Cartridges, how many do you have ? [Archive]

DSJR

19-11-2012, 13:53

To many dotted all over several boxes to count...

The P77 has a definitely measurable "moving magnet" response. Not a criticism, but the reason why it sounds beefy and "subtle" up top. The related Rega R100 cartridge sounded similar, if a little smoother in the extreme top end. The AT120E needs a low mass arm for the bass to "work" properly and the treble is "flat" followed by a lift at very high frequencies, giving a several db minimum difference in total between the two presentations, referenced to the same midrange level.

This is all part of the fun? of owning and messing around with gear. Cartridge collecting is addictive though, but bear in mind that to combine the delicasy the AT120E can deliver, coupled with the proper bass and lower mid solidity of the P77, you'll need to spend a fair amount more I'm afraid. In the meantime, and spurred on by my experiences just now of the Rega carbon and better/worse AT105 (swings and roundabouts with these two), I do need to get a new EsCo P77 stylus for my P77MG body...

the engine

19-11-2012, 14:08

Nine.....Seven totalled and two good uns ..DOH !!

tannoyman

19-11-2012, 14:40

1

David :)

accuphaseman

19-11-2012, 15:14

hifi_dave

19-11-2012, 15:34

I believe we had a very similar thread a few months ago.

These are a few I have cluttering up my desk.

http://http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/012.jpg

Tarzan

19-11-2012, 18:39

macvisual

19-11-2012, 18:50

Just 1

AT440MLa

Barry

19-11-2012, 19:41

I believe we had a very similar thread a few months ago.

These are a few I have cluttering up my desk.

http://http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/012.jpg

Ooh - An AKG (P8ES ?). Wants it, wants it!

Barry

19-11-2012, 19:50

About 17:

4 EMT (TSD15 spherical tip x2, fineline tip x1 and an XSD15, plus a damaged 'nuded' generator)

3 ADC (ADC25 with 3 stylii and ADC10E Mk. IV x2)

2 Denon (both model 103 with spherical tip, but mounted in in headshells for appropriate arms: EMT or SME/EIA)

3 Ortofon (SPU spherical tip, SL15E and SL15E Mk.II)

3 Decca (2 x Mk. V ('Blue') plus Mk. VI ('Gold'))

an old Shure M55E (kept out of sentimental reasons) and an old B&O SP6 (again kept for sentimental reasons).

Wish I still had my old AKG P8ES - loaned to a friend who later claimed he had lost it! :steam:

chelsea

19-11-2012, 19:53

I believe we had a very similar thread a few months ago.

These are a few I have cluttering up my desk.

http://http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/012.jpg

What's the blue one dave?

Rare Bird

19-11-2012, 19:59

Ooh - An AKG (P8ES ?). Wants it, wants it!

Nein i sawd it furst :eyebrows:

What's the blue one dave?

Lyra 'Argo'

hifi_dave

19-11-2012, 20:02

The blue one is, indeed, a Lyra Argo.

Top marks to Andre.

Marco

19-11-2012, 20:02

What's the blue one dave?

Lyra Argo(i) :)

Marco.

southall-1998

19-11-2012, 20:17

hifi_dave

19-11-2012, 20:46

Oh come on........ what's the point in saying "I've got 2 or 3 or 9".....:artist: WE NEED PICS.

walpurgis

19-11-2012, 20:48

Currently in my TT a ZYX R100.

Rest of line-up: ZYX R50 Broom H, Zyx R100 H2, Goldring Erioca LX, JVC Z1S, ADC 26, ADC 10E Mk.II, ADC 10 Mk. IV (3 no.)

I did have loads more, but thinned things down a bit over the last year or two.

Wakefield Turntables

19-11-2012, 20:59

Oh come on........ what's the point in saying "I've got 2 or 3 or 9".....:artist: WE NEED PICS.

How does this grab you, its a Ortofon cadenza black sitting on a SME V :eek:

Roy S

19-11-2012, 21:16

8 (but there are a couple I wouldn't want anywhere near my vinyl)

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/carts.jpg
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/carts2.jpg
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/carts3.jpg
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/carts4.jpg

Rare Bird

20-11-2012, 01:03

ADC 26, ADC 10E Mk.II, ADC 10 Mk. IV (3 no.)

Three of us with ADC's :eyebrows: Hows the ADC '26' suite the Mission '774'? It's not quite as low mass as the Mayware..

kor952

20-11-2012, 01:28

For my Dual 701:

Shure M75 with HE Stylus
Shure V15 III with eliptical and HE Stylus

For my Rega 250 arm:

Ortofon 2M Red

For my Jelco SA-750 LB arm:

Denon DL-103R
Ortofon SPU Synergy GM (wich I have returned cause it needs a check, it does not track properly, hope to have it back (or a new one) before the end of the year.

And usable in both arms:

Benz Micro Glider SL

Makes a total of 6.

Ronald.

the engine

20-11-2012, 10:04

oops! .....my ortofonMC25 fl's just arrived from Angus.
10 then.
11 if you count the jukebox.

julesd68

20-11-2012, 10:15

One on the arm and two in the post!

Will only be able to keep one though :(

walpurgis

20-11-2012, 10:35

Three of us with ADC's :eyebrows: Hows the ADC '26' suite the Mission '774'? It's not quite as low mass as the Mayware..

Hi Andre, the ADC 26 works fine in the 774 with minimal damping used. I also have a couple of ADC 27 styli which I believe are slightly less compliant, and I can pop one of these on if there are issues, I haven't had to though.

Are you sure the Mayware is lower mass? The sliding tracking force weight varies the effective mass.

Geoff.

ehoove

20-11-2012, 10:41

I currently have 5
Dynavector 20x2m (VPI) in Magnapan Unitrac 1 (TD125)
Sumiko Blackbird in Pro-Ject 9CC (TD160)
Denon DL103r in Jelco 750D (TD150)
Sonus Blue Gold in Mayware Formula 4 MkII (Kenwood KD500)
AudioTechnica AT14Sa waiting for the TD126MkII to be completed.:^)

Regards,
Jim

OneyedK

20-11-2012, 11:21

http://users.telenet.be/kastaar/SL1200MK2/IMG_0797%20%281%20of%201%29.jpg

That was before I had the AT-440MLa, the AT-OC9ML/II, the Denon DL-110 and the Denon 103R...

hifi_dave

20-11-2012, 11:38

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/009-6.jpg

One for Marco.

hifi_dave

20-11-2012, 11:40

http://http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/007.jpg

Anyone for a Decca.?

Rare Bird

20-11-2012, 12:23

Hi Andre, the ADC 26 works fine in the 774 with minimal damping used. I also have a couple of ADC 27 styli which I believe are slightly less compliant, and I can pop one of these on if there are issues, I haven't had to though.

Are you sure the Mayware is lower mass? The sliding tracking force weight varies the effective mass.

Geoff.
Hi Geoff

I slide the mass ring right the way back, fitted a tight 'O' ring in front so it doesnt move, i only keep the ring on so i don't loose it.. Yes the Mayware is a lower mass.

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w425/ELPFAN1968/MassRing.jpg

I personally think the Mayware is the best arm ive ever owned,I had three, sold two recently.. some people hate uni-pivots, i love em...The Mass ring is a great addition, i had a mate who has a Denon 'DL103R' singing in one..

Back to the ADC's tho. i have yet to try the 10E Mk.IV as i bought it with a broken Styli..Your right about the '27' compliance being lower btw

Marco

20-11-2012, 18:53

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/009-6.jpg

One for Marco.

Interesting... What headshell is that, Dave (and designed for which arm)? :)

Marco.

Rare Bird

20-11-2012, 19:57

Looks like it's for a Dual pick-Up arm.

DiveDeepDog

20-11-2012, 20:20

7:doh:

walpurgis

20-11-2012, 20:28

Hi Geoff

I slide the mass ring right the way back, fitted a tight 'O' ring in front so it doesnt move, i only keep the ring on so i don't loose it.. Yes the Mayware is a lower mass.

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w425/ELPFAN1968/MassRing.jpg

I personally think the Mayware is the best arm ive ever owned,I had three, sold two recently.. some people hate uni-pivots, i love em...The Mass ring is a great addition, i had a mate who has a Denon 'DL103R' singing in one..

Back to the ADC's tho. i have yet to try the 10E Mk.IV as i bought it with a broken Styli..Your right about the '27' compliance being lower btw

Andre,

try 'Carole's Needles' in the US for 10E Mk.IV styli. She's a nice lady and very helpful. I bought genuine ADC replacements from her at sensible prices a year or two back.

The 10E Mk.IV sounds lovely, but my 10E Mk.II just betters it I'd say.

Geoff.

Barry

20-11-2012, 20:36

http://http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/007.jpg

Anyone for a Decca.?

Stop it - stop it!
Having two Garrott-modified Deccas is being just plain greedy! ;) Are they fitted with the Weintz parabolic stylus? :)

What is the Decca in the centre? It looks like an early sample of a Mk. V, yet it has four contacts to mate with the Decca ffss arm.

hifi_dave

20-11-2012, 20:51

Interesting... What headshell is that, Dave (and designed for which arm)? :)

Marco.

It's a new 2000 type, magnesium, neodimiun, double integrated, thrice laminated, super heated - Dual plastic headslide.

Once again, Andre gets top marks..:youtheman:

Barry

20-11-2012, 20:54

It's a new 2000 type, magnesium, neodimiun, double integrated, thrice laminated, super heated - Dual plastic headslide.

Once again, Andre gets top marks..:youtheman:

Can't be any good - it hasn't been cryo-cooled. :lol:

hifi_dave

20-11-2012, 20:55

Stop it - stop it!
Having two Garrott-modified Deccas is being just plain greedy! ;) Are they fitted with the Weintz parabolic stylus? :)

What is the Decca in the centre? It looks like an early sample of a Mk. V, yet it has four contacts to mate with the Decca ffss arm.

Yes, they are the Parabolic jobbies from the nice Garrott chaps before they departed.

The one in the middle is an ffss, which I had super-charged and race trimmed so that it could be mounted in a headshell. That was 30 years ago and I must get around to listening to it sometime..:scratch:

The G800 shell was double dipped to alleviate stress incontinence.

Marco

20-11-2012, 21:02

The G800 shell was double dipped to alleviate stress incontinence.

Sounds like your 'Tena for Men' now have a double purpose! :D

;)

Marco.

hifi_dave

20-11-2012, 21:11

Sounds like your 'Tena for Men' now have a double purpose! :D

;)

Marco.

Self damping..:scratch:

MartinT

20-11-2012, 23:37

5, but this is the one I use, the best cartridge I've ever had by far.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8208/8204658112_c4a3459f81_c.jpg

chelsea

21-11-2012, 00:00

Maybe a cartridge swap shop would be good.
Right,would like to try a dynavector x10 or similar.....anyone.

Marco

21-11-2012, 00:07

5, but this is the one I use, the best cartridge I've ever had by far.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8208/8204658112_c4a3459f81_c.jpg

Nice pic, Martin! You're getting better and better... I'll get you to do one of my SPU Royal, including its gorgeous wooden presentation box, when I next visit :)

Marco.

Barry

21-11-2012, 00:14

... I'll get you to do one of my SPU Royal, including its gorgeous wooden presentation box, when I next visit.

Never "judge a book by its cover". ;)

Marco

21-11-2012, 00:21

Lol - indeed. You've heard it though, and it sounds superb! However, I'd rather they were sold in a plain cardboard box, with £100, or so, shaved off the price...

Marco.

Barry

21-11-2012, 00:33

Lol - indeed. You've heard it though, and it sounds superb! However, I'd rather they were sold in a plain cardboard box, with £100, or so, shaved off the price...

Marco.

Quite agree Marco. The packaging of the SPU you sold me is quite adequate and sufficient. One of my many 'bete noirs' is the excessive and unnecessary packaging of cartridges. It started for me with the absurd 'treasure chest' box of the Shure V15.

Compare that with the prosaic but sufficient plastic box packaging of the EMT cartridges (despite the absurd 'wax seal' pendant!).

Marco

21-11-2012, 00:43

Sadly, for some people, such frippery matters. Don't get me wrong, the presentation box adds a certain elegance to the purchase, but it's completely unnecessary.

It's not quite as bad, though, as cables that come in a bloody 'fancy' presentation box! Why oh why.... :rolleyes:

Marco.

Barry

21-11-2012, 00:47

MartinT

21-11-2012, 06:37

Nice pic, Martin! You're getting better and better... I'll get you to do one of my SPU Royal, including its gorgeous wooden presentation box, when I next visit :)

I'll do my best. The camera is almost permanently resident on its tripod :)

Rare Bird

21-11-2012, 08:58

5, but this is the one I use, the best cartridge I've ever had by far.

Nice looking cartridge but my OCD spotted that rather bad chamfer around the bottom edges. couldnt live with that..

MartinT

21-11-2012, 09:08

LOL, Andr'e! I listen to it mostly, rather than look at it. I guess they are still pretty much hand-made, Shelter rising from the ashes of Fidelity Research.

MartinT

21-11-2012, 09:20

2juki is a reliable supplier and has done hi-fi business for many years. I have no doubt about the Shelter's authenticity. Were it a fake, then it's every bit as good as an original so I doubt it came from a Chinese sweatshop!

UV101

21-11-2012, 10:52

4 for me although I only ever use 1

Shure ??
Shure V15 III
Goldring elektra
and this
Denon 103 - rebuilt from (almost)new by Expert Stylus Co with a sapphire cantilever and bespoke stylus tip.

http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/Technics%20SL-1200/022.jpg

http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/Technics%20SL-1200/016.jpg

Marco

21-11-2012, 11:06

Looks great! How does it sound, Ian? :)

Marco.

Rare Bird

21-11-2012, 11:09

I have a mate with a Denon 'DL103R' sounds great & i'd dearly love to own one but i doubt eye could sleep at night tracking my records at the desired weight :)

UV101

21-11-2012, 11:23

Looks great! How does it sound, Ian? :)

Marco.

It took nearly 6 months to get it back but it was well worth the wait. It's been on the TT for just over a year now.

The problem is, it just moves the weakest link!!!! The techie is OK but I'd like to do more. I'm running a Meridian 200 series internal phono stage as a stand alone stage with its own psu. I'm in the middle of a build of an ANT kora to replace it.

I can't really be subjective but I nearly pee'd my pants listening to the half speed masters / MFSL of dark side of the moon and wish you were here last Saturday. It was awesome! To me it's sounds the dogs danglies! All I can say it its a significant upgrade over the stock cart and that would be an understatement. I still think It'll get better as the rest of the phono set up improves. I just hope this ANT stage maintains the synergy I feel I have found :D

Marco

21-11-2012, 11:41

Nice one, Ian - sounds like it was a no-brainer upgrade! :)

The potential with the 103 is amazing, as the basic unit is fantastic (and way underpriced for the sonic performance on offer). It just needs a little 'encouragement' to be made into a genuine high-end cartridge. Your next step is to 'nude' it and fit a higher quality body-shell - oh yes, the fun never ends... :eyebrows:

I notice that you've added some extra mass to your headshell, which with a conical stylus 103 is necessary, but I'm not sure it will be now that you've added a 'fancier' cantilever and tip.

Have you tried using the cartridge without the added weight? You may find that it sounds even better! Also, what kind of tip did you have fitted - elliptical, fine-line, or what, and what does the cartridge track at now? :cool:

Btw, regarding phono stages and stuff, you should try it with a good SUT, through a quality MM phono stage, as that is when the 103 really comes alive. I once borrowed the MM version of the ANT and paired it with my (then) A23 SUT, and the sound was stunning, and way better than going directly into an active MC stage!

Marco.

UV101

21-11-2012, 12:07

It's now tracking at 1.5g instead of the std 2.5g which should be a little kinder to the vinyl! (Better eh Andre!!)

I'd not actually thought to try without the additional weight in the head so I'll give it a try.
I'm sure it's the elliptical stylus. Would be good because then I could remove the mash up I have adding weight to the rear of the arm.

As for nude, I did have it nude to start. I was also looking into machining a nice exotic wood body but there have been so many other things I been up to......it's on the 5 year plan!!!

This is the 2nd modded 103 I've had (last one mysteriously disappeared in the temporary custody of my then estranged but now ex wife). I was glad to relieve her of my HiFi I can tell you!!!!!

Any suggestions on suitable SUT?

doodoos

21-11-2012, 16:42

I've only got one - why would you need more?

the engine

21-11-2012, 17:56

two record players.....?

Audio Al

21-11-2012, 18:01

I've only got one - why would you need more?

Why wouldn't you need more ,

They do give different sound quality , as I found out :)

Marco

21-11-2012, 18:22

I've only got one - why would you need more?

This is where the HUGE advantage of owning a detachable headshell tonearm comes in, Robin! :)

Imagine having an array of quality cartridges (some MM and some MC), all with different sonic signatures, for optimising the replay of certain genres of music, set-up in headshells, in advance, ready just to be plugged in to play (subject first to some quick adjustments)...

Fun? You betcha!! :exactly:

Marco.

Marco

21-11-2012, 18:37

Hi Ian,

It's now tracking at 1.5g instead of the std 2.5g which should be a little kinder to the vinyl! (Better eh Andre!!)

I thought that there would be a big reduction in VTF - cool.

I'd not actually thought to try without the additional weight in the head so I'll give it a try.
I'm sure it's the elliptical stylus. Would be good because then I could remove the mash up I have adding weight to the rear of the arm.

I'm almost certain that if you remove all that (now unnecessary) gubbins, you'll get an even better sound! :trust:

When you do it, don't forget to re-adjust the VTA on your tonearm (as well as re-balancing the arm and resetting VTF), as removing the weight/spacer on the headshell will mean that you'll need to lower the arm to compensate.

As for nude, I did have it nude to start. I was also looking into machining a nice exotic wood body but there have been so many other things I been up to......it's on the 5 year plan!!!

Lol... I know what it's like. However, if you *really* want to hear the 103's full sonic potential, then you'll need to replace the crappy plastic shell with something rather better. Wood is good, as is aluminium, used by the likes of Zu. Trust me, the effect of doing so is even more significant than upgrading the cantilever and stylus! ;)

Any suggestions on suitable SUT?

Your budget, sir?

Marco.

the engine

21-11-2012, 18:40

Once a certain level of reproduction is acheived then I feel the biggest and cheapest ( sort of ) way to have fun is carts. A removable head shell is a deffo bonus. We should have a ' swap shop ' ... good idea ??:mental:

doodoos

21-11-2012, 18:44

This is where the HUGE advantage of owning a detachable headshell tonearm comes in, Robin! :)

Imagine having an array of quality cartridges (some MM and some MC), all with different sonic signatures, for optimising the replay of certain genres of music, set-up in headshells, in advance, ready just to be plugged in to play (subject first to some quick adjustments)...

Fun? You betcha!! :exactly:

Marco.

Guess I'm just an amateur :)

Come to think of it - I do have a Corus Blue on the other tonearm :doh: but it's only for dodgy vinyl.

Marco

21-11-2012, 18:48

Once a certain level of reproduction is acheived then I feel the biggest and cheapest ( sort of ) way to have fun is carts. A removable head shell is a deffo bonus.

Yup, but the trick is finding a good one. New, the Jelco SA-750 is your friend, and with the right cartridge, is as good as any arm at more than double its price (around £350). Second-hand, the world's yer oyster! The Jap's have known for years how practical, not to mention good sounding, the best ones are, while in the UK we were brainwashed into thinking that ALL detachable headshell arms were bad (because of the added join), and that 'straight' fixed headshell arms were always better... :doh:

Oh, the bullshite we swallowed in the 70s and 80s, from biased audio hacks in magazines (and dealers), along with the notion that belt-drive T/Ts were automatically superior to direct-drives :rolleyes:

Marco.

Rare Bird

21-11-2012, 20:07

I have two spare Mayware head shells, i could do with at least another but i guess thats near on impossible nowadays.. :)

OneyedK

21-11-2012, 20:47

I notice that you've added some extra mass to your headshell, which with a conical stylus 103 is necessary, but I'm not sure it will be now that you've added a 'fancier' cantilever and tip.

Hold your horses! Mass has to be matched with the compliance of the cart, if that's not changed, why change the weight?

About a suitable SUT, I'm very happy with the Denon 103R / Lundahl LL1681 combo (loaded with an extra 100kOhm),
but I've heard great things about the LL1933 too...
If you have an unlimited budget, the silver (Ag) version would even be better...

Marco

21-11-2012, 21:19

Hold your horses! Mass has to be matched with the compliance of the cart, if that's not changed, why change the weight?

Since the compliance of a cartridge is partly influenced by the cantilever, I would expect the new cantilever and stylus Ian has had fitted to his 103 to be happier with less mass. Let's see what happens when Ian tries it :)

Marco.

hifi_dave

21-11-2012, 23:15

And the suspension.

the engine

21-11-2012, 23:46

in fact ...Mainly the suspension .I thought.

ehoove

22-11-2012, 01:36

It seems that the direct drive format is the choice here, which is fine, but I tend to evaluate and modify each table on it's own merits. I prefer suspended table designs, and think the Technics SL1800 MkII is a wonderful table. I'm still a Thoren's table fan, and with modification they can really get to the next level, especially with an arm upgrade. I do own a Kenwood KD500 with a Mayware Formula4/Sonus blue gold combo that is spectacular as well, but I still find the modded Thorens tables to be more organic sounding and not as dry as the Kenny. IMHO
Regards,
Jim

MartinT

22-11-2012, 07:26

Hi Jim, you're slightly conflating isolation method with drive method. You can find solid and suspended variants of both direct and belt drive decks.

Essentially, suspended designs bring their own 'self contained' isolation as a stand-alone package - although many will argue that suspended designs can be just as critical of their platform as any other methodology. Solid designs rely more heavily on the external platform and external methods of isolation. For instance, a Technics SL-1210 using Isonoe feet provides as much as, or even better, isolation as many belt drive decks I've tried in the past.

Utlimately, they are all spring/mass/damping solutions.

Floyddroid

25-11-2012, 10:35

According to the spreadsheet I use to keep track of all the hi-fi that makes its way through Smith Towers, I have 31.

Yes but which is your favourite one.:)

RobHolt

27-11-2012, 00:20

hifi_dave

27-11-2012, 09:36

Marco

27-11-2012, 09:42

Here ya go, blind-boy...

:worthless:

Marco.

hifi_dave

27-11-2012, 09:52

Here ya go, blind-boy...

:worthless:

Marco.

:upyours: that is a thing of beauty but I can't find it in my Smilie list..:scratch:

walpurgis

27-11-2012, 10:40

24

25 tomorrow if the postman makes me happy :)

Favourites are Goldring G900IGC (I've got 3 NOS just in case!), Goldring Elite, Audio Technica AT33PTG, Audio Technica AT150MLX and Technics 305MC.

Rob

So Rob, you've got the Technics EPC-305MC. That is a very fine cartridges, I sold mine last year, after having owned it for donkeys years. It sounded better than all the popular MCs I came across. Lovely sounding thing and very rare.

Geoff.

Macca

27-11-2012, 12:57

7 (seven)

This time last year it was 2 so watch out!

Now 8 as I have just taken delivery of a Nagaoka MP50.

prestonchipfryer

27-11-2012, 20:00

Only have five. Denon 103r, Ortofon 2M Black, Sumiko Blue Point, Sumiko Blue Point Evo III and a Lyra Dorian (pictured)

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx309/prestonchipfryer/lyra1.jpg

kcc123

27-11-2012, 20:32

Hehe! I also have five but dozen of cartriges, many of which are vintage and all are still working.

lewis

27-11-2012, 20:43

Only have five. Denon 103r, Ortofon 2M Black, Sumiko Blue Point, Sumiko Blue Point Evo III and a Lyra Dorian (pictured)

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx309/prestonchipfryer/lyra1.jpg

You have some very well regarded MM and MC cartridges, but if you could only keep one, which one would it be? :D

RobbieGong

27-11-2012, 20:51

Was gonna ask almost the same question ie: which is your fave? I'd also like to know how you rate the Big Daddy 2M Black mm against the mc's ?? :eyebrows: ;)

RobHolt

28-11-2012, 00:04

Here ya go, blind-boy...

:worthless:

Marco.

Ok if you insist :)

The postman kindly delivered the object pictured sitting on the clamp this morning. It's a 77.....something :)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8209/8224644251_8ccd9ea4a4.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trebor1966/8224644251/)
PB280710 copy (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trebor1966/8224644251/) by trebor1966 (http://www.flickr.com/people/trebor1966/), on Flickr

This cart pic is from a year or two ago so just a few missing:

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6229/6318631008_6760e034d8.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trebor1966/6318631008/)
Cartridges 1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trebor1966/6318631008/) by trebor1966 (http://www.flickr.com/people/trebor1966/), on Flickr

So Rob, you've got the Technics EPC-305MC. That is a very fine cartridges, I sold mine last year, after having owned it for donkeys years. It sounded better than all the popular MCs I came across. Lovely sounding thing and very rare.

Geoff.

Hi Geoff,

I have the P mount version which was supplied with the Technics SL10 TT I picked up last year.
Lovely deck, I have it on the wall displayed as an ornament. The 305 sounds pretty decent but could do with a fresh tip.
Goldring refused to do it when I enquired last year. I know AJ VDH services them and really rates them.

Rob

prestonchipfryer

28-11-2012, 06:40

You have some very well regarded MM and MC cartridges, but if you could only keep one, which one would it be? :D

I Think it would be a toss-up between the Lyra and the 2M for my taste, as I find the 103r to be slightly 'gritty' sounding and the Sumikos a bit flat. The Sumikos are ok for a back-up.

On balance it would have to be the Lyra as there is obvious more 'air' with it. :)

walpurgis

28-11-2012, 11:56

Ok if you insist :)

The postman kindly delivered the object pictured sitting on the clamp this morning. It's a 77.....something :)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8209/8224644251_8ccd9ea4a4.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trebor1966/8224644251/)
PB280710 copy (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trebor1966/8224644251/) by trebor1966 (http://www.flickr.com/people/trebor1966/), on Flickr

This cart pic is from a year or two ago so just a few missing:

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6229/6318631008_6760e034d8.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trebor1966/6318631008/)
Cartridges 1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trebor1966/6318631008/) by trebor1966 (http://www.flickr.com/people/trebor1966/), on Flickr

Hi Geoff,

I have the P mount version which was supplied with the Technics SL10 TT I picked up last year.
Lovely deck, I have it on the wall displayed as an ornament. The 305 sounds pretty decent but could do with a fresh tip.
Goldring refused to do it when I enquired last year. I know AJ VDH services them and really rates them.

Rob

Hi Rob,

I reckon that if you wanted to put the 305MC to further use, Dominic at Northwest Analogue could deal with a new diamond tip at a sensible price. Worth sending him a PM I'd say.

It's a fine MC cartridge. I ran it alongside a Decca London Export, Fidelity Research MC-201, Denon DL-103R, Transfiguration Aria, various Ortofon MCs and it beat the lot for sound quality.

And I did recognise the Mission 773 cartridge. Never tried one though. I Like to see a 774 arm in use though. I use one, they are much under-rated. Mine sounds so much better than the Ittok I'd had and far better than all the modded Rega variant arms I had too.

Geoff.

RobHolt

28-11-2012, 19:26

Hi Rob,

I reckon that if you wanted to put the 305MC to further use, Dominic at Northwest Analogue could deal with a new diamond tip at a sensible price. Worth sending him a PM I'd say.

It's a fine MC cartridge. I ran it alongside a Decca London Export, Fidelity Research MC-201, Denon DL-103R, Transfiguration Aria, various Ortofon MCs and it beat the lot for sound quality.

And I did recognise the Mission 773 cartridge. Never tried one though. I Like to see a 774 arm in use though. I use one, they are much under-rated. Mine sounds so much better than the Ittok I'd had and far better than all the modded Rega variant arms I had too.

Geoff.

Hi Geoff,

Funnily enough I had an email today from Dom at NWA quoting for the 773.
Only a FGII tip though and I really want the best VDH or ML if I'm going to spend some cash on it.

Rob

Dominic Harper

28-11-2012, 20:43

Only a FG II tip?
The FG II and FG S are quite possibly the finest tips available.

RobHolt

28-11-2012, 20:49

Ah speak of the devil.... ;)

FGS definitely.
Though I prefer ML/MR given the choice, which are technically better since the contact dimensions are retained as the tip wears. I also like <=3um minor radius on the tip which ensures pretty much zero end of side tracing deterioration.

I'm still deciding between yourself and AJ VDH at the moment but I'll be in touch soon.

montesquieu

28-11-2012, 21:30

Six cartridges.

And two arms with removable headshells.

Marco

28-11-2012, 21:52

Only a FG II tip?
The FG II and FG S are quite possibly the finest tips available.

Having used an FG S tip (or Ortofon's equivalent of such), for a few weeks now, in my new SPU Royal GM, it's difficult to imagine how tips could get any better. The clarity and realism from music is incredible, and I get zero audible end of side tracing distortion.

I've always found cartridges with VDH/MR tips to sound too clinical and 'hi-fi', so maybe there's a reason for that. I guess it comes down to personal taste :)

Marco.

Dominic Harper

28-11-2012, 22:10

Although I do fit micro ridge tips from time to time, as good as they are I do find them soul less compared to FG tips.

walpurgis

28-11-2012, 22:27

Marco

28-11-2012, 22:28

Although I do fit micro ridge tips from time to time, as good as they are I do find them soul less compared to FG tips.

There you go then, I'm not completely deaf! ;)

One thing I can't stand is when analogue replay, with vinyl, sounds 'digital' (in a bad way). When that happens, you may as well just bin it and listen to CD or computer audio instead.

Marco.

Marco

29-11-2012, 09:49

By the way, what does the "S" in FG S tips stand for - Shibata?

Educate me, someone :)

Marco.

Dominic Harper

29-11-2012, 11:04

No The S stands for Signature.

Natalie;)

Marco

29-11-2012, 16:49

Thank you, Nat :)

Could you ask your man servant what the technical differences are then between the FG II and the FG S, and why the latter is considered as superior? Also, is there a big difference in cost when retips are being done using one or the other?

Marco.

Dominic Harper

29-11-2012, 17:38

Hi Marco, I can tell you myself. The FG S mimics the cutting head on a lathe used for cutting vinyl. The FGII is a simplified version of the FG S. Both tips are exceptional but the FG S is marginally better than the FGII. I can supply all the technical specification if required.

Cheers
Natalie;)

Marco

29-11-2012, 17:59

Thanks, Nat. Yes please! I'm thinking of fitting one to my 500AL (with a suitable canti)... :eek: :wow: :eyebrows:

A £20 cartridge fitted with £100s of canti/stylus. Should be a giggle! ;)

I could do with some idea of costs...? PM me if you wish.

Marco.

Marco

29-11-2012, 23:23

:popcorn:

Hello, is there anyone at home? :D

Marco.

Audio Al

29-11-2012, 23:24

Hello, is there anyone at home?

Yes Me

Watching Jaws :D

kor952

29-11-2012, 23:31

:popcorn:

Hello, is there anyone at home? :D

Marco.

Yes as always...

Listning to Mozarts Requiem......ssssshhhhhh!

Dominic Harper

29-11-2012, 23:48

I'm so sorry, I've just finished sending my last lot of emails. I'm to knackered at the moment.

I will go through the queries tomoz if Dom and I have time.

Cheers
Natalie;)

Marco

29-11-2012, 23:51

No worries, I look forward to it :)

Marco.

RobHolt

01-12-2012, 04:02

I haven't a clue what the differences are between the various tips mentioned, but I'm sure I'd grasp the essentials if somebody could explain.

I do know the different basic types but not much about the more exotic stuff.

Geoff.

Tips have a major and minor radius.
The major can be seen as the vertical plane, ie it starts at the top of the groove and extend toward the bottom, and the minor is the front/back dimension.
The minor dimension of the diamond playing surface places a limit on ultimate high frequency tracing ability (not 'tracking' ability which is different) since it effectively determines how well the stylus fits the tiny HF signals cut into the groove wall - within reason, the smaller the minor radius the better. The minor radius of the cutter head is around 1 micron. For the stylus to trace the cut perfectly, it ideally needs to be the same, but of course that isn't feasible as you can damage the vinyl.

VDH and MR tips have minor radii around 2-3 microns, and the special tips used by Lyra are 2.5.
Gyger come in at 5 for 'S' and 6 for the 'II' which is better than the vast majority of elliptical and standard line contact tips but some way from the original VDH spec, or MR.

With all tips other than MR/ML, the minor radius increases as the tip wears.
Imagine the sharp edge at the tip of a triangle, and picture what would happen as you wear this away..... the edge goes progressively blunt.
With MR, the edge of the tip which plays the groove wall is a thin ridge of diamond. As it wears it maintains it's minor dimension, and therefore you get cleaner HF tracking for longer. With MR the tip simply sinks lower in record groove as it eventually wears but this is factored into the shape so that it doesn't 'bottom'.

These days you cannot get VDH tips other than from VDH on his cartridges or by asking for a rebuild, since they are no longer produced. They are the same basic shape as Gyger S but with a 2.5 micron playing width instead of 5.
AJ VDH bought all remaining stocks of the original tip before production ceased. Not everyone likes them (or MR) since they will make the treble performance of your cartridge more sharply etched, and i can understand why that gets equated to sounding more digital since like digital, HF distortion is often dramatically reduced.

I'm not knocking Gyger in any way - the Goldring Elite I'm listening to at the moment has a Gyger S - and I'd chose it over every other tip geometry, apart from an original VDH or MR which is my ultimate preference given a choice for perfectly sound technical reasons.

Hopefully that gives you some idea of the differences.

Rob

Marco

01-12-2012, 08:26

Hi Rob,

Not everyone likes them (or MR) since they will make the treble performance of your cartridge more sharply etched, and i can understand why that gets equated to sounding more digital since like digital, HF distortion is often dramatically reduced.

Indeed, and as such that constitutes as a 'sonic signature', and therefore a deviation from neutrality (as nothing in audio is truly sonically transparent). That is the main reason why it gets equated to a (brightly-lit) digital sound. It seems that you enjoy a sonic presentation from vinyl that majors on treble emphasis, as your stated favourite cartridges all exhibit this trait, but that's simply you chosing your preferred sound, not necessarily the one which is the most 'accurate'.

All stylus tips carry an inherent sonic signature (due to how they 'behave' physically with the records they're playing), and so do the cartridges they are attached to. That is why some tips (and cartridges) have a tendency to sound 'digital' - and not digital in a good way (as I like digital, when done well); it's when the overall frequency response and sonic characteristics of a cartridge mimic the worst distortions of digital sound, some of which is governed by the type of stylus used, that the problem arises.

Therefore, choosing your cartridge 'tip' (or cartridge) is just like anything else in audio: you are subsequently also selecting your sonic compromises, so don't be fooled into thinking that a cartridge with an MR or VDH tip is the 'perfect' choice, simply because it may have better measurable performance than others. As ever in audio, measurements don't tell always the full story ;)

Marco.

Dominic Harper

01-12-2012, 08:39

Marco

01-12-2012, 08:53

This may be a bit controversial, but I do believe that peoples obsession with technical specs within audio is detrimental to audio as a whole.
People are loosing the ability to trust their own ears but instead rely on technical specs to guide the decision making process.

Hear, hear - never truer words were spoken! :clap:

I'm not necessarily accusing Rob of this, but it's when people treat technical specs and measurements as their indisputable 'audio bible', and where then all decisions made from that are falsely simplified in 'black or white', that it becomes detrimental.

At the end of the day, we use our ears to listen to and appreciate music, not test apparatus; therefore the former is what should always be used as the final arbiter when assessing what is sonically 'correct'.

Marco.

Dominic Harper

01-12-2012, 09:03

My comments were not aimed at Rob either, sorry Rob if it seemed that way, but at the hifi buying public as a whole.

Marco

01-12-2012, 09:50

Same here (the buying public), or rather those with an unhealthy propensity to 'obsess' over measurements :)

Marco.

MartinT

01-12-2012, 12:47

How many can honestly say they are completely happy with their systems and actually sit down for extended periods listening to music, because that's what its all about at the end of the day.

Got it in one, Dom. I'm currently enjoying Bryan Ferry and marvelling once again at the emotive connection music can have.

Rare Bird

01-12-2012, 13:30

My fav cartridge of all time ADC '26' Mega high compliance (50x) induced Magnetic cartridge. It was quite an expensive cart, around £600 in todays money.

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w425/ELPFAN1968/ADC26-1.jpg

RobHolt

01-12-2012, 15:56

Hear, hear - never truer words were spoken! :clap:

I'm not necessarily accusing Rob of this, but it's when people treat technical specs and measurements as their indisputable 'audio bible', and where then all decisions made from that are falsely simplified in 'black or white', that it becomes detrimental.

At the end of the day, we use our ears to listen to and appreciate music, not test apparatus; therefore the former is what should always be used as the final arbiter when assessing what is sonically 'correct'.

Marco.

No need to worry Marco, I don't take stuff on forums personally.

All I'd say is that if you have a rock which needs to fit a precise hole, simple mathematical calculation will determine how well it's going to fit. So if you want your stylus to faithfully trace the groove wall, things are very black and white with no wriggle room. It truly is biblical ;)
You wouldn't design a CD transport to deliberately mis-read the disc and introduce errors.

It's rather like fitting bald tyres to a car because you enjoy the experience of sliding around on the road.

Ears can easily differentiate between stylus tracing quality.
I find about 85% of the cartridges on the market unusable, and that's without a scope!

Hi Rob,

Indeed, and as such that constitutes as a 'sonic signature', and therefore a deviation from neutrality (as nothing in audio is truly sonically transparent). That is the main reason why it gets equated to a (brightly-lit) digital sound. It seems that you enjoy a sonic presentation from vinyl that majors on treble emphasis, as your stated favourite cartridges all exhibit this trait, but that's simply you chosing your preferred sound, not necessarily the one which is the most 'accurate'.

I don't agree.

All cartridges produce distortion at HF of such magnitude that if they existed in an amplifier or dac, the manufacturer would probably never sell anything.
Figures over 10% are typical and that's always very audible however you look at it.
That's what gives vinyl much of its sonic signature at higher frequencies - very high distortion. Fortunately it's mostly euphonic. Of course other factors are also in play and tip quality alone doesn't make a good cartridge, but I'd argue a great cartridge cannot exist without at least something of Gyger standard. If the tip isn't correctly reading the groove there is nothing you can do further along the line to correct the problem.
Reducing these distortions is what makes vinyl approach the sound of digital at HF, so in effect you are removing the signature as you reduce the distortion.
Any half decent dac is 100% transparent, so the closer vinyl gets to that goal the better if transparency is what you want.
Transparency has nothing to do with being unmusical or soulless.

Rob

HoraceW

01-12-2012, 16:54

Well I have one less cartridge as of this afternoon due to vanishing cantilever syndrome :steam: Need a couple of beers to try and sooth the soul.

Hugh

lewis

01-12-2012, 17:07

I find about 85% of the cartridges on the market unusable, and that's without a scope!

Hi Rob,
Would you share with us the 15% that you think are useable?

John

01-12-2012, 18:51

Last week heard a Acutex 320 a totally fantastic MM even did extended treble

Dominic Harper

01-12-2012, 22:58

It is a little known fact that I have been involved with one particular cartridge manufacturer in helping them with the design of a particular MC cartridge.
Please don't ask me which one as I will not say. Plus I am developing my own MC cartridge. There are a lot of miss understood aspects of MC cartridge design. The tip is only part of the story to obtain extended and linear frequencies. Too much emphasis is placed on the tip with little understanding of how the cartridge works as a whole.

Marco

01-12-2012, 23:32

Rob,

You're entitled to your opinion, which I respect, and also to disagree with mine, so no worries on that score :)

However, I stated my position on the matter very clearly in my earlier post and stand by it. The subject is not as black or white as you may think.

Dom has also just proposed the notion, and through having practical experience in the matter, that there's some over-simplistic thinking in evidence from people, in terms of how cartridges behave sonically, and a tendency to focus too much on the obvious and not enough on the bigger picture - and I agree. More lateral thinking is needed.

As the saying goes: it's often when you think you know all there is to know about something that you discover how little in fact it was that you actually knew...

That's a tenet of real science! ;)

Marco.

Joe

01-12-2012, 23:42

As the saying goes: it's often when you think you know all there is to know about something that you discover how little in fact it was that you actually knew...

Marco.

I get around this danger by being utterly clueless about everything.

Anyway, I own 3 cartridges, but one doesn't count as it's been sat in its box for five years or so.

Rare Bird

02-12-2012, 00:00

Dom has also just proposed the notion, and through some practical experience in the matter, that there's some over-simplistic thinking in evidence from people, in terms of how cartridges behave sonically, and a tendency to focus too much on the obvious and not enough on the bigger picture - and I agree.

As the saying goes: it's often when you think you know all there is to know about something that you discover how little in fact it was that you actually knew...

Hi Marco
You lost me a bit on the highlighted

Marco

02-12-2012, 00:11

The key's here, dude, in what Dom wrote earlier:

There are a lot of miss understood aspects of MC cartridge design. The tip is only part of the story to obtain extended and linear frequencies. Too much emphasis is placed on the tip with little understanding of how the cartridge works as a whole.

He's alluding to the over-simplistic thinking on the subject that I was referring to.

Marco.

Rare Bird

02-12-2012, 00:20

O ok thanks..

Dominic Harper

02-12-2012, 00:21

Yep, in a nutshell. BTW Marco, I have a prototype MC cart I use daily your welcome to come and have a listen to. It still needs more work but is sounding very good at present.

Marco

02-12-2012, 00:30

Lol... Now you're tempting me! PM me when you're free next week. I could bring the Royal GM over, too :)

Marco.

Dominic Harper

02-12-2012, 00:32

Okeydokey

fordy

10-12-2012, 15:01

Dominic Harper

10-12-2012, 15:07

Looks like I'm in good company on this site. I'm a cart and head shell hoarder too (and TT's and tonearms while I am confessing).

Currently hoarding:

Ortofon SPU Royal
Ortofon SPU Spirit
Koetsu Rosewood Signature
Phasetech P3
Nagaoka MP500
Denon DL-S1
Shelter 501.2
AT50ANV
AT33mono
Clearaudio Accurate (currently with NWA)
Benz Glider SL (currently with NWA)
Benz Ruby 2 (currently with NWA)
Shure Me95
Pickering XEV3001
Goldring G800

I think that's about it just now. :doh:

Currently being looked at by NWA lol. He is working on your carts as we speak. And another thing, why do you need them back so quickly, when you have so many others lolololol :lol: (only jokin) he will no doubt email you within the next day or so.

Cheers
Natalie
NWA