View Full Version : KEF Reference
Has anyone ever owned or heard these? I'm interested in KEF Reference 1,2,3 or 4's.
I understand that they are great with classical but I'm more of a Led Zep, King Crimson type.
I'd also want to use them with valves.
Any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.
Steve ;)
The Grand Wazoo
11-11-2012, 13:26
I think you'd be needing some pretty beefy valve amp as I understand they're quite demanding in respect of what drives them.
I had a pair of the Reference 2.2, which i loved before upgrading to my current Tannoy Turnberry se. Although they had a 90db sensitivity, they are difficult to drive because of a minimum impedance of 3.2 ohms, so ideally they need something beefy to drive them, but mine sang surprisingly well on the end of an Unison research s6 integrated, 30w single-ended. But, i don't listen to loud heavy rock at unsociable levels, so that was fine for me.
My power amp only has a 5ohm tap and VTL rate it at 85 watts. As the KEF's are a 4ohm load I thought it might drive them ok.
They would be in place of my Monitor Audio's so would be interested how the presentation would change.
The MA's have quite a clear treble and midrange but the bass can be a little lacking sometimes.
I don't play much more than about 9 on the pre in a 15' x 12' room plus square bay.
The KEF's seem to be good on bass but I'm not sure as to what gains I'd achieve.
I think the Reference 2's were about the same price as the MA's at the time (£2,300?).:scratch:
Steve
I think the Reference 2's were about the same price as the MA's at the time (£2,300?).:scratch:
Steve
£1600 in 1999
£1600 in 1999
For the Reference 2's?
For the Reference 2's?
Yup - according to the buying guide in the May 1999 edition of Hi-Fi Choice.
Yup - according to the buying guide in the May 1999 edition of Hi-Fi Choice.
Interesting, I bought my MA's in 1999 for circa £1,500 as they were being replaced by new models. Their retail price was £2,300.
It doesn't sound as if there's going to be any upgrade going from the MA's to the KEF 2's.
Might be best to go back to the original plan and explore old Tannoys.
Thanks for that,
Steve
My power amp only has a 5ohm tap and VTL rate it at 85 watts. As the KEF's are a 4ohm load I thought it might drive them ok.
They would be in place of my Monitor Audio's so would be interested how the presentation would change.
The MA's have quite a clear treble and midrange but the bass can be a little lacking sometimes.
I don't play much more than about 9 on the pre in a 15' x 12' room plus square bay.
The KEF's seem to be good on bass but I'm not sure as to what gains I'd achieve.
I think the Reference 2's were about the same price as the MA's at the time (£2,300?).:scratch:
Steve
It's hard to say how your Vtl would cope, but i would think it should be ok, providing you don't want sledgehammer bass. The Kef 2.2 has good bass due to two internal bass drivers, and are very smooth, but detailed, with superb imaging provided by the point-source uni-q driver. I have not heard the MA speakers, but i remember what hi-fi liked them!
The Grand Wazoo
11-11-2012, 15:47
I think it would be a mistake to take the new selling prices as evidence for whether it will sound better or worse.
This series didn't look that nice IMO, with the curvy grilles giving a top-heavy look, but the sound was always really good IMO. Modern ss amps of the quality needed for a range of speakers going from a grand to several should be able to drive the loads with ease. It's only now, where used costs may be low, that buyers may want to use them with something that wouldn't have been considered in a million years at the time...
I'm confused with model names, but the ones to avoid were the early 90's ones with the tweeter perched on top, since these could take one's fillings out at modest levels I remember...
Hi Chris,
I think it would be a mistake to take the new selling prices as evidence for whether it will sound better or worse.
You're absolutely right especially with hifi that seems to have an unusual pricing approach.
My comment was more thinking aloud. Both speakers would have been competing in the same market at the time. I'm going to prefer one over the other but whether it's marked is a big question. There's no point in trying them if the difference is small.
After having my current speakers for 13/14 years I might be better off trying something that would have been in the next price bracket on the basis that it should logically have more chance of knocking my socks off.
David, I actually like the look of the Reference 2/3's and most importantly my wife thinks they are acceptable. She also likes the MA's but wasn't so happy with a pair of Tannoy Cheviots I looked at (or Martin Logans).
Thanks for all the comments, they're really useful.
I'd avoid MA these days since despite the looks, I don't think they're competitive - IMO...
Cheviots can look good if placed back to a wall (how they seemed to be used back in the day) and they always sounded better in client's homes than in the dem room (I know, I've said this before). They WILL need work on the crossovers as well as the drivers though, to better integrate the tweeter with the bass unit for modern sources of all types...
I have had a pair of Kef 102s and have had them for ... must be around 20 years now. Only recently I have looked at updating them but got a little scared at the price I would have to pay to make a significant difference.
They are not these but the same model and look http://www.ebay.com/itm/nice-KEF-102-reference-speakers-with-cube-B-W-Linn-/230869703175?nma=true&si=HfF%2Ba8jUGm7FnS6jnVqrtwJkAX8%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Only grip I have with them, and always have is the Kube which is the powered external cross over. You must use them with the model I have, if memory serves me well only the 107s made the kube optional but they were silly money 5 or 7 k then. Without the kube mine sound awful and its a bit worrying when they finally die.
I used to run them with an arcam 9 integrated but now with one of the new audio lab 8200P. Both were fairy meaty amps so I never had any issues.
One nice thing I remember about mine when I bought them is the BBC used to use them as monitors as they thought they had a very uncoloured clarity.
I understand some suffer from rotting foam inside now days due to the age. I cant tell you if mine do as I have not opened them and have not noticed any issue but then I guess it would be so gradual it would be hard to detect if you own them.
On balance they have served me very well and are quiet bullet proof with great sound and by far the best value Hi Fi purchase I have ever made
Harry Hill
15-11-2012, 09:30
A friend of mine has just upgraded his speakers so now has a set of Kef 3.2 refrence for sale, only drawback is he is in Bristol and these things are pretty big and heavy.:cool:
Hi, I had a refrance 1 and to be honest it was the worst mistake i ever made and did not stay long. Replaced my Epos es 14 and the Kefs were noware near as good. My own fault brought blind you see. Poorly intergrated bass and hard shrill trebble and shouting mids.
I listen to all sorts mostlt rock and electra and they were shocking soon replace by some LV's. This was back in 2000. I have had a few changes since then and still the Kef 1 was the worst speaker I have ever had
Aw, they weren't that bad and could actually show up the crude (by then) ES14 tweeter, which Robin wasn't able to develop further.
The models up from the R1 were really good I thought and rocked with ease...
Hi, I had a refrance 1 and to be honest it was the worst mistake i ever made and did not stay long. Replaced my Epos es 14 and the Kefs were noware near as good. My own fault brought blind you see. Poorly intergrated bass and hard shrill trebble and shouting mids.
I listen to all sorts mostlt rock and electra and they were shocking soon replace by some LV's. This was back in 2000. I have had a few changes since then and still the Kef 1 was the worst speaker I have ever had
They are not an easy load and it sounds to me like whatever amplification you were using was struggling. The KEF sound is not to everyone's taste but they never made anything I've heard that sounded as bad as you describe.
jollyfix
15-11-2012, 21:30
I still use the Kef reference 1's in one of my systems, for me they work fine with the room size, which is a big factor. I use with a MF X 150 AMP, they are positioned close to a wall (not the best place for them according to the positioning guide). I play all sorts of music, and have found them to be most satisfactory, i bought them cheap a few years ago, each to their own, but i have found them to be fine for a cheap second hand speaker.
They are not an easy load and it sounds to me like whatever amplification you were using was struggling. The KEF sound is not to everyone's taste but they never made anything I've heard that sounded as bad as you describe.
I was using cyrus mono's at the time more than enough power I think. I just did not like them simple as that.
They do seem to divide opinions!
I think I may be going against the grain thinking about pairing them with valves but the VTL is designed for 4-6ohm speakers and should provide enough grunt.
I'm interested in these because my wife thinks they are pretty and as they are supposed to sound very good fulfils both side's requirements.
Anyway the fun is if you like them you can tell evryone and if you don't......:ner:
Any more snippets/pearls much appreciated.
Dave I've sent you a PM.
Cheers,
Steve
agreed power , power power , its what they need
They are not an easy load and it sounds to me like whatever amplification you were using was struggling. The KEF sound is not to everyone's taste but they never made anything I've heard that sounded as bad as you describe.
jollyfix
15-11-2012, 21:54
I also agree with David regards the look of these speakers with the top -heavy look.
Think there may be a wee bit of confusion with the reference series as there a lot of different ranges around the 80s and the 90s. http://www.kef.com/html/en/explore/about_kef/museum/1980s/index.html I remember the uni q versions coming out and they were not so well received.
Lee - The only way I can get mine to sound awful is to not use the Kube box, its not optional its critical as it has the cross over network contained. Although if you bought them new in 2000 they would not be from one of the earlier reference ranges but if you bought it second hand did it come with a powered black box that sits in a tape loop or between a pre and power amp?
When I bought mine I tested them back to back with a set of linn kans, clearly Kefs won!
tested against linn , sorry . imho i can sing sound better than them
Think there may be a wee bit of confusion with the reference series as there a lot of different ranges around the 80s and the 90s. http://www.kef.com/html/en/explore/about_kef/museum/1980s/index.html I remember the uni q versions coming out and they were not so well received.
Lee - The only way I can get mine to sound awful is to not use the Kube box, its not optional its critical as it has the cross over network contained. Although if you bought them new in 2000 they would not be from one of the earlier reference ranges but if you bought it second hand did it come with a powered black box that sits in a tape loop or between a pre and power amp?
When I bought mine I tested them back to back with a set of linn kans, clearly Kefs won!
Sometimes the only way to find out is try yourself.
Today I purchased a lovely and huge set of Reference 3.2's.
If you listen on axis they sound shrill. If you point them down the room with very little toe in they sound well balanced.
There's good stage depth, deep deep bass, massive dynamics and loads of detail.
They work beautifully with my valve amps with plenty of grunt.
Yes I've only listened to them for an hour and a half but I'm becoming smitten. They look alluring as well!
Cheers:cool:
Steve
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