View Full Version : The real thing - or just a facsimilie?
What do you strive for in a system, getting it to sound "live" or as near as, or are you satisified with just a facsimile of what was intended?
My taste is for a tangible and direct sound that really delivers. I have had small, medium and large speakers. Standmounts can be very impressive for their size. However, once I went larger I realised that I was in fact kidding myself that they were an accurate representation of the whole musical spectrum.
I always believe its about creating the illusion of live/recorded music.
I also had small standmounts and for awhile was happy with them but in the end I was just missing to much music. Music has tremendous scale and you need a lot of resolution to pull this off. I did hear some big stanmounts at Coherent systems that could do this but they were not cheap and behaved more like big floor standers so can be done with standmounts
Are you saying you preferred the stand mounts over floorstanders??
I must admit I've only ever had floor standers. Started with KEF kits from the 80's....transmission line based on Cambridge R50 but 3 way without the supertweets. They can be very good with very very low bass extension but can be slow until tuned correctly. Since then I've had a few different from the middle weight class inc KEF (poor by comparison to the old KEF) and mission (sold to the masses rubbish) through to the entry level focal floorstanders which after some xover upgrades and a rewire sounded like much more expensive speakers. I can only conclude, the money went in the drivers and not the photographed plastic wood finish!! I now run better Focals (826v WSE) which has the 800 series cabs with 900/1000 series drivers for the mid and bass. To be honest I'm very impressed.
Lets be honest, it's all a facsimile.......you know yourself when you are getting close but as there may be 20+ different instruments creating individual resonances at any 1 time in a piece of music, it doesn't matter if you are playing it back through one cone or 5, it's all just a representation of the original sound.
Nope just saying standmounts when well designed like the £48000 pair I heard sounded very good indeed, none of the box coloration and the same sense of scale Sorry cannot remember the make and they are pretty big standmounts
I am very happy with two big 15" drivers on my open baffles
I suppose I am lucky that I am not constrained as to the volume at which I can listen. Take today, Friday afternoon....some tunes.....some beer.....more beer....you get the picture, the volume rises.
By the end of the session the volume was a fair bit more than I would normally use, even after a heavy session. However I was surprised at how it all held together...... and I didn't even have to pay them all after they left:lol:
Are you saying you preferred the stand mounts over floorstanders??
Lets be honest, it's all a facsimile.......you know yourself when you are getting close but as there may be 20+ different instruments creating individual resonances at any 1 time in a piece of music, it doesn't matter if you are playing it back through one cone or 5, it's all just a representation of the original sound.
1. No.
2. Of course
i think the biggest problem with reproding music is , everyone has tunes bouncing around inside their heads , and this i think is the root of all evil , you are trying to replicate a sound from your mind , i have through default managed most way there , close , but as mr waters said no cigar , but getting there , but this is simply is the reason for one mans' poison etc
Yes we all have different prefences. I heard many a great system but in the end will perfer the sound I get in my own system and think my friends would say the same with thier systems but also think we have more in common than the differences
For sure but I think at a high level, we all want the same thing. Clarity, dynamics, the presence of a live performance, tonal balance, reality....
You know when you hear something that sounds right. Sometimes just listening to something in the background in a hifi shop causes your ears to prick up.
I guess at the end of the day, its all subjective
agreed its called music , after all its the one single denominator we all have in common , we simply differ in the way its reproduced
Yes we all have different prefences. I heard many a great system but in the end will perfer the sound I get in my own system and think my friends would say the same with thier systems but also think we have more in common than the differences
I discovered an artist called Nick Drake today and I have been working through his back catalogue on Spotify and quite honestly he sounds as if he is here playing in the room, so that is where I'm at :cool:
Nick Drake totally fantastic
ah , another (though i don't know who the engineer is ) as a whole superb , green is one of my personnal favs
I discovered an artist called Nick Drake today and I have been working through his back catalogue on Spotify and quite honestly he sounds as if he is here playing in the room, so that is where I'm at :cool:
He is utterly superb, and as you point out Tommy, whomever is responsible for the engineering on these albums really knows their stuff. Spellbinding!!!
I suppose I am lucky that I am not constrained as to the volume at which I can listen. Take today, Friday afternoon....some tunes.....some beer.....more beer....you get the picture, the volume rises.
By the end of the session the volume was a fair bit more than I would normally use, even after a heavy session. However I was surprised at how it all held together...... and I didn't even have to pay them all after they left:lol:
a fair bit louder than you normally use!! having heard your system recently Rob I can only imagine how loud that was :D
Only a personal view, but I don't think there ever has been or ever will be a stereo system that comes even close to a live presentation. The sound of live music whether amplified or not is totally unique to an individual performance.
I have been lucky enough to hear and own some wonderful systems, but have ANY EVER made me think the person/group was in the room. No not even close. Even the aforementioned Nick Drake who made some wonderful albums which were superbly engineered and recorded. But in the room with me, nah not a snowball in hell's chance.
Even the aforementioned Nick Drake who made some wonderful albums which were superbly engineered and recorded. But in the room with me, nah not a snowball in hell's chance.
That's because he is here just now Ian, I will send him over to yours when I'm finished with him... :ner: :D
The very best ANY stereo can be, whether cheap or frighteningly expensive, is a very pale facsimile of the live recording session, since so much is done in the mixing and mastering to dilute the essence of the original event. Like I keep saying, suspension of disbelief is the goal, and you DON'T have to spend the earth to be able to do this...
Enjoy the gear you have, close your eyes and bathe in the music...
The Grand Wazoo
16-11-2012, 23:23
He is utterly superb, and as you point out Tommy, whomever is responsible for the engineering on these albums really knows their stuff. Spellbinding!!!
Mostly Joe Boyd producing with John Wood as engineer. They were a bit of a double act at the time. Wood did all of the albums, while Boyd did 'Five Leaves Left' and 'Bryter Layter', after which, he sold his production company to Island records & buggered off back to the US. For 'Pink Moon' John Wood ended up dong the production as well.
Thanks for the info Chris ;)
A crude facsimile - that's all it can ever be. But don't let that depress you. I've heard stuff on the tinniest of tranny radios that has moved me.
And don't be fooled by that "sounding just like it's (or they) are in the room with me" nonsense. If it sounds like that, it's wrong - do you you really want the Berlin Philharmonic in your living room? No, you want to be transported to the concert hall where the Berlin Philharmonic were playing: you want to hear the acoustic.
Each to their own Barry. Frankly I like it just the way it is and I ain't about to change it because it sounds so 'right' to me and that is the point... :scratch:
It is a shame some members feel the need to drag somebody down when they say they are happy with what they are hearing...
The Grand Wazoo
17-11-2012, 00:42
Yer welcome me owd mucker!
The Grand Wazoo
17-11-2012, 00:50
It very much depends what you like to listen to.
Some people wouldn't want to be in the same continent as the Berlin Philharmonic, never mind the same room. You can't faithfully recreate the sound of a full orchestra going at it properly, no matter what you use, or how much money you throw at the problem. The same goes for a rock band giving some whoomptie to the amps.
If you think your system can do that trick, then you are fooling yourself.
There's no reason why you can't enjoy yourself listening to a fair facsimile though.
The only time what you are listening too "sounds like it is in the same room as you", is if it has been recorded in something like the same room as the one you are listening in.
This really only happens if the performance is simple: a folk singer, sat on a stool, playing an acoustic guitar. And to do this you need point source speakers positioned at about the same level as the performer.
Does it really sound as if the orchestral backing players of Nick Drake sounds like they are in the same room as you?
For a lot of the music I listen to, there is no such thing as 'live' or even if it was played live, then the sound the artist would want would be direct from the electric instruments. Even if a guitar amp is close mic'd and not DI'd then there still is no live effect to talk of, no ambience of the venue etc. sometimes when you go to a gig, the live effect of the music interacting with venue actually removes some pleasing aspects of the record.
'Live' is a category of sound itself and I want my system to have a broader range of capabilities than that. I want my system to be able to portray accurately what the artists intended, what they at least signed off as the final product anyway (I realise that artist control all the way through the process is very rare, but I can imagine at least..).
Having said that, you probably mean 'real life' when you say 'live'. Real life is definitely what I strive and wish for and that includes soundstage, clarity, texture and full range. If it's harsh in real life, I prefere it to be harsh through my system too. If the sound recorded is lush and rich and warm then that should come through instead.
Transient capabilities are something I do associate with real life that can be often hidden by a system, the attack and the nature of that attack. Real drums or even real helicopter often lack something on when played back and they're prominent in the piece. Good transients give a sound that you think you could reach out and touch as if it was really there..
The only time what you are listening too "sounds like it is in the same room as you", is if it has been recorded in something like the same room as the one you are listening in.
This really only happens if the performance is simple: a folk singer, sat on a stool, playing an acoustic guitar. And to do this you need point source speakers positioned at about the same level as the performer.
Does it really sound as if the orchestral backing players of Nick Drake sounds like they are in the same room as you?
Because of this, I now live in a heavily damped studio that is mic'd up and the feed processed by some reverb box and out again through some monitors. The slight delay between doing anything like putting a cup down on the coffee table and getting a sound takes some getting used to but music definitely sounds like it could be being played right in my living room!
For sure but I think at a high level, we all want the same thing. Clarity, dynamics, the presence of a live performance, tonal balance, reality....
You know when you hear something that sounds right. Sometimes just listening to something in the background in a hifi shop causes your ears to prick up.
I guess at the end of the day, its all subjective
I think it can be easy for people with a certain and blinkered taste in music to end up always appreciating the same aspects of sound and so end up with a system that exaggerates or is only good at that aspect. For example, if someone only liked acoustic instrumentals with lush vocals then they won't be wanting a system that can deliver the real-life power of death metal or hard transients of some electronica.
The wider your taste in music - and not forgetting appreciation of great sounding non-music - the more you require the real-life presentation and the harder perhaps it is to obtain too.
Nat, you hit the nail on the head. Maybe I chose the wrong words earlier but I know what I am hearing. For example, there is a track on the Stones album, Let It Bleed called Country Honk. A few seconds into the track there are two short bursts of a car horn. Due to the abilities of my system this car horn sounds as if it is coming from a car out in the street below the window. It is so realistic it still fools both myself and my partner occasionally. Likewise if a recording contains ambient sounds, such as the second track on Stevie Wonders Secret life Of Plants album, where there is an ambient backing track of bird song and crows cawing within the soundstage, this too sounds so realistic that I sometimes forget it is recorded on the track and look out of the window to see where the crows are perched. This is what I am talking about.
On the Nick Drake recordings today, we felt like he was performing for us, there in front of the couch. It was intimate, just a guitar and small orchestra. the soundstage was vast and each instrument had it's place and was focused. We could sense the effort the musicians were putting into the performance. I make no apologies for this, it is what we were hearing and it was wonderful.
you probably mean 'real life' when you say 'live'.
Good transients give a sound that you think you could reach out and touch as if it was really there..
Yes, I think this is probably what I mean. I want the music to move me physically as well as emotionally:D
Yes, I think this is probably what I mean. I want the music to move me physically as well as emotionally:D
Personally I find I don't actually need a great sounding system to be moved - that is more about human cultural stuff and not the type of sound. For me it's mostly all in he notes and rythms and lyrics.
But yes, a better systme makes other things pop out though, 'moved' by individual, juicy sounds - a different enjoyment.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.