E88CC recommendations?

[Simon]

What ho chaps,

I'd be grateful for some advice on replacing a pair of 6922/E88CC in an Audion Sterling phono amp.
Budget is paramount - so far I've gleaned that a decently priced Tungsram E88CC might do the trick. The Russian 6N23P has also come up but I fail to grasp whether this last should be the -EV version or not or indeed if it's a genuine alternative at all.

Hope somebody has the time and inclination to toss me a word of wisdom.

Thanks. :scratch:

[julesd68]

Hi Simon,

I can recommend the JJ E88CC Gold Pin which I replaced the stock valve with in my Puresound P10 phono - cost me £23 and gave me an immediate improvement ...

[Simon]

Hi Simon,

I can recommend the JJ E88CC Gold Pin which I replaced the stock valve with in my Puresound P10 phono - cost me £23 and gave me an immediate improvement ...

Thank you for the suggestion Jules. Much appreciated. But are they the best bang-for-buck?
A quick glance into the satanic orb that is the Google search engine has immediately thrown up a link which has triggered the familiar doubt that is common to all planetary victims of the current branding babel. Apparently JJ is not Tesla, despite being manufactured with the old Tesla toolery, and the tubes are composed of inferior materials so not as worthwhile.

Enough to make one convert to the anti-tube sentiments of the fans of solid state. :rolleyes:

[julesd68]

Well you could go for a NOS Mullard E88CC-01 but that will cost you around £70.

I can only go by what my ears tell me - for £23 the JJ is a very good valve indeed.

[Simon]

Well you could go for a NOS Mullard E88CC-01 but that will cost you around £70.

I can only go by what my ears tell me - for £23 the JJ is a very good valve indeed.

I'm self-evidently not really up to speed on the current valve heirarchy regarding manufacturers and type equivalents. Also because availability seems to fluctuate quite a bit especially with all these new sellers online from Russia, Bulgaria and the like.
Was the £23 for 1 or 2 pieces? Matched or unmatched? Again, I have no idea whether matching is an issue here. ( Could anybody respond to that one for me? ). Anyway, I'll certainly add them to my list of maybe's.
Thanks again.

[Simon]

Just to add a little input of my own, a distinctly less criminally-priced alternative may be this one as described by the Watford valves website:

"The HARMA 6N1P-EB is a special long life version of the 6N1P which is very popular with high end audio users over recent years. Very robust and was selected for military use these are the best of the 6N1P. This valve has a better audio performance than standard 6N1-P as it has very low distortion and has a higher plate dissipation rating than an ECC88 type.

Some audio customers have used these in place of E88CC/6922 & ECC88/6DJ8 Types as the 6N1P-EB. This is due to better sonic performance due to the valves low distortion. It is similar to the above valves but the main difference is that the filament current is 0.55 A of the 6N1P-EB compared with 0.36 A of the ECC88/6922 type.
So if you are doing this substitution of 6N1P in place of ECC88/6922 type I would consult the manufacturer of you equipment. The 6N1P-EB is fully equivalent to the Chinese made 6N1 valve and offers better peformance.

Features include very low distortion, medium transconductance, higher plate-voltage and dissipation rating than 6DJ8 types, and larger cathode than 6DJ8 types. This gives it longer life and more transient current capability."

Anyone hazard a guess as to its suitability in an Audion phono stage?

[oceanobsession]

Hi simon,

My recomendation for sound quality and low noise would be cv2492 brimar
you can pick these up seconhand and nos for £10 each with gold pins

See english ebay 310502136558

Also these are very good english ebay 330828799656

Most nos valves have a maximum plate voltage of around 120v where there
russion counterparts will take 250v, find out what your phono is putting out
before fitting nos valves or they wont last.

[Simon]

Hi simon,

My recomendation for sound quality and low noise would be cv2492 brimar
you can pick these up seconhand and nos for £10 each with gold pins

See english ebay 310502136558

Also these are very good english ebay 330828799656

Most nos valves have a maximum plate voltage of around 120v where there
russion counterparts will take 250v, find out what your phono is putting out
before fitting nos valves or they wont last.

Worrying comment about the plate voltage - a factor I've never been sufficiently genned up on to give it any thought. But it makes sense - I went through a pair of Russkie 6n23p's very quickly last year. Durability most certainly seems to be a bugbear of valve phono stages. Looks like I'm dutybound to look into NOS then.
Thanks very much indeed, Phil.

[Yomanze]

I have a matched pair of these if interested as a supposedly superior equivalent (haven't used them) (NOS 6H23n-EB):

http://thetubestore.com/rus696h.html

£20 incl. P&P if you want them as I'll never get round to using them!

[Simon]

Thanks Neil,

Re. p&p, bear in mind that I live in Italy tho' it shouldn't make a huge difference.

Could you hold on for a few days? It would be wise to check to be sure there are no incompatibilities with the Audion. I'll pm you after the weekend if that's OK.
I think I'll probably take the opportunity here to try both a pair of russian valves and a couple suggested by Phil if economics allow - presumably there is more than hype to NOS glassware...:hmm:

[Batty]

Well you could go for a NOS Mullard E88CC-01 but that will cost you around £70.

I can only go by what my ears tell me - for £23 the JJ is a very good valve indeed.

I use a pair of these in my Copland CSA-14, loverly an smooove

[Yomanze]

Thanks Neil,

Re. p&p, bear in mind that I live in Italy tho' it shouldn't make a huge difference.

Could you hold on for a few days? It would be wise to check to be sure there are no incompatibilities with the Audion. I'll pm you after the weekend if that's OK.
I think I'll probably take the opportunity here to try both a pair of russian valves and a couple suggested by Phil if economics allow - presumably there is more than hype to NOS glassware...:hmm:

No problem they're not going anywhere.

[Simon]

I use a pair of these in my Copland CSA-14, loverly an smooove

A second ringing endorsement bodes well then.

There's such a lot of disinformation out there regarding tubes, it can turn the head of the unwary. For the record, I consulted Joe's Tube Lore
which is where the slur re. JJ's not matching up to Tesla standards originated. The tube jungle can be a daunting place for the inexperienced I have to say.

So... we have on our list of options an ECC88/62JD/6N1p (and -EV) morphing into E88CC/CV2492/6922, E188CC/7308, ECC88CCa, not to mention the 6N23p (and -EV)

I realise you have to occasionally kiss a few frogs before finding your ideal partner but swimming with the toads can be a time-consuming business. I suppose the moral of the story is not to succumb to the irresistable itch to grab at the nobbly allsorts being routinely proffered on eBay and to, well, listen to unbiased advice.

Thanks chaps.

[Simon]

62JD



What I meant of course was 6DJ8. :mental:

[Slawts]

I don't know about the valve you want but I'm using JJ ecc82's in my pre. I swapped them for some old yellow label Mullards but swapped them back as the Mullards were noisier.

They're a good quality valve.

Steve

[OneyedK]

Any chance that we could examine the schematic of the Audion Sterling?
This might help narrowing down selections.
Most of the time I use russian 6N1P instead of 6DJ8 and E88CC.
Avirtual trip to the Tube Amp Doctor.de might solve your problems...

[Simon]

Any chance that we could examine the schematic of the Audion Sterling?
This might help narrowing down selections.
Most of the time I use russian 6N1P instead of 6DJ8 and E88CC.
Avirtual trip to the Tube Amp Doctor.de might solve your problems...

Short answer to that Karl is no, unfortunately I have no plans to open up the Sterling. But, bearing in mind that 6N1P's can be had so cheaply, I may well have a go - presumably no damage to the amp will occur due to the slight variation in plate voltage? Would you happen to know the answer to that? How do you find the sound of them?

[OneyedK]

presumably no damage to the amp will occur due to the slight variation in plate voltage? Would you happen to know the answer to that? How do you find the sound of them?
The higher allowed plate voltage is a big plus, if the circuit is less than ideal, you won't damage the tube or anything else.
I've compared them to RCA 6DJ8 cleartop en Telefunken and Siemens NOS E88CC, not much difference to my ears (at least not in the used circuit, grounded cathode followed by split load phase splitter driving a couple of EL84's).
The 6DJ8 sounded sweetest, Siemens a little "harder", Telefunken was very neutral and musical. I'd say the 6N1P-EV I used sounded like the Telefunkens.
When driven harder, the 6N1P-EV seems to distort less.

But it all boils down to the circuit they are used in.
Oh, and one tip, if you buy from our russian friend, take 10 tubes or so, very often, 8 tubes are perfect, 2 are out of spec.
If you want tubes "on spec", the tube amp doctor is the place to be...

[Simon]

The higher allowed plate voltage is a big plus, if the circuit is less than ideal, you won't damage the tube or anything else.
I've compared them to RCA 6DJ8 cleartop en Telefunken and Siemens NOS E88CC, not much difference to my ears (at least not in the used circuit, grounded cathode followed by split load phase splitter driving a couple of EL84's).
The 6DJ8 sounded sweetest, Siemens a little "harder", Telefunken was very neutral and musical. I'd say the 6N1P-EV I used sounded like the Telefunkens.
When driven harder, the 6N1P-EV seems to distort less.

But it all boils down to the circuit they are used in.
Oh, and one tip, if you buy from our russian friend, take 10 tubes or so, very often, 8 tubes are perfect, 2 are out of spec.
If you want tubes "on spec", the tube amp doctor is the place to be...

Well in the past I've had some success with Russian valves - courtesy of info via the Lampizator website - including x2 6N6P's as drivers in a 300B integrated as well as using one as a replacement for a 6H30 in a tube buffered player where the relative laidbackness of the variant works wonderfully well in tandem with a frisky Bantam Gold amp. Also, I have tried a pair of 6N23P's in the Sterling which were a huge improvement over the JAN Philips 6922 it came with but which broke up over a relatively short time, matter of months.
I've never tried the 6N23P-EV but I probably will.
Anyway, interesting about the 6N1P-EV, I think I'll give those a shot as well. Thoroughly agree about the need to exercise particular caution when eBaying these Russian tubes which I suppose is the trade-off for their affordability. So off to the tube amp doctor for a wee butcher's...:eyebrows:

[OneyedK]

I've never tried the 6N23P-EV but I probably will.
Have a look here:
6n23p (http://klausmobile.narod.ru/testerfiles/6n23p.htm)
It seems the measured 6N23P is not an exact substitute for ECC88.

In circuits designed with GlassWare TubeCAD for the ECC88, an actual 6N1P measures the same...

[Simon]

Have a look here:
6n23p (http://klausmobile.narod.ru/testerfiles/6n23p.htm)
It seems the measured 6N23P is not an exact substitute for ECC88.

In circuits designed with GlassWare TubeCAD for the ECC88, an actual 6N1P measures the same...

Doesn't surprise me - I think I'll keep my fingers crossed and get a couple of 6N1P -VI's and have a play around. I don't expect that the Audion's transformer will have too difficult a time of it - isn't hi-fi all about over-speccing circuits? :D

[goraman]

Asking for tube recomandations is like asking what new car to buy as it's really a matter of how it sounds in your total system and of course personal taste.
I had the Audion Silver Night phono (a fist run)they used the pre amp Silver Night chassis back then.
The 6922's I liked best are these (hands down) that includes NOS tubes like Mullard,Phillips,RCA and Tungsram ect...
It is the only tube I would use in your phono stage, because they are not monophonic, they have no back ground noise and the presentation is stunning.
They are new and sold in closely matched sets,and you won't be disappointed.

http://thetubestore.com/goldlione88cc.html

[OneyedK]

because they are not monophonic
What is "monophonic"?

[AndrewL]

At the risking starting an "oh yes it is, no it isn't debate" please bear in mind the 61NP is not the same as the ECC88, you can often use them interchange-ably but they are not the same. I believe the 6N23P is closer but I don't have any experience with them.

I only say this so that anyone rolling tubes is aware of the differences and the possibility of, however remote, of damage. Please study the data sheets for yourselves and make up your own minds that the best advice I can give.

Andrew

[goraman]

What is "monophonic"?

Some tubes are prone to making noise at the slightest vibration from even a little bass. Some can be so bad just touching the volume knob can be heard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphonics

[OneyedK]

Ah, ok, microphonic, that I know... Too well...