Budget SUT for Denon 103

[Jonneville]

I am currently putting together a Thorens TD 124 Mk2 with a 12" Jelco 750 LB (plus the heavier counterweight and one of Shuggie's collars), with a Midas-potted Denon 103 (.36 mv output each channel). Preamp is a valve VTL De Luxe with the MM stage, bought about 20 years ago. Power is from a pair of VTL 225W monoblocks (EL 34s) driving Martin Logan Sequel IIs, so you can see what type of warm, natural and open sound I like.

I thought that selecting the step up transformer would be the easy part - bearing in mind that there's supposed to be no such thing as a bad SUT - but despite (or perhaps that should be because of) scouring this forum and others, I am more undecided than ever!

I started off looking at the Silvercore One to Ten and the Cinemag and Sowter offerings from Bob's Devices, but Bob's become a bit expensive here in the UK once you factor in the import duty and shipping. At less than half the price, the Cinemag Choir Audio SUT-1 looks like terrific value.

Others on the list are the Rothwell MCL and MC1, Puresound T10, Icon MC TX and Analog Tube Audio MC1. There's also the possibility of a used K&K Audio Premium for a good price too!

The Choir Audio SUT-1 is probably the front runner right now but I haven't dismissed a Denon 300LC. Then again, maybe I should just push the boat out and go for an Albarry MCA 11 or Auditorium A23...?

I know this subject has come up many times before but any views would be much appreciated!

Regards

Jon'.

[Mika K]

I used my friends Silvercore One to Ten with my Zu DL-103 for a while and it was a really good match. A safe bet for that price so to speak.

[Marco]

Hi Jon,

With over 25 years of experience of using and matching DL-103s with various head amps/step-up devices (not to mention being an ex-Jelco owner), I think that I can offer you some good advice.

The word "budget" in your thread title throws things somewhat, as if it's a genuine budget SUT you're looking for, which will bring the 103 to life, there is only one real option: the Denon 300LC. However, I guess that the term "budget" is somewhat subjective, which is why you're entertaining the notion of buying an Albarry or A23 :)

Experience tells me that the best step-up devices to use with a Denon DL-103 are those made by Denon (as both items will have been 'voiced' together, from the ground up, by the manufacturer), and so synergy is more likely to be achieved that way, than by using products from an 'alien' manufacturer.

With SUTs, outside of ensuring that the electrical characteristics are correct for the chosen cartridge, the most important consideration is matching the sonic signature of the transformers with that of the cartridge itself, which is why SUT units from Denon tend to sound best with their own cartridges, as the manufacturer will have been able to select the correct transformers for a given application.

The above also applies with the A23, as the designer (Keith Aschenbrenner) followed Denon's approach and, after listening to numerous transformers, decided on selecting specific ones (widely reputed to be items from Haufe, in Germany) for use in the A23. Having used both the 300LC and the A23, with numerous 103s, ranging from the basic model through to the 103Pro and 'SA', I can tell you that there is no contest, so if you have the funds, then the A23 is a no-brainer.

However, there is another consideration, and that is the different sonic presentation offered by a good active (generally battery-operated) MC 'head amp', which is where the Albarry MCA 11 comes in... I've been lucky enough to have been playing with this superb little device for a few weeks, and can tell you that it is utterly stunning and amazing value for money!

GOOD head amps, being transistor based, offer a different (and equally valid) 'take' on music, than GOOD SUTs. The former tend to have more leading edge attack, superior dynamic headroom, arguably greater clarity, and offer more overall 'grip' on the music signal, whereas the latter offer a more spacious and fluid, lyrical presentation with greater vocal and instrumental texture, unravelling harmonic detail and spatial effects more faithfully in the musical mix.

It's a little like comparing how both GOOD transistor and valve amplifiers reproduce music. Head amps, such as the Albarry, are generally representative of the former, and SUTs, the latter. However, if you usually prefer valves, I can say that through using the Albarry, it has the most 'valve-like' sound I've ever heard from a head amp, and is completely devoid of the usual grey/grainy 'flat' sound of the worst transistor designs.

If the sound of your system veers towards the warm side of neutral, and given that the DL-103 is not a lean sounding cartridge, the Albarry could be just the ticket, providing you with (particularly when used in conjunction with a valve MM phono stage) the best of both worlds, and give you many hours of grin-inducing sounds! :exactly:

If you can describe the sound of your system, and what your musical priorities are in more detail (and generally the type of sound you favour), then I'll offer you my advice on which one to go for :)

Marco.

[walpurgis]

I used a DL-103 through a Fidelity Research FRT-3 SUT for a few years. It was a very good match. These crop up on eBay periodically and are well worth grabbing, as they are a fine sounding unit that suit a variety of MCs.

I did use it through my own VTL Deluxe pre-amplifier, similar to yours and I got a very fine sound. That's an outstanding phono stage on the VTL by the way.

[Moko]

If its budget you want I built my own step up for my 103 using a set of Beyerdynamics 370 215 006 transformers which can be had pretty cheaply off Ebay (there's some on at the moment if you search)

Then its just a job of finding a suitable box from Maplins, a set of 4 RCA sockets and a grounding post and away you go. There's no mains voltages or anything dangerous to worry about & soldering the various bits together is very easy even for a complete electrical novice like myself.

My build is documented here http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=9514.15

I think all in the costs were £50 transformers (you can get Partridge ones for about £90 on Ebay) a case £10 and RCA's £6 , grounding post £1.50 so in total about £70 so very cheap for some amazing sounding performance.

There's also this thread about building your own SUT http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18314

So go on and build your own for a much better result than a head amp and much cheaper too:)

[jagdesign]

Hi Jon, shameless plug but I'm selling this:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21503

which is supposed the match particularly well with the 103.

[Jonneville]

Thank you everyone for your help, particularly Marco. I have spent some time going over the various posts again and convinced myself that it is the Auditorium A23 that I am looking for, anything else and I just know I'll be itching to upgrade it before long! What Marco said here convinced me:"a more spacious and fluid, lyrical presentation with greater vocal and instrumental texture, unravelling harmonic detail and spatial effects more faithfully in the musical mix". I thought that the A23 was more expensive than it actually is. Plan is to call James Alney at The Sound Practice tomorrow, before I change my mind!

Hopefully James can also recommend a good cable for the SUT/preamp connection, unless the A23 already comes with one.

Talking of cables, I also need a recommendation for the Jelco 750LB?

Whilst I'm at it, I was planning on using the stock Jelco headshell with the Midas 103, or is it worth upgrading that too, or maybe just upgrading the headshell leads? Maybe a Jelco HS-25 headshell (adjustable horizontally)?

(I was really after a Schick arm for the TD124 but shied away from that after reading that it didn't work too well on the armboard of Art Dudley's Thorens, ending up mounted seperately. I have one of Jim Campbell's Schopper-style CLD plinths so the arm needs to be mounted on the armboard - I'm just about to order an undrilled 12" one from Schopper).

Lots of questions I know but thanks again.

Regards

Jon'.

[Riislingen]

+1 on Marcos notes !

I can vouch 100% for the AU23, as I´m using it. I´ve tried both active stepping up as well as a Partridge SUT before this.

To use the words of Marco: "There´s really no contest.." - my mind blew when I heard the dl-103 through this thing. :eyebrows:

[Jonneville]

That's great to hear, Mikkel. For some reason I thought that the A23 was much, much more expensive but at around only £450 there really is no contest - think I must have thought that the price in dollars was in pounds!

I have ordered an A23 from The Sound Practice so now I just need to sort out the cables. I'll start a seperate thread for those.

Regards

Jon'.

[Riislingen]

That's great to hear, Mikkel. For some reason I thought that the A23 was much, much more expensive but at around only £450 there really is no contest - think I must have thought that the price in dollars was in pounds!

I have ordered an A23 from The Sound Practice so now I just need to sort out the cables. I'll start a seperate thread for those.

Regards

Jon'.

Outstanding move !

You´ll be very happy with this choice I´m sure. As for cable, the AU23 one springs to mind or as praised elsewhere here, the Yannis Silver Litz.

I´m using the AU23 with the SUT and Denon and just orderend a Yannis to go with my 2nd turntable.

[Marco]

Hi Jon,


That's great to hear, Mikkel. For some reason I thought that the A23 was much, much more expensive but at around only £450 there really is no contest - think I must have thought that the price in dollars was in pounds!


Indeed. There are more expensive products on the market that are far less effective.


I have ordered an A23 from The Sound Practice so now I just need to sort out the cables. I'll start a seperate thread for those.


Nice one. James is a good guy. As for cables, I'd thoroughly recommend those from Jannis Tome, which a few of us here have been using with considerable success:

http://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/intro.html

The 223.5 Connect Litz is superb and will be ideal for using between your SUT and phono stage: http://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/223_5connect-litz.html :cool:

Marco.

[Riislingen]

Hi Jon,

<snipped>

The 223.5 Connect Litz is superb and will be ideal for using between your SUT and phono stage: http://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/223_5connect-litz.html :cool:

Marco.

I ordered one of those for the TD-124 - can´t wait to see what all the fuss is about..

[Jonneville]

Thanks for your advice, Marco.

Slight change of plan...the Jelco 750 LB arrived and to be honest, I was not too impressed with it. Compared with the Rega R200 on my 30+ year old Planar 2, it felt like a toy. I know they are rated but it just seemed rather flimsy to me, albeit that I'm used to components built like tanks, such as my VTL monoblocks and TD 124 - I guess if I don't risk a slipped disc lifting it, I'm not really interested.

So...I spent a few days thrashing around, considering a Peter Riggle Woody, SME 3012 (with all the updates like bronze edge bearing etc), an Ortofon or two, upgrading the Rega to 12" with help from Speedy Steve and of course the slick, Schick stick.

Truth be told, I'd always liked the Schick from the start but was put off by Art Dudley's problems with hum, necessitating mounting it on a seperate plinth. I have a Schopper-style CLD plinth made by Jim Campbell, so that type of mounting was not an option. I'd seen this photo on Thomas's site...

http://www.thomas-schick.com/arm/L1010654.jpg

...so decided that hopefully Art's problem was unique to his TT, especially if this set up was effectively being endorsed by Thomas.

So, with this in mind the next problem was where on earth do I find a Schick without waiting 6-9 months? Then I remembered a trick from my old military watch hunting days - German eBay. If the Schick is German then the most likely place to find one was German eBay. I looked on it last night and "Hey Presto!", one had just been listed. A quick deal was done and it's on its way to me as we speak.

Once everything arrives the TT will be a Thorens TD 124 MK2 (with every upgrade apart from the expensive Schopper/Swissonor non-magnetic platter - yet!), Jim Campbell CLD plinth, Schopper 12" arm board, Schick stick, Denon 103 with matching L/R output, Midas pot, Yamamoto ebony headshell and Auditorium A23. This will be playing into a VTL De Luxe valve preamp, a pair of VTL 225W EL 34 monoblocks and bi-wired Martin Logan Sequel IIs.

I will go for the Yannis TT cables recommended by Marco but if anyone has suggestions for the headshell leads they would be appreciated, as I gather that the Yamamoto ones are very stiff and make it difficult to set up the cartridge?

Regards

Jon'.

P.S. Recently I also bought a Leema CD player at a bargain price - less than half retail - but decided to ditch that too. I don't have that many CDs so sense prevailed and I'm simply going to stick to my ADS CD4 (20 years old but very "musical"). In the end, the Schick will cost less than the Jelco and Leema, plus I should finally be content...for now!

P.P.S. I have a spare black Jelco collar from Shuggie if anyone needs one but I'm in no rush to sell it as it is so beautifully made.

[Jonneville]

Hi Jon,

Nice one. James is a good guy. As for cables, I'd thoroughly recommend those from Jannis Tome, which a few of us here have been using with considerable success:

http://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/intro.html

The 223.5 Connect Litz is superb and will be ideal for using between your SUT and phono stage: http://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/223_5connect-litz.html :cool:

Marco.

Just a quick query, Marco, presumably I should order a cable with a ground lead so that I can earth the SUT to the ground terminal on the preamp? (I've read about people having mixed results with this).

Regards

Jon'.

[Marco]

Hi Jonathan,

Yup, definitely go for the ground lead, as it totally nullifies any residual hum from the T/T, when an SUT is in use.

Btw, regarding headshell leads, if it's not too late, I have a near brand new set of these VDH Headshell Links, as shown here, which are excellent (very flexible and super-high quality):

http://www.vandenhul.com/p_IK02.aspx

PM me, if you're interested, and I'll give you a good deal! :)

Marco.

[Jonneville]

Thanks Marco - PM sent.

Regards

Jon'.

[ninedecks]

Looking at the photo you have posted, the headshell is the HS1AS which is supplied with non removable leads - I have one and although the thick copper is a pain, it looks neat when connected.
If you want the headshell without leads, go for the HS1A.
As an alternative to the 12" armboard from Schopper I used a 12mm armboard made from British Bog Oak, sound wise I find this to be a good isolator but cannot make any comparisons with the Schopper as I havn't heard one in situ.
David

[Jonneville]

Looking at the photo you have posted, the headshell is the HS1AS which is supplied with non removable leads - I have one and although the thick copper is a pain, it looks neat when connected.
If you want the headshell without leads, go for the HS1A.
As an alternative to the 12" armboard from Schopper I used a 12mm armboard made from British Bog Oak, sound wise I find this to be a good isolator but cannot make any comparisons with the Schopper as I havn't heard one in situ.
David

Thanks David. I didn't realise the difference when I ordered the headshell from Japan but I have the HS1A, which hopefully should sound superb with the Van den Hul leads from Marco - 300 solid core Matched Crystal Silver wire with 24 carat gold plated connecting clips. Quite a few people on the Lenco forum seem to have gone this route as I gather that those thick copper leads can be difficult, as you say.

By the way, which arm and cartridge are you using?

Regards

Jon'.

[ninedecks]

I use an early split weight series 11 SME 3012.
Currently a Shure V15 Vhe in the Yamamoto and a Denon DL103 in an early Ortofon SPU Bakelite headshell for extra mass. I have a fluid damper on the SME.
Both sound more than just 'acceptable' they produce a sound that is satisfying to the ears and - with the right music - to the soul.