View Full Version : What's the purpose of a stand alone CDP these days?
StanleyB
13-11-2012, 11:03
I have not used my stand alone CDP for several months now. If I want to play a CD I tend to use the CD tray in my laptop. I have tried to justify the errors of my way by imagining that a CDP would have numerous advantages over the inbuilt CDP in my laptop, but so far I have actually come to the technical conclusion that the laptop CDP is a better performer :eek:.
Are there other people out there with similar or opposing views to mine?
You need to use a better CDP then, Stan (read as ones from the days when properly engineered CD-only, diecast metal transport mechs were used, not cheapo, plastic DVD-ROM shite, and where massive, linear PSUs were employed in designs, instead of SMPS bollocks) ;)
Do so, and the in-built CDP on your laptop will sound like the pish that it is (in comparison)!
Marco.
I've compared CD's playing in both my desktop DVD Rom drive and my Arcam CDP and the Arcam sounds miles better...
There must definitely be "something in the engineering" - for example my Wadia 170i iPod dock with audiocom signature upgrade sounded every bit as good as my (previous) cyrus CD Xt se - but after the cyrus was "upgraded" (new unit actually) to SE2 spec SQ is "better" than the Wadia.
Steve
isuckedmandelsonslemons
13-11-2012, 11:52
Good to know that my £1,500 CD transport was money well spent.
Actually, it sounds so much better than any of the four CD drives in computers we have in the house that I wouldn't have thought it was an issue. I also have an old Philips CD player and that sounds miles better. Laptops are two Dells and two Macs.
purite audio
13-11-2012, 12:32
I wouldn't use the PC to play the CD, use the PC to rip the Cd into a lossless codec.
Keith.
My Ayre SACD player sounds miles better than any other means of CD or file replay I have at my disposal.
purite audio
13-11-2012, 12:36
Does the Ayre have a digital 'in' perhaps you could use it as just as a dac?
Keith.
Unfortunately not, it only has digital out.
realysm42
13-11-2012, 13:03
I've wondered this, why bother with CDs atall if you can rip them and use something without any moving parts; I guess it's a toss up between the components each method employs...
kenworthy100
13-11-2012, 13:12
I use an M-dac with my laptop cd drive, in isolation it is acceptable, however, when I spin the same disc in my Marantz sa11 the sound is far more life like, timing , tempo and bass lines just sound like music.
I've wondered this, why bother with CDs atall if you can rip them and use something without any moving parts; I guess it's a toss up between the components each method employs...
The last part is spot on, although I would add 'sonic compromises caused by the', after "between the" (above), so that it reads:
"I guess it's a toss up between the sonic compromises caused by the components each method employs".
I'm not convinced yet that high-end audio music streaming has been perfected beyond a certain acceptable level (as I feel that the 'operating environment' inside computers is still too noisy, and thus sub-optimal, in order to effectively preserve the integrity of the audio signal); indeed it's what my ears tell me every time I compare a top-notch streamer with a top-notch CDP - the latter, musically, always spanks the former's pants!
Results, however, will vary depending on what your benchmark is for both. It's like anything else in life: whether something is considered as 'good', or not, depends on the standards you're used to :)
One also has to remember that everything in audio is a compromise, so all we can ever do is choose our compromises - and so it is with computer streaming vs. (quality) CDPs. Neither will ever be 'the best'.
Marco.
I've wondered this, why bother with CDs atall if you can rip them and use something without any moving parts; I guess it's a toss up between the components each method employs...
See this thread : http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16799&highlight=audiocom+signature
Steve
I don't like to have computers switched on when I am listening to music.
Quite right, as their noisy SMPS units pollute the mains supply, shared by the rest of the system!
Marco.
:eyebrows:
I've wondered this, why bother with CDs atall if you can rip them and use something without any moving parts; I guess it's a toss up between the components each method employs...
Its a toss up between a lot of things Martin, I still buy CD's but don't ever play them in a CDP, but I don't really class my transport as a 'computer' and it doesn't have an optical drive or any moving parts. I will always buy CD's as long as they remain affordable and available, but they will never get played in the traditional manner any more.
What is a computer anyway - many peoples homes are full of devices than could be classed as computers, but don't have a keyboard or screen?
However, even though I'm a fan of file based audio I'm not sure I would ever choose a laptop playing CD's in a flimsy plastic tray against something like an early Sony battleship or a player like Martin's. In fact I took some convincing before I took the route I did and in the end it was down to finance as I could get more for sound per pound doing what I did ;)
Next stop is a TT
pioneer PD-91
using one , streets ahead of any laptop :lol:
hoopsontoast
13-11-2012, 14:38
I don't like to have computers switched on when I am listening to music.
Yup same, I work with PC's all day. When I get home, dont want one involved in the relaxation time ;)
Put CD into CDP tray, press play and enjoy :)
That and my Laptop does not have a CD drive ;)
purite audio
13-11-2012, 15:14
Yup I just switch on my Weiss MAN301, select an album from the Ipad touch the screen again, and wonderful music eminates forth, ( unless I have accidentally chosen Celine Dion of course)
Keith.
Put CD into CDP tray, press play and enjoy :)
Actually, mines even easier than that - just tap an album cover on a pad like this;
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/tablet-gizmo.png
which sits on the sofa as a remote control.
A file based audio system does not have to bear any resemblance to a computer whatsoever, mine is just a small black box with an On/Off button ;)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/rega1-1.jpg
Hard to think of anything simpler TBH and when is sounds superior to the CDP it replaced and cost less, then for me its a no brainer.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
13-11-2012, 16:15
Tim, can I ask what the CD player was?
Richard Kimber
13-11-2012, 16:39
(snip)
I'm not convinced yet that high-end audio music streaming has been perfected beyond a certain acceptable level (as I feel that the 'operating environment' inside computers is still too noisy, and thus sub-optimal, in order to effectively preserve the integrity of the audio signal); indeed it's what my ears tell me every time I compare a top-notch streamer with a top-notch CDP - the latter, musically, always spanks the former's pants!
(snip)
Marco.
Surely if a music file is being streamed the dlna server is just delivering the file, which then gets processed by the client. It's not an audio signal as such, surely. How does the noise in the PC affect streaming?
- Richard.
When we get to the AOS show in the future I think it be great to put this to the test. So we have either Tim or my computer based transport now we just need a decent CD Transport and agree on the DAC. Anyone up for the challenge. Marco how about you bringing your CD Transport
Surely if a music file is being streamed the dlna server is just delivering the file, which then gets processed by the client. It's not an audio signal as such, surely. How does the noise in the PC affect streaming?
- Richard.
Hi Richard, that's an interesting point and a very good question and one which has been discussed at length previously. As much as I hate to agree with Marco on matters relating to computer audio, he is 100% correct :eyebrows: The environment inside a working computer has a significant impact on the quality of the sound it streams. I have built 3 dedicated servers now and tested netbooks, desktop PC's and high-end laptops as audio streamers, as well as various DAC's, operating systems and media software. A typical computer will be doing all manner of things as well as playing your music, fans, hard disk drives, power supplies (especially power supplies), screens, device drivers and windows processes all impact sound quality. Of course if you only play mp3 files and don't have a good DAC I doubt you will notice, but when you get serious about it, you quickly find there is a lot to deal with to get the best out of a file based audio system. There are work arounds such as programs like JPlay, but couple that with a good server and the results can be nothing short of startling when you consider the financial outlay.
There is some very good reading to be had here: http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/
Tim, can I ask what the CD player was?
Sure Harry, my last ever CDP was a Musical Fidelity A3, not high-end at all, but what showed it a clean pair of heels was a standard netbook, foobar2000 and a Caiman DAC. But that's not the whole story by any means. I was the biggest sceptic of them all when it came to music from a computer, but I have an enquiring mind and don't tend to believe what I read or am told, I'm only happy until I try it myself.
I was at the point of an upgrade and had a budget of around 4-5k for just a CDP and amplifier. I started looking at Cyrus as I'm an 80's Mission/Cyrus fanboy, but tried all manner of equipment against the netbook and was mightily impressed at the gear it was seeing off, which cost a good portion of my budget. Of course there are plenty of CDP's that will outperform what I now have, but the cost is significant in comparison. When I weighed up the sound I could get added to its convenience, I was sold on the idea. However, for me it was not just the superior sound quality - I am in my mid fifties and have a collection of around 3,000 albums, so it was becoming a pain to manage them during a listening session. If you only play a couple a CD's a night, no problem, but I have music on all the time at home. So finding, sorting, storing and putting stuff away became annoying especially with 54 year old eyes in dim lighting!
I have now changed my entire system including the speakers, come in under budget, sold my old system for more than I paid for it and now have a sound I only used to dream about. And finally, even if you gave me the choice of any CDP at any budget I still wouldn't have one, its just not an option I would choose anymore, as I love what I have . . . its the future for me. I still buy CD's as I don't like downloads, but that's as far as it goes, I just buy them, rip them to FLAC, scan the artwork (a work in progress) and then archive the disc. Everything is then accessed from the sofa via my Android tablet.
I will eventually end up with a file based system and a vinyl playback system, so the best of both worlds in my mind - CD's have had their day in my house as a playback format :)
Hi Richard,
Surely if a music file is being streamed the dlna server is just delivering the file, which then gets processed by the client. It's not an audio signal as such, surely. How does the noise in the PC affect streaming?
That's one for someone more technical than I to answer properly. However, it's largely to do with the sonically detrimental effect of switch-mode PSUs, used in all computers and/or much computer audio replay equipment, but there are also other factors, too.
Regardless, it's an effect I can easily hear with 95% of the streaming equipment I've listened to (bar those that use linear PSUs), which manifests itself as 'grainy thinness' and an artificial 'processed' quality, superimposed onto the music, absent when the same music is played on CD, through a high-quality CDP :)
{Edit: I see that Tim's covered the subject much better than me} Cheers, Tim!
Marco.
When we get to the AOS show in the future I think it be great to put this to the test. So we have either Tim or my computer based transport now we just need a decent CD Transport and agree on the DAC. Anyone up for the challenge. Marco how about you bringing your CD Transport
Sure, John, we can do that - would be interesting :)
Marco.
I have now changed my entire system including the speakers, come in under budget, sold my old system for more than I paid for it and now have a sound I only used to dream about. And finally, even if you gave me the choice of any CDP at any budget I still wouldn't have one, its just not an option I would choose anymore, as I love what I have . . . its the future for me. I still buy CD's as I don't like downloads, but that's as far as it goes, I just buy them, rip them to FLAC, scan the artwork (a work in progress) and then archive the disc. Everything is then accessed from the sofa via my Android tablet.
I will eventually end up with a file based system and a vinyl playback system, so the best of both worlds in my mind - CD's have had their day in my house as a playback format :)
I'm with you Tim. Agree with the above (although I like downloads) and all the rest you so eloquently put.
I built up my ever increasing file based system all arse about face, but wouldn't dream of going back. Collected Flac files first (although still got thousands of Apple ones, but thats a whole different subject)- then a DAC...then a streamer.
The biggest surprise is the difference Stan's Bushmaster with MCRU's linear PSU has made to a Linn DS. All the flac files are on twin NAS put upstairs. Doesn't even compare to playing files direct from the PC or laptop ..which I can do, but its pointless.
I retain a CD transport..just rarely gets used..its fairly decent as well (Kenwood DP X9010), but its just not as good as streaming flac files..or even WAV files now through another bit of software..
Not only all that, but my iphone will play all my files round the house through plug player..very cool when you hoovering.
So..the CD's are gradually getting ripped and put in a box in the basement to be sold when I get round to it. :)
I have not used my stand alone CDP for several months now. If I want to play a CD I tend to use the CD tray in my laptop. I have tried to justify the errors of my way by imagining that a CDP would have numerous advantages over the inbuilt CDP in my laptop, but so far I have actually come to the technical conclusion that the laptop CDP is a better performer :eek:.
Are there other people out there with similar or opposing views to mine?
My quick reaction to this without getting any further into the thread is this:
You're right! Why would you restrict a stand alone CD player to only playing CDs in this day and age?
My 1993 Apple PowerCD CD player uses a CDM9 mech and outputs SCSI. Why limit its uses?
--
Aside from that, a stand alone, dedicated piece of kit ALWAYS has advantages over something multi-purpose and generic (unless you end up using the multi-purpose device for single use, which would beg the question as to why a single-use device wouldn't be much cheaper in its place).
IMO the major advantages are in the interaction with it, a piece of equipment that is dedicated to the playing of CDs with hopefully all the controls all there perfectly ergonomically arranged and well thought out.
Another large advantage should be a longer life compared to the cheap laptop drive which is likely discarded with the PC anyway in a few years time.
As I see it, professional equipment in most fields hones in on the specific task at hand whilst consumer gear goes for the jack of all trades kind of vibe.
Personally I love expensive, dedicated pro gear, built to last a life time! Just another netbook sitting on a shelf just doesn't do it for me.
P.S. - I notice you say "technical conclusion" - you mean that it should be better when looking at the specs?
mind , another good reason , 900 odd cds i can't be a#sed to rip
mind , another good reason , 900 odd cds i can't be a#sed to rip
Yup that's another valid reason, its not much fun ripping a large collection if you don't want or need to.
Richard Kimber
13-11-2012, 23:43
Hi Richard,
That's one for someone more technical than I to answer properly. However, it's largely to do with the sonically detrimental effect of switch-mode PSUs, used in all computers and/or much computer audio replay equipment, but there are also other factors, too.
Regardless, it's an effect I can easily hear with 95% of the streaming equipment I've listened to (bar those that use linear PSUs), which manifests itself as 'grainy thinness' and an artificial 'processed' quality, superimposed onto the music, absent when the same music is played on CD, through a high-quality CDP :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I really don't see how the PSU can create an effect that alters the content of the file that the dlna server serves. It's not processing it as audio player software would do. Indeed, it's presumably possible to test that the file is bit perfect at the client. Of course, once the file has been delivered to the client by the ethernet cable and, is no longer on the pc, all bets are off.
- Richard.
It's the end result I'm referring to (what comes out of the speakers, when listening to a streaming system, vs. a high-end CDP) not the software processes involved, with computer audio, in producing that end result.
The 'noise environment' inside a working computer is most certainly not conducive to facilitating high-end audio performance, without carrying out some significant modification work.
See Tim's post earlier. He's been there, done that and bought the t-shirt! :)
Marco.
I'm not entirely clear what angle you are approaching this scenario Richard :scratch: If I have got the wrong end of the stick then just ignore me and the below ;)
What myself and I believe Marco are referring to is the transport, i.e. an audio streamer/server (as opposed to a CDP) serving a DAC > amplifier > loudspeakers. Powering the audio server with clean power from a linear PSU as opposed to a cheap SMPS makes a clearly audible difference to the sound quality - I'm not talking about swapping cables here either, I am talking 'oh yeah, I see what you mean now' audible differences. You are not 'altering the content of the file' but the electrical noise generated within the transport serving the data has an impact on how that data sounds at its destination. Its no different to powering any other audio component. Vincent Kars car explain better than most and if that's your thing, he has demonstrated it here previously with test reports and graphs. If you spend sometime reading his website which I linked to earlier, I'm sure a lot if not all your questions will be answered there . . . and if that's your bag, technically too.
I am not a technical objectivist but someone who likes to build, trial and test and ultimately trust what my ears tell me - they are what give me pleasure and are the final arbitrators. Here's one for you, the second server I built had a single mechanical 2TB HDD inside with the operating system and FLAC files written to it. Just digital data and at base level nothing more than bits and bytes on a hard drive. What difference would it make if you moved that hard drive outside the server and replaced it with an SSD drive for just the operating system and fed the server either from an external USB drive or via Ethernet and a NAS - bit perfect data in both cases, can't sound any different can it? Well I can tell you it does and I'm sure everyone who has tried it will agree, in fact I have yet to find anyone who disagrees. I'm sure there are many technical reasons to explain this and some may even be measurable, but try it yourself and see?
The differences above are not night and day, but they are audible and they do reduce the noise floor so you get a 'cleaner' and more pleasing sound. Swapping out an SMPS for a quality Linear PSU makes an even greater improvement than swapping hard drives around. Reducing 'noise' within the server is the objective of providing high-end audio performance from what novices like to call a computer, but when you get to this level I argue it has ceased to be what people would commonly call a computer, its a bespoke audio transport.
For optimum audible playback of digital data, be it from a NAS or other source, the server IMO will ideally be without any moving parts, controlled remotely, headless and the operating system with be stripped back to a bare minimum so all it is doing is pushing out a bit perfect digital stream to a DAC and nothing else. It will have no peripheral devices attached to it and be fed clean constant power from a high quality PSU. Powering an electrical circuit is a complex issue and ideally there should be no fluctuations and it needs to be quiet enough not to compromise the audio chain and effect performance. Cheap SMPS are notorious for introducing noise into the audio chain if not fully suppressed because of their switching current operation, which pretty much describes most domestic SMPS. But at the end of the day the acid test is to try it as I'm not sure anything I or Marco say here will convince you, if you hold an opposing view?
When you get file based audio right you will be competing with high-end CD transports and will in all likelihood have spent a fraction of the cost of that CDP for an equivalent or superior sound. But if you just plug a laptop into a DAC or amplifier you are going to be disappointed and wonder what all the fuss is about and have your opinions confirmed that its all hogwash. But the two are very different animals and sound very different.
As a totally unconnected aside Richard, I lived in Cardigan for two years in the early 80's, nice part of the world :)
I have to agree with Tim controlling the electrical noise and other dats processing is the key to getting the best out of Computer audio. For me its the value this approach has that makes it worth while
I now find it hard streaming spotify compaired to listening from memory as I can control the electrical interference more and it makes such a difference to the sound
Somehow the electrical interference is effecting the sound I cannot explain the techincal reasons but paying attention to this makes a huge difference
Richard if ever you visit London come round and have a listen to hear for yourself
Stratmangler
14-11-2012, 07:54
With reference to the title of the thread, would landfill be an appropriate answer? :eyebrows:
jandl100
14-11-2012, 08:15
With reference to the title of the thread, would landfill be an appropriate answer? :eyebrows:
NOOOOOOO !! :nono:
I'm with the many folk here who have yet to hear a streaming system that gets close to a decent CD transport. And I've heard quite a few.
Although allegedly it can be done, at a cost, and being very fussy about setup and music downloading.
Is it worth it? :scratch: ---- Nah! :eyebrows:
It's CDP for me for the foreseeable future, the streamers I have heard have not come close. :)
Stratmangler
14-11-2012, 08:42
NOOOOOOO !! :nono:
I'm with the many folk here who have yet to hear a streaming system that gets close to a decent CD transport. And I've heard quite a few.
Although allegedly it can be done, at a cost, and being very fussy about setup and music downloading.
Is it worth it? :scratch: ---- Nah! :eyebrows:
It's CDP for me for the foreseeable future, the streamers I have heard have not come close. :)
I wasn't really that interested in getting an answer, because I knew that one of the naysayers (and there are many here) would respond similarly to this.
Stop the Ravelling Nancy, anyone?
jandl100
14-11-2012, 08:47
I wasn't really that interested in getting an answer, because I knew that one of the naysayers (and there are many here) would respond similarly to this.
Stop the Ravelling Nancy, anyone?
Ah well, opinions will differ, as ever. :)
But what does "Stop the Ravelling Nancy" mean? :scratch:
EDIT - ah right - thanks to Google I see that it means I am a Luddite resisting inevitable progress and change ... :ner:
Stratmangler
14-11-2012, 08:50
Ah well, opinions will differ, as ever. :)
But what does "Stop the Ravelling Nancy" mean? :scratch:
It's an oblique reference to the Luddite uprising during the Industrial Revolution :eyebrows:
jandl100
14-11-2012, 08:51
Yup, got that - and I edited my post accordingly. :lol:
jandl100
14-11-2012, 08:53
I see you use a turntable, Chris -- pot kettle black? :ner: :eyebrows:
I'm quite happy living in the past. Compact Disc was enough 'progress' for me. Like Jerry I have yet to hear a streaming solution that is able to really impress - not to say that they do not exist - but checking out some of the computer audio threads on this site does give a good indication of how complex and involved a process it is to get a high quality sound by this method.
I have now changed my entire system including the speakers, come in under budget, sold my old system for more than I paid for it and now have a sound I only used to dream about. And finally, even if you gave me the choice of any CDP at any budget I still wouldn't have one, its just not an option I would choose anymore, as I love what I have . . . its the future for me. I still buy CD's as I don't like downloads, but that's as far as it goes, I just buy them, rip them to FLAC, scan the artwork (a work in progress) and then archive the disc. Everything is then accessed from the sofa via my Android tablet.
It's really uplifting to read a success story like yours, Tim. Your solution couldn't be more different from mine, but that's not the point. You have found one that suits your needs and makes you happy. I applaud your research and inquiry, and your system looks and sounds great.
Stratmangler
14-11-2012, 09:08
I see you use a turntable, Chris -- pot kettle black? :ner: :eyebrows:
Not at all - I didn't throw out my record collection when CD came along, although I did stop playing it at one time, and played CD exclusively.
I returned to vinyl in the late 1990s, and have retained its use ever since.
I don't think that the company that made laser reading record players is in business any more, so that option has disappeared, not that it ever was an option for normal folk because the product was too damned expensive, and by virtue of that it was exclusive.
I really don't see how the PSU can create an effect that alters the content of the file that the dlna server serves.
We've been here before, Richard. It's not the data content of the stream that's affected (if it was, the distortions would be gross). It's jitter in the stream (time domain distortion), waveform rounding and RFI from the environment and switched-mode PSUs, as Marco said. All these things affect the receiving DAC to a greater or lesser degree.
Stop the Ravelling Nancy, anyone?
So how do you explain the uptake of vinyl, then? :lol:
Stratmangler
14-11-2012, 09:21
So how do you explain the uptake of vinyl, then? :lol:
There was nothing else around when I was a lad :)
Well, there were a few other things, like cassette machines and 8 track and R2R, but other than that...:eyebrows:
Oh, you mean my return to using vinyl?
The software was already there, all it required was the hardware to make sense of it.
When we get to the AOS show in the future I think it be great to put this to the test. So we have either Tim or my computer based transport now we just need a decent CD Transport and agree on the DAC. Anyone up for the challenge. Marco how about you bringing your CD Transport
John, we did this to an extent at the Coherent Sound Meet and if I recall the streamers did rather well ;)
What was used as the 'decent CD transport', and I'll give you my opinion if it's decent or not... ;)
Marco.
We've been here before, Richard. It's not the data content of the stream that's affected (if it was, the distortions would be gross). It's jitter in the stream (time domain distortion), waveform rounding and RFI from the environment and switched-mode PSUs, as Marco said. All these things affect the receiving DAC to a greater or lesser degree.
Which, if you have been following the recent threads on PFM, clearly indicates that its engineering in the DAC that is questionable not the streaming host. The host SMPS is more likely to adversely affect any other part of the audio system that is plugged in close or on the same mains spur rather than 'alter' any thing in the host itself. ;)
purite audio
14-11-2012, 10:35
I use a Weiss MAN301 network player here, it can play CDs directly or you can play the ripped file of the CD from the NAS ,both sound absolutely identical, as you would expect in a properly designed and implemented product.
Keith.
I stream from a self-built PC. A lot of my music is female jazz vocal based and I can't say I notice a noisy background. I have an excellent quality Be Quiet 650w PS fitted in my tower, which I guess might make a difference. I would like to set up a NAS system but I wouldn't know where to start.
Which, if you have been following the recent threads on PFM, clearly indicates that its engineering in the DAC that is questionable not the streaming host. The host SMPS is more likely to adversely affect any other part of the audio system that is plugged in close or on the same mains spur rather than 'alter' any thing in the host itself. ;)
Sometimes an optical feed is best, simply to eliminate some of the hash on the co-ax earth line. Agreed that ultimately, it's down to the DAC's rejection and clocking abilities. However, it's always best to give it the easiest time possible.
The host SMPS is more likely to adversely affect any other part of the audio system that is plugged in close or on the same mains spur rather than 'alter' any thing in the host itself. ;)
Which is as good a reason as any not to use a streaming solution with an SMPS, or have anything with an SMPS plugged into the same mains supply as your system... High-quality linear PSUs are the ONLY way to go, if you want to do computer audio properly.
Marco.
Hi Keith,
I use a Weiss MAN301 network player here, it can play CDs directly or you can play the ripped file of the CD from the NAS ,both sound absolutely identical, as you would expect in a properly designed and implemented product.
Is the transport mech in your Weiss CD-only or universal?
Marco.
purite audio
14-11-2012, 12:24
That's a good question, I am pretty sure CD only, it reads the data and then buffers it, like the Meridian 808 CDP.
Keith.
Richard Kimber
14-11-2012, 12:31
We've been here before, Richard. It's not the data content of the stream that's affected (if it was, the distortions would be gross). It's jitter in the stream (time domain distortion), waveform rounding and RFI from the environment and switched-mode PSUs, as Marco said. All these things affect the receiving DAC to a greater or lesser degree.
Yes, but my point is that jitter is only relevant at the client end, as it were. The tcp protocol should ensure that the file is delivered properly to the client's buffer, and the pc's psu isn't relevant. If it works at all, it works; a properly designed dlna client shouldn't have time domain problems in receiving the tcp packets (assuming the router etc., are all working). Needless to say if the packets stop and the client's buffer empties, then the music stops because there's nothing for the DAC to process.
Of course, the client's psu is very important in what happens after the client starts to process the file from the buffer, and yes of course the receiving DAC is going to be sensitive to the problems you mention. But the great advantage of a dlna streaming system is that it cuts the pc out of the equation (so long as its ethernet function is working normally) and puts the focus on the client streamer.
- Richard.
Richard Kimber
14-11-2012, 12:38
Thanks for your response Tim,
I think we may be at cross purposes here. I don't deny that the power supply can be very important (I'm even in the middle of upgrading my own power cords as we speak).
Maybe we are confusing the methods of playback here. Of course, if you have a coaxial or usb cable linking the pc to your audio system and you are using a pc media player to play music on your system, then the psu on the pc will have an effect because the music will be processed by the pc via the sound card. However, if the music is not processed by the pc, but instead the music file is delivered, as is, by tcp over an ethernet cable then there should be no difference between the music file as it arrives at the client streamer and the music file as it left the recording studio you bought it from. The psu of the computer has no effect on this. What does matter at this point is the psu of the client streamer. That's what makes the difference, and I entirely agree that having a good power supply for this is important. But the pc psu only matters in situations where the pc is processing the music file, as opposed to just facilitating its delivery intact to the streaming client. If this were not true, then when you buy and download music files their quality would be dependent on the psu of the webserver and indeed that of your broadband supplier.
I am not a technical objectivist but someone who likes to build, trial and test and ultimately trust what my ears tell me - they are what give me pleasure and are the final arbitrators. Here's one for you, the second server I built had a single mechanical 2TB HDD inside with the operating system and FLAC files written to it. Just digital data and at base level nothing more than bits and bytes on a hard drive. What difference would it make if you moved that hard drive outside the server and replaced it with an SSD drive for just the operating system and fed the server either from an external USB drive or via Ethernet and a NAS - bit perfect data in both cases, can't sound any different can it? Well I can tell you it does and I'm sure everyone who has tried it will agree, in fact I have yet to find anyone who disagrees. I'm sure there are many technical reasons to explain this and some may even be measurable, but try it yourself and see?
I personally can't hear any difference on my system between files served from an internal drive and files served from an external USB drive.
Yes, west Wales is a great place to live. It's like being permanently on holiday (it helps being retired) and I can play music without worrying about the neighbours :-)
- Richard.
That's a good question, I am pretty sure CD only, it reads the data and then buffers it, like the Meridian 808 CDP.
Basically what I'm getting at is that it won't play DVDs or SACDs, etc, just ordinary CD? :)
Marco.
Yes, west Wales is a great place to live. It's like being permanently on holiday (it helps being retired) and I can play music without worrying about the neighbours :-)
I second those sentiments about Wales. I'm semi-retired (at 47). West Wales is even more remote/unspoiled than most parts of North Wales. We plan to tour around that way next year, out towards Pembrokeshire, etc.
No neighbours here either :)
One question you may be able to help me with, Richard, is in my mate's streaming system, any idea why playing files stored on the inbuilt hard-drive of his PS3 sounds better than when the same music files are accessed via the hard-drive upstairs on his PC, using CAT-5 cable?
The sound is markedly superior when playing the files directly from the PS3's inbuilt hard-drive....
Marco.
So..the CD's are gradually getting ripped and put in a box in the basement to be sold when I get round to it. :)
Remember to then delete the rips and all back-ups as you sell each CD.. else fall foul of the law for having pirated material (you'll no-longer have the right to keep the copy as you pass the licence on to the physical CD owner.)
Something to consider if you care about that sort of thing.
It's an oblique reference to the Luddite uprising during the Industrial Revolution :eyebrows:
Hmm.... I don't see that Jerry will be loosing his job and his whole family potentially starving to death because of a music streamer . Thought you took early retirement Jerry? :scratch:
:lol:
That's a good question, I am pretty sure CD only, it reads the data and then buffers it, like the Meridian 808 CDP.
Keith.
This is the same as my point which turns Stanley's OP around 180' .
A CD player these days should be able to apply the same technology/build that makes it a great CD player for the very ripping of the data too.
Keep the superbly build CD player with data output, eSATA or whatever, and ditch the laptop drive.
kininigin
14-11-2012, 15:49
I haven't used a stand alone cd player for a couple of years now.
I think at the budget end of things this can make sense,even with a smps.The pc/external dac i use now,is considerably better than the cd player i was using before,both being around the same price.
Having said that though,i would like to sort out my digital front end out.It's good considering the price but not quite right for me at the moment.
Not sure which way to go really,no rush atm though,won't be to well into next year before thinking about it.
I second those sentiments about Wales. I'm semi-retired (at 47). West Wales is even more remote/unspoiled than most parts of North Wales. We plan to tour around that way next year, out towards Pembrokeshire,
Marco.
Spent a lot of time this summer with work stuff in Pembrokeshire. Highly recommend The Grove Hotel in Narbeth. The food there is world class .
Which is as good a reason as any not to use a streaming solution with an SMPS, or have anything with an SMPS plugged into the same mains supply as your system... High-quality linear PSUs are the ONLY way to go, if you want to do computer audio properly.
Marco.
Not IME its not, the affect can be heard at the DAC but at the Host....not IME.
Well, I can clearly hear the difference, so we'll just have to agree to differ :)
Marco.
Highly recommend The Grove Hotel in Narbeth. The food there is world class .
Interesting, I think I know that place would you believe, mind you its a good few years since I have been there and it was a crumbling wreck then. Didn't it used to be a coaching house? I used to work in a hotel in Cardigan which was an old coach house, so had quite a few 'busman's' holidays touring the area ;) Pembrokeshire is beautiful Marco.
I think we may be at cross purposes here. I don't deny that the power supply can be very important (I'm even in the middle of upgrading my own power cords as we speak).
I think we are Richard, interesting discussion though. Can you describe exactly what equipment you have and what you are doing in relation to file steaming, it may make things a little clearer?
Your solution couldn't be more different from mine, but that's not the point. You have found one that suits your needs and makes you happy.
Exactly spot on Martin, I think many folk get me wrong thinking I am some sort of computer audio evangelist, which couldn't be any farther from the truth. I am quite simply overjoyed with where I am right now and am enjoying music more than any time in my life, apart from perhaps when I was a teenager and got my first ever system. I'm no computer expert either, more an enthusiastic amateur who happened to stumble upon a sweet spot at the right time during an upgrade.
I totally accept that what I do is unique to my particular circumstances and would not suit everyone, I'm also lucky enough to be able to confidently build my own server and 'tinker' with it, many people will shy away from that, but in all honesty its really not that difficult, quite simple really, just time consuming. Its whatever works for the individual and file streaming really works for me.
At the end of the day I don't and never have claimed to be a hi-fi purist, I'm sure if I was the thought of a computer playing music would leave me cold - but then I don't consider my server to be a computer, its a transport like anything else. What matters to me and my primary driving force is getting the best sound for the least money so I can enjoy listening to music and going to see artists live, which is where the lions share of my money goes. For me the music always has and always will come first ;)
Tim
Remember to then delete the rips and all back-ups as you sell each CD.. else fall foul of the law for having pirated material (you'll no-longer have the right to keep the copy as you pass the licence on to the physical CD owner.)
Something to consider if you care about that sort of thing.
"meah, see, you'll never take me alive copper ! meah,meah..."
"meah, see, you'll never take me alive copper ! meah,meah..."
Just tell the copper they're being held offshore in a vault for safe keeping.. but still under your ownership.
bobbasrah
14-11-2012, 16:50
On Stan's original point, I confess the standalone players are gathering dust than getting any real daily use for some time now. I never attempted to use the desktop's drive to play a CD, it never occurred to make the comparison, but I shall try it later.
Any time I go to play a "guest's" CD I have to step through a refresher course on how to use the standalone player before hunting for the remote which may or may not have juice left in the batteries.....
External hard drives separating OS from the media seems to be a common issue and one with which I agree was a problem on the old XP machine.
Multiple SATA/USB controllers on the motherboard are more commonplace now, and there should be no need to revert to a external drive unless machine space is limited. I have no such constraints, Win7, 2 SATA controllers, 6 drives, 2 USB controllers, no problems using a non-Win media player.
The old chestnut of SMPS v Linear is really a less critical issue these days IMHO. Good quality SMPS units are available and affordable, and have improved tremendously on both electrical and physical noise.
Motherboard switching noise and regulators have improved markedly also, which is just as well as they tended to exceed SMPS noise, which no linear would resolve.
I tried hooking up a high specced and high powered linear at one point but it made not a jot of difference over the comparitively tiny SMPS, and that is how it will stay for now. YMMV.
Well said Bob and as you rightly point out, there are quite a few elements in the mix these days. I think people just trying any old computer are likely to be disappointed, which is to be expected. Get the mix right, be that the O/S, internal components and method of delivery and it just works. Its like anything in system building, some thought needs to be applied at the design level stage, rather than just pulling out an old laptop and loading foobar2000 or whatever onto it.
"meah, see, you'll never take me alive copper ! meah,meah..."
Let's be clear that this forum does not condone music piracy. You cannot rip CDs and then sell them - you lose the right to keep that music and should delete the files.
Any further suggestions to the contrary will be immediately removed.
Let's be clear that this forum does not condone music piracy. You cannot rip CDs and then sell them - you lose the right to keep that music and should delete the files.
Any further suggestions to the contrary will be immediately removed.
Fair enough Martin, I do understand where you are coming from ..although my comment was in jest.
as far as I am aware, it actually is still technically illegal to actually rip a CD, even for personal use- whether you keep the cd or otherwise
This will be the case until the Digital Economy Act 2010 actually becomes law.
At least in this area, one politician actually talks some sense.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14384268
it actually is still technically illegal to actually rip a CD, even for personal use
It is still illegal, nothing technical about it, its the law, but it is now generally accepted you have a statutory defence which 'should' prevent prosecution if you have transferred the copyright material from one format to another, i.e. rip a CD for personal use only and retain the original. However, if you sell, give away or dispose of the original copyrighted material you will have no legal rights whatsoever to retain a copy.
http://conversation.which.co.uk/technology/why-is-ripping-music-still-illegal/
bobbasrah
15-11-2012, 04:57
It is still illegal, nothing technical about it, its the law, but it is now generally accepted you have a statutory defence which 'should' prevent prosecution if you have transferred the copyright material from one format to another, i.e. rip a CD for personal use only and retain the original. However, if you sell, give away or dispose of the original copyrighted material you will have no legal rights whatsoever to retain a copy.
http://conversation.which.co.uk/technology/why-is-ripping-music-still-illegal/
The legal position is quite clear, just as it is with posted speed limits.
Since Richard doesn't seem to be around at the moment, would anyone else care to have a go at this:
One question you may be able to help me with, Richard, is in my mate's streaming system, any idea why playing files stored on the inbuilt hard-drive of his PS3 sounds better than when the same music files are accessed via the hard-drive upstairs on his PC, using CAT-5 cable?
The sound is markedly superior when playing the files directly from the PS3's inbuilt hard-drive....
:cool:
Marco.
My take, Marco: you're comparing file reads on the built-in hard disk, where buffering will ensure that plenty of data sits 'waiting' for clocking to the DAC, with the sending of files over ethernet (I assume you meant Cat-5), which is packet-based and subject to collisions and re-sends. This means the file arrives in 'bursty' fashion and, although buffered at the receiving end, causes the timing and possibly power rails to reflect the nature of the received data.
Yup, CAT-5, sorry. I shall amend my earlier posts. That's interesting, Martin, and kind of makes sense.
Could that mean then that the procedure of the 'host' relaying the music data to the DAC, for processing, is not as perfect as has been claimed, and indeed is subject to elements of interference, which may result in a loss of integrity of said data?
Given that many people, who are into computer audio, use off-board hard-drives for storing their music files (as in-built ones at source are rarely large enough), connected from the 'host' to the external drives via CAT-5 cable, then what you're suggesting, and I have also alluded to, is a strong possibility, no?
Marco.
Yes indeed; a good clue is that my Logitech Touch sounds considerably poorer when fed a stream via Wi-Fi than via Cat-5 ethernet. Now, in a perfect world they should sound the same, right? After all, the data arrives in bursts, is assembled in the Touch's buffer, and then sent out to its or an external DAC. So why do they sound different? I can only surmise because Wi-Fi packets are extremely bursty and laggy compared with the relatively (!) smooth Cat-5. This is bound to cause PSU noise problems and clocking jitter if nothing else.
Yup... I simply don't believe that the process involved of transfering data from the 'host' to the DAC is as infallible as some people claim. I believe that the 'infrastructure', currently involved and necessary, is far from perfect.
Now I'm certainly not a technically minded person, least of all about computer audio, but even I can see, through using common sense, that those who claim that 'it's all about the DAC' are guilty of overly simplistic thinking, or perhaps it's more wishful thinking? ;)
I don't care what the measurements say either (or what has supposedly been 'proven', to date, on the matter), as we all know from experience elsewhere that measurements only tell *part* of the story!
Marco.
Yes indeed; a good clue is that my Logitech Touch sounds considerably poorer when fed a stream via Wi-Fi than via Cat-5 ethernet. Now, in a perfect world they should sound the same, right? After all, the data arrives in bursts, is assembled in the Touch's buffer, and then sent out to its or an external DAC. So why do they sound different? I can only surmise because Wi-Fi packets are extremely bursty and laggy compared with the relatively (!) smooth Cat-5. This is bound to cause PSU noise problems and clocking jitter if nothing else.
People should go fibrechannel instead - get all proper server gear for cheap these days.
Is that notionally 'perfect', too?
Marco.
Basically what I'm getting at is that it won't play DVDs or SACDs, etc, just ordinary CD? :)
Still waiting for an answer on this, Keith - cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Stratmangler
15-11-2012, 11:05
Still waiting for an answer on this, Keith - cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Looking at the specification it only plays (and rips) CD.
However it looks to be capable of playing other resolution material such as 24/192 (and beyond).
http://www.weiss-highend.ch/man301/index.html
Is that notionally 'perfect', too?
Marco.
Fibrechannel is designed to deliver data without any loss over long distances and through all sorts of switching, routing etc. Often it uses buffers at each end so that data is delivered at the right time in the right order, none of this loosing a packet business like with Ethernet and everything having to wait until that packet is delivered again etc.
An internal card is £30 or so, an old rackmount enclosure maybe a bit more (have even seen pretty looking, old Apple X-RAIDs with many drives go for £60). Only thing to contend with is noise - change the fans.
Still, probably all unneccesary overkill..
Fibrechannel is designed to deliver data without any loss over long distances and through all sorts of switching, routing etc.
"Designed to deliver", is one thing, doing so in actuality (using the human ear as the arbiter, when judging the reproduction of musical information in real time, as opposed to merely the accurate delivery of 'bits') is another...
That aside, I believe the point that Martin and I have made is a valid one, and relevant in the applications many people are using with computer audio.
Marco.
Richard Kimber
15-11-2012, 11:28
I
One question you may be able to help me with, Richard, is in my mate's streaming system, any idea why playing files stored on the inbuilt hard-drive of his PS3 sounds better than when the same music files are accessed via the hard-drive upstairs on his PC, using CAT-5 cable?
The sound is markedly superior when playing the files directly from the PS3's inbuilt hard-drive....
Marco.
I don't really know anything about PS3s, but once you move to another room with, different acoustic and other kit, a whole host of issues come into play.
- Richard.
The room and equipment used was the same, Richard.
The only variable that changed was the DAC receiving the data from an off-board hard-drive upstairs (belonging to the 'host' PC), via CAT-5 cable, where instead it received said data directly from the on-board drive inside the PS3.
Like I said, the marked improvement, sonically, gained by employing the latter method, was very evident.
Marco.
Looking at the specification it only plays (and rips) CD.
However it looks to be capable of playing other resolution material such as 24/192 (and beyond).
http://www.weiss-highend.ch/man301/index.html
It's a PC with software limiting it to certain functions, hopefully tuned software so that it works very well.
See, in a way its a daft thing to discuss a PC or stand alone Cd player. What's the difference?
An old Cd player has processors in it that are specific to the playing of CDs.
This Weiss has generic, programmable processors in it but the software loaded onto them are specific to playing CDs.
A media server of laptop is a PC with generic processors running generic operating software but with specific CD playing software on top of that.
It's a just a matter of layers. Really nothing to get your knickers in a twist about other than it now being cheaper to produce generic, multi-purpose processors and rely on the software instead.
It is the human interface part that counts, is the important part and a matter of taste. I prefer an always-on, always dedicated to play CDs, stand alone CD player. Then I have a PC for doing other audio computer-y things that take more effort that popping a CD in the tray and can also play media files (or I would if it was set up).
Richard Kimber
15-11-2012, 12:03
I think we are Richard, interesting discussion though. Can you describe exactly what equipment you have and what you are doing in relation to file steaming ;), it may make things a little clearer?
Tim
Hi Tim:
Files are stored ultimately on a 2TB Samsung external USB drive, though if they need any editing etc I can play them off an internal HD, either via the streamer, or play by USB cable to the MDAC. The PC has a Gigabyte MB with 4GB. The system runs off a Zalman SSD and is linux - currently Ubuntu 12.04. I use minidlna as the dlna server, though I've experimented with one or two others, including the Logitech media server. Minidlna works, and is quite 'light weight'. This is connected by ethernet cable to the home network, off which hangs a Pioneer N-50, which is the dlna client, and also does internet radio. The digital output from this goes to the Audiolab MDAC, the output from which goes via Mark Grant pure silver interconnects to the Quad pre-amp, which connects to the Elites monos by Quadlink cable. The Quad speakers connect via some Sinclair Acoustics pure silver speaker cables to the Quad ESL 2805s. I mostly have Mark Grant power cords, and I use Tacima power strips, and also a small Isotek mains conditioner. There's also a CD player (8200CD) that connects to the MDAC. I don't do vinyl any more, though I suppose if I had the time I'd experiment with digitising the several hundred disks I have, but I can't be bothered.
I don't know if that answers your question.
- Richard.
purite audio
15-11-2012, 12:45
Looking at the specification it only plays (and rips) CD.
However it looks to be capable of playing other resolution material such as 24/192 (and beyond).
http://www.weiss-highend.ch/man301/index.html
The Weiss will play any codec or file type , Apple or PC , Alac,AIFF, FLAC,WAV etc, it out play SAVDs unless you strip the DSD and convert into PCM.
Keith.
Stratmangler
15-11-2012, 12:49
The Weiss will play any codec or file type , Apple or PC , Alac,AIFF, FLAC,WAV etc, it out play SAVDs unless you strip the DSD and convert into PCM.
Keith.
What I meant is that the Weiss play CDs, along with all the file based stuff, and does not read DVD-A or SACD discs.
It can also rip the CDs to HDD.
"Designed to deliver", is one thing, doing so in actuality (using the human ear as the arbiter, when judging the reproduction of musical information in real time, as opposed to merely the accurate delivery of 'bits') is another...
That aside, I believe the point that Martin and I have made is a valid one, and relevant in the applications many people are using with computer audio.
Marco.
"designed to deliver" was my phrase I made up - nothing to give much weight to.
SATA is for consumer stuff and non-critical applications, Fibrechannel is for mission critical stuff.
I'm not really sure what the meaning of your reply was to be honest... sounded like you were dismissing fibrechannel as an idea because you hadn't listened to it..
If you can only make decisions by listening, then you're condemned to listening to every permutation of everything. At some point, to cut to the chase, to reach a goal before you die, you have to start to work out why one thing might sound better than the other and make a decision based on technical matters.
I don't know if that answers your question.
- Richard.
Yes it does Richard and thanks for the reply - we have indeed been talking at cross purposes. In my scenario it would only 'in theory' be beneficial to explore improving the PSU for your N-50. My system is closer to a standard chain, i.e. CDP > DAC > Amp > Speakers with the CDP being replaced by my music server. I think you misunderstood where I/we were coming from based on your system, which is not the same. So apologies for that and we could have ended up going round in circles.
I think as I have touched on (this is a general comment Richard, not directed at your good self) many people think of the 'computer' as just that when its in the audio chain, be it a standalone one in the lounge or elsewhere on a network, these are general purpose devices used for many things. What I have is a very small player which does nothing but play music and has been put together and configured solely for that purpose, so does that really fit the definition of what most people understand to be a personal home computer? I think the two are very different and some of the replies here indicate people are judging them as the same thing, which they aren't IMO. I guess it all depends on what the end user *thinks* a computer is.
There are many keen and happy users of the Squeezebox Touch here too, but that's a computer, yet it seems to be recognised differently as it is used solely for playing music and doesn't have a keyboard, mouse and monitor attached to it, but by definition it is a computer "an electronic device which processes data according to instructions given to it" - like a stand-alone CDP really. And what's a CD player anyway - an electronic device which reads digital data from a spinning disc, processes that data and converts it to an analogue signal to feed to an amplifier? Same as my music server and DAC then ;)
Interesting thread though Stan and your PS3 question Marco, I think Martin is probably very near the mark, but there are other schools of thought here as well? Noise on the network could be one, but very many file based audio enthusiasts believe the actual hard drive itself can sound different, in fact many swear by it. This may interest Richard as it flies in the face of the 'bit perfect data file' not being able to sound different. However, this difference is argued because of the 'electrical' noise a spinning hard drive can introduce into the chain, due to its drive controller, spin speed and if its an external drive, is it powered by a SMPS? These factors can be vindicated by the now commonly accepted 'best case scenario' amongst the fraternity that SSD or USB flash drives have the best sonic characteristics for playback - very low power requirements, no spinning disc or other moving parts and almost instant access to the data. My own personal tests have confirmed this.
Bryston I believe have tested this extensively during R&D for their BDP-1 digital player, which unlike a Linn DS streamer (or most others for that matter) can only play files from an external USB drive, you can access it via a network for remote control purposes, but you cannot stream files to it as they believe there is a sonic degradation and performance is compromised by utilising this method, however they do not tell you why they believe this as I have asked and just got the reply that the network can introduce noise and stutter during playback, which I already know, but no technical explanation. I expect that was just lack of knowledge on the part of the sales rep? When they demonstrated it to me they played music files from a USB flash drive, so suffice to say they agree with your personal experience Marco. I also agree that there is a difference, having tried it here and will be going away from streaming from a NAS on my next build. However, for it to be a true test the hard drives would need to be identical, contain the same data and be powered the same.
By the way and I haven't heard them all, but the BDP-1 is the best digital player I have heard playing high resolution files from a USB flash drive. Its a very basic player, almost spartan in function and appearance but that IMO is its strength, less is more.
If you can only make decisions by listening, then you're condemned to listening to every permutation of everything.
Not really. After some experimenting, you simply choose the best compromise possible (using your own judgement criteria), and live with it. That's what I do. Some people, however, aren't comfortable with achieving anything other than some technical notion of 'perfection', which in reality doesn't exist... ;)
At some point, to cut to the chase, to reach a goal before you die, you have to start to work out why one thing might sound better than the other and make a decision based on technical matters.
Nope. I just use my ears as the final arbiter - always have done and always will do. My current (superb sounding) system has been assembled as a result of not ONE final decision regarding equipment choice, or set-up thereof, being influenced by any technical consideration, and that's the way it will stay! :)
There have been some excellent recent responses to this thread, which I will deal with later :cool:
Marco.
Richard Kimber
15-11-2012, 16:06
Yes it does Richard and thanks for the reply - we have indeed been talking at cross purposes. In my scenario it would only 'in theory' be beneficial to explore improving the PSU for your N-50. My system is closer to a standard chain, i.e. CDP > DAC > Amp > Speakers with the CDP being replaced by my music server. I think you misunderstood where I/we were coming from based on your system, which is not the same. So apologies for that and we could have ended up going round in circles.
Tim:
Thanks for the reply.
Having spent quite a lot recently, I think I'll have to wait a while before looking at improving the power supply for the N-50. Unless you have any inexpensive suggestions.
I've more or less decided that I'll get the improved power supply for the MDAC when John Westlake releases it next Spring (as the MPAX). The reports are that, together with an internal upgrade known as the 'sovereign' upgrade, this will make a major difference. :D
- Richard.
Actually, mines even easier than that - just tap an album cover on a pad like this; which sits on the sofa as a remote control.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/tablet-gizmo.png
A file based audio system does not have to bear any resemblance to a computer whatsoever, mine is just a small black box with an On/Off button ;)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/rega1-1.jpg
Being myself an IT guy seems kinda silly asking this, but would really like to part with all my CDP's taking space and take the Server/DAC route only, as long as I don't loose any quality in the process.
Now, I don't have any problems getting the hardware installed, but a decent music server is just a PC rig in a smaller factor running win7 with a decent media player (jriver etc)?
TBH would like some help with this as I'm already selling most of my gear here in Portugal and would like to begin with this step up asap.
Nope. I just use my ears as the final arbiter - always have and always will do. My current (superb sounding) system has been assembled as a result of not ONE final decision regarding equipment choice, or set-up thereof, being influenced by any technical consideration, and that's the way it will stay! :)
Final arbiter, yes. But how do you make the decision which to actually listen to? Just chance? Just exposure? You only listen to other people's gear and never try anything new yourself?
There are many many different ways of setting up some kind of file-based system. Someone somewhere has to make choices in what technology to use in assembling a system BEFORE they can even listen to it to judge.
A NAS for example doesn't make any sound that you can listen to before choosing to investing money in it for a file based set-up. The decision has to be made on a technical basis, on an incling of what might work best, which unfortunately requires some understanding of the technologies..
And given that knowledge part I guess many people will stick to stand-alone CD players due to a lack of it. The big brand media servers are often really expensive and yet the jury is still out as to whether it will sound better than an equivalent top transport of the same value on the secondhand market, something that will keep its value to whilst the new media server will depreciate.
DIY is the only way to go for top sounding media servers at the moment for resonable cost and for many that's probably too daunting I feel.
Being myself an IT guy seems kinda silly asking this, but would really like to part with all my CDP's taking space and take the Server/DAC route only, as long as I don't loose any quality in the process.
Now, I don't have any problems getting the hardware installed, but a decent music server is just a PC rig in a smaller factor running win7 with a decent media player (jriver etc)?
TBH would like some help with this as I'm already selling most of my gear here in Portugal and would like to begin with this step up asap.
Personally, I would say to just set up a basic system (a small, quiet PC) with good software like Jriver and see how you like it first. Setting up the Android or IOS app with it is not too difficult, especially for an IT guy.
I guess the only bit you might need advice on is how to get the audio out of it in the first place. USB DACs are plentiful and also many soundcards with s/pdif outputs.
Live with it first and then hone it once you know you like how it works.
i did of course start , and got most way through , but hindsight , don't back up when complete , back up as you go :o lost the lot in one insant moment :( thought i would rip the lot , get an extra hard drive , copy , be fine :scratch: nope its as the old seventies ray stevens song went , but it was too late ethel , ethal don't look , but it was too late , so rip , at end of week , copy , end of next week copy , get the picture ?
Yup that's another valid reason, its not much fun ripping a large collection if you don't want or need to.
But how do you make the decision which to actually listen to? Just chance? Just exposure? You only listen to other people's gear and never try anything new yourself?
Gut instinct (some of my best and most rewarding decisions in audio have came about that way), or using the Internet to thoroughly research interesting options, in terms of equipment or ancillaries (as I did with the Techy), and/or hearing something which piques my interest at a show or a friend's house. Technical matters rarely, if ever, come into my equipment selection process.
And given that knowledge part I guess many people will stick to stand-alone CD players due to a lack of it.
That doesn't apply to me, although I have little knowledge of the subject. The one and only reason I haven't added some sort of music streamer to my system so far is that I've yet to find one which, sonically, can compete with my existing traditional music sources. There's no point in adding a music source that, to my ears, sounds worse than what I've already got, is there? :)
The big brand media servers are often really expensive and yet the jury is still out as to whether it will sound better than an equivalent top transport of the same value on the secondhand market, something that will keep its value to whilst the new media server will depreciate.
Good point and I agree.
DIY is the only way to go for top sounding media servers at the moment for resonable cost and for many that's probably too daunting I feel.
If I was keen enough I'd pay one of the DIY-ers here, who really know their stuff, to build one for me. Money is not the issue.
Given what I've heard from some very well regarded commercially produced music streamers, big brand and otherwise, where I've largely been disappointed with the results, I suspect that it would take a bespoke-built, 'no compromise' streamer, to satisfy my sonic standards: perhaps something tweaked to within an inch of its life, by the likes of our very own Tim or John (Welder), where uber (linear) PSUs featured heavily, and the best possible components.
However, the problem is that as I already enjoy such fantastic sound from my CDP and turntable, I can't really be arsed faffing around with computers...! :eyebrows:
Marco.
There are many keen and happy users of the Squeezebox Touch here too, but that's a computer, yet it seems to be recognised differently as it is used solely for playing music and doesn't have a keyboard, mouse and monitor attached to it
It certainly is a computer and runs a version of Linux inside. All computer-related issues therefore apply.
It certainly is a computer and runs a version of Linux inside. All computer-related issues therefore apply.
Exactly Martin, the Bryston BDP-1 also runs on a Linux kernel as I suspect most commercial streamers do.
However, the problem is that as I already enjoy such fantastic sound from my CDP and turntable, I can't really be arsed faffing around with computers...!
And why would you Marco, that's exactly the point and it would be a faff if it wasn't something you really wanted to do, or had the knowledge to - being happy with what you have is what its all about :)
With regard to the commercial products they are as pointed out ridiculously expensive in some cases, I think the Bryston is around £2.3k and it was discussed here previously, but I cannot find the thread. When you are comparing like for like in the upper price brackets, you would really need to 'want' a streamer instead of a CDP, as £2.3k would buy you a lot of CDP on the used market and you still need a DAC on top of the streamer price, so DIY is an attractive option for those that can achieve it, especially if they really want a streamer.
Some people may remember the brow beating John (Welder) gave me when I was thinking of buying a Linn DS or a Bryston instead of building my own, thank goodness he did too, saved me thousands and wouldn't have been half as much fun as DIY. Its all about finding what works for you, IMO no system is better than another when used within the context of what the user requires from it and what their individual preferences are - it's the music that matters most and getting the best from your chosen system, within your budget.
When you look inside a Bryston, you can see why anyone who is comfortable building a computer would consider going the DIY route. Not to take anything away from it either, as I said earlier its the best high-res commercial product I have heard playing files from a flash drive, but I reckon I am now in the same ball park and have spent a fraction of its cost.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/bryston.jpg
So from my point of view I totally agree with Stan in his OP, for me there is no purpose to a stand alone CDP anymore - YMMV
Finally, going back to Marco's question about streaming via a network, I have just been reading a Bryston forum and it seems they were discussing a firmware update in July, which would allow the BDP-1 to stream files from a NAS, so they have moved the goal posts. I suppose it was necessary as just about every other streamer will do this. I guess the moral here is don't take anything a manufacturer, salesman or magazine tells you as gospel, use it as a guide and then find out yourself, with your own lug holes ;)
Stratmangler
16-11-2012, 00:43
Finally, going back to Marco's question about streaming via a network, I have just been reading a Bryston forum and it seems they were discussing a firmware update in July, which would allow the BDP-1 to stream files from a NAS, so they have moved the goal posts. I suppose it was necessary as just about every other streamer will do this. I guess the moral here is don't take anything a manufacturer, salesman or magazine tells you as gospel, use it as a guide and then find out yourself, with your own lug holes ;)
:yesbruv:
I memory serves me right Chris, it was you and I who were discussing the Bryston previously and I think we both agreed it had a nice case :D
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/bryston.jpg
:stalks:
That must be just one of several boxes, surely? Perhaps this is just for the processing of the interface... :scratch:
Seems like you're paying then for the software rather than the hardware. £2000 for the software.
You can run Linux on Arm or Atom can't you? My dad used to sell those types of boards, probably about £90.
I know you prefer a CDP Nat, but as I wanted a streamer to fit my lifestyle, it perhaps now makes sense why I went DIY, especially when I heard what they are capable of - not a lot going on in there other than a small motherboard, PSU and some software, which made me think 'I can do that' ;)
@Tim whats the pc case on your music server?
Hi Nuno, its a Wesena Mini ITX2 - got mine from Amazon, but quite a few places sell them now as they have become popular http://www.wesena.co.uk/product.php/5/6/itx2
My new file based audio player is built around an Intel miniITX Atom motherboard, 2GB RAM, eSATA SSD and files currently on a network server, but this is shortly to change. Software currently is Win7 64bit (will be Win8 after next upgrade) and JRiver and I control it all using Radmin Server when I want to access the operating system - for playing music I use the android app Gizmo on my tablet which is provided free by JRiver.
This is the board;
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/DN2800MT-1.jpg
An Intel DN2800MT which I have had awhile and also seems to be a popular board amongst the fraternity, its strong points are the eSATA capability and DC jack on the input panel, so you can easily use a high quality Linear PSU, which when I get round to it will be a Paul Hynes PSU. Its a very clean and simple set-up, which is what I favour, low power, no moving parts and an SSD for the O/S.
I'm a happy bunny :)
Some very good info here if you are looking to build your own;
http://www.computeraudiophile.com
http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com
I must admit, I've spent a lot of time and effort improving various squeezebox platforms and testing with different source file type and sevaral DAC's and I just cannot beat the performance I get from CD. Don't get me wrong, the file based systems are exceptionally good but they do not get close to the performance of the spinner.
My audio aero capitole is basically a Philips cd pro mech outputting spdif into the filtering dac. It has several digital inputs. Even with back to back testing, the spinner wins every time even over some of the higher bit rate stuff.
Maybe it's the fact the even with extensive mods (which put the std touch to shame), the SB Touch is not in the same league as some of the high end media players???? I don't think I'm ready to leave CD behind just yet even though I do have all my cd's uncompressed on an external hdd.
It's not for everyone Ian that's for sure but I can say that a JRiver well configured server (from my experience) was more pleasing to me than a modded SBT. But a Touch is the perfect solution for many people too, as many here are happy users and it does punch well above its weight as a file streamer, especially when modded.
But if you are happy with CD stick with that and just enjoy the music ;)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/DN2800MT-1.jpg
That looks as if it means business!! :eek:
Marco.
@ Tim, thanks!
That's all plain simple but what about the sound card? Or is it just the USB to DAC that matters?.. :scratch:
Intel miniITX Atom motherboard . . . Win7 64bit (will be Win8 after next upgrade)
I hadn't realised there were any 64-bit capable Atom processors, but a quick Google and I see that the Pineview and Cedarview series support 64-bit. That makes for a very efficient and capable low power streamer.
bobbasrah
16-11-2012, 17:17
That looks as if it means business!! :eek:
Marco.
Just wait until you hear it on YouTube...... :goodluck:
Hi Nuno, its a Wesena Mini ITX2 - got mine from Amazon, but quite a few places sell them now as they have become popular http://www.wesena.co.uk/product.php/5/6/itx2
My new file based audio player is built around an Intel miniITX Atom motherboard, 2GB RAM, eSATA SSD and files currently on a network server, but this is shortly to change. Software currently is Win7 64bit (will be Win8 after next upgrade) and JRiver and I control it all using Radmin Server when I want to access the operating system - for playing music I use the android app Gizmo on my tablet which is provided free by JRiver.
This is the board;
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/DN2800MT-1.jpg
An Intel DN2800MT which I have had awhile and also seems to be a popular board amongst the fraternity, its strong points are the eSATA capability and DC jack on the input panel, so you can easily use a high quality Linear PSU, which when I get round to it will be a Paul Hynes PSU. Its a very clean and simple set-up, which is what I favour, low power, no moving parts and an SSD for the O/S.
I'm a happy bunny :)
Some very good info here if you are looking to build your own;
http://www.computeraudiophile.com
http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com
Hi Tim,
I like the look of the Wesena Mini ITX2 enclosure and I'm thinking of assembling a machine myself. I note that the mobo doesn't have a coaxial SP/DIF socket, is there a header on the mobo? If not it will be of no use to me unfortunately.
It's not for everyone Ian that's for sure but I can say that a JRiver well configured server (from my experience) was more pleasing to me than a modded SBT. But a Touch is the perfect solution for many people too, as many here are happy users and it does punch well above its weight as a file streamer, especially when modded.
But if you are happy with CD stick with that and just enjoy the music ;)
Indeed, don't get me wrong, the Touch punches very well out of the box but even more so with some mods (PSU, caps, regs & total clock redesign) and its more than acceptable and probably better than you'd expect. Couple that to a decent DAC and you're in business.
What I will say is that compared to a well modded heavyweight player either old skool TDA1541 like CD94 etc (eh Marco) or a well sorted late Marantz (SA7001 is my current weapon of choice) its not as good.
One of the issues with any PC based player is that even if you use a decent external linear PSU, there will be many SMPS on the motherboard screwing things up for you (much like in the Touch)
What I will say is that I'm definitely enjoying the music :cool:
Dave - have a look at the Intel D2700DC 2.13GHz Fanless Dual Core Atom Mini-ITX Board with HDMI, DVI-D and S/PDIF here at Mini-ITX. The Atom D2700 is 64-bit. They're a good company, I've bought ITX boards from them at work.
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=47
I heard the PP3 once and was pretty impressed with it as a alternative transport Personally I think it is great to have different methods of playback
I heard the Capitole a few times and along with Martin Ayre its the best CD players I ever heard but I still think computer audio performs at this level when done right and seeing that in many ways we still learning about how to get the best out of it I think computer audio has huge potential to develop even further as we are still learning how to get the best out out of it
....
Some people may remember the brow beating John (Welder) gave me when I was thinking of buying a Linn DS or a Bryston instead of building my own, thank goodness he did too, saved me thousands and wouldn't have been half as much fun as DIY.
...
ahhh...I am envious of your abilities.
Would love another streamer for the second system, but fun is not the first thought that pops into my head when thinking of a DIY server put together with my hands.
I guess thats why companies like Linn still charge what they do, and people like me pay up !! :doh::doh::doh:
Dave - have a look at the Intel D2700DC 2.13GHz Fanless Dual Core Atom Mini-ITX Board with HDMI, DVI-D and S/PDIF here at Mini-ITX. The Atom D2700 is 64-bit. They're a good company, I've bought ITX boards from them at work.
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=47
That is just the ticket Martin, thanks. On some mobo's the resolution from the optical sp/dif port is restricted to Red book & 24bit/48khz output only, do you know if that is the case with this one? It will be running Win7 32bit btw ;)
No, sorry Dave. However Mini-ITX are very helpful so it's worth asking them directly.
I'll do that ;)
The Intel D2700DC m/board audio subsytem uses the Intel NM10 express chipset combined with a realtec ACL662 codec. Which in plain English means its 6 channel (5.1) Intel High Definition (?) Audio supporting up to 24/96.
Info on using S/PDIF headers on other m/boards can be found here:
http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/sb/CS-032871.htm
Personally, I like the board Tim suggested, but it's problematic to use with Linux.
I'll be using Win7 so it shouldn't be an issue ;)
:stalks:
That must be just one of several boxes, surely? Perhaps this is just for the processing of the interface... :scratch:
Seems like you're paying then for the software rather than the hardware. £2000 for the software.
You can run Linux on Arm or Atom can't you? My dad used to sell those types of boards, probably about £90.
Actually, it may have been me who raised the subject of the Bryston BDP-1 digital player last year in this post: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=207061&postcount=126.
AFAIK a tweaked version of VoyageMPD Linux is at its heart. You're pretty close at £90, the m/board it uses it this one:
http://linitx.com/product/12291
While the overall hardware is probably worth more than £300, the Bryson still seems over priced cf to a self build.
What's the difference between the board being discussed and "other" mini ITX boards?
I have an ASROCK ION 330 that I have been using as a media centre for several years. It's primarily for use with xbmc for video playback and to serve the squeezebox. I've never even considered it for any thin other than video playback. I just can't see how this can better a Squeezebox???
I've never used/heard a squeezebox touch, but I see from your sig you've modded yours to death. It that both its hardware and software?
I believe there were complaints that the device lacked CPU grunt, that it was best used with the "sever" software running a separate device and a few other things like use with USB DACs, plus sadly it's now EOL. Technology has moved on, and markets change. I'm sure there's been plenty of discussion as to why Logitech has dropped the device and what could or might replace it.
As to whether some kind of mini-itx based system can better it, there's both SQ and usability to consider. I'll let others argue that one ...
The particular Intel Cedarview ITX board the Tim has talked about offers a very compact low energy solution with 12V DC input and has a native mSATA connection and should be usable in a fanless enclosure. Not many ITX boards offer all this. It's a pain from my point of view that as Intel choose to use PowerVR sgx545 for the GPU as this is poorly supported in Linux.
When you look inside a Bryston, you can see why anyone who is comfortable building a computer would consider going the DIY route. Not to take anything away from it either, as I said earlier its the best high-res commercial product I have heard playing files from a flash drive, but I reckon I am now in the same ball park and have spent a fraction of its cost.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/bryston.jpg
Returning to the Bryston for a moment, and at risk of re-hashing old arguments. The one thing the Bryston has over a typical self build is a bespoke PSU. The PSU appears to have linear regulation on both the 12V and 5V rail and connects directly to the m/board's 4pin power header. What quantitative difference this makes to SQ is hard to say, but there are plenty of people who argue that it does, and is vital.
Whether the cash strapped should spend money on a fancy PSU for their DAC or PC is another question. Personally I have neither, but then I think my old ears and system do not justify it.
If and when my CDP pegs out (and the CD tray is getting sticky), I might be tempted to build "audio computer" but I could equally well just look for another decent s/hand CDP.
I've never used/heard a squeezebox touch, but I see from your sig you've modded yours to death. It that both its hardware and software?
I believe there were complaints that the device lacked CPU grunt, that it was best used with the "sever" software running a separate device and a few other things like use with USB DACs, plus sadly it's now EOL. Technology has moved on, and markets change. I'm sure there's been plenty of discussion as to why Logitech has dropped the device and what could or might replace it.
As to whether some kind of mini-itx based system can better it, there's both SQ and usability to consider. I'll let others argue that one ...
The particular Intel Cedarview ITX board the Tim has talked about offers a very compact low energy solution with 12V DC input and has a native mSATA connection and should be usable in a fanless enclosure. Not many ITX boards offer all this. It's a pain from my point of view that as Intel choose to use PowerVR sgx545 for the GPU as this is poorly supported in Linux.
That's not literally to Death!!!! It's still works ;) I also have an unmolested one that allows me to compare what I've been doing mods wise. Yep it's both software and hardware mods including a total rework of its clocking and multiple separate linear regulation. The temporary clocks on the back of the unit have become permanent by default lol!!! I love the fact that I can control everything using iPeng, it's so convenient.
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/Squeezebox%20Touch/IMG_6774.jpg
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/Squeezebox%20Touch/IMG_6775.jpg
I do see a place for a pc based streamer, I just feel there is too much of a compromise because the m/b were never intended to be used for a single purpose. In that really expensive one, it looks like there is a completely bespoke board near the digital out. I wonder if that's part or what makes it so 'special'?
*edit - That and as mentioned above, linear PSU's (well in the first place in any case).
Very nice Ian. I wish had some electronic skills myslef. A DIY Bryston player looks just up your street. The Bryson's BDP-1 digital out is based on the (bottom half) of an ESI juli@ sound card fixed to the m/board via a PCI slot riser. Modded for BNC and AES/EBU (XLR). The isolated BNC S/PDIF out mod should be simple for you. They picked the card as it is well supported in Linux and is highly regarded.
Interesting! The sound card is still available! You mean it uses the PCI lower card which has a TOS digital out but not the analogue riser part.
It's not difficult to get a BNC spdif from the TOS (in fact I did it in my ION as I need coax not fiber to the sound processor)
So looking at another active thread, it looks like there I has been work done in for an audio focused Linux distro (Voyage MPD) so I guess the union of linear psu, tuned o/s and audiophile focused sound card could very well set things off in the right direction........
Now what about the case lol!!
Yes, circa £95. Not cheap, but the analogue half has impressive specs and a rather unique swappable output connections. The bottom half is as you say the digital section with Envy24 audio chip etc. and digital out. TOS is limited to 24/96, but coax is 24/192. Without modding you'd have to use a breakout cable for coax. I've seen which pin outs to use posted on audio forums in the past.
Frankly Voyage MPD was designed for use on embedded systems where the OS and apps are stored on compact flash and music files accessed remotely over a network. It will, of course, run on traditional X86 computers.
It not difficult to take various other flavours of Linux and configure them to run in what you might call an "audio optimised" mode. It's even debatable whether some of these optimisation make a great deal of difference to what some argue is an already inherently better SQ from Linux cf to windows. But if you have the time they are free to try.
I know you prefer a CDP Nat, but as I wanted a streamer to fit my lifestyle, it perhaps now makes sense why I went DIY, especially when I heard what they are capable of - not a lot going on in there other than a small motherboard, PSU and some software, which made me think 'I can do that' ;)
Only on an interface basis do I prefer a CD player, for playing CDs. A streamer is necessary these days as file based is another format that needs a player for too, not least because it may be the only way you can play deleted and rare vinyl that never made it CD or even rare CD that has never been re-released. Not having both though, for me, would need a special reason which I don't have (I have the space, I can afford it cos they're both cheap).
DIY of course all the way! Once you see inside a modern bit of hifi since the 2000s or so as prices have gone steadily up and internals got smaller and smaller, you start to wonder what you're paying for. Places like DIYAudio.com and the Lampizator site are all about that. Everything is about software these days, running on generic platforms. With open source so prevalent too, you'd have to be pretty well off to just pay for someone else to do it.
In the same way I don't understand people paying £100s for USB asynchronous this and that when tried and tested semi-pro sound cards have been doing fine for years and years and can be picked up cheap. The Bryston for example uses a normal sound card..
Returning to the Bryston for a moment, and at risk of re-hashing old arguments. The one thing the Bryston has over a typical self build is a bespoke PSU. The PSU appears to have linear regulation on both the 12V and 5V rail and connects directly to the m/board's 4pin power header. What quantitative difference this makes to SQ is hard to say, but there are plenty of people who argue that it does, and is vital......
Are you sure about that! ;) The Meanwell PM-05-5 is a switched mode PCB mounted unit that can be bought off-the-shelf...hardly bespoke.
In the same way I don't understand people paying £100s for USB asynchronous this and that when tried and tested semi-pro sound cards have been doing fine for years and years and can be picked up cheap. The Bryston for example uses a normal sound card.
You need an external DAC to use a BDP-1 Nat, fed digitally via SPDIF (BNC), AES/EBU (XLR)?
Are you sure about that! ;) The Meanwell PM-05-5 is a switched mode PCB mounted unit that can be bought off-the-shelf...hardly bespoke.
I freely admit that electronics is not my thing, but (a) this doesn't look like an off the shelf PSU to me, (b) as I said in my original 2011 thread Bryston have made use of a Meanwell unit in the design (for the 5V rail?) but doesn't it look to be combined with just the components you'd need for linear regulation?
Maybe it's not a great design, but it's not an external switch mode PSU and it's not something the average bod putting together a computer for audio has access to.
I freely admit that electronics is not my thing, but (a) this doesn't look like an off the shelf PSU to me, (b) as I said in my original 2011 thread Bryston have made use of a Meanwell unit in the design (for the 5V rail?) but doesn't it look to be combined with just the components you'd need for linear regulation?
Maybe it's not a great design, but it's not an external switch mode PSU and it's not something the average bod putting together a computer for audio has access to.
So what? There's still a switched mode element to the PSU! The MeanWell part is freely available off the shelf to all DIYers if they want it:
http://uk.farnell.com/mean-well/pm-05-5/psu-encapsulated-5w-5v/dp/1299035?Ntt=mean+well+pm-05-5
So what? There's still a switched mode element to the PSU! The MeanWell part is freely available off the shelf to all DIYers if they want it:
http://uk.farnell.com/mean-well/pm-05-5/psu-encapsulated-5w-5v/dp/1299035?Ntt=mean+well+pm-05-5
Well, to use your language, so what? Is the schematic for the Bryston PSU freely available? Do you think it provides linear regulation of both 12V and 5V rails to the m/board header? Is it a rubbish design? Just how well engineered should the PSU be to provide any audible benefit?
At the risk of labouring a point, Tim said: "When you look inside a Bryston, you can see why anyone who is comfortable building a computer would consider going the DIY route. Not to take anything away from it either, as I said earlier its the best high-res commercial product I have heard playing files from a flash drive, but I reckon I am now in the same ball park and have spent a fraction of its cost."
Many people argue Linear PSUs make a real difference to audio SQ, perhaps I'm wrong, but it could be one strength of the Bryston design. Or may be their's is just a cheap AC to DC solution? What do you think?
Those with the expertise can do their own thing. But for this application the non DIYer (which is me and many others) is stuck with standard ATX PSUs, SMP + picoPSU, or (more than likely) a single rail external linear PSU. These may not be ideal.
bobbasrah
18-11-2012, 13:05
....Those with the expertise can do their own thing. But for this application the non DIYer (which is me and many others) is stuck with standard ATX PSUs, SMP + picoPSU, or (more than likely) a single rail external linear PSU. These may not be ideal.
SMPS design is very specialised, and not really the stuff of traditional DIY electronic projects. Bespoke anything is expensive when made by someone else.:doh:
We seem to keep returning to the mantra of SMPS=poor, LINEAR=good, as if it is gospel. There are very good SMPSs as well as bad ones same as with linears, and I know of at least one DIY project where the sonic prowess and capability of the SMPS rendered the original intended linear a complete and expensive waste of time.;)
There are very good SMPSs as well as bad ones same as with linears . . .
Quite right Bob, not all SMPS are bad ;)
Sure but I think in general, until you get some very expensive and focused SMPS designed specifically for audio, they are bad!!!
I hate the fact that an el cheapo SMPS is supplied with the light I use to luminate my TT (now linear!) my router, sky box etc. you can get rid of some but I always have them as far away as possible from hifi mains supply.
I notice the newer aero players run from an internal SMPS now too!!!
Agreed Ian, but I think a lot of people make some sweeping statements at times, which could give the impression to those who know no different, that all SMPS are bad for audio, which would be incorrect. In 'general' and I use the term loosely, SMPS that are supplied for a lot of household equipment is budget and subsequently 'noisy' when used for audio purposes. It does the job its intended to for most people, but if you get fussy about audio their application needs to be scrutinised and addressed if necessary.
IMHO ;)
Rare Bird
18-11-2012, 21:24
What's the purpose of a stand alone CDP these days?
I can't think of one off hand, but i could use one on it's side to sit the bog roll on while i get the bathroom finished..
We seem to keep returning to the mantra of SMPS=poor, LINEAR=good, as if it is gospel.
Indeed, Bob. As with all such sweeping statements, a little more depth of understanding is required. There are many cheap SMPS around, especially the mass produced, mostly Chinese, types used for PC power supplies. They are relatively noisy and push a fair amount of RFI into the ether. Just put an AM radio close to one.
There are also superb, very high performance SMPS such as the unit in my Chord power amplifier that outperform any linear power supply on account of their very high frequency of operation. A power supply that replenishes its reservoir caps 80,000 times per second is going to show a clean pair of heels to one that operates at mains frequencies and only tops up the reservoir 100 times per second. It's one of the reasons why the Chord is such a potent, but compact, amplifier.
So beware sweeping generalisations.
Totally agree Martin, thing is there are only a handful lucky enough to come into anything other than crap SMPS.
I guess I'll have to live with my caps getting topped up 50 times a second........they are big caps tho! Lol
Yup, Martin's right. Trouble is, you rarely encounter the sort of quality of SMPS found inside Chord gear, inside your average computer audio product! Most of them, in comparison, are shit - which is why they (rightly) get slagged off by those with discerning ears.
I'd say that a 'less than awesome' linear PSU is *likely* to be better than a 'less than awesome' SMPS. However, the jury's out as to whether an 'awesome' linear PSU is better than an 'awesome' SMPS. It's likely, as ever, to come down to context and implementation.
Marco.
I guess I'll have to live with my caps getting topped up 50 times a second........
100 times a second in a 50Hz region (on account of full wave rectification).
DOH! Back to school for me!!!!!! :D
Yup, Martin's right. Trouble is, you rarely encounter the sort of quality of SMPS found inside Chord gear, inside your average computer audio product! Most of them, in comparison, are shit - which is why they (rightly) get slagged off by those with discerning ears.
I'd say that a 'less than awesome' linear PSU is *likely* to be better than a 'less than awesome' SMPS. However, the jury's out as to whether an 'awesome' linear PSU is better than an 'awesome' SMPS. It's likely, as ever, to come down to context and implementation.
Marco.
Not only this but cheap SMPS are destroying the planet!
When I muck about with stuff from the recycling in our block, pretty much 90% of anything thrown out with an SMPS in it is discarded for the sake of a few capacitors needing replacing in the power supply.
The whole DVD player, network switch, TV HD recorder etc etc thrown out because of 4 lousy, 10p capacitors! So then a whole new wave of manufacturing is triggered to replace the whole unit again..
Linear power supplies are on the whole more reliable from experience.
I can't think of one off hand, but i could use one on it's side to sit the bog roll on while i get the bathroom finished..
I'm sure you can still play CDs with it.
Give it to someone who needs a CD player and benefit mankind.
tommy6206
01-12-2012, 11:27
I'll just carry on enjoying my Technics SL P1200.Thats as far away from analogue as I want to be and only used when I am being lazy and cant be arsed to get up and flip the black stuff.
When I muck about with stuff from the recycling in our block, pretty much 90% of anything thrown out with an SMPS in it is discarded for the sake of a few capacitors needing replacing in the power supply.
As a service engineer back in the 1980s, we used to repair SMPS as they were too expensive to discard. I used to be known as SMPS king because I was brave enough to repair them and then power them up. Sometimes they would go up in a really quite impressive bang, accompanied by snowflakes all over the room. The failures back then were often the switching trannies rather than the caps. Great fun, but required spare underwear.
tannoyman
01-12-2012, 14:26
Hi Guys
I take the sonic superiority of CD and vinyl for granted and even if it were not so I would still favour physical media over the computerised alternatives. My reason is that computer audio just turns music into a completely disposable medium requiring no thought, emotional involvement and it dumbs down the hobby.
In my 50+ years as a music lover, much of the knowledge I have gleaned (such as it is!) has been garnered from the often superb sleeve notes from the back of LP's and CD's. These were not just space fillers but well written essays by eminent music critics such as W A Chislett, Felix Apprahamian, Robert Layton, Edward Greenfield and Sir Malcolm Sargent to name but a few. The music means much more when the listener understands the context of the time in which it was written and what was happening in the composers life as he put pen to paper. All that is lost with computer audio. It becomes another transient experience to be forgotten as soon as the sound dies away. There will be no legacy music, the formats will become obsolete and to the ordinary person the files will be unreadable as technology marches on relentlessly. :deceased:
Physical media are a delight to handle. I love looking at the sleeves as I listen to the music and the cover art is often superb and I love the process of collecting it - the joy in discovering a new treasure in the lanes of a car boot sale or charity shop coming home cleaning and finally playing it.
As an unashamed and confirmed 2 channel dinosaur hell will freeze over before I buy a download or adopt computer streaming.
I cannot imagine Marco posting in a few years time that he has just been to Oxfam or a car boot sale to pick up a few download or computer files. :lol::lol:
A guy I know asked if he could copy all of my CD collection onto his computer to which I replied - that would feel like condemning old friends to a life in a computerised dustbin
David :)
PS. I have asked my wife to turf the geraniums out of my tin hat in preparation for the onslaught arising from this post
isuckedmandelsonslemons
01-12-2012, 15:58
David, no onslaught from me. I agree with you 100%.
One of the biggest mistakes of my life was selling all of my LPs about 25 years ago. Not going to make the same mistake again with my CDs
I'm using this lemming like leap into computer audio to my advantage. I now buy dozens and dozens of CDs and never pay more than £3. Every day I look forward to the postman and then enjoy playing the CDs. I chuckled yesterday when I opened a packet with a Bonnie Raitt CD inside. Price sticker was still on - £16.49. I paid 1p plus postage.
tannoyman
01-12-2012, 16:16
[QUOTE=isuckedmandelsonslemons;388758]David, no onslaught from me. I agree with you 100%.
One of the biggest mistakes of my life was selling all of my LPs about 25 years ago. Not going to make the same mistake again with my CDs
Hi Harry
There are real vinyl bargains to be had as well. A pal of mine goes to auctions and buys records from house clearances for maybe £5 or £10 for a hundred or more so there's still time to make good your mistake
David;)
I'm with you 100%, David. On both downloading and 'multichannel' formats.
tannoyman
01-12-2012, 16:51
I'm with you 100%, David. On both downloading and 'multichannel' formats.
Heavens to Betsy, I am not alone. Thanks Martin;)
isuckedmandelsonslemons
01-12-2012, 17:07
See you've got two of the 'Usher posse' on your side already.
tannoyman
01-12-2012, 17:44
See you've got two of the 'Usher posse' on your side already.
Hi Harry
...and I shall take great solace (and pleasure) in that knowledge
kind regards
David;):cool:
tannoyman
02-12-2012, 09:11
As a service engineer back in the 1980s, we used to repair SMPS as they were too expensive to discard. I used to be known as SMPS king because I was brave enough to repair them and then power them up. Sometimes they would go up in a really quite impressive bang, accompanied by snowflakes all over the room. The failures back then were often the switching trannies rather than the caps. Great fun, but required spare underwear.
Hi Martin
Pre-coloured underwear I hope:lol:
David
Jonneville
06-12-2012, 13:47
Hi Guys
I take the sonic superiority of CD and vinyl for granted and even if it were not so I would still favour physical media over the computerised alternatives. My reason is that computer audio just turns music into a completely disposable medium requiring no thought, emotional involvement and it dumbs down the hobby.
In my 50+ years as a music lover, much of the knowledge I have gleaned (such as it is!) has been garnered from the often superb sleeve notes from the back of LP's and CD's. These were not just space fillers but well written essays by eminent music critics such as W A Chislett, Felix Apprahamian, Robert Layton, Edward Greenfield and Sir Malcolm Sargent to name but a few. The music means much more when the listener understands the context of the time in which it was written and what was happening in the composers life as he put pen to paper. All that is lost with computer audio. It becomes another transient experience to be forgotten as soon as the sound dies away. There will be no legacy music, the formats will become obsolete and to the ordinary person the files will be unreadable as technology marches on relentlessly. :deceased:
Physical media are a delight to handle. I love looking at the sleeves as I listen to the music and the cover art is often superb and I love the process of collecting it - the joy in discovering a new treasure in the lanes of a car boot sale or charity shop coming home cleaning and finally playing it.
As an unashamed and confirmed 2 channel dinosaur hell will freeze over before I buy a download or adopt computer streaming.
I cannot imagine Marco posting in a few years time that he has just been to Oxfam or a car boot sale to pick up a few download or computer files. :lol::lol:
A guy I know asked if he could copy all of my CD collection onto his computer to which I replied - that would feel like condemning old friends to a life in a computerised dustbin
David :)
PS. I have asked my wife to turf the geraniums out of my tin hat in preparation for the onslaught arising from this post
I'm with you on this too, David. I just typed out a long response then accidentally deleted it so this is the short version.
I dusted off my system (literally!) earlier this year and have spent most of 2012 sorting out a TT, finally deciding upon a modified Thorens TD 124 (I'm a die-hard hot rodder and racer so I can't leave anything stock).
At first I thought CDs were dead and downloads/streaming was the way to go but the more I read, the more I was not so sure. Call me cynical but I'd seen vinyl survive onslaughts from cassettes and CDs so I had a strong sense of deja vu. As before the evangelists were there, this time speaking in digital tongues about 'waves' and 'flacs' and then that word "convenience" reappeared - in the old days I always interpreted that as an excuse for mediocre SQ, so I became suspicious.
At the end of the day, all I want to do is enjoy my music. I couldn't care less about convenience - like you I enjoy the sense of occasion in handling the record or disc, reading the sleeve notes etc.
Anyway, I noticed that not everyone was convinced about streaming and that as with old TTs such as the Garrards and Thorens, certain CDPs have a strong cult following with support from many specialist companies. Now that appealed to me...
Eventually I decided upon a TEAC VRDS 25, (identical to the 25X but without the added digital input which I don't need). It's a quality CDP and I'm told that at a recent bake-off plugging in numerous external DACs made no improvement - it just sounded different. Best of all, like the TD 124 I have lots of options to hot rod it in the future but right now, (or rather next week when I collect it), I am just going to enjoy playing my CDs. I think that quality CDPs like these will be still be appreciated in many years to come, just like the Garrards and Thorens.
As for streaming, in the short term I'll probably just use Spotify to listen to music before deciding whether or not to buy it. As for long term, like Marco I want to wait and see what happens.
So to answer the original question, for me, the purpose of the standalone CDP is simply to enjoy my music.
Regards
Jon'.
tannoyman
06-12-2012, 14:36
I'm with you on this too, David. I just typed out a long response then accidentally deleted it so this is the short version.
I dusted off my system (literally!) earlier this year and have spent most of 2012 sorting out a TT, finally deciding upon a modified Thorens TD 124 (I'm a die-hard hot rodder and racer so I can't leave anything stock).
At first I thought CDs were dead and downloads/streaming was the way to go but the more I read, the more I was not so sure. Call me cynical but I'd seen vinyl survive onslaughts from cassettes and CDs so I had a strong sense of deja vu. As before the evangelists were there, this time speaking in digital tongues about 'waves' and 'flacs' and then that word "convenience" reappeared - in the old days I always interpreted that as an excuse for mediocre SQ, so I became suspicious.
At the end of the day, all I want to do is enjoy my music. I couldn't care less about convenience - like you I enjoy the sense of occasion in handling the record or disc, reading the sleeve notes etc.
Anyway, I noticed that not everyone was convinced about streaming and that as with old TTs such as the Garrards and Thorens, certain CDPs have a strong cult following with support from many specialist companies. Now that appealed to me...
Eventually I decided upon a TEAC VRDS 25, (identical to the 25X but without the added digital input which I don't need). It's a quality CDP and I'm told that at a recent bake-off plugging in numerous external DACs made no improvement - it just sounded different. Best of all, like the TD 124 I have lots of options to hot rod it in the future but right now, (or rather next week when I collect it), I am just going to enjoy playing my CDs. I think that quality CDPs like these will be still be appreciated in many years to come, just like the Garrards and Thorens.
As for streaming, in the short term I'll probably just use Spotify to listen to music before deciding whether or not to buy it. As for long term, like Marco I want to wait and see what happens.
So to answer the original question, for me, the purpose of the standalone CDP is simply to enjoy my music.
Regards
Jon'.
Hi Jon
I totally agree.
Computer audio as you say is not about music but convenience. It's hardly surprising that it sounds poor. The components inside computers are purchased sold by the pound with no reference whatsoever to their sound quality. One point to end on, could it be said that convenience for everyone is public convenience.
David :):)
Nought wrong with computer audio; if you do not like fair enough but saying it sounds rubbish can you please add IMO.
I honestly hope CDs stay as I still have loads of CDs.
I am neither for or against any format but can I ensure you my choice is not based on convenience.
Jonneville
06-12-2012, 15:26
Nought wrong with computer audio; if you do not like fair enough but saying it sounds rubbish can you please add IMO.
I honestly hope CDs stay as I still have loads of CDs.
I am neither for or against any format but can I ensure you my choice is not based on convenience.
John - Not sure if that was directed at me but I was very careful to say "in the old days". Right now I have my hands full with the TT and CDP so I'm biding my time with computer audio and looking forward to rediscovering my music.
Regards
Jon'.
tannoyman
06-12-2012, 15:28
Nought wrong with computer audio; if you do not like fair enough but saying it sounds rubbish can you please add IMO.
I honestly hope CDs stay as I still have loads of CDs.
I am neither for or against any format but can I ensure you my choice is not based on convenience.
Hi John
If that's your view who am I to argue. As my old uncle used to say "you should never give a man a better bottle of wine than he can appreciate"
David :);)
I love it when people make applied comments about other peoples system without hearing the system or knowing what they are appreciating
Ali Tait
06-12-2012, 16:23
Hi John
If that's your view who am I to argue. As my old uncle used to say "you should never give a man a better bottle of wine than he can appreciate"
David :);)
That's rather condescending is it not? As John says, how can you pass comment when you've never heard his system.
tannoyman
06-12-2012, 17:02
That's rather condescending is it not? As John says, how can you pass comment when you've never heard his system.
Firstly my apologies for not using your name but you do not give it.
You misquote me. For the record my comments were general ones based on the many occassions I have listened to computer based systems. I made no specific reference to John's system and for all I know it may be the exception to the rule and sound superb. As far as I am concerned if he loves it that is all that matters. My earlier post from a few days ago sets out my position on this clearly and concisely and I stand by it.
It was not my intention to offend anyone and if I have I apologise. We are all entitled to make our own judgements and choices. However from where I sit computer audio trivialises serious music and it represents the death throws of hi-fi and quality audio as I know and love it. It completely circumvents many of the most interesting and enjoyable aspects of the hobby. For me it is simply another second rate disposable medium in a disposable age.
David (dinosaur) :peace:
Ali Tait
06-12-2012, 17:12
My name is Alasdair, hence Ali.
tannoyman
06-12-2012, 17:16
My name is Alasdair, hence Ali.
Hi Ali
Thanks for that. I wouldn't have known that because many people do not use their real names.
David :)
David I often travel close to Northampton if you wish to hear what a computer based system can do please let me know and I make a detour. Perhaps you hate it who knows
tannoyman
06-12-2012, 17:44
David I often travel close to Northampton if you wish to hear what a computer based system can do please let me know and I make a detour. Perhaps you hate it who knows
Hi John
Let's do that.
Kind regards
David :)
Reid Malenfant
06-12-2012, 20:28
If anyone had said to me that I'd be streaming audio this time last year I'd have laughed at them ;)
While I'm not using a computer, I'm still streaming audio from a 2TB HDD feeding an Oppo BD95 player, it sounds very good indeed :) Best money I think I may well have ever spent on my system.
I still use a Krell DT10 transport feeding dCS upsampler & DAC to spin CDs.
It's just the streaming bit has totally different music available :cool:
I like the best of both worlds :D
Ali Tait
06-12-2012, 22:56
Aye, have to agree.
Floyddroid
08-12-2012, 21:34
Got a pretty good PC and i think it is ok for ripping stuff but it can't replay them as good as my CDP. Engineering conquers all.:lol:
i've been streaming for a number of years now using my G5 tower. these days however, i suspect my set up isn't as advanced as other streamers on AOS who have built there own dedicated computers and i think they now enjoy a whole new level of performance. but thats' the good thing about computer audio - it's very much a 'work in progress'. i recently bought a late 80's Phillips CD player for tuppence on fleabay and i was staggered at how good it was, so i think there's still a place for the standalone concept. enjoy the CD format, you can buy most stuff for peanuts these days and either play them as they are or rip them to your computer.
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