View Full Version : Rega Isis is that good
MikeMusic
18-11-2012, 17:35
Various improvements to my system recently
Had this thought the Isis sounded better than vinyl, imagination surely ?
It does, by a fair margin
Rega Isis with a TQ phono interconnect into Mayware DIN adaptor...
Linn LP12 / Aro / Lyra Dorian, Linn captive original leads into BNC-Phono adaptors and Ortofon SUT, Yannis interconnect into Phono/BNC adaptors
both into Naim 82, both using Kimber Silver reference (The Ultimates are in use on the PPP and Naim 800)
Yes a bit Mickey Mouse with the adaptors but food for thought
I assume new purchase cost says the Isis ought to be ahead
Point is - that Isis is a good little box
And since the 82 is blocking so much, you haven't even heard it yet!
And since the 82 is blocking so much, you haven't even heard it yet!
The amplification does seem a tad unbalanced.
Good cdp though enjoy.
MikeMusic
18-11-2012, 21:34
And since the 82 is blocking so much, you haven't even heard it yet!
And yet it sounds so good
(although today I twigged that the slight hum in the vinyl side could be degrading that signal)
MikeMusic
18-11-2012, 21:35
The amplification does seem a tad unbalanced.
Good cdp though enjoy.
82 almost certainly my weakest link
Avonessence
19-11-2012, 10:24
Various improvements to my system recently
Had this thought the Isis sounded better than vinyl, imagination surely ?
It does, by a fair margin
Rega Isis with a TQ phono interconnect into Mayware DIN adaptor...
Linn LP12 / Aro / Lyra Dorian, Linn captive original leads into BNC-Phono adaptors and Ortofon SUT, Yannis interconnect into Phono/BNC adaptors
both into Naim 82, both using Kimber Silver reference (The Ultimates are in use on the PPP and Naim 800)
Yes a bit Mickey Mouse with the adaptors but food for thought
I assume new purchase cost says the Isis ought to be ahead
Point is - that Isis is a good little box
I'm still waiting to come across a vinyl set up which is noticably better than my Isis.
MikeMusic
19-11-2012, 10:45
I'm still waiting to come across a vinyl set up which is noticably better than my Isis.
I'm working on it !
Next time I meet up with Martin or Marco I want to compare my Isis to their fully spec'd Technics
hifi_dave
19-11-2012, 10:58
To my ears, the valve Isis is a lot better than the SS and far more 'analogue' - the best CD player I have heard but it still doesn't do what a semi decent vinyl player does.
MikeMusic
19-11-2012, 11:37
To my ears, the valve Isis is a lot better than the SS and far more 'analogue' - the best CD player I have heard but it still doesn't do what a semi decent vinyl player does.
Something is not right with my vinyl player then
working......
hifi_dave
19-11-2012, 12:25
IMO, your vinyl problem is playing your SUT into the £200 phono stage inside your 82, as I commented on some time ago in another thread. Good though the 82 boards may be, they're a mile off what you can achieve.
Replace that 82 the Hi-Caps and all the associated cables with a Croft 25RS and you will appreciate just how good vinyl can be.
MikeMusic
19-11-2012, 12:46
IMO, your vinyl problem is playing your SUT into the £200 phono stage inside your 82, as I commented on some time ago in another thread. Good though the 82 boards may be, they're a mile off what you can achieve.
Replace that 82 the Hi-Caps and all the associated cables with a Croft 25RS and you will appreciate just how good vinyl can be.
Thanks
I am thinking on a Phono Pre amp with the 82 to be looked at after that
Marco should be visiting soon with his Croft so I hope to be able to hear one in the flesh working my system
If it's doable I'd also love to hear Martin T's Pre Amp at the same time !
No point trying it unless you can afford one, and the Pass XP-20 costs a lot of dosh!
MikeMusic
19-11-2012, 13:04
No point trying it unless you can afford one, and the Pass XP-20 costs a lot of dosh!
Sound per pound is my decider
Seems to be around $8,600 which when converted is £plenty, but how does it stack up against a Croft, around £1400 ? (which I just looked up)
On price only it sounds like the Croft ought to be totally outclassed or does the 80:20 rule apply writ large ?
My main experience on prices has been the Naim range and a 552 is around £15,000 ! - probably one third to a half of that 2nd hand
First, you decide on the circuit topology and then the need for bespoke or boutique components. Croft stuff works just fine as standard, although all the extra power supplies in the RS do make an audible improvement. Marco's gone the other way, race tuning all the active bits in his preamp, and "possibly" only the power supply needs to be examined (I suspect he's already had lengthy discussion with Glenn about it in past years?).
The next thing to decide upon is the need for remote control and any other switching needed..
lastly AND BY FAR THE MOST EXPENSIVE BIT IN AUDIOPHOOL LAND is the lavish CASEWORK a "proper" Top End product needs to have. Seriously Mike, the components inside a typical solid state preamp like the Naims cost them a very few quid, including the circuit boards. Transformers aren't too dear when bought in quantity, the cases are shared by and large with only a few variations and the rest for them is moulah, LOADS of it.. As for lower volume Top End gear designed to sell to status conscious far eastern punters primarily, the cases and expensive finishes probably accounts for 80% of the parts cost at least. Believe me, you have no idea how good a pair of OPA134's with decent power supplies can sound as a line buffer stage. FAR more Croft air and space than grainy, dead and "processed" Naim.........
Well, David, excuse me for having a different point of view but the single most important thing you are paying for when you buy a Pass component is NELSON PASS. His solid state circuit prowess is peerless. It's not for nothing that the XP-20 is considered a bit of a bargain compared with many bijou American preamps. I can tell you that the two boxes are crammed full of specialist components and the casework is simply what is expected at such a price point. I hardly want it to come in a bent sheet steel case like the Croft! Also bear in mind that the price went down for this new model against the older X1, while the SQ went up.
By the way, I still own a Croft SIP so I do know and respect what Glenn Croft achieves.
Fine Martin, and I wasn't thinking particularly of Nelson Pass when I posted the above, but I have to ask you whether you think all those components are really needed in a line stage preamp these days. I appreciate the line stage op amps I currently use, and the output chips in almost all CD players have a goodly number of elements in them and I do appreciate the skill many designers have, but looking from a distance, I wonder if it's a question of some "audiophile engineers" deliberately taking the complex route and then using loads of expensive time and skill in getting it to work properly, when one valve and a handful of bits around it (not even fancy bits at that) can do the job as well or possibly better (certainly loads better than most of what ARC or Conrad Johnson have released over the last thirty years, the latter being accused of deliberately adding distortion to give a "valvey sound").
Happy to be proved wrong here of course. Mike really NEEDS to listen to some simpler and less costly gear (like Glenn's) I think, to show just how old fashioned (and in my view, dead end stunted) his current amp system really is. A few w@nky wires here and there won't turn ordinary glass into diamond, no matter how carefully it's polished...
Well, there's no op-amps in it for a start ;)
I don't disagree that Mike would do well to compare his Naim with a Croft. Based on a previous comparison I heard years ago, it'll be no contest.
.... and then I think we could agree that once free of the shackles that bind him, Mike should hopefully have a spendid voyage of discovery into musical realms he hasn't really noticed yet? I know the plain-jane looks of most Crofts over the years don't win any style awards, but people who own and use them do so for very definite and "usually" very positive reasons in my experience.
MikeMusic
19-11-2012, 14:36
.... and then I think we could agree that once free of the shackles that bind him, Mike should hopefully have a spendid voyage of discovery into musical realms he hasn't really noticed yet? I know the plain-jane looks of most Crofts over the years don't win any style awards, but people who own and use them do so for very definite and "usually" very positive reasons in my experience.
Thanks both
Listening to all those Pre Amps would be perfect
I made more changes than I had for years shortly in the couple of years before joining here.
Think I have made even more since I've been here.
If the kit performs I'm happy
Sound for pound decides with a final nod from 'what I want to do'
Before I joining AoS I assumed Naim prices were the starting point and you went *up* from there
My education continues......
Avonessence
20-11-2012, 07:06
To my ears, the valve Isis is a lot better than the SS and far more 'analogue' - the best CD player I have heard but it still doesn't do what a semi decent vinyl player does.
Interesting Dave, do you think that is down to the genre's of music that you like, as I found after extensive listening that the SS Isis was a much better balanced player across all music types in comparison to the valve Isis, which to my ears excelled on jazz, blues, folk and sounded a bit thin with a lack of punch on rock, prog and similar music types.
Out of curiosity what in your opinion is a semi decent vinyl player which is available to purchase new nowadays?
MikeMusic
20-11-2012, 08:10
Interesting Dave, do you think that is down to the genre's of music that you like, as I found after extensive listening that the SS Isis was a much better balanced player across all music types in comparison to the valve Isis, which to my ears excelled on jazz, blues, folk and sounded a bit thin with a lack of punch on rock, prog and similar music types.
Out of curiosity what in your opinion is a semi decent vinyl player which is available to purchase new nowadays?
And the very helpful guy I spoke to at Rega suggested that the SS was good for some things and the valve good for others.
He suggested one of each !
:)
Interesting Dave, do you think that is down to the genre's of music that you like, as I found after extensive listening that the SS Isis was a much better balanced player across all music types in comparison to the valve Isis, which to my ears excelled on jazz, blues, folk and sounded a bit thin with a lack of punch on rock, prog and similar music types.
Out of curiosity what in your opinion is a semi decent vinyl player which is available to purchase new nowadays?
I'm not going to follow the party line here, but do like the valve isis very much. Rega dodge the issue on their website, but I suspect that the valve model tailors the distortions in a more ear friendly way - not that these things distort overmuch nowadays in any case. My experience of hifi dave's valva Isis is that it has punch and welly aplenty on the rock we played on each occasion, taking their DAC sonics and scale further - wider, deeper higher etc.......
I'm staying out of the "vinyl is better" argument :eyebrows:
The Grand Wazoo
20-11-2012, 08:36
It's an interesting thought to try and judge whether this choice to offer the two different versions was truly in order to provide the best product for two sets of customers with different proclivities or just a cynical ploy to play the market to Rega's best advantage. The danger of that is that some of the market might be left preferring neither. And some people prefer to listen to a range of different musical styles.
I've always thought the best valve gear doesn't sound 'valvey' and the best solid state gear doesn't sound 'solid state-like'. So perhaps I wouldn't like either model?
MikeMusic
20-11-2012, 08:49
It's an interesting thought to try and judge whether this choice to offer the two different versions was truly in order to provide the best product for two sets of customers with different proclivities or just a cynical ploy to play the market to Rega's best advantage. The danger of that is that some of the market might be left preferring neither. And some people prefer to listen to a range of different musical styles.
I've always thought the best valve gear doesn't sound 'valvey' and the best solid state gear doesn't sound 'solid state-like'. So perhaps I wouldn't like either model?
Or maybe both........
I haven't heard the valve version but the SS is superb
Closest I can get for comparison is my Revox G36 and B77. In fact I must get them out and running
No, I suspect you'd love both!
HiFi dave should confirm, but as I understand it, the designer has a natural affinity for valves and was allowed to do "his" version..
By the way, this is printed on the Rega DAC main board...
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/16c103c3.jpg
Rega valve amp one day?
MikeMusic
20-11-2012, 09:30
No, I suspect you'd love both!
HiFi dave should confirm, but as I understand it, the designer has a natural affinity for valves and was allowed to do "his" version..
Rega valve amp one day?
The more I learn about Rega the more I like them
I'm going to be accused of shilling again :( but a listen to an Osiris amp may be well worth your trouble. perhaps too expensive for the UK market, it does sound very good and is totally unflappable with it...
MikeMusic
20-11-2012, 09:40
Be happy to listen to one
hifi_dave
20-11-2012, 10:32
My take on the SS versus valve versions is that the majority of British Hi-Fi dealers know notta lot of and are frightened of valves. If Rega's only Isis was the valve version, they would probably have had lower uptake. Before opting for the valve version I auditioned the SS and the valve is, to my ears, clearly better in every respect, especially if you appreciate what vinyl does.
The designer is a valve man through and through, so I'm surprised that they haven't got more valve products in their line-up. Be grateful for small mercies I suppose.
I've always thought the best valve gear doesn't sound 'valvey' and the best solid state gear doesn't sound 'solid state-like'.
Spot on, Chris, and exactly as things should be.
I bow to Dave's hands-on experience, regarding the valve version of the Isis, as I trust his ears.
However, I've yet to be convinced by the use of valves in any source component, as the majority of time their existence is simply to add 'niceness' or a 'valvey' warmth, which to my ears, translates as a euphonic effect, divorced from the realism and neutrality, and 'wide-open window' I demand from my chosen source components. Indeed, I do not use valve amplification because it produces a warmer more 'analogue' sound either; quite the opposite in fact, as the best valve amplifiers (certainly what I use) produce some of the most incisive, detailed and dynamic, and lifelike sounds imaginable.
Returning to my previous point, I've tested my modified Sony DAC against many valve-based DACs, and they've all been found wanting, for the above reasons. I don't even like vintage valve tuners, as for me they sound too cloying and romantically soporific. I much prefer the big Jap solid-state beasts from the 70s! Getting back to the Isis, I can only presume (hope) that the valve output stage, in the tube version, has been designed for the right reasons (producing a more musically fluid, realistic sound), rather than as a glorified tone control. Dave wrote:
Before opting for the valve version I auditioned the SS and the valve is, to my ears, clearly better in every respect, especially if you appreciate what vinyl does.
Now is that appreciating "what vinyl does", as in with the best recordings and a superb T/T, it allows the listener to hear a more musically involving, and ultimately convincing sonic presentation, devoid of the processed sounding artefacts of digital music reproduction, or is it "what vinyl does", as in (for the pipe and slippers brigade), gives a 'nice warm sound'? ;)
I would of course have to listen to the valve version of the Isis myself, to form a proper opinion. However, I've had the pleasure recently of listening to the non-valve version, on two occasions, at Ian Walker's place (through my Croft preamp, his Copper amp, same as mine, and his Tannoy Canterburys), and it is stunningly good! It's probably the only modern CDP that I could happily live with (rivalling my Sony in key areas of music reproduction), as like the Sony, it sounds very 'un-digital' and 'analogue-like', but in the RIGHT way!
To my ears, the Isis somehow manages to deftly 'buff away' the worst excesses of 'digital nastiness' (that 'glarey', falsely 'spot-lit', processed sound of digital, which hurts your ears, when digital is done less than optimally), and retain superb top-end extension, in the most sparkly crystalline of fashions, also producing a 'creamy' sounding, wide-open midrange, full of life and vitality (where the beautiful phrasing and layering of voices is its forté), together with syncopating and tuneful extended bass, in the manner of, yes, a good turntable! The Isis succeeds in unravelling layers of hidden nuances in the musical mix quite unlike any other CDP I've heard.
Returning to earlier comparisons with turntables, does it beat my Techy?
No (and both have roughly the same £6.5k price tag, based on what I've spent on my T/T, to date). The Techy still has a greater ability to beguile one with its addictively infectious way of music-making, rhythmic alacrity and foot-tapping tunefulness, especially with the SPU Royal GM cartridge at the helm - and ultimately more convincing rendition of instruments and voices, when playing the finest recordings on vinyl, although many of those traits are attributable to the superiority, to my ears, of vinyl compared with CD (or streaming), rather than to any negative aspects of the Isis.
However, if for some reason I could never use a T/T again, the Isis would be more than capable of providing my daily musical fix, producing a sound that is near-guaranteed to entertain the ears of the most diehard vinyl fan. Make no mistake, this is digital (CD) done properly, where its true potential, sonically, is near-fully realised. With the possibility existing that the Isis could be one of the last truly great CDPs to be built, then my advice is (if you can afford it) grab one while you can, before bloody computers end up totally ruling our musical lives! :rolleyes:
:cool:
Marco.
MikeMusic
20-11-2012, 15:23
Make no mistake, this is digital (CD) done properly, where its true potential, sonically, is near-fully realised. With the possibility existing that the Isis could be one of the last truly great CDPs to be built, then my advice is, if you can afford it, grab one while you can! :cool:
Marco.
There is the other point that persuaded me :
(For which you *must* have the original receipt)
Lifetime guarantee :D
and spare CD transports kept at Rega for that purpose
Nice one. It's what should be expected when buying a product of that calibre :)
Marco.
I've always thought the best valve gear doesn't sound 'valvey' and the best solid state gear doesn't sound 'solid state-like'.
Spot on, Chris, and exactly as things should be.
Indeed - and we've heard exactly that result at your place, Martin, using both your equipment and mine in your system :)
My take on it is if, when blindfolded, using suitable speakers, you can readily identify (in a negative way) whether an amplifier is SS or valve, then the amplifier concerned is not representative of the best of either design topology!
Marco.
MikeMusic
20-11-2012, 17:51
Nice one. It's what should be expected when buying a product of that calibre :)
Marco.
I had to query and check what I read and then ring Rega direct to confirm as that makes the 'whole life cost' a whole lot less
Top of my head I guess a service and tiddle around with a Naim CDX2 would be £500, every 5-10 years or so. Parts for the older Naim CDs not available :(
Avonessence
21-11-2012, 20:38
If Rega's only Isis was the valve version, they would probably have had lower uptake. Before opting for the valve version I auditioned the SS and the valve is, to my ears, clearly better in every respect, especially if you appreciate what vinyl does.
It's all subjective, one might prefer the SS version to the Valve version and vice-versa.
As some like the non-natural distortion of SS amplification, whereas others like the natural distortion of valve amps, no one is wrong, they just have different preferences.
As some like the non-natural distortion of SS amplification, whereas others like the natural distortion of valve amps, no one is wrong, they just have different preferences.
There is no need to like either type of distortion if the circuit is designed correctly. The secret is not to let it clip, then both technologies sound pretty much the same. There's no substitute for headroom.
MikeMusic
22-11-2012, 07:35
There is no need to like either type of distortion if the circuit is designed correctly. The secret is not to let it clip, then both technologies sound pretty much the same. There's no substitute for headroom.
If we can somehow make the time I'd like to hear my Isis against your Ayre next time. Could be a very interesting match
If we can somehow make the time I'd like to hear my Isis against your Ayre next time. Could be a very interesting match
Now that would be a good shoot-out :)
MikeMusic
22-11-2012, 08:39
Now that would be a good shoot-out :)
We have a huge amount of stuff to compare
Do you want to stay the weekend ?
:)
Floyddroid
08-12-2012, 21:45
The Ortofon SUT is the best one i have ever heard.
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