Heeeeeeeeeeeeeelp'

[Rare Bird]

I'm sick to death, i cannot afford a real vintage turntable such as a Garrard '3/401' or Thorens 'TD124', cannot get cheaper vintage turntable how i want them :steam: I desperatly want to throw the towel in with records but i can not live with CDees i cannot take them seriously in the same way i cannot live with a modern piece of equipment ... :steam: :steam: :steam:

Ive tried for a few days to refrain from music completely but can't, tried to switch off & move onto old past times i used to have, no luck.. :doh:

Anyone else like this..

[Audio Al]

Andre

We all want the cream of the crop , but in reality 95% of us have to settle for less

I enjoy my listening on a standard 1200 MK11 and some very basic amp and speakers

I enjoy my vinyl time and very rarely ever listen to anything else now

Boot sale records 50p each or mega cheap job lots

Its great , accept it for what it is , unless you are a lotto winner ( and yes more than £10 :D )

Stick with it and have a good listening session :)

[DSJR]

What are you like sir!!!!!!! :)

Calm down fella and enjoy whatever vintage deck you can, accepting the fact that they're forty years old and no longer anything like new.

PM sent..

[The Grand Wazoo]

What's wrong with the new secret weapon Andre?
Why didn't it work out?

[Marco]

Sorry to hear this, dude. Did the Philips T/T you won recently not hit the spot? It looked lurvely.....

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

Sorry Dave but i cannot. i packed everything away today. I Just set up a cheap CDP & DAC but i can't see me entertaining it for more than a day, i had ten mins of it & turned off.. so i guess it's saving like mad for a year till i can get together the stoopid asking prices they want.


What's wrong with the new secret weapon Andre?
Why didn't it work out?



Sorry to hear this, dude. Did the Philips T/T you won recently not hit the spot? It looked lurvely.....

Marco.

Yeh it was great the motors knackered. :steam: :steam: :steam:

[John]

How the Lenco going Andre with the repairs
The Lenco will not quite have the drive of the Garrads but should give decent sounds when fully kitted out

[Marco]

Yeh it was great the motors knackered. :steam: :steam: :steam:

Nightmare, dude. Did the seller advertise that fact or not?

Marco.

[walpurgis]

Jerry (jandl100) is seemingly flogging his Pioneer PL-71 at a reasonable price. Have you considered it? They are a nice TT.

[Rare Bird]

No thanks i want one of two decks Garrard '301'/'401' or Thorens 'TD124' nothing else will do..So i recon it's saving up for a long time..

[wee tam]

there are a few half decent TTs out there if you can settle for less , jerrys' indeed , my AR the legend with AT arm came in at less than £150 , so a bit of patirnce pays off , in fact if you don't mind boring black , these go for considerably less

[sparrow]

I know where your coming from Andre...when one gets something into ones head it is well nigh impossible to get it out. Save your dosh Andre and sell (me) some of your rare CD's.;)

[Spur07]

andre, i guess if you really want a garrad or thorens and nothing will shake you on that then you already know the answer to this because one way or another you'll eventually end up with one of those TT's. don't settle for anything else no matter how cheap you can find it, just start saving for what you really want.

i was like this with my Quad II amps, i thought i could live without having some, i kept resisting the urge, i kept telling myself i didn't really need them, but i was just putting off the inevitable.

[Floyddroid]

To be very honest, having listened to Brain Salad Surgery on a 401 a few months ago i think there is better and cheaper alternatives in the vintage arena. Indeed my newly acquired Technics SL 1500 with stock arm sounded pretty damned good in comparison. I have mixed views about the Garrards especially the price they fetch compared to some rare gems at a fraction of the price that frankly p..s all over them.

[chelsea]

To be very honest, having listened to Brain Salad Surgery on a 401 a few months ago i think there is better and cheaper alternatives in the vintage arena. Indeed my newly acquired Technics SL 1500 with stock arm sounded pretty damned good in comparison. I have mixed views about the Garrards especially the price they fetch compared to some rare gems at a fraction of the price that frankly p..s all over them.

Any chance of a listing some of them?

[steveledzep]

Have a look at the Michell Focus One. I bought one for my daughter, gave my Roksan Xerxes a run for its money ! I've noticed prices rising quite considerably of late on the famous auction site.

[jandl100]

I know where your coming from Andre...

I don't. I haven't got a clue what he's on about. :scratch:

There's loads of great sounding decks out there for not much money.

Why obsess about what you cannot afford? :scratch:

It seems really sad to me. :(

Sorry if I seem unsympathetic and unsupportive - but you need to get real, Andre.

[StanleyB]

To be very honest, having listened to Brain Salad Surgery on a 401 a few months ago i think there is better and cheaper alternatives in the vintage arena. Indeed my newly acquired Technics SL 1500 with stock arm sounded pretty damned good in comparison. I have mixed views about the Garrards especially the price they fetch compared to some rare gems at a fraction of the price that frankly p..s all over them.
I concur. But just like the LP12, if you plant the idea in people's head that it is one of the greatest sounding turntable, then slowly that impression will start to stick.
Having had a chance to listen and play with hundreds of turntables during my period working for a number of HIFI retailers I can say without a doubt that the 401 would not be in my list of the top 20 decks. It wouldn't even find a space in my shed.

[jandl100]

Well, suitably fettled, a vintage Garrard can sound very very good, imo.

This was probably my fave of the Scalford Show this year. To my ears, it booted a fine £10k CDP in the same system into the long grass! :eyebrows:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF7579.jpg

:oops: - this is probably not helping Andre's obsession!

[Spur07]

would a Lenco not get him somewhere close, after a little bit of work? I'm certainly no expert.

i found an L75 last year for £15, can't get much cheaper than that.

[Reffc]

I think that Jerry has a point. I don't mean that you need a fettled 401 (which boots £10K CDPs into the weeds ;) ) but that there are loads of cheaper alternatives out there that do a decent job.

For my own tuppenceworth, I think that the 301 and the 401 were well designed but (particularly in the case of the 401) there were more solidly made decks around (it didn't have the best build quality in some areas, although there's plenty of fully functional 40 yr old unfettled 401's still in service today!).

A very cheap but very under rated alternative is something like the Thorens TD160. Well built, simple and properly isolated and set up, sounds great. I saw one on Ebay recently go for £80 including a linn Basic arm and MM cartridge.

My favourite vintage deck has to be the TD124, but the prices are now less related to performance and more to "collectability" sadly. For an equivalent price of a restored, re-plinthed TD124 with a decent arm fitted, you are into super-deck territory, at least Michel Orbe or VPI scout pricing (used) and that buys a heck of a lot of performance and quality.

If you must have a vintage deck because it is de-rigour then the sensible bet is a more modest one like the 160, but of course if you are lucky and find a good 301/401/TD124 for sensible money, then it could be a decent investment bar anything else (one of the reasons that their prices rise is that they are treated this way like all collectables).

[StanleyB]

Well, suitably fettled, a vintage Garrard can sound very very good, imo.
The same can be said for say the 1200/1210...
For the same price you can get a L07D, to name just one, to sound superior from stock. Even my DDX-1000 would give it a good run for the money. If you use the same kind of care and attention with the selection and construction of a plinth then the SP10 would wipe the floor with a 401 and still have enough space left for a 301 thrown in the ring as support act..

[Floyddroid]

:eyebrows:Someone elsewhere on the forum is selling a Pioneer PL-71 which is a snadger of a TT as are some of the DD Denon's. Yes Stu, you can listen to them. get yer ass to my place in the new year and i will let you listen to my Technics SL1500. It really is swings and roundabouts. I mainly listen to music on my Notts and the only reason i bought the Technics (from Dave, AOS tt guru) was to listen to my aged collection of singles both 7" and 12". However, it is not shabby at all. It is what ever floats your boat. Mr Bird enjoys listening to ELP as do i. my experience is that when i have listened to all of ELP's back catalogue on a 401 i was underwhelmed considering the extortionate price that my friend paid for it. He has since sold it and bought a heavily engineered Denon which left him with money left over to help fund the purchase of a new amp.
I honestly think that the Garrards are very good indeed at doing some things and once fettled by someone who knows what they are doing sound great. I do feel that the law of diminishing returns kicks in early with these aging devices though and don't subscribe to some induced trends.

[jandl100]

I don't mean that you need a fettled 401 (which boots £10K CDPs into the weeds ;) ) .

:lol:
Ah, but you should have heard it, Paul! :drool:
It sounded (and looked!) absolutely fabulous. :)

But, yes, there really are loads of low-price, high quality options ... Techie 1200/1210 as Stan says, Pioneer PL71 ... a mate of mine has a fairly cheap JVC dd deck and that sounds great, too, with a DV10X5 on board.
Thorens? Dunno - not heard any recently, but a Dual 5000 at another friends' place was making fine music, indeed, a few weekends ago.

So much choice, so much good sound.
Why obsess and try and give up on music because of a trendy item that you cannot afford? :doh: :scratch:

[Reffc]

:lol:
Ah, but you should have heard it, Paul! :drool:
It sounded (and looked!) absolutely fabulous. :)

But, yes, there really are loads of low-price, high quality options ... Techie 1200/1210 as Stan says, Pioneer PL71 ... a mate of mine has a fairly cheap JVC dd deck and that sounds great, too, with a DV10X5 on board.
Thorens? Dunno - not heard any recently, but a Dual 5000 at another friends' place was making fine music, indeed, a few weekends ago.

So much choice, so much good sound.
Why obsess and try and give up on music because of something you cannot afford? :doh: :scratch:

:) Not doubting that at all Jerry ;) It was superb by all accounts and a credit to Paul who did a great job. Point was though (as you're saying too) that great decks can be had for less.

[synsei]

In all honesty, when the equipment takes precedence over the music it is time to take a deep breath, have a few beers and count to ten... :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andre,

Not to piddle on your bonfire. My 301 was bought from a woman who had stored it there for over 3 years since her husband died. It was basically levers and motor, it had no other bits and pieces. I have restored it back to mint nick but it has cost probably more than it should:( moral of this story is that unless you drop on a very lucky find 301 prices will for the time being remain high. 401 do seem to sell at cheaper prices, so if you really want. A 301/401 and if nothing else will do then I advise getting a tatty 401 doing as much with as you can and then saving up and getting it fully finished and fettled. This is the route I took (which as about a year in all). Or you could buy a cheapo dd turntable and then start looking for your dream 301/401 when funds permit.

Just my thoughts.....


A

[Floyddroid]

well said synsei. my thoughts exactly. i think this can be taken as read though or at least it should be. I think the main point here is that the Garrard TT's like the 1210's have been put on a pedastal just like the fore mentioned LP12 was many years ago. I owned an LP12 for fifteen years before i broke the habit. I think Mr Bird should take a leaf from your book sir and be enjoyng his music on a decent TT whilst saving for his dream or he is losing out on the reason that we have all this gear for, Enjoying music!

[chris@panteg]

I don't think it's a question of the best sounding deck ! I think Andre wants a classic idler TT and system from the late sixties/early seventies , and if given a time machine ? Would I guess move himself back to 1967 , when prog began .

[Macca]

Yes Andre has his own particular set of requirements. Although I don't understand why a GL75 won't fit the bill. Right era, idler drive, not expensive, sound really good when fettled.

[jandl100]

Hmm. Yep. You are right. I am missing the point.

But no, I still don't understand it!
I just don't have Andre's view of the world.

[chris@panteg]

Hmm. Yep. You are right. I am missing the point.

But no, I still don't understand it!
I just don't have Andre's view of the world.

Few of us do ! But we should at least try and understand !

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andre,

If you can get your hands on a alphason solo deck it might for the time being meet your requirements. Agreed its belt driven but it simply bats a well specked lp12 to one side. It's the best belt drive I ever owned. They can be picked up pretty cheaply, the suspension is an absolute doodle to setup, it's beats the black art of setting up a lp12. It accepts a number of arms, very easily, and it has it's own external power supply.

A

[Rare Bird]

I don't think it's a question of the best sounding deck ! I think Andre wants a classic idler TT and system from the late sixties/early seventies , and if given a time machine ? Would I guess move himself back to 1967 , when prog began .


Yes Andre has his own particular set of requirements. Although I don't understand why a GL75 won't fit the bill. Right era, idler drive, not expensive, sound really good when fettled.

Correct Chris, it has to be an Idler deck. I own a Goldring/Lenco ‘GL75’ already but quite franky they are a bit tacky imho. the platter & motor are of good qwality tho.

Can I just point out that I am not an Hi-Fi Enthusiast (I've said this many times before) I am a late 60’s/early 70’s obsessive, regardless of it being telephones to furniture to Hi-Fi, Build quality & design of the era are of paramount importance to me.

I am a bit puzzled as to someone saying the Garrard ‘301’/’401’ are not good build, don’t be mad they are battleship quality. My fav of all time has to be the Garrard ‘401’ motor unit the downside for me is the strobe platter & plastic chromed control panel.. The Thorens ‘TD124’ are just simply loverly I just have to try put aside that the motors arnt as robust as the Garrards are..


Mr Bird enjoys listening to ELP as do i. my experience is that when i have listened to all of ELP's back catalogue on a 401 i was underwhelmed considering the extortionate price that my friend paid for it.

I can understand what your saying I have owned both ‘401’ & ‘TD124’ before :doh: , the top end of the ‘TD124’ sounds a bit more airy than the ‘401’ but I feel the bottom end on the ‘401’ is to die for compared to the ‘TD124’ swings & roundabouts.. ‘TD124’ is the winner in my eyes..
However the asking prices these days are crazy & in all honesty if I did get the money together I begrudge paying it so you can pretty much garentee it aint gonna happen. Asking price for an 'SME 3012' would just shatter my dreams really. :(

In the meantime I have no stereo, everything I have is packed away yesterday in boxes & will remain that way for a long time yet.. I may even consider selling all my music up & move on completely as there’s basically no turntable apart from the outlined that is good enough to fill all my critera.. Belt drives & DD are like toys for amateurs after using one of these battleship vintage TT’s..


Thanks for all your input chaps even though some just don't get it :lol:

[Marco]

A well-sorted TD-124, with your arm and cartridge of choice, will see off pretty much any other T/T made now. Ultimately, with T/Ts, uber-engineering wins the day :)

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

A well-sorted TD-124, with your arm and cartridge of choice, will see off pretty much any other T/T made now. Ultimately, with T/Ts, uber-engineering wins the day :)

Marco.

Dream combo dude

http://www.thorens-info.de/assets/images/td124_0908

:thumbsup:

[Marco]

Defo - although there are plenty of other cartridges you could pop in there, which would also do a superb job, if you're not an SPU fan :)

Marco.

[Audioman]

Well Andre. Perhaps you should tell us what your budget is. The problem is while you are saving the objects of your desire are continualy going up in price. Frankly I would like a 401 as an alternative but I don't think it is going to outperform modern up market decks in all areas. Finding a good one (at least cosmeticaly) at reasonable money is a problem. They are either in poor shape or very expensive. It also costs a lot to re-plinth properly.

If you must have an idler drive I would suggest buying a Lenco and modifying it. If you can afford it (which sounds unlikely) and don't want a load of DIY why not consider the new Inspire based on a Lenco. At least try to hear one as it will tell you the potential. The L07D is pretty rare and it goes for far more than Garrards and Thorens. You could consider an SP10 though again a good one isn't cheap.

Other non Techi alternatives (belt drive) I would consider are Thorens 125 II or 160s. Also AR and Heybrook. Otherwise if you are going to end up spending a couple thousand modifying a Classic you might do well to look at the Mitchell Orbe (even Gyro) or Notts Analogue Space Deck and Hyperspace.

Not an opinion shared by some here but the Orbe and Hyperspace will give any old Garrard (restored) or heavily modified SL1200 a run for it's money. They are more airy and almost as speed stable subjectively in my view.

It depends if you are hooked on a certain sound or just want high quality vinyl replay. Also don't overlook the effect of a quality phono stage, the arm and cartridge in the overall sound. What I am saying don't get obsessed by something because it's getting constant plugs on this forum. Sometimes you would think only good TT's out there are SL1200 and 301/401.

Paul.

[Macca]

A couple of TD124 on the bay right now. One is a BIN at £1K - is that really what these things go for now?

[Rare Bird]

Paul

Thanks for the post but..I take it's you just skimmed past my post without reading ;)

Btw: Cabinet making was my profesion for years..

[MartinT]

Andr'e - if you want my Strathclyde, please let me know. It's not perfect, and it's belt drive, but it is a good looking and well performing classic deck.

[StanleyB]

Andr'e - if you want my Strathclyde, please let me know. It's not perfect, and it's belt drive, but it is a good looking and well performing classic deck.
Surely not a STD-305?

[Audioman]

Paul

Thanks for the post but..I take it's you just skimmed past my post without reading ;)

Btw: Cabinet making was my profesion for years..

I read your post. Nothing about cabinet making which won't help if you wanted a slate plinth for your desired decks. If nothing but the 3 decks mentioned will do mate you are beyond help. (Still don't know how much you want to pay). It does pay to have an open mind and consider other options. Perhaps you are expecting a member to donate you a 124 on the cheap then? Frankly if you are not open to suggestions and you can't afford the deck you want there is little point in this thread. :scratch:

[MartinT]

Surely not a STD-305?

STD-305M.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I read your post. Nothing about cabinet making which won't help if you wanted a slate plinth for your desired decks. If nothing but the 3 decks mentioned will do mate you are beyond help. (Still don't know how much you want to pay). It does pay to have an open mind and consider other options. Perhaps you are expecting a member to donate you a 124 on the cheap then? Frankly if you are not open to suggestions and you can't afford the deck you want there is little point in this thread. :scratch:

The point is that Andre loves his 60s and 70s stuff so ideally a deck of that vintage would suffice but it has to be idler drive. Which, TBH does limit his choices a little to Garrard or Thorens. I think thats the upshot of this thread, but, at least people have been king enough to donate decks or spend time suggesting others. ;)

[Rare Bird]

I read your post. Nothing about cabinet making which won't help if you wanted a slate plinth for your desired decks.

What on earth would i want a Slate deck for! I clearly stated im not an Audiophile, i make choice by the 60's design & build quality of the period, it performs how it was designed in the day. The cabinet making mention was simply to outline that i am fully capable of making my own plinth which wil again suit the period..

Once again thanks for the post.

[Audioman]

The point is that Andre loves his 60s and 70s stuff so ideally a deck of that vintage would suffice but it has to be idler drive. Which, TBH does limit his choices a little to Garrard or Thorens. I think thats the upshot of this thread, but, at least people have been king enough to donate decks or spend time suggesting others. ;)

I and others have suggested a Lenco which last time I checked is an idler. I mentioned the Inspire conversion as hearing it convinced me that suitably fettled it can rival 124s and 401s. We also still don't know what Andre's budget is which would help in suggesting alternatives or keeping a look out for something suitable.

Paul.

[chelsea]

I know it's not cheap but seen a few 401s finish around £400 in nice condition on ebay.

[Audioman]

What on earth would i want a Slate deck for! I clearly stated im not an Audiophile, i make choice by the 60's design & build quality of the period, it performs how it was designed in the day. The cabinet making mention was simply to outline that i am fully capable of making my own plinth which wil again suit the period..

Once again thanks for the post.

Thanks Andre - so I am now getting some better info. You are not bothered about doing any audiophile/modern type mods but want a vintage TT in standard form in a vintage style plinth with a vintage arm? I do think you should try a Lenco GL75/88/99 if you can't stretch to a good Garrard or 124.

Paul.

[StanleyB]

STD-305M.
I wouldn't give one of those to even my best friend. Many have heard of the LP12, but few know of the battle Linn had on its hand with the first true affordable LP12 killer.

[Audioman]

I know it's not cheap but seen a few 401s finish around £400 in nice condition on ebay.

A lot of these are not so nice when you start reading the description or look at detailed photos (if supplied). Also if not sold by a trusted refurbisher I think it is sensible to assume a complete strip down + some new parts may be required. Strangely if they come with a plinth and arm no matter how bad they usualy fetch more. I think the collector element is now pushing the prices rather than audiophiles for these decks.

Paul.

[Audioman]

I wouldn't give one of those to even my best friend. Many have heard of the LP12, but few know of the battle Linn had on its hand with the first true affordable LP12 killer.

Stanley. I compared the cheaper finished D version with a Thorens 160s and the later was much better. Bought the Thorens of course. A certain Linnofile reviewer did declare it better than the LP12 but soon went quiet on that conclusion. :)

Paul.

[nat8808]

A couple of TD124 on the bay right now. One is a BIN at £1K - is that really what these things go for now?

Nope! £450 - £550 is more usual and often the upper end will include an arm.

[nat8808]

Stanley. I compared the cheaper finished D version with a Thorens 160s and the later was much better. Bought the Thorens of course. A certain Linnofile reviewer did declare it better than the LP12 but soon went quiet on that conclusion. :)

Paul.

The D version is the expensive, DC motor'd one with speed readout that can handel 16rpm - 133 rpm! . Fetch £250 odd on ebay as BINs. Got a front-page "Linn beater!" review from Hifi Choice in the 80s.

Most "Linn Beater" reviews and reviewers went quiet faily soon after.. Repressive tactics by Linn were well known, e.g. not advertising in magazines if reviewers didn't have an LP12 in their systems, or something like that. Or was it Naim not allowing reviews and advertising if an LP12 wasn't in the test system?

You must mean the M or S version (not sure which is the cheaper).

[Macca]

Nope! £450 - £550 is more usual and often the upper end will include an arm.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thorens-TD124-Mk2-TD-124-Mk2-Stunning-Immaculate-Condition-Fully-Working-/181016120692?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Vintage_Separates&hash=item2a2566cd74

This one sans arm is at £530 with 8 days to go :scratch:

[Macca]

The D version is the expensive, DC motor'd one with speed readout that can handel 16rpm - 133 rpm! . ).

But only if you are playing Classical music ;)

[nat8808]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thorens-TD124-Mk2-TD-124-Mk2-Stunning-Immaculate-Condition-Fully-Working-/181016120692?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Vintage_Separates&hash=item2a2566cd74

This one sans arm is at £530 with 8 days to go :scratch:

You've picked the one that says

"Thorens TD124 Mk2 (TD-124 Mk2) - Stunning (Immaculate) Condition - Fully Working
IF YOU'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THE RIGHT ONE - HERE IT IS"

Sold by a dealer with international reputation with probably many people watching his sales. If bids are high from the start, then you know it's from bidders who aren't looking for bargains, it's from people with lots of money from Hong Kong or somewhere looking for the perfect one.

[Macca]

You've picked the one that says

"Thorens TD124 Mk2 (TD-124 Mk2) - Stunning (Immaculate) Condition - Fully Working
IF YOU'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THE RIGHT ONE - HERE IT IS"

Sold by a dealer with international reputation with probably many people watching his sales. If bids are high from the start, then you know it's from bidders who aren't looking for bargains, it's from people with lots of money from Hong Kong or somewhere looking for the perfect one.

Fair point, well made.

The other one is trailing it considerably with only 6 days.

Frankly if I really wanted one of these and didn't have the readies to hand I would buy it on tic. It's not like it is going to lose value and is likely to remain instantly saleable, so no risk really even if you don't like using credit.

[nat8808]

I'm sick to death, i cannot afford a real vintage turntable such as a Garrard '3/401' or Thorens 'TD124', cannot get cheaper vintage turntable how i want them :steam: I desperatly want to throw the towel in with records but i can not live with CDees i cannot take them seriously in the same way i cannot live with a modern piece of equipment ... :steam: :steam: :steam:

Ive tried for a few days to refrain from music completely but can't, tried to switch off & move onto old past times i used to have, no luck.. :doh:

Anyone else like this..

So, what is your budget?

I would price a 401 at around £350. Keep an eye on eBay and find one for £450 ish with an arm, sometimes as little as under £300. I hate say but I bought a 401 from eBay, misdescribed and in the wrong section, for £14 only probably a year ago, and with SME 3009.

301s regularly finish in the £500s.

TD124s can be found for £450 and a bit more with an arm. You just have to keep an eye out! Look in local papers too, local sales etc

[Audioman]

The D version is the expensive, DC motor'd one with speed readout that can handel 16rpm - 133 rpm! . Fetch £250 odd on ebay as BINs. Got a front-page "Linn beater!" review from Hifi Choice in the 80s.

Most "Linn Beater" reviews and reviewers went quiet faily soon after.. Repressive tactics by Linn were well known, e.g. not advertising in magazines if reviewers didn't have an LP12 in their systems, or something like that. Or was it Naim not allowing reviews and advertising if an LP12 wasn't in the test system?

You must mean the M or S version (not sure which is the cheaper).

Yes I may have got them mixed up. It must have been the M - lacking in bass extension compared with Thorens.

Paul.

[nat8808]

Fair point, well made.

The other one is trailing it considerably with only 6 days.

Frankly if I really wanted one of these and didn't have the readies to hand I would buy it on tic. It's not like it is going to lose value and is likely to remain instantly saleable, so no risk really even if you don't like using credit.

Tried to find some older sales from my watched item emails but I obviously haven't been watching 124s!

Here are a few though:

From the same seller as above, Mk1 (nicer IMO) and possibly with early heavy platter £487 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thorens-TD124-TD-124-Nice-Condition-and-Fully-Working-/180959351356?item=180959351356&ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:GB:1123&nma=true&si=%2Bo96%2FsDHRi9mUxyvaQQOmWedEfM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

One with 3012 and V15 - £870. Sell the arm and cart and you've a sub £200 TD124 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-THORENS-TD124-MK-II-SME-3012-SHURE-V15-III-/320803891651?item=320803891651&ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:GB:1123&nma=true&si=%2Bo96%2FsDHRi9mUxyvaQQOmWedEfM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

This one went for £380, the listing a little old now but not too unrepresentative of the lower price end (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thorens-TD-124-II-turntable-62359-pick-up-25390-/220867495938?item=220867495938&ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:GB:1123&nma=true&si=%2Bo96%2FsDHRi9mUxyvaQQOmWedEfM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

The age of the last two is only due to the few I've actually watched, not because they've never sold at those prices since.

[nat8808]

Some more, recent sales of 301/401s:

401 with 3009 Series 2 and plinth - £470 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrard-401-and-SME-3009-tonearm-/290792142528?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item43b48ff6c0&nma=true&si=%2Bo96%2FsDHRi9mUxyvaQQOmWedEfM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

301 with Decca arm and Decca cart in a plinth - £780 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-vintage-Garrard-model-301-turntable-/181005041380?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item2a24bdbee4&nma=true&si=%2Bo96%2FsDHRi9mUxyvaQQOmWedEfM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

Nice early, flat strobe (like a 301) 401 - £335 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrard-401-Turntable-/330812932194?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item4d05fcc062&nma=true&si=%2Bo96%2FsDHRi9mUxyvaQQOmWedEfM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

301 with SME 3009 in plinth and with MP11 cart - £666 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Record-deck-Garrard-301-Turntable-/330808558168?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item4d05ba0258&nma=true&si=%2Bo96%2FsDHRi9mUxyvaQQOmWedEfM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

In the voice of Steve Coogan on The Day Today "... I could go on? " - interviewer nods..

301 with 3009 Series 2 and Shure M95 in solid marble plinth - £770 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrard-301-SME-3009-Shure-M95ED-/290789938223?nma=true&si=%2Bo96%2FsDHRi9mUxyvaQQOmWedEfM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

So, take a cold shower, and start looking for one at a good price! Might mean trawling through ebay or local ads but rarely do things just fall into your lap. Might have to put some money aside but perhaps you have a credit card to help out if needed? Buy one with a good arm and sell it on and put on a much cheaper arm for the time being - will get some of your money back on the original outlay.

[Cotlake]

Reading this thread with interest. A couple of things. Thoren TD124 is not idler drive. It is belt drive using a pair of round rubber rings. These rings are very short so the TT should not suffer from speed variations associated with the more common belt drivers.

Rare Bird seems to be driven by the vintage of the TT rather than the actually sound quality potential. 301/401 TT's didn't sound that good in domestic use in the 50/70's because the plinths used failed to sink the energies from the motor and platter assembly properly leading to high rumble readings (Prompt Ivor T and the LP12, or rather AR to come to the fore because he developed the LP12 on the back of AR's belt drive design). It is only in recent years that we have come to understand this better with the use of slate and big CLD wood plinths to properly sink the unwanted energies. The BBC understood this in the day and mounted their broadcast decks accordingly but it is only recently there was a domestic break through to allow an idler drive to perform well in the home.

This is the irony. Garrards etc are now sort after and valued because well after the factory has closed and the products are no longer made, (regardless of what Stanley thinks) properly plinthed and set up, they can out-perform most modern TT's.

Rare Bird has a dichotomy. Buy an idler drive and set it up in period style to suit his taste or alternatively, set it up properly. The former will look right and sound crap. The latter won't look right for a 50/70's setting, but it will play music properly and sound great :rolleyes:

In such circumstances, I concur with others here. Rare Bird, get a Lenco and enjoy the mediocrity of both worlds :doh:

[The Black Adder]

Reading this thread with interest. A couple of things. Thoren TD124 is not idler drive. It is belt drive using a pair of round rubber rings. These rings are very short so the TT should not suffer from speed variations associated with the more common belt drivers.

Might be reading this wrong but it is an idler drive, it's a belt driven idler drive.

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/124mk2_idler_adjustment400.jpg

Fluctuations are corrected with an eddy brake but your right fluctuations are minimal or none existent if the deck is looked after, a little lube every 18months to 2 years and takes 5 mins to do.

As for a TD124. I'll keep my eyes open for you mate.

There is something special about a vintage deck, sound wise I'm sure some other decks will sound just as good but then they all have their quirks in how they portray the music. Then there is the sheer quality of the build and the styling and knowing it pre-dates you is also warming. I'm just a vintage softee!

Problem is.... lol, once you have one it's soooo tempting to buy new platters and top platters, bearing shafts, regulated psu's - to which I have kept from the door with a big pointy stick.

[Rare Bird]

Reading this thread with interest. A couple of things. Thoren TD124 is not idler drive. It is belt drive using a pair of round rubber rings. These rings are very short so the TT should not suffer from speed variations associated with the more common belt drivers.

Rare Bird seems to be driven by the vintage of the TT rather than the actually sound quality potential. 301/401 TT's didn't sound that good in domestic use in the 50/70's because the plinths used failed to sink the energies from the motor and platter assembly properly leading to high rumble readings (Prompt Ivor T and the LP12, or rather AR to come to the fore because he developed the LP12 on the back of AR's belt drive design). It is only in recent years that we have come to understand this better with the use of slate and big CLD wood plinths to properly sink the unwanted energies. The BBC understood this in the day and mounted their broadcast decks accordingly but it is only recently there was a domestic break through to allow an idler drive to perform well in the home.

This is the irony. Garrards etc are now sort after and valued because well after the factory has closed and the products are no longer made, (regardless of what Stanley thinks) properly plinthed and set up, they can out-perform most modern TT's.

Rare Bird has a dichotomy. Buy an idler drive and set it up in period style to suit his taste or alternatively, set it up properly. The former will look right and sound crap. The latter won't look right for a 50/70's setting, but it will play music properly and sound great :rolleyes:

In such circumstances, I concur with others here. Rare Bird, get a Lenco and enjoy the mediocrity of both worlds :doh:

Yep im aware they are both Belt & Idler, so was the last deck i had..As for poor constructed plinth i'm also aware of that & intend to build a new plinth keeping in design asthetics of the era but far better internal construction..I think im best off writing everything down in deep detail in the future ;)

I have a Lenco but far from like it.

[Cotlake]

Black Adder, sorry you're not right. See page 7 in the user manual.

http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp6_pics/TT%20manuals/Thorens/TD124.pdf

Actually, I got it wrong. It seems to be a single belt design of motor pulley drive belt to speed wheel to idler wheel to platter rim. Garrard took out the 'middleman' in comparison. There may have been variations on the TD124 design but they always had a belt drive in their somewhere.

Look at this


http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp6_pics/Garrard/Pitak/pitak_124_7.jpg

It seems to confirm what I've said albeit the length of the drive belt makes me suspect that the stretchy belt speed variation could easily apply here also. Glad I've got a 401 :)

[Marco]

Hi Greg,

Nice to see you popping in. How's it going? I hope you are keeping well :)


stretchy belt speed variation


Mmm... I've never heard such an effect with the TD124s I've listened to, and certainly Joe (Black Adder's) comes into that category.

At the end of the day, all T/Ts have their inherent 'house sound', 401s and TD124s included, therefore as ever, which is 'best' is down to personal taste. Much as I enjoy the sound of a well-fettled 401, the similarly well-fettled TD124s I've heard are ultimately more to my taste. I also prefer how the nicest ones look:

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5216/33623135916936d1f1a9o.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/33623135916936d1f1a9o.jpg/)


Yum yum! :stalks: :eek:

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/010.jpg


Has to be the prettiest turntable of all.

Well, it is to me.

[Rare Bird]

absolutly heart melting Marco, i love the Schopper type plinth it is so much a match made in heaven..

[Marco]

They certainly tick all the boxes for me, dude. I particularly like how neat (and cute) TD124s look. Love yours too, Dave! :)

For some reason (maybe because the 401 is a bigger motor unit), those always end up being housed in big, bulky, plinths, which aesthetically just aren't to my taste, and thus need siting on unconventional equipment supports. I prefer something small and neat (such as the the TD124s, shown above, or my Techy) which I can simply plonk on top of my Mana rack, without having to build a bespoke support for a T/T (I can't just sit my kit on ordinary furniture, I'm afraid), and then rearrange the room, in order to fit in whatever has been built!

Like I've said before, if I knew then what I know now about vintage T/Ts, I'd have simply bought a nice TD124, and fettled it to the max, instead of modifying an SL-1210, and spending many thousands of pounds on that journey (over £6.5k now to date), although I have to say that it does sound utterly stunning and has competed very favourably recently with established high-end T/Ts costing up to £20k.

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

Don't mean to be rude bud by how the hell do you afford it. We work anything up to 120 hours a week between us & i still can't afford a proper TT! I must be missing something with folk :scratch:

[Marco]

Don't mean to be rude bud by how the hell do you afford it.

By selling 'toys' to the transgender community :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

[synsei]

A fascinating thread this. We spend a lot of time on this forum espousing the virtues of music over hardware and yet here we are on a thread which does the complete opposite, and yet I understand André's predicament to a degree.

One question for André; why would you consider selling your music collection, which you so obviously cherish? Forgive me, but it almost seems as if you are attempting to punish yourself for not owning the right equipment. I understand your passion for the period but to me this seems a tad extreme...:doh:

[Rare Bird]

Because i used to buy Turntables more often than the dustbin men come empty our bins, i've been through everything, on reflection i would'nt own a massive percentage now if they paid me.. I've short listed a couple of decks that i now recognise as the absolute best ive ever owned & realise i was such a fool to let them go back then, but with Hi-Fi the Grass always seems greener on the other side..

However i've come to a brick wall situation where i can't get past, money has basically stopped me in my tracks, exactly the same situation happened regarding the asking prices for records i used to buy, they too are crazy..

I have tho, only one person to blame & thats myself, i had everything at one time, the best vintage stuff, the most prized of rare 1st issue Obscure Prog/Psych vinyl collection, i guess even trying to rebuild what i once had is near on impossible now..I'm just not happy with all these new re-isshew LP's so i don't even know why i bother!

I detest CDee now to the point that i never listern to one for more than 15 mins before i have to turn off. Yes course im gutted, even had a near on suicidal episode yesterday out of frustration.

What's to be done? Do i live with the vintage equipment i have that i look down on everytime, or do i just sell up & walk away from it all.. I'm the first to admit i have serious head issues & like things perfect in my world but it's just not happening, i'm tired & need to move on..

To cut a long story short, im very enthusiastic person with my own ideals, if i can't have what i want, how i want it, i would rather do without rather than put up with something (to me) inferior.. a mardy bastid in other words.

What a stonkingly good sob story eh :mental:

[synsei]

Actually André I get it totally. I let all my vinyl and some great gear go in the 80's because basically I thought I could improve on what I had, when actually, what I had was really good. I ended up ruining the system completely and simply gave up. I vowed never to get caught up in the hifi upgrade whirlwind ever again, and yet here I am :D

As far as equipment goes what I have can be bettered of course, but to do so would cost me a fortune. I can't afford it so I settle for what I've got and I am happy to do that. What I have now sounds far better than the best I owned back in the 80's (although there's the odd component I wish I had hung on to) so I'm doing okay, but then, unlike yourself, I've not tied myself to a particular era which makes life a little easier. I guess the choice in front of you is whether to walk away or get saving. ;)

[RobbieGong]

Hi Andre, I feel your pain my man. This whole music - hifi game is a proper bitter sweet journey in many ways. If it aint the system, it's the blinkin vinyl and all that goes with it. Like you, It just has to be right ( I really cant do compromises) I've had moments when I've really been in a good place with turntable / system sounding lovely and then pushed on only to enter the helter skelter ride of upgrade joy and pain as well as financial drainage. All I can say is dont get too down and try to keep things in perspective. I'm now paying off my 'hifi toys' debt :eyebrows: and I'm just not letting things get to me. I'm focusing on enjoying the bits and pieces I now have that I used to dream about having and that's alright with me ;) From you aint hurting anyone Andre then just take it easy and indulge a little (without having the bailiffs visit), I've a feeling it will bring you a fair degree of satisfaction - Every blessing! :)

[MartinT]

Keep doing what you're good at, Andr'e. Root out old and obscure kit and take pride in a great find. If I had limited funds I would do exactly the same thing. Of course, I'm not obsessed with finish in the way that you are, but we each have different things we look for. It's a shame that so much equipment value is hugely uplifted in these eBay times, but there are still bargains to be had.

[The Black Adder]

Black Adder, sorry you're not right.

Well.. in your eyes maybe but if you read my post... It's a belt driven idler drive.


It seems to confirm what I've said albeit the length of the drive belt makes me suspect that the stretchy belt speed variation could easily apply here also.

No it doesn't... as I said, if it's looked after there is no fluctuation that's why they are so good. They were used along side the Garrard 301's in studios across the world. The belts last for years so replace when you re-lube after 18 months or so. Nuff said.



Glad I've got a 401 :)

:) Cool.. they are nice decks. But for me the 301 is a nicer deck than the 401 in looks and performance. The Thorens is my fave, it's down to personal taste, that's why I'z got one. :eyebrows:

[Marco]

+1 to all of the above! :)

Marco.

[nat8808]

Because i used to buy Turntables more often than the dustbin men come empty our bins, i've been through everything, on reflection i would'nt own a massive percentage now if they paid me.. I've short listed a couple of decks that i now recognise as the absolute best ive ever owned & realise i was such a fool to let them go back then, but with Hi-Fi the Grass always seems greener on the other side..

However i've come to a brick wall situation where i can't get past, money has basically stopped me in my tracks, exactly the same situation happened regarding the asking prices for records i used to buy, they too are crazy..

I have tho, only one person to blame & thats myself, i had everything at one time, the best vintage stuff, the most prized of rare 1st issue Obscure Prog/Psych vinyl collection, i guess even trying to rebuild what i once had is near on impossible now..I'm just not happy with all these new re-isshew LP's so i don't even know why i bother!

I detest CDee now to the point that i never listern to one for more than 15 mins before i have to turn off. Yes course im gutted, even had a near on suicidal episode yesterday out of frustration.

What's to be done? Do i live with the vintage equipment i have that i look down on everytime, or do i just sell up & walk away from it all.. I'm the first to admit i have serious head issues & like things perfect in my world but it's just not happening, i'm tired & need to move on..

To cut a long story short, im very enthusiastic person with my own ideals, if i can't have what i want, how i want it, i would rather do without rather than put up with something (to me) inferior.. a mardy bastid in other words.

What a stonkingly good sob story eh :mental:

In which case, taking what you've said seriously, I would advise walking away from it.

If an enthusiasm becomes an obsession that causes so much stress that you can't find happiness and even consider suicide (I'm not sure how strongly you meant that... :stalks:) then you really need a break from it !

There is so much more to life than the equipment you play records on. When you can't even enjoy the music because the equipment isn't right, again, you need to step away and re-frame everything, get back to a safe position of happiness and appreciation of what you have around you (friends, family, pets, culture, places, environment, BASE jumping - whatever!). Only then can you think clearly about what is important to you in larger terms.

Forums are little hot boxes of obession and over-reaction too. I've had many a revelation when I've stayed away from forums and cut down on general internet use - the less chat about hifi and music , the more I tend to actually listen and the more I enjoy it !

[The Black Adder]

My suggestion is just start somewhere. Sell some other gear that your not that attached to and buy what you really want and can afford. Don't get strung up on trying to get everything at once. I've always sold stuff on to fund other kit I really wanted. And even though I loved it I just knew I wanted something else even more.. so it set a focal point. The system grew from that point.

If you can't do that then that's the time to walk away. And I agree with Nat, talking about stuff on forums can blur the enjoyment sometimes. You have to keep cool.

[Rare Bird]

Perfectionism is an obsession thats right. Pitty the world aint void of the too many couldnt careless ''O that'll do'' attitudes!

For one Music & the equipment i love are a massive massive part of my life i know i could never walk away from if i tried, i'll admit that.

However i've had a long hard think to myself & bought a deck i think i'll be very happy with for years (providing it falls in line with my seemingly bad standards)

So that kinda wrapps this thread up.

[The Black Adder]

Whatcha get? :)

[nat8808]

Hopefully this excellent condition TD124 for £350 on eBay :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thorens-TD124-Mk2-TD-124-Mk2-Stunning-Condition-Fully-Working-/261130262155 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thorens-TD124-Mk2-TD-124-Mk2-Stunning-Condition-Fully-Working-/261130262155http://)

Told you they are cheaper than people think.

[Rare Bird]

Aye thats why it's removed lol

[nat8808]

Odd, that - must be something odd in the url I copy and pasted. Maybe this link will work..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thorens-TD124-Mk2-TD-124-Mk2-Stunning-Condition-Fully-Working-/261130262155?clk_rvr_id=416840357088&afsrc=1&nma=true&si=WZXXzFjrCF%2B2mrDF1OR6zzksIH8%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Certainly I can see the listing and searching for past TD124 sales brings it up.

[Barry]

Odd, that - must be something odd in the url I copy and pasted. Maybe this link will work..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thorens-TD124-Mk2-TD-124-Mk2-Stunning-Condition-Fully-Working-/261130262155?clk_rvr_id=416840357088&afsrc=1&nma=true&si=WZXXzFjrCF%2B2mrDF1OR6zzksIH8%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Certainly I can see the listing and searching for past TD124 sales brings it up.

It is a "modified" (or 'bodged') sample, not an original That's why it went for £350. A previous sample went on eBay for over £1000.

[nat8808]

It is a "modified" (or 'bodged') sample, not an original That's why it went for £350. A previous sample went on eBay for over £1000.

oops... hadn't noticed that.

The £1000 one was a well hyped, time-warp condition, good reputation dealer seller with international shipping so not representative either.

I still maintain that an average price on ebay for a TD124 is around the £500 mark. That's modal average, not mean average BTW.

e.g. Thorens-TD-124-II-Turntable-with-SME-3009-Tonearm-Preowned (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thorens-TD-124-II-Turntable-with-SME-3009-Tonearm-Preowned-/190757768407?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item2c6a0c8cd7&nma=true&si=WZXXzFjrCF%2B2mrDF1OR6zzksIH8%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

Sell the 3009 Improved for £230 (as I've seen sold on the forums) and you have a £470 TD124 with plinth.

[Mr Kipling]

Aye. . . You're a bit of an enigma, Andre! But then life would be so much more boring if we were all the same and devoid of any personal peccadilloes. I'm viewed as a bit of an odd-ball myself. I think this is what AOS is: a haven for the odd-ball audio enthusiast!

Have you always been so obssessive Andre? I suppose it's a blokey thing. Have to say though I've never been that fanatical about collecting anything (said the man with 9 Cambridge Audio P amps!). Arr, but that's different. I had a P 60 in the late '70s and let it go. Been trying to get another for years and years. Have two now but only one is reasonable cosmetically. The others are in poor shape too, but I felt I had to rescue them.

I don't feel myself really lusting for anything now. If I had the money I'd get an Audio Research SP8 together with an Ongaku. As I don't though, I'll make do with my Audioromy 828 which looks quite nice, sounds quite nice and cost just £200 and is still available for about £300 now. It would be nice to have some Stax headphones but I'll make do with my Aiwa HP-V151s for the foreseeable future.

I have loads of stuff in need of fettling and it's my New Years' resolution not to buy anymore and get working what I've got.

Hope the Thorens gives you what you're looking for, Andre.

[Rare Bird]

obssessive! Absolutly but not with Hi-Fi like others are, no i'm an obsessive for the era's designs/build as well as the era in general.


Whatcha get? :)

I already had it.. The 'TD124' is basically too expensive for my wallet. So i have no option but to stick with my Modded 'Goldring/Lenco' GL75.. Actually i just been reading the glowing review of the Inspire Hi-Fi Enigma TT. :)

[The Black Adder]

The Goldring/Lenco' GL75 is a really nice deck imo... ::

Inspire decks are very nice..! I went over there just a few months ago. Sound great.

[Mr Kipling]

This is one of a number of links posted previously, but you probably haven't viewed it.

He's not a fan of the 124 - despite having had 3.

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Lenco.html#Top

[Barry]

This is one of a number of links posted previously, but you probably haven't viewed it.

He's not a fan of the 124 - despite having had 3.

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Lenco.html#Top

I never place much credence in what he says.

If he could hear rumble from his 124, then it was not up to performance and obviously needed a service.

Regards (an owner and user of three TD124/II decks)

[Marco]

Anyone who doesn't like a suitably fettled TD-124, with a decent cartridge, is deaf!

Marco.

[Mr Kipling]

Well, Marco, as me granny used to say (she had quite a lot of sayings did me granny. Do grannies still impart such wisdom on their young these days? Probably not.) : "To each his own". Never having heard or owned a 124, I cannot comment. I do like the look of it, however. I'll make do with me 401.

[The Black Adder]

I never place much credence in what he says.

If he could hear rumble from his 124, then it was not up to performance and obviously needed a service.

Regards (an owner and user of three TD124/II decks)

+1