one knew who I was. I was outed by a dealer, who I did not know (who had an issue...now resolved and he and I are quite friendly). This created a real shit storm which led to a vote on trade declaring who they were. Some felt I had a right to stay as an individual and others not. I had never done anything wrong so the Mods eventually said put up or shut up ( my paraphrase) to those who continued to have ago at me. The irony for me was that I lost my job before this was resolved, so in my case my not being in the trade any more solved the problem for me.

I just don't get the paranoia about those in the trade being able to share. If someone does something that breaks the Forums AUP fine pull them on it, but the AUP must be fairly policed among all members. I know that some in the trade have acted badly on Forums and this has unfortunately led to all being viewed as a threat. As I say judge a man/woman by his/her words and actions not via a conspiracy theory paranoia.

My main reason for getting involved on Forums was to help. Offer carefully considered and qualified advice and I was shot for that. Among many posters (not AOS) the comments etc are poorly conceived and offer no qualifications in which to make any kind of judgment on what is said. I love plenty of meat/info to make me think and workout a problem/observation but a single sentence makes that really hard to do. This is a big issue in our society not just on Forums...lowest common denominator thought and content just don't educate. Single biggest issue with the press and the modern audio press too....IMHO.

Its sad that earning an honest living can't go hand in hand with offering free advice, help and sharing ones experiences gained from seeing both sides of the industry. Oh well......



Regards D S D L----Neil :)

DSJR
01-03-2009, 18:18
Working in the industry was my life and very soul until I married and started to see a broader view. I miss it dreadfully though..

Spectral Morn
01-03-2009, 18:37
Hi Dave


Yes I agree I miss the industry very much....in away still being active on Forums allows me to stay linked if only by a little. I guess I was a bit evangelical, trying to show people the wonder and majesty of unlocking their music collections. Every time some one had a eureka moment in the dem room or at home and shared it with me I got such a buzz from that. The thought/reality that one could help people have a profound experience like I regularly had and still do was a real honour and pleasure.


Regards D S D L----Neil :)

WikiBoy
01-03-2009, 18:47
Working in the industry was my life and very soul until I married and started to see a broader view. I miss it dreadfully though..

Why should getting married stop you working in the industry?

If you love it so much then come back in. There are many many oportunities at the moment as the industry is going through a seed change back to its enthusiast roots. This is being created by the community on-line. Don't think anymore of Manufacturer - Retailer - Punter, with the scavengers such as distributors, marketing men, magazine editors and reviewers feeding on the sidelines, its a new world.

Over the next year or two you will see many on line web based opportunities that are not traditional. Look at what has happened today as a finger pointing to a seed change, community showing its muscle, and not one trade member involved apart from the organiser. AND with confidence he can be kicked into touch if the community can organise itself.

You will always get the naysayers and amatuer marketing clones who will try to drag us back to the traditional ways of doing things and though the slurpers are dying most are still there trying to rip you off.

Come on D apply some lateral thinking.

Spectral Morn
01-03-2009, 19:38
I was tempted to say this too. My wife was more than happy for me to work in the trade...and continue to do so. However everyones circumstances and decisions are different so we should respect Dave's choices.

I agree with Richard things are changing but I am not entirely sure if the death of the traditional models are a good thing totally. For the bad in the trade to leave is not a bad thing as they do those who are good no service at all. The web is an important tool, but my opinion would be for a mix, were human contact is kept as a priority. Virtual is fine up to a point but face to face work and listening in the home would be the kind of model I would favour.


Regards D S D L----Neil :)

WikiBoy
01-03-2009, 20:01
I was tempted to say this too. My wife was more than happy for me to work in the trade...and continue to do so. However everyones circumstances and decisions are different so we should respect Dave's choices.

I agree with Richard things are changing but I am not entirely sure if the death of the traditional models are a good thing totally. For the bad in the trade to leave is not a bad thing as they do those who are good no service at all. The web is an important tool, but my opinion would be for a mix, were human contact is kept as a priority. Virtual is fine up to a point but face to face work and listening in the home would be the kind of model I would favour.


Regards D S D L----Neil :)


Look at what has happened today if you want to see the contact side. Bake-off and home meets are a smaller extension of this. Enthusiasts listening to other systems, meet ups, shows like today. People acting as home demonstrators. Enthusiast helping each other, finding product to sell on.

The next one like today I would like to see is a direct sellers and second hand show, where people can bring product to demonstrate and sell. Record and CD shop for people who want to sell or exchange. No need for a big hotel, just a church hall or community centre will do. Lots of local stuff organised through the forums.

NRG
01-03-2009, 20:44
What....like this one? ;)

http://www.audiojumble.co.uk/

WikiBoy
01-03-2009, 20:57
What....like this one? ;)

http://www.audiojumble.co.uk/

An extension on this, not so much jumble, more gear people want to sell on.

Mike
01-03-2009, 21:39
Gents (he said with his moderator hat firmly in place).

First - There is nothing wrong with this thread IMHO. :) (I bet you thought I was going to say something else!)

Second - You are welcome to promote your product as long as it does not involve 'dissing' of others and their product, or handing out blatant 'insults' to same.

Richard & Stan, where you at the 'bake off' today?... It would have been nice to meet you if you were.

Cheers...

WikiBoy
01-03-2009, 22:24
Gents (he said with his moderator hat firmly in place).

First - There is nothing wrong with this thread IMHO. :) (I bet you thought I was going to say something else!)

Second - You are welcome to promote your product as long as it does not involve 'dissing' of others and their product, or handing out blatant 'insults' to same.

Richard & Stan, where you at the 'bake off' today?... It would have been nice to meet you if you were.

Cheers...

So why interfere with it as a moderator?? I don't really appreciate the "well your being a good boy now, but make sure you continue to behave yourself" angle, can't we all grow out of this!!

No I wasn't there, too much work in the end.

Mike
01-03-2009, 22:29
I didn't realise I'd 'interfered'. My apologies, carry on....

P.S. I was just trying to have a bit of 'fun', if you find that in some way 'offencive' I'll keep my nose out of it. Misery guts! :ner:

StanleyB
01-03-2009, 23:18
Richard & Stan, where you at the 'bake off' today?

Other commitments kept me indoors. But I have had quite a few emails from show visitors who saw several of my DACs in operation. I feel honoured:).

Stan

Mike
01-03-2009, 23:21
Stan,

Your DAC's were pretty much 'ever present'! :)

Seriously... They outnumbered all other DAC's easily, no joke!

StanleyB
01-03-2009, 23:33
Stan,

Your DAC's were pretty much 'ever present'! :)

Seriously... They outnumbered all other DAC's easily, no joke!
I hope people took pictures:). I shall keep my eyes out for any.

Stan

Marco
02-03-2009, 10:12
Guys,

This thread is ok at the moment but I'm not sure there's much more to be said without it turning into 'I've been banned from such and such because of this that and the next thing, and this and that forum is a joke, etc'...

We like to engender good relations between ourselves and other forums (and their owners) and so I'm sure you can see that providing a vehicle for our members to 'diss' them isn't compatible with that philosophy ;)

Therefore I will have to ask that no specific forums are mentioned and/or referred to in negative way for the duration of the thread. The bake-off yesterday at Scalford Hall has improved relations between forums and we don't want anything to spoil that.

Cheers!

Marco.

Mike
02-03-2009, 10:14
Well said! :)

DSJR
02-03-2009, 10:27
Why should getting married stop you working in the industry?

If you love it so much then come back in. There are many many oportunities at the moment as the industry is going through a seed change back to its enthusiast roots. This is being created by the community on-line. Don't think anymore of Manufacturer - Retailer - Punter, with the scavengers such as distributors, marketing men, magazine editors and reviewers feeding on the sidelines, its a new world.

Over the next year or two you will see many on line web based opportunities that are not traditional. Look at what has happened today as a finger pointing to a seed change, community showing its muscle, and not one trade member involved apart from the organiser. AND with confidence he can be kicked into touch if the community can organise itself.

You will always get the naysayers and amatuer marketing clones who will try to drag us back to the traditional ways of doing things and though the slurpers are dying most are still there trying to rip you off.

Come on D apply some lateral thinking.

Richard, thanks for that.

I'm not always as articulate as I should be and I didn't mean to suggest my wife put me off working in the industry. Far from it. I had two of the best years of my career after I married and "sonny-Jim" came along (followed by two of the worst when I tried my hand "on the road" for an accessories brand now defunct).

I returned to retail part time and, rather than my hours increasing as I found my way back in, I discovered an empty diary (previously, there were regular dems all week and a fully booked Saturday), nothing I tried seemed to work - I was at the bottom of the pecking order by this time, rather than manager - and the few clients we had in didn't want a better sounding top loading CD player from Rega for example. I was then laid off and the shop folded six months later. A tragedy, as if the boss had put more of himself into it, this company just might have survived as the break-off "other branch" seems to have done (I dare not mention names, but this other shop is run the "LP12 Supreme Guru..." :eyebrows:

Gotta go again, duty calls and I've some homework to do..

Alan
02-03-2009, 11:34
If you love it so much then come back in. There are many many oportunities at the moment as the industry is going through a seed change back to its enthusiast roots. This is being created by the community on-line. Don't think anymore of Manufacturer - Retailer - Punter, with the scavengers such as distributors, marketing men, magazine editors and reviewers feeding on the sidelines, its a new world.

Over the next year or two you will see many on line web based opportunities that are not traditional. Look at what has happened today as a finger pointing to a seed change, community showing its muscle, and not one trade member involved apart from the organiser. AND with confidence he can be kicked into touch if the community can organise itself.

Come on D apply some lateral thinking.

Dave - take this comment to heart! I add my endorsement as you are frequently a voice of reason & experience. Well liked, measured in your postings and without bias. If people take advice from forums - and they do - without really knowing some of the characters firs, then I hope it is you they listen to. You need to find a way of applying this advantage.

Go Dave, Go Dave, Go Dave, Go Dave, Go Dave, Go Dave!!!:)

Spectral Morn
02-03-2009, 11:44
I second that....:gig:



Regards D S D L-----Neil :)

DSJR
02-03-2009, 18:17
Blushes.....

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/SettingJohnsLP12tweakedsmaller.jpg

Filterlab
03-03-2009, 18:27
:lolsign:

Good thread. My count; 0.

I asked James to remove my account from WigWam, other than that I've never been banned from any forum in my life. ;)

Steve Toy
04-03-2009, 02:06
When did you do that Rob. It wasn't recently, was it?

Filterlab
04-03-2009, 20:00
No, well before the Hi-Fi Corner days at the end of 2007.

Mick Parry
07-03-2009, 16:15
Chaps

I see nothing wrong in asking Trade Members pay for admission into any forum that relates to their trade.

This forum is the same as any other forum in the sense that it is populated by members who are enthusiasts and are prepared to spend time and money to get the best sounding systems they can.

That makes them a good target for any trade member and no one can blame them for pushing their ideas and goods.

In other words, joining as forum as a trade member makes good business sense and they should be prepared to pay for it.

The reason why a high percentage of trade members get banned is not because they are "trade" but because they are plain bloody obnoxious.

Regards

Mick

StanleyB
07-03-2009, 22:44
There is a difference between paying and contributing for the upkeep. Once the word 'paying' comes into it, some people demand rights and privileges that extend above that of the none paying membership. A quick visit to some sites where trade members have to pay quickly brings up a few odd results. Like on one site trade's people can't comment or take part in some sections of the forum. However, on closer inspection, a few known trade characters have been flouting that rule unchallenged for a very long time.

On a side note: I see that James is quite upset that I did well out of his show:). But I think the final straw for him must have been when I mentioned that I might show up next time in support of AoS:lol:.
Lads, we are going places:gig:.

Marco
07-03-2009, 23:04
Stanley baby, can you try to get your point across without mentioning specific forums and their owners ;)

Thank you! :)

Marco.

StanleyB
07-03-2009, 23:23
Stanley baby, can you try to get your point across without mentioning specific forums and their owners ;)

Thank you! :)

Marco.

:o

Primalsea
08-03-2009, 10:39
Stan,

Yep its a horrible sickness that exists. I don't own one of your DACs but I was impressed by it when I heard several at the show. You continue to do well because you make a very good product for a very good price. You also constantly update and refine it, far more than almost any other manufacturer that I know of. You are also an enthusiast and take part regularly in the "On-line Hifi Community" as it were and actively participate.

hinting that you should owe something to someone just because quite a few people own your dac is utter crap.

I know this sounds like singing your praises but I have never met you and dont own one of your dacs. I just pisses me off.:steam::steam:

Beechwoods
08-03-2009, 14:30
AOS was set up precisely to give both trade and the public the opportunity to exchange ideas and opinions, as equals (amongst other things). It works for us! Other forums have other policies, which is their prerogative...