View Full Version : Starting Streaming
This is sort of following on from the thread that's going at the moment about the future of standalone CDPs. It's got me thinking about what I should be doing next :eyebrows:
So I’m thinking of adding audio streaming to my hi-fi set up; ripping my CD collection to NAS. I’m pretty satisfied that I understand the NAS side of things – it’s the client side that is making my brain ache.
Wandering around the web I get the distinct impression that out-of-the-box streamers are either (a) very expensive for what they are and/or (b) tend have flaky software/dubious support/questionable facilities. Since I’m quite happy building my own PCs, it seems to me that the best thing at the moment may be to build a small form factor PC to act as a streaming client that simply stuffs the bits into a high quality stand-alone DAC.
This is where you come in: all my PC building has been done at the home-office or turbo-gaming end of the spectrum, so I’m quite up to date with what is what for maximum performance. Where I’m all at sea is in understanding state of the art at the small-form-factor low-power silent-PC end of things :scratch: What I think I want is simply a small box that only does audio streaming and which sits minding its own business on the hi-fi rack.
So, if I want to build such a beast, what foundational components should I be looking at? It looks as though Micro-ITX is the way to go, but what chipset? Intel H77 seems to be out, but are there low power CPUs to plug into it? Or should I be looking at semi-built barebones kit such as a Shuttle or a Zotac?
Opinions (and flaming) welcomed.
Be careful about welcoming flaming, there are some very skillful practitioners on here but they don't get the opportunity to practice their skills very often so inviting them might prove too tempting to some :lol: .
I can't add anything much to this but I too would be interested in opinions. I recently built my own HTPC under advice from an expert and I used MoBo ASUS P8H67-V with sound card ASUS Xonar Essence PCI card. I can advise that I am very happy with the SQ but it may not be applicable to your requirements.
Cheers,
Dave.
bobbasrah
18-11-2012, 13:28
Lots of solutions from laptop to BR player to silent server...
Mark - http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18323
Brian/Gary - http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18860
Search the site and Tim or Martin's machine etc will also give some food for thought...
Personally Simon IMO what Dave has just described is over the top for an audio server, however in fairness he said it was designed as an HTPC, but even then I wouldn't have used an Asus P8H67-V. I would use an atom board with an inbuilt NVIDEA ION for HD video playback, more power efficient, cheaper, smaller footprint and can be run passively - but each to their own.
If you want to go down the Windows route this should be digested and considered;
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/405-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-caps-v20/
If you want Linix consider this;
http://linux.voyage.hk/voyage-mpd
http://store.voyage.hk/KMPD2h.php?id=72
A variant is in use by Keiths;
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21573
Some good reading here;
http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/
:cool:
EDIT:
Simon, with regard to the CAPS in the first link, if you use this as a framework you can build a cheap, low powered and silent server that will suit most popular applications on the Windows platform - just pick the bits that apply. But IMO your server should be a low power CPU (atom is popular for Windows) and the O/S drive should be SSD. I would advise experimenting with either a NAS, internal/external HDD for your music library as there is divided opinion here on which sounds best?
Win7 or 8 it now seems paired with JRiver is one of the most popular, but try the other media players and make up your own mind.
A lot of the items mentioned in CAPS have been sourced in the US, but mini-ITX atom based motherboards are available in many differing flavours, just depends on what inputs/outputs you deem applicable to your build, these have been mentioned previously and are a good source of information & boards http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=2.
This combination is at the moment flavour of the month amongst computer audiophiles (I hate that phrase) file based audio enthusiasts: Win8 + JPlay + JRiver running on a lower power mini-ITX atom board > DAC of your choice.
There's lots to choose from in fact its becoming a labyrinth as it gains in popularity. You can search through the forum using the search term 'music server' and lots of information will be available ;)
Thanks for all the fascinating links!
I suppose, looking at the Computer Audiophile Pocket Server as a paradigm for this sort of thing, my basic question is this: if I was building a CAPS now, what would be today's equivalent motherboard/processor combination to that used in CAPS 2.0? The latter was designed and built back in the stone age of early 2011 after all :lol:
Seriously, one of the things that is moving on fast at the moment in the computer industry is the low power/high performance end of the spectrum, so i'd like to understand what I get for how much - and then I can compare it with a solution like Keith's which seems to have been made of a bag of old bits. Since I have quite a few old bits lying around the latter may be the wisest course!
my basic question is this: if I was building a CAPS now, what would be today's equivalent motherboard/processor combination to that used in CAPS 2.0? The latter was designed and built back in the stone age of early 2011 after all :lol:
That really depends on what your chain is going to be, as each board has differing positives and negatives. I am assembling my third server and chose an Intel DN2800MT, which is becoming very popular - http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/my-new-caps-v2-build%3B-best-digital-ive-heard-13548/index4.html
I'm afraid that is a choice you are going to have to research and decide on yourself, as it can depend on what DAC you choose, if you need USB or S/PDIF, or both, will it be headless (recommended) or need DVI/HDMI, how you are going to power it, remote controller, purely audio functionality or multi-purpose and the form factor? There isn't really a 'one size fits all' answer I'm afraid and it's going to require an investment of time to get it right. I have spent nearly two years and I'm now on my third build. It all depends on how high you set the bar in SQ really? You are going to spend a lot less than buying a NAIM but the trade off is it's going to need work on your part, unless you follow the CAPS route to the letter.
However, 'the majority' choose lower powered atom boards for Windows applications. Linux requires even less and ALIX boards are popular. What Keiths has put together for around £100 is particularly impressive and as a start point, if you are comfortable with Linux, is what I would look at if I was starting out for the first time ;)
You could start with a cheap netbook to get you going and to see if theres merit in taking things further. Use one of the many software players the guys on here recommend and used a USB to SPDIF converter to your DAC and perhaps an isolator for it as well. If you like it then go the whole hog if you think you'll get more out of it.
That's very good advice actually Neal and exactly where I started, I built up in stages over time, before I committed to it fully. I didn't fancy ripping over 2,000 CD's until I was totally sure it was the right road to go down. As we have seen here a lot don't either like the idea, or don't take to it when they try it, you need to be sure its right for you. I took a netbook, foobar2000 and a DAC around a whole bunch of dealers trying different combinations out, which is where I heard the Bryston BDP-1 and Bryston DAC. At that stage I hadn't spent a dime as I had the netbook and DAC already. I compared the notebook to many high-end CDPs and streamers and a common theme arose, in that the void was small regarding SQ, but the price differences were significant.
Wise words from Neal there Simon.
Final thought have you heard many streamers/servers Simon and do you like how they sound? If the answer is no I haven't heard many, do that first ;)
You could start with a cheap netbook to get you going and to see if theres merit in taking things further. Use one of the many software players the guys on here recommend and used a USB to SPDIF converter to your DAC and perhaps an isolator for it as well. If you like it then go the whole hog if you think you'll get more out of it.
Good advice...
Or even any old laptop you have knocking around, the big effort is ripping your collection, and establishing if it's the sort of effort you want to make...
Not that it's hard, one just needs to be a bit more methodical ;)
Once you've got a FLAC collection then other options might be worth considering, but a decent laptop/PC with a USB DAC is a nice way to dip your toe in the water...
If you're comfortable with a NAS all the better, your collection is then available everywhere in the house...:)
bobbasrah
19-11-2012, 18:06
... even any old laptop you have knocking around....
Once you've got a FLAC collection then other options might be worth considering, but a decent laptop/PC with a USB DAC is a nice way to dip your toe in the water...
If you're comfortable with a NAS all the better, your collection is then available everywhere in the house...:)
If file based does suit, get onto the ripping and tagging, AND BACK IT UP !!!
Technically older machines are quite capable, but they may not necessarily be so clean sonically, which is where many critics point to the SMPS, occasionally correctly, more usually through habit. :eyebrows:
eg - I changed out the PSU on a XP machine for that reason and it made no difference. Only after hooking up the linear it became apparent it was switching noise on the board I was hearing not the PSU. The HTPC got the new PSU, the linear went back on the workbench. No loss.:rolleyes:
If the idea of a headless build suits or a HTPC appeals, newer motherboards are very much quieter and better designed than their predecessors with lower power demands. Good quality SMPS are widely available, even though to some the concept remains heresy unless installed in exotic kit... :scratch:
Neal and Tim (and Will) have suggested a Netbook (laptop), and they are relatively cheap these days. Do your research on the machines with others using them for your purpose (Spdif/USB/"), and you will limit the pitfalls....:cool:
I wonder Tim, were you to revisit the journey around the dealers armed with your new machine and setup rather than the netbook, how much your observation on "the void was small regarding SQ" would change....;)
brian2957
19-11-2012, 19:07
That's very good advice actually Neal and exactly where I started, I built up in stages over time, before I committed to it fully. I didn't fancy ripping over 2,000 CD's until I was totally sure it was the right road to go down. As we have seen here a lot don't either like the idea, or don't take to it when they try it, you need to be sure its right for you. I took a netbook, foobar2000 and a DAC around a whole bunch of dealers trying different combinations out, which is where I heard the Bryston BDP-1 and Bryston DAC. At that stage I hadn't spent a dime as I had the netbook and DAC already. I compared the notebook to many high-end CDPs and streamers and a common theme arose, in that the void was small regarding SQ, but the price differences were significant.
Wise words from Neal there Simon.
Final thought have you heard many streamers/servers Simon and do you like how they sound? If the answer is no I haven't heard many, do that first ;)
That's exactly how I started Tim . A second hand laptop and a cheap DAC .
Following some help from your good self and a few others on here I couldn't believe my ears . I would have loved to have been present when you visited the dealers . Bet a few eyebrows were raised:eyebrows:. I've been happily using my Windows 7 / JRiver server for some months now . I recently bought a Rega DAC , and today added a Brio R amplifier . Bliss :D .
I wonder Tim, were you to revisit the journey around the dealers armed with your new machine and setup rather than the netbook, how much your observation on "the void was small regarding SQ" would change....
That's an interesting one Bob and not something I have thought about - I certainly know that what I have now is an improvement on every previous version and also an EDO modded SBT - I still like the idea of a SBT, a very neat and elegant solution and for most people it ticks all the boxes, but it lacked in a few areas for my needs.
You are right about newer motherboards too, much improved.
Just to re-iterate another of your points Bob, as there have been some admissions forthcoming in this regard, the number one most important thing to consider if you take to file based audio is BACK IT UP ;)
That's exactly how I started Tim . A second hand laptop and a cheap DAC .
Following some help from your good self and a few others on here I couldn't believe my ears . I would have loved to have been present when you visited the dealers . Bet a few eyebrows were raised:eyebrows:. I've been happily using my Windows 7 / JRiver server for some months now . I recently bought a Rega DAC , and today added a Brio R amplifier . Bliss :D .
Another Rega fanboi ;)
If file based does suit, get onto the ripping and tagging, AND BACK IT UP !!!
Good point well made Bob...:)
By the way I eventually bought those IPLs, the 'Kit' arrived on Friday...the components look fantastic, but you know that feeling of having bitten off more than one can chew!...Time for a bit of outsourcing I think :cool:
I recently bought a Rega DAC , and today added a Brio R amplifier
They go well together don't they Brian, for the money hard to beat IMO. Not sure if there is more going on too, but I have a very organic non-digital sound with my current combination, which still continues to surprise me. Will you be trying differing inputs to the DAC and if you do, it would be interesting to see which you favour as there do seem to be two schools of thought here. I much prefer the USB input, but I think I'm a minority.
brian2957
19-11-2012, 20:26
I hadn't really thought about swapping inputs Tim . I use the V-Link and have always favoured the coax input . I will in the near future try the USB input , once I've become used to the changes in my system, and post my findings. Should be interesting. Which USB cable are you using . I'm currently using a Furutech Formula 2 .
I hadn't really thought about swapping inputs Tim . I use the V-Link and have always favoured the coax input
Then ignore me Brian, if you are happy stay there and enjoy the music :eyebrows:
brian2957
19-11-2012, 21:11
Ha!!! too late , you've planted the seeds of curiosity mate :ner: My life can sometimes be a series of ' what ifs ' :mental: . Must have too much time on my hands . That's what the wife says anyway . :D
Noooooooooo, don't do it Brian
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/226900.gif
:lol:
brian2957
19-11-2012, 21:20
Don't do suicide mate , I'm too bliddy selfish . Or is that the wife :lol:
Could be in for a bout of cable swapping in the near future though . I'll be back :eyebrows:
How do you do that BTW.
How do you do that BTW.
I now have many secret powers, bestowed to me from the head daftee Marco ;)
(or you can of course just use Google images and find a suitable .gif)
I now have many secret powers, bestowed to me from the head daftee Marco ;)
You sayin' Marco's daft in the head? I'm sure many would agree with you on that subject. :lol: .
Dave.
brian2957
19-11-2012, 21:46
Ah forgot you were a Jedi Knight now.:lol:
Only problem with Rega USB iput is that it doesn't do 24/96.
Maybe not a problem but worth bearing in mind.
It does 16/44 VERY well.
Ah forgot you were a Jedi Knight now.:lol:
The farce is strong in this one...
bobbasrah
20-11-2012, 07:00
....By the way I eventually bought those IPLs, the 'Kit' arrived on Friday...the components look fantastic, but you know that feeling of having bitten off more than one can chew!...Time for a bit of outsourcing I think :cool:
Good grief, that was a long time in planning, so long I forget which IPL you were going for.....:scratch: If you need any advice on their assembly etc, PM me. I can call UK landlines from here also at no cost, if required.:D
Not sure what you need to outsource Will, unless short of tools/space, mine were routed and painted on a 3rd floor balcony, assembled in the hallway...
Ivan's notes are quite detailed, assembly is simplicity itself, all that is required is the desire to try...;)
Good grief, that was a long time in planning, so long I forget which IPL you were going for.....:scratch: If you need any advice on their assembly etc, PM me. I can call UK landlines from here also at no cost, if required.:D
Not sure what you need to outsource Will, unless short of tools/space, mine were routed and painted on a 3rd floor balcony, assembled in the hallway...
Ivan's notes are quite detailed, assembly is simplicity itself, all that is required is the desire to try...;)
I know it's been a while, I ended up getting distracted by front end upgrades, now that things have stabilised I've taken the plunge...these are the fellows;
http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk/S5tl%20Kevlar%202.htm
I'm sure I'll be Ok with the construction, with a bit of guidance, so I may be taking you up on your kind offer Bob. I just need to be methodical, and do it correctly...patience, patience :eyebrows:
I made my S3TLM's on the dinning room table,but yours look quite a bit bigger.Good luck and use plenty of glue.Any help needed pm me..
Thanks for all the fascinating links!
I suppose, looking at the Computer Audiophile Pocket Server as a paradigm for this sort of thing, my basic question is this: if I was building a CAPS now, what would be today's equivalent motherboard/processor combination to that used in CAPS 2.0? The latter was designed and built back in the stone age of early 2011 after all :lol:
Seriously, one of the things that is moving on fast at the moment in the computer industry is the low power/high performance end of the spectrum, so i'd like to understand what I get for how much - and then I can compare it with a solution like Keith's which seems to have been made of a bag of old bits. Since I have quite a few old bits lying around the latter may be the wisest course!
Hi Simon,
If you are looking to dip your toes in PC audio, how about one of these?
http://www.ebuyer.com/395465-acer-revo-l70-nettop-pc-dt-smgek-003
£250 for everything you need, including Windows 8. I have one and it sounds marvellous. Haven't compared it with a home built unit yet though, so can't say if its better or worse SQ wise. Mine does dual duties as a music player when at home and a general purpose PC when away from home.
I also have a rega dac and prefer the sound via the spdif inputs to the USB.
Cheers,
Thanks Martin; yes, I've been having a think about that and other nettops as well. Perhaps following some of the advice given earlier in the thread about starting with something before leaping to a definitive system is wise. Could even think about a Sonos :)
I made my S3TLM's on the dinning room table,but yours look quite a bit bigger.Good luck and use plenty of glue.Any help needed pm me..
Cheers mate, I may need about an acre, plenty of glue, and some careful planning I think...:eyebrows:
Thanks Martin; yes, I've been having a think about that and other nettops as well. Perhaps following some of the advice given earlier in the thread about starting with something before leaping to a definitive system is wise. Could even think about a Sonos :)
Not sure about Sonos :scratch: i bet that it would get expensive quite quickly.
With my Revo nettop, I have the music files stored on the built-in HDD (750 GB), so no NAS needed. One could be added later, if required.
Then installed JRiver (£35-ish) and away you go - no twiddling needed!
The Revo has USB and optical spdif. I use the optical to stream spotify and the usb to stream JRiver to my DAC, via a Musical Fidelity V-Link II (£99).
I control my unit from my tablet (JRemote app) or from my phone (Gizmo app) and it works perfectly and reliably.
If I need to access the Revo for maintenance, I either plug it into my TV with a mouse and keyboard or use remote access from my tablet. Simples.
Mine is connected to the internet/router via ethernet - i disabled the built-in wifi, but it's there if you need it.
I'd recommend this unit wholeheartedly, it costs a lot less than buying the individual component parts, is ready to go and sounds really good in my system.
My next system will probably be a home-build unit. I'll probably then use the Revo as a NAS to serve music files, so I wont have wasted any ££££s.:)
cheers,
Could even think about a Sonos :)
There are some issues to consider if you go down the Sonos route, firstly it has a file number ceiling of 65,000, that's file numbers, not albums so if you have, or will have a large collection, you will hit a brick wall.
It cannot play HD files, you are limited to red book 16/44.
Very expensive for what you get and not as flexible as building your own. It is however popular amongst the masses, but I don't really consider it audiophile, whatever that is ;)
See if you can trial it before committing would be my advice?
There are some issues to consider if you go down the Sonos route...
See if you can trial it before committing would be my advice?
Excellent advice; I will try to follow it.
Sonos is certainly a simple and elegant solution that has WAF, but high-end it isn't, just depends on where you set the bar and how much money you have! ;)
bobbasrah
24-11-2012, 07:10
Sonos is certainly a simple and elegant solution that has WAF, but high-end it isn't, just depends on where you set the bar and how much money you have! ;)
Agreed 100%.
Sonos is a simple solution marketed as was B&O at the height of wealthy yuppy fashion. It may look good and be a "out of the box" solution, but even overlooking it's constraints it is definitely NOT value for money.
Now, i must respectfully disagree here.
How do you define value for money if the Sonos Connect does not fit the bill?
It does:
Stream audio at a respectable 16bit/44-48Khz resolution
Gives you digital output options as well as decent sounding analog option.
Provides one analog line in for your tt :lol: (Actually have tried that!)
Sets up in under 10minutes... By your wife/mother in law...
Gives you controling options via your pad/smartphone that leaves most other systems in it's wake.
Allows you to play Spotify/Wimp etc directly.
Allows you to play Internet radio directly
It does NOT:
Demand a complicated server system correctly set up by NASA technicians and maintained every day by petting and grooming! (Sorry, got a little Sqearried away there... :eyebrows:)
Impose a big and complex physical presence in your living quarters.
But i also agree, it's not HighEnd, but if that was available for some £250 then we'd be surprised wouldnt we? It does however, sound very good when feeding an external DAC.
Best of all, is the fact that any old network disk will do as a source storage. And! It accepts most reasonable formats!
My 5öre! :cool:
/Mike
Stratmangler
24-11-2012, 09:46
Have Sonos conquered the gapless playback thing yet?
Now, i must respectfully disagree here.
How do you define value for money if the Sonos Connect does not fit the bill?
It does:
Stream audio at a respectable 16bit/44-48Khz resolution
Gives you digital output options as well as decent sounding analog option.
Provides one analog line in for your tt :lol: (Actually have tried that!)
Sets up in under 10minutes... By your wife/mother in law...
Gives you controling options via your pad/smartphone that leaves most other systems in it's wake.
Allows you to play Spotify/Wimp etc directly.
Allows you to play Internet radio directly
It does NOT:
Demand a complicated server system correctly set up by NASA technicians and maintained every day by petting and grooming! (Sorry, got a little Sqearried away there... :eyebrows:)
Impose a big and complex physical presence in your living quarters.
But i also agree, it's not HighEnd, but if that was available for some £250 then we'd be surprised wouldnt we? It does however, sound very good when feeding an external DAC.
Best of all, is the fact that any old network disk will do as a source storage. And! It accepts most reasonable formats!
My 5öre! :cool:
/Mike
Well said Mike.
In my experience, most "high end" solutions come without much regard for the usability and are therefore useless if you have a family that wants to use it.
Every time I consider making a change to my system, I have to keep in mind that everyone in the house needs to be able to use it and that it needs to be reliable. If that means sacrificing the last 10% of SQ, so be it.
Having said that, I have my Windows 8 music PC set up now and it's been running for a week or so without missing a beat :)
My 6 year old daughter can use it without any issues, so it passes the test on all counts.
Total cost with PC, v-link and JRiver is £380.
Cheers,
Have Sonos conquered the gapless playback thing yet?
I actually haven't seen this issue at all? Just checked to make sure, and at least Roger Waters - Amused to Death passes the test unmarked...
I play my files from a network share and they are all in AIFF format.
Regards Mike
Lived with a Sonos system for a month a few years back, it's a great bit of kit and sounds very good IMHO. On paper it looks expensive but some units have amplifiers built in so you need to factor that in. Back then the controller sucked but the newer version looks good and the app is really good. I also liked the ability to stream audio in different directions. IE from the TV to the hifi and from my LP to a unit in a bedroom.
I think for most people SONOS would be the perfect solution, its only fussy buggers like us that want more - who's right? Most people don't have CD collections that run to thousands and they wouldn't know what the heck you meant by a 'high-res' file, much less care.
I agree the app is good too and for an out the box solution it will doubtless impress the market its aimed at. I did consider it for awhile, but for me the deal breaker is the file limit as I will hit it at some point. I have two friends who run SONOS systems and don't do much more than stream from Napster and they love it.
I guess at the end of the day, you pays your money and takes your choice. I do think its expensive though, if you want to build a complete system. I wouldn't want one with a built in amp anyway, so only weighed up the specs and cost of the other elements of the system and they are not what I would call value for money, but then I am comparing that against what I can achieve. If you are an Apple fan then it would fit very nicely into a digital home audio system.
So don't be put off by what us hyper critical folk say if you fancy it, trial it and see if it fits your needs and enjoy the music ;)
I thought that mentioning Sonos would stimulate some responses:whistle:
Some have mentioned the expense of a complete system, which can certainly mount up. However, if you simply get a Sonos Connect (~£280) as a means for executing the 802.3 protocol for shuffling bits from one place to another and then add a high quality DAC (Mr. Beresford's comes in under £200 does it not?) then you are still well short of the price of most of the "name" streamers - and you have an extremely competent software interface to go with it.
Yes, the 65K track limit is a pain and the red book limitation may put some off, but it certainly looks worth considering.
But then so does a nettop; and a self build and and...
Well spoken, Tim! :)
Eremite, i'm pretty sure you'll be content which ever route you decide upon!
And just to make things even more complicated;
Have you considered AirPlay as a method of transferring music files?
An AirPort Express cost around £60-70 and actually most likely will surprise you when it comes to audio quality! It suffers from the rez-limit also, and please stay with pure RedBook files (16bit/44.1kHz) as it doesn't resample well.
You're constrained to optical SPDIF but that is not an entirely bad thing actually... :rolleyes:
To feed signal to these you will need to use iTunes, which gives some people the creeps though... To me, it's the best audio library management system out there. :eyebrows:
And what makes this really useful, your iTunes may be anywhere in your house and you can remote control playback using Apple Remote (if you've got an iThingy with a display)
It's a world of choices out there, mate! :cool:
Regards Mike
guyhayton
25-11-2012, 11:11
Have you considered AirPlay as a method of transferring music files?
An AirPort Express cost around £60-70 and actually most likely will surprise you when it comes to audio quality ... You're constrained to optical SPDIF but that is not an entirely bad thing ... you can remote control playback using Apple Remote (if you've got an iThingy with a display)
Well +1 for an Airport Express solution. I am very impressed with mine.
If you have't got an iThingy then you can also remote control the system via a laptop using
ITunesRemote-SE (http://code.google.com/p/tunesremote-se/)
or if you use an Android phone or tablet
iTunes Remote for Android (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=hyperfine.hftunes.release&hl=en)
Have you considered AirPlay as a method of transferring music files?
...
To feed signal to these you will need to use iTunes, which gives some people the creeps though...
Hi Mike,
No I hadn't thought of Airplay, thanks for the suggestion.
I admit I know nothing of it. Does it basically act as a bit shuffler in the way that the Sonos does? But you are tied entirely into the Apple ecosystem in that you have to use iTunes to the exclusion of anything else?
Friends of mine (who otherwise praise Apple) curse iTunes, so I'm a bit nervous...
Hi Mike,
No I hadn't thought of Airplay, thanks for the suggestion.
I admit I know nothing of it. Does it basically act as a bit shuffler in the way that the Sonos does? But you are tied entirely into the Apple ecosystem in that you have to use iTunes to the exclusion of anything else?
Friends of mine (who otherwise praise Apple) curse iTunes, so I'm a bit nervous...
Stay well away from iTunes !!!
'tis the devil's software ;)
Does it basically act as a bit shuffler in the way that the Sonos does? But you are tied entirely into the Apple ecosystem in that you have to use iTunes to the exclusion of anything else?
Yes and no, it is only a reciever of audio streams (unless were talking about AppleTV, which also can handle video duties)
You dont necessarily have to use iTunes but i'm pretty sure that will be the most convenient solution. Most audio apps on your iThingy can send output to an AirPort Express of your choice. And, you can group more than one AE and send one stream to these, at the same time you are sending another stream to a third AE in another part of your house.
One difference between AirPlay and Sonos is the fact that Sonos creates it's own WLAN to communicate between devices (if you have more than one unit)
AirPlay relies on your current network for transmission, wireless or wire bound.
I have an app in my iPad that is called PS Audio E-Lyric. with that one i get music from my NAS and send it to any unit on my network capable of rendering a stream (in plain english, that can play audio from network)
That includes AirPlay Units, UPnP renderers like Boxee or my Bladelius Embla for that matter. I'm pretty sure there are other options also out there.
Regards //Mike
So, I've been listening to all the really useful advice you've been giving me and after having followed links and read opinions and compared specs I've decided to take it slow for the moment. There's just so much choice out there and the market is moving very quickly (especially in the low power computer side of things; the Intel/ARM battle to come looks fascinating).
So, I'm just going to use my laptop into a USB DAC and see how things go; let's find out what I like and what frustrates. I have spent a bit of money and ordered one of these new-fangled Epiphany Acoustics E-DACs as it seemed a nice balance between cost and performance (according to those that have heard, anyway). I'll probably add a Synology NAS at a later stage, but for the moment, I'll just go off internal storage and plug-in USB storage.
So, I'm just going to use my laptop into a USB DAC and see how things go
That's a good idea and how I started on the streaming route. To be frank, I didn't take much notice of the advice I was given initially, but got out and about listening to all that was available and took my time. The more you hear the better placed you are to make an informed decision. The advice I did listen to was John's (Welder) who told me to build my own, so glad I did too. But IMO you should listen to all that is available as well as trying the laptop/DAC thing to see if its for you - it may not be, as it doesn't suit everyone.
No rush, as its a big step if you go over to it 100% like I have. But use the advice here as a guide only would be my advice, but ultimately you have to try it to know what's right for you, preferably in your own home with your own music and most importantly in your own time ;)
Hi Tim,
While you're there can you answer me a quick puzzle? The Computer Audiophile CAPS 2.0 self-build suggest using USB as an output and has to get around USB limitations with a relatively expensive add-on. Why did he not go down the road of using spdif out? Or does this (still) have limitations of its own?
Ta.
Its not something I am particularly knowledgeable about, but its more to do with power, which is something John has tested and can attest to. The USB card that CAPS uses is powered separately, so you are isolating it away from the main system and providing the output with its own regulated power source, instead of drawing power from the motherboard Bus which has an effect on the audio quality. It also incorporates a power line noise filter, or at least that's my understanding.
Speaking of my own system I much prefer the USB output to the Rega DAC over SPDIF, despite it only being red book, so he may have chosen it with other components in mind? My new board has high current USB outputs which I will be using, SPDIF isn't a route I have chosen either, but that's due to my DAC.
If its something that really interests you, I would ask the question on the CA forum for a definitive answer.
So, I've been listening to all the really useful advice you've been giving me and after having followed links and read opinions and compared specs I've decided to take it slow for the moment. There's just so much choice out there and the market is moving very quickly (especially in the low power computer side of things; the Intel/ARM battle to come looks fascinating).
So, I'm just going to use my laptop into a USB DAC and see how things go; let's find out what I like and what frustrates. I have spent a bit of money and ordered one of these new-fangled Epiphany Acoustics E-DACs as it seemed a nice balance between cost and performance (according to those that have heard, anyway). I'll probably add a Synology NAS at a later stage, but for the moment, I'll just go off internal storage and plug-in USB storage.
Sounds like a good plan Simon, be sure to let us know how it's going :)
Cheers,
I've just noticed that CAPS version 3 (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/490-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-p-s-v3-introduction/) has been announced. Few details so far, but there's a range of h/w possibilities from the ordinary-off-the-shelf bolt together jobby to the more esoteric...
I've just noticed that CAPS version 3 (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/490-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-p-s-v3-introduction/) has been announced. Few details so far, but there's a range of h/w possibilities from the ordinary-off-the-shelf bolt together jobby to the more esoteric...
Looks very interesting - looking forward to seeing the details when they are published.
Thanks for the link Simon.
LittleTone
04-12-2012, 15:50
Simon
Here's another bit of info; you may find interesting
http://www.itemaudio.com/index.php/forum/32-computer-audio-recipes/68-third-generation-basic-t1-recipe.html
Regards
Good read.
Interesting point about the electrical noise generated by the optical drive?
I'm going to unplug my internal BD rom from my music server, never use it.
Can plug it in if I ever need it.
Will see if that makes any difference.
Yup, theres a slight imrovement right enough. :)
After the announcement of CAPS version 3, the details start to emerge. The specification of the least expensive/sophisticated in the range of four models has just been posted on the Computer Audiophile (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/494-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-p-s-v3-topangas/) website.
They've gone for nothing fancy in this build, with an Intel DN2800MT board hosting a 32nm Atom N2800 processor from the Cedarview range. There appears to be very little tweaking to the basic build (leave the front panel USBs unconnected appears to be the limit of it).
What do those who have built their own think of this then?
After the announcement of CAPS version 3, the details start to emerge. The specification of the least expensive/sophisticated in the range of four models has just been posted on the Computer Audiophile (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/494-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-p-s-v3-topangas/) website.
They've gone for nothing fancy in this build, with an Intel DN2800MT board hosting a 32nm Atom N2800 processor from the Cedarview range. There appears to be very little tweaking to the basic build (leave the front panel USBs unconnected appears to be the limit of it).
What do those who have built their own think of this then?
I reckon that this is probably a good place to start and also offers good upgrade potential too.
The only proviso is that you need to be able to build your own PC and configure/maintain it.
From personal experience, its a good solution if you just want to play ripped music. If you want to add music services like Spotify, it gets more complicated. I've got on-going issues with my hardware not shutting down properly and random problems with remote access via PC/tablet. If you want a fit and forget solution, I'd avoid windows personally.
In my search for the perfect source (for my needs) I've got one of these on loan:
http://asset0.cbsistatic.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/08/27/Sonos_Connect_Amp_33190899_02_200x150.jpghttp://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/sc/733c4f00-3962-42ec-bc52-3438719338d5.jpg
For £400 you get to stream your music collection, spotify, napster etc, internet radio, airplay-like streaming from tablet or smartphone and a built-in 55 wpc class D amp. Control is from a free tablet or smartphone app. There's a version without the built in amp available for £279.
Will be testing it this weekend to see if its any good.
In my search for the perfect source (for my needs) I've got one of these on loan:
http://asset0.cbsistatic.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/08/27/Sonos_Connect_Amp_33190899_02_200x150.jpghttp://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/sc/733c4f00-3962-42ec-bc52-3438719338d5.jpg
Yup, this has been on my radar as well (the version without amp). I'd be very interested to hear how you get on with it!
Yup, this has been on my radar as well (the version without amp). I'd be very interested to hear how you get on with it!
Me too - my mate wants to know if they're any good...
:popcorn:
From personal experience, its a good solution if you just want to play ripped music. If you want to add music services like Spotify, it gets more complicated. I've got on-going issues with my hardware not shutting down properly and random problems with remote access via PC/tablet. If you want a fit and forget solution, I'd avoid windows personally.
Is that due to Windows 8 Martin as I don't experience any of the above issues myself and I use JRiver and Spotify? I still have Win7 but was looking to switch over to 8 this weekend.
Simon, thanks for the link re the new CAPS server. Interestingly Chris Connaker has selected identical components to me, which confirms common agreement about the best components to use right now and he finally seems to be embracing the need to use a good power supply, which is something I have learned from AoS. I shall (when I get round to it) be using a Paul Hynes unit for my server and want to build a complete stand alone unit which houses the player, power supply and music library.
I have tried Sonos but its not for me, but it is a simple elegant solution which for most people should save them a lot of building/setup issues. Its a non-starter for me due to its file limit, as I'm well on the way to exceeding it. I wasn't too happy with how it sounded either, but it can be improved with modifications to the internals and higher grade power supply.
No issues with Windows 8 here using Spotify and Jriver Tim.
Using x64 Pro.
Speaking of Spotify, the bitrate shows up on my Rega Dac as 192k!
Wonder why, something to do with my Vlink 192? :scratch:
*EDIT*
Just checked the LEDs on the Vlink, the 192k light is lit up??
Curious!
Sounds very good at the "official" 320k though.
Have a free 3 month subscription (thanks Virgin!) and I think I'll be picking it up again when it lapses.
Is there an AOS Spotify section where we can share playlists n stuff?
Alex?
Is there an AOS Spotify section where we can share plylists n stuff?
Alex?
Never had a specific section, but we can set one up if there is enough interest. :)
I had a Sonos for a short while but I sent it back. For me, it was flaky over a wireless connection which apparently it does not support!?
Also, its integration with iTunes album art is limited. Or should I say the iPad Sonos app is. It won't display artwork over a certain file size, something like 320kb. I had loads over that size. It was a PITA.
I now use two airport express's and either the iTunes remote app or the music app on the iPad. Works brilliantly.
Well, I've got it connected to my Neat Motive 2s and I have a big problem.
There's no way that this £400 box of tricks should sound that good :scratch:
The built in amp is a very good match to my speakers - probably a better sonic match than my Exposure actually. It's dynamic without being too forward and certainly not fatiguing.
I'm not saying that its better or even as good as my £300 PC + £100 V-link II + £500 Rega DAC + £850 Amp, but its not a million miles away.
I reckon that this takes some beating for the money. Add some decent speakers and you will be satisfied :)
Selecting and playing music from all the sources is completely seamless and done from the same tablet app. The app is not as good as the JRemote one, but its close.
No problem with the Internet connection, as I have it connected with Ethernet.
Couple of minor issues though:
It has a line in to add another analogue source. Great, but if you connect it to your TV, there's a delay that makes TV sound out of sync with the picture. Drat!
I'd like IR control of the volume and mute. To control volume, you have controls on the front of the box or you control it from your tablet.
Just listening to Leonard Cohen's "Ten New Songs" on Spotify and its very, very good indeed :)
Not sure what to do now...
Stratmangler
08-12-2012, 16:32
but if you connect it to your TV, there's a delay that makes TV sound out of sync with the picture. Drat!
It's for this very reason that I use the TV as a hub for anything connected to it.
My TV connects to my DAC via optical connection, but all the AV stuff/games consoles (my son's) switch through the TV.
The soundtracks and sounds of some of the games are pretty impressive too :)
Not sure what to do now...
I would give it some more time if you can, I only had one for a weekend but that was enough for me to decide. It might just be what you want, but do consider the 65,000 file limit (if you have a large and growing library) as well as the restriction to red book for playback.
I personally didn't think it sounded as mature as JRiver and a good server, but your experience may differ. It left me feeling flat after around an hour and wanting to do something else. Funnily enough I was discussing Sonos at work this week, as another colleague has bought one and is very pleased with it - so that's 3 people I now know who love it - seems I'm in the minority yet again ;)
http://forums.sonos.com/showthread.php?t=22502
http://forums.sonos.com/showthread.php?t=25010
I would give it some more time if you can, I only had one for a weekend but that was enough for me to decide. It might just be what you want, but do consider the 65,000 file limit (if you have a large and growing library) as well as the restriction to red book for playback.
I personally didn't think it sounded as mature as JRiver and a good server, but your experience may differ. It left me feeling flat after around an hour and wanting to do something else. Funnily enough I was discussing Sonos at work this week, as another colleague has bought one and is very pleased with it - so that's 3 people I now know who love it - seems I'm in the minority yet again ;)
http://forums.sonos.com/showthread.php?t=22502
http://forums.sonos.com/showthread.php?t=25010
Thanks Tim, I'm not rushing to make any decisions on this one.
However, the Sonos is proving to be a massive hit with my family. We've been partying all weekend - my 6 yr old daughter and I are big 70s disco fans and it really, really boogies :). The amp does get a bit hot if you push it, but it goes plenty loud enough with easy to drive speakers.
A good feature is the ability to create playlists with tracks from mixed sources I.e. flacs from the NAS, spotify or tablet
memory. Nice. I'm finding myself using spotify more and more, so the 65,000 file limit won't be a problem.
Just listening to Jennifer Warnes "the well" on spotify and it sounds beautiful :)
Cheers,
Buy a 2nd hand Sb Touch :)
However, the Sonos is proving to be a massive hit with my family.
I think Sonos taken in this context is definitely going to be a winner ;)
Buy a 2nd hand Sb Touch :)
What for?
What for?
To me its a better alternative than a Sonos.
Soundwise, reliability wise..
Thought I read someone was considering going down this route.
To me its a better alternative than a Sonos.
Soundwise, reliability wise..
Thought I read someone was considering going down this route.
I never really considered the touch as an option, as I used to have a SB duet. Nice bit of kit, but I just couldn't get it to work reliably in my home network, unfortunately.
Having owned/tried them both, my vote is 100% for Sonos on all counts. The SB may sound better perhaps, but this Sonos with amp unit is really working sonically in my room and with my speakers. Looks like it may be a keeper :)
Cheers,
that's what matters Martin :)
The Sonos box looks a nice bit of kit.
For those that have been reading about the CAPS servers on Computer Audiophile, the next instalment (Lagoon) has just been announced. Chris Connaker's latest CAPS (Computer Audiophile Pocket Server) v3.0 comes in 4 variants, the first 3 being upgradeable and he's based them on the same board I selected for my build - seems great minds think alike ;)
Computer Audiophile Pocket Server C.A.P.S. v3 Lagoon (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/495-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-p-s-v3-lagoon/)
http://images.computeraudiophile.com/graphics/2012/1212/opening-photo.jpg
Lagoon adds an optional external High-Current battery power supply as well as other enhancements.
It's now been a couple of weeks since the Sonos Connect: Amp arrived at my place and the verdict is that it's definitely staying.
It meets my needs on all counts - sound quality, usability and reliability. In fact, it's one of those rare products that exceeds all expectations.
Sound quality is great with my Neat speakers. Probably better than the PC/v-link II/Rega DAC/Exposure combo that it replaces (~£2,000 worth). It's got a very listenable sound quality indeed. Some may find it a bit laid back, more of a vintage "pipe and slippers" presentation, but its great for me.
It has the ability to seamlessly control the whole system including FLACs on my NAS, Spotify, internet radio, music files on my tablet etc. Plus, I can plug my TV into it for TV sound through my main speakers. Great :)
As to reliability, in the 2 weeks that it's been installed, it hasn't missed a beat. No reboots, resets, lost connections, nothing! The control apps for my ipad and android phone have been 100% reliable too.
Found a couple of minus points though. I'd like IR control of volume to fully integrate it into my TV/DVD/STB setup and the case looks a bit cheap compared to my exposure amp.
Most important is that there's been much more music playing in my house since the Sonos arrived. My wife and 6 year old daughter can use it now (not easy with the PC as source) and they usually put something on when they are in. What more could you ask for?
Cheers :cool:
Most important is that there's been much more music playing in my house since the Sonos arrived.
Glad its worked out for you Martin - the above statement is what its all about, regardless of cost, status, badges or bling ;)
In the post Xmas haze, I've only just noticed that the fourth version of CAPS (Computer Audiophile Pocket Server) v3 has appeared on the Computer Audiophile website. (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/497-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-p-s-v3-zuma/)
For this version, the Intel Atom line of processors has been passed over in favour of a Core series processor. And, no messing, an i7 part has been chosen! In the write-up the i7-3770S has been chosen (as the lower TDP i7-3770T had low availability at the time of construction).
I must admit I'm surprised at his choice; surely an i3 T part would be more than enough for any audio function?
Yes, I agree, but I think he has used an i7 for those users that still wish a high powered machine, as some people just do :scratch: It also gives them the option for HD Video too, so not just audio. Not something I would do though and an i3 can do HD video, but there are still those that think the more power, the better the sound.
He keeps pinching my ideas too :lol: I have had my eye on that Streacom case for some while and I see he has gone for the Intel DN2800MT MB, for all the other 3 CAPS in the line-up. I bought one in August as the best solution for a small low power server ;)
Good to see than there is an element of agreement though. Mind you Item Audio don't agree on using an Atom CPU anymore and they do have a point, now that you can buy low TDP Celeron CPU's like the G400 series.
I think if I was buying a board now, I would go for a 35W TDP G series Celeron and a high quality Intel mITX board. I may yet still do so, as I'm just finalising what I hope to be my last server build for sometime.
I’ve got an i5 running in my server atm. I believe this was something I advocated a couple of years ago. :eyebrows:
Nice to see you popping in again, John. Hope you had a great Christmas and new year! :)
Marco.
Indeed, all the best from me too John.
:cool:
A low end Sandybridge would have had plenty of grunt for HD video, but the choice is sound.
Nice case too :)
Cheers Marco and Tim. :)
Christmas etc was good thank you, if a bit different. Here in Catalonia it all happens on the 6th of Jan; three kings day. :scratch:
We had a more British Christmas Eve here and did the presents and eating bit then. My Brother-In-Law and Sister went off to Canada to see their son shortly after Christmas leaving me in charge of the circus (assorted animals of two and four legged variety); not to mention a paying guest who had rented the granny flat for a few days. Anyway, nobody died so it’s all good. I haven’t really had much opportunity to post here; kinda busy finding my feet and trying to remember not to drive the Land Rover on the left etc etc. :eek::D
Hi Fi certainly sounds different in a a room with solid walls, clay tiled ceiling and floor and interestingly, a sloping ceiling with tree trunks as beams below the tile level which does wonders for the acoustics.
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