Cartridge Recomendation for SME 3009 Prototype

[gummy]

Well, I've only been here for a couple of days and already asking for advice. As I mentioned in my Intro, I have recently found a use for an old SME 3009 Prototype arm. Years ago when I lived in London I bought this sight unseen from the old 'Loot' publication, from someone who promised me a Series 2 12 inch unit. I thought it was interesting enough so I kept it. I will try to attach an image here...

(Sorry, I tried to link a photo from Picasa, but I just couldn't make the link... grrr)

As you can see, I have the Ortofon style headshell with it, and as this arm is heavier than the SME 3009 II (brass arm?) and the pivot is different I have read that I should be looking for a low compiance MC cartridge. Maybe one of the Denon 103 or 110 series.

My problem is that I can not find details of the arm geometry at Vinyl Museum so I can not use their 'automatic program' - they don't actually seem to list this exact model, and I know nothing of MC carts. I am playing through an Albarry PP1 pre, to Quad II's to ESL57's. I like the sound on the deep/throaty side as the room is bright. I would like a cost ceiling around $200.00.

The MM carts that I have (part list) Pickering XV15, Shure Me97HE, ADC10e, etc. I was thinking a nice Shibata on the Pickering or Stanton 680 would sound nice but I am not sure of the compliance issues. I also have an AT630 SUT kicking around somewhere if the PP1 is a problem.

It is a somewhat unusual arm - I wonder if anyone here might be able to offer some advice? Thanks.

[shane]

I would get in touch with SME. If it really is a prototype then no-one else is going to have any information, and they'd probably be very interested. If it is higher mass than the standard SME, it's going to be better suited to low compliance cartridges, including most moving coils, rather than high-compliance MM models like the Shures etc. Me? I'd stick a Denon in it, but there's plenty who wouldn't!

There are three forums I visit on a daily basis. Today, two of them have threads about SME arms that seem more than usually desireable. Something in the wind....

(If you're interested, here's the other one: http://www.world-designs.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=78386#post78386 )

Again, if it really is a prototype, it could be valuable.

[DSJR]

Hi and welcome...

This looks like a stock early spec SME 3009 to me (I had the 12" with optional bias corrector as yours has), so with any luck, it'll follow the standard geometry for these arms, with the most important inner null point at 60mm from memory. SME did change this to the now almost universal? 65 - 66mm (the outer one doesn't matter anywhere near as much as all the major vinyl distortion can occur at the inner grooves), but with the 9" arm, I'm not sure how important this is, let alone audible............

You have loads of good cartridges available for an arm like this and with a re-wire and fettling of the turntable itself, you'll be well able to hold your head up in exalted turntable-owner company; something I definitely can't :lol: :ner:

[hifi_dave]

As above.

Can't quite see any detail from the small pic but it does look like the Mk.1/early SME 3009. A bit massier and more robust than the 'Improved' versions.

Should cope with anything except ultra high compliance cartridges like the V15 or ADC.

[gummy]

Thank you Shane< I have never been to that forum.

When I use the word "prptotype" I do so as that is what I have read many people call the series 1. It is in fact the 9" (9.5") model of the one you see on that other forum. Not super rare but more so than the later series. I have read that its added mass makes it better on the Idler Type tables. I have both series 1 and 2(improved) SME's and at this time I am likely to agree with that assesment - but I take time to arrive at my judgements and have more disks to play before deciding, and I would like to use a cartridge that does the arm some justice. Lucky I have the old headshell with it.

I do have all the documentation for the arm, and the setting out jig - which is different (longer) to the series 2 jig. Will you please let the fellow know on the other forum (where I am not a member) that I would be happy to scan the material for him and send him a digital file, I should send it to the Vinyl Museum site at the same time and get it properly recorded.

Edit, thanks Dave and David too, yours came in as I typed. - Any direction on posting pics othe than thumbnails?

[gummy]

Shane,

Let him know that I just uploaded the full package of stuff to Vinyl Engine database (all 600dpi, so he can print a fair copy). If he is in a rush, I can dropbox it.

[Barry]

It's a Mk. I 3009 arm fitted with the (then optional) bias corrector. The Mk. I had a thicker bedplate to the Mk. II and the bedplate locking nuts were taller. The arm tube was made of stainless steel, later replaced by aluminium in the Mk. II designs.

The 4-way connector fitted at the arm base was of a different design to the later 4-way Belling & Lee 'Unitor' design, and you should find the contact arrangement of the bayonet socket of the arm tube can be rotated through 45 degree (the adjustment screw slot is longer than on later models). This latter facility was to allow the use of cartridges using the Neumann contact arrangement.

The tip of the lift/lower dashpot control lever was spherical rather than ellipsoid used on the Mk. II models.

The geometry corresponds to that of Stevenson; with null points at 60.325mm and 117mm, thought the latter was not mentioned.

The headshell is a very early Bakelite design looking remarkably similar to the Ortofon 'whale' design. This is a little unusual as the headshell supplied with the Mk. I models was similar to the later S2 design, but without the weight relieving holes. These Bakelite shells alone fetch ~ £100 on eBay.

Your sample looks to be in very good condition and will worth quite a lot. (I wouldn't be surprised to see such a sample go for £750 on eBay)

[gummy]

Thanks!, but sadly I don't think of selling it, only getting a decent cartridge for it! And these MC's seem more complicated and expensive a proposition than I am happy to make a mistake with by guessing on one or another. With all this complience this, and resonance that, and SUT vs Head Amps... If no one uses this arm maybe I should stay with a more common varient and leave this for someone with 'the knowledge' and a bunch of MC's on the shelf to tinker with.

Until then, thanks for any input...

[Barry]

Any of the cartridges you mention ought to be OK with your SME. The only possible exception might be the ADC 10E.

[Rare Bird]

As you can see, I have the Ortofon style headshell with it, and as this arm is heavier than the SME 3009 II (brass arm?) and the pivot is different I have read that I should be looking for a low compiance MC cartridge. Maybe one of the Denon 103 or 110 series.



Na it's not a proto it's a Mk.I the armtubes are Stainless.

Mounting distance is 213.46 mm anymore details you want just PM.

You'll have to rotate the headshell fitting to take a standard SME shell if you want to..

PS: You should be fine with the Stanton but which version is it out of intrest?

[nat8808]

AS others have said, it's certainly not a prototype. It's the standard, original version of the 3009 that was made before the Series 2 (funnily enough!). Can go for good money as has been said, easily enough to then buy a nice Series 2 3012 as a replacement.

The Mk1 3009s go for about £650 normally (there are always exceptions) although I added up the parts of one a dealer was selling and they added up to £850 seperately - I guess many people desperate to repair their own!

A standard choice for the day was an Ortofon SPU and often housed in those headshells.

[Rare Bird]

Here's the arrangement for SME or SPU/EMT

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w425/ELPFAN1968/SMEFitting.jpg

[gummy]

Thanks for the comments! Really, I know it is not a 'prototype' in the normal sense of the word, as I first said in post#5. I have seen people refer to the series 1 as 'The Prototype', not the prototype ;). I have no idea why, or where it came from, but it seems to appear often enough. If by repeating it, I am perpetuating a mis-nomer then I am due for a paddling. Sorry for that. :(

Soooo, I am under no illusion that I have a factory floor working model, maquette, or prototype. And I don't want to sell it or (horrors :eek:) break it up for profit! I just have read that the MK1 may play better with a less complient cartridge than the MK2i possibly an MC, both of which I have no experience with, and as there is little detailed information on the arm for me to plug into the Vinyl Engines' calulator, I was just asking here. I need the effective mass, efective length (same as 'mounting distance?), pivot to spindle (what is the spindle), overhang...

I sure can't afford an Ortofon SPU!, but maybe a Denon 103. I have a Pickering XV-15 625E, Stanton 680EL, Shure Me95ED, Me97HE, V15rs, some AT's some Goldrings, a mixed bag of basic stuff really. I am thinking if the Stanton is a match I will order a Shibata for it.

The headshell socket is standard SME. Not rotated 45 deg. I had read the arm was chrome plated brass??? Stainless???:scratch:

[Rare Bird]

It's Stainless. Im not sure of that arms effective mass, The 3009R has a stainless armtube, that arm is around 12g if that's something to work with.. If i were you i'd pick up an Headshell of your choice preferably one of the SME to keep it looking nice then you got the headshell mass..

Effective Length: 228.6 mm
Pivot To Spindle (Bedplate Centre - to Turntable platter centre): 213.46 mm

Edit: The '680EL' is a low compliant cartridge around the same as the 'DL103'

[gummy]

Thank you Andre, that will be very useful. I am in your debt.

Stainless... I would never have thought... Stainless is a bugger to work with, has (I thought) high resonance, I wonder why they used that rather than, say aluminium. I read that that aluminium is what was asked for on 'day 1' of the SME (arm). I wonder how that moved to stainless when they were making train model parts?

BTW I see you have a Ferrograph. For some reason, I have a model 4 here somewhere. Comes in a carry case, why? no clue. it must be 75lbs.