View Full Version : Cables and DACs
wee tee cee
03-11-2012, 19:07
Had a wee session today with digital cables/interconnects/DACs.
The protagonists consisted of gary/,brian and ali tait
brian2957
03-11-2012, 19:16
Interesting day mate . Your Quad speakers sounded very impressive indeed with the valve amps . Thoroughly enjoyed the day . Thanks for having us over.:)
wee tee cee
03-11-2012, 19:22
With all the hardware in the frae it was great to be surprised that a cable had the biggest impact...with all the chopping and changing
What DACs and cables did you guys compare then? Any highlights?
wee tee cee
03-11-2012, 19:42
cables...mark grant wtb silver co ax
silver bullet oyaiade
mcrus ultimate
dacs
mf m1
rega
alis valve dac
interconnects
tq
mg 1500
So what were the results Tony
Ali Tait
03-11-2012, 19:46
Cheers for having us over Tony, was an enjoyable day, and it was great to hear a pair of Quad 63's again. Fabulous speakers.
Dacs were - MF M1, Rega Dac, and my Nick Gorham valve special. I took along some cables too, a pair of TQ Black I/C's, an Oyaide silver digi cable and a MCRU Ultimate digi cable.
Quick take on the day, all dacs were good, but the valve dac again took the honours. Most noteworthy was the MCRU Ultimate, a large step up from the Supra Tony was using, and we all felt the cable made a bigger difference than any of the dacs.
As Gary noted, once we had the best sound of the day, it became all about the music and we forgot all about the kit. Just a great sound that you could happily listen to all day.
wee tee cee
03-11-2012, 20:21
great to hear the rega kit in my set up....the dac proved up to its reputation, musical and enjoyable-improved on my mf m1 in treble and bass stakes.
Ali has in his corner the bespoke valve dac that can take on all comers...once again it stood out for its effortless presentation and ability to cut to the chase-the music!!!
What really surprised us all was the influence of the single digital cable between vlink and dac. Gary had brought along the 192 vlink which proved a noticeable upgrade over my mk1 v link.
The different digital cables (all co-ax) were surprising, to say the least......
Ah I was going to ask whether Gaz took the V-Link 192, if I were to get into computer audio then this is what I'd buy (again, as I sold it to Gaz!).
Yes digital cables make a difference because of the designed-in flaws that appear especially when using RCA cables.
Ali Tait
03-11-2012, 20:30
This was an RCA cable, using Eichmann silver bullets. Dunno what David does with it, but it's one special cable. It was head and shoulders above the others.
wee tee cee
03-11-2012, 20:36
The only change of the day that made us all look at each other in the mode of WTF!!!!!
A noticeable upgrade on some excellent cables present...
my tight Scottish wallet quivered.....might have to let the moths out and part with some readies.....
This was an RCA cable, using Eichmann silver bullets. Dunno what David does with it, but it's one special cable. It was head and shoulders above the others.
Interestingly the Eichmann plugs are about as good as it gets with regard to RCAs & SPDIF impedance matching (75 ohm), so it seems like you guys heard it. :D
Ali Tait
03-11-2012, 20:47
Well the Oyaide used the same plugs, so it must be the cable!
Well the Oyaide used the same plugs, so it must be the cable!
Were they the same length?
Ali Tait
03-11-2012, 20:55
Oyaide was 1m, the Ultimate was 1.5 and yes, we discussed whether. The length was a factor!
wee tee cee
03-11-2012, 21:02
Great hearing different wires and kit in my room...above all else, good company, music and the cake wasn't at all bad......
Ali Tait
03-11-2012, 21:04
Aye!
Interesting to read this guys, anyone can take a piece of wire and solder 2 plugs on, I don't conform to that practice as I research materials and cable geometry and trial different designs and configurations until I get something that is quite unique and punches well above it's weight, hopefully you agree with that with what you heard!
Oyaide was 1m, the Ultimate was 1.5 and yes, we discussed whether. The length was a factor!
I would have expected the 1.5m cable to sound better, I think 1m is to short for an SPDIF cable. However, the fact of the matter is that these things really do sound different. :D
Ali Tait
03-11-2012, 21:45
Interesting to read this guys, anyone can take a piece of wire and solder 2 plugs on, I don't conform to that practice as I research materials and cable geometry and trial different designs and configurations until I get something that is quite unique and punches well above it's weight, hopefully you agree with that with what you heard!
Yes well, the Ultimate is by far the best digi cable I've heard so far.
wee tee cee
03-11-2012, 22:01
Interesting to read this guys, anyone can take a piece of wire and solder 2 plugs on, I don't conform to that practice as I research materials and cable geometry and trial different designs and configurations until I get something that is quite unique and punches well above it's weight, hopefully you agree with that with what you heard! we all heard something special today with that one element.....it was a cut above!
The most significant single upgrade we tried all day....even with the electronics in play.
the tq interconnects were great but a subtle upgrade....the ultimate was not subtle---it was a revelation!!!!
Interestingly the Eichmann plugs are about as good as it gets with regard to RCAs & SPDIF impedance matching (75 ohm), so it seems like you guys heard it. :D
That makes no sense as what its plugged into is no where near 75 Ohm! :eyebrows: It may be closer to 30~40 Ohms though which would be closer to what its plugged into.
wee tee cee
03-11-2012, 22:33
we didn't have any measurement equipment to hand...just trusted our ears.
:D So how do you know they are 'close to 75 Ohm'?
We didn't care, too busy enjoying the music!
Have to agree, dont know what pixie dust David sprinkles on his digi cable, but best Ive heard.
Tony's quads sounded fantastic, no lack of bass.
These things just sing with valves firing up 'em.
Cheers to Tony who was up till 4am that morning making us a cake. :)
Always good to get together, highly recommended.
Looking forward to the next one.
(Ill bring my cardboard elephant ears....)
Have to say was really surprised how well the Quads rocked.
ACDC sounded fantastic, even played through 320k Spotify
brian2957
04-11-2012, 08:18
Yes he did look tired :eyebrows: nice cake though . Have to agree with all you guys have said , great way to spend a Saturday.
Ali Tait
04-11-2012, 10:50
What struck me was, for the second time in our get-togethers, a cable made a bigger difference than any of the kit.
Aye...
Was a similar wtf moment as the tq black cable hooked up to my RS3's.
That makes no sense as what its plugged into is no where near 75 Ohm! :eyebrows: It may be closer to 30~40 Ohms though which would be closer to what its plugged into.
Some manufacturers like Eichmann and Canare aim to get their RCA plugs as close to 75 Ohms as possible, which is partly due to SPDIF requirements and partly because they'll still work perfectly fine in analogue applications.
Yes, the RCA socket itself is probably going to introduce another impedance mismatch, but you find that the differences between cables rapidly disappear when you are using BNC hardware and proper cable.
IMHO, the audible differences between cables appear to be related to signal reflections affecting clock signals as the data almost always seems to get through perfectly. When people on forums speak about 'bits is bits' and we get measurably bit perfect sound I don't see much discussion of the analogue i.e. clock signals.
There's no 'probably' about it Neil, the RCA socket will introduce a mismatch unless its a Canare matched socket which apparently meets the 75Ohm requirement but you don't see them used on kit very often. Eichmann state their bullet plugs actually have negligible impedance so the cable determines what the impedance is, all fine until its plugged into a socket where it all goes wrong. BNC is much better and will have a high return signal loss given the correct termination, if only manufactures would make more use of it then all this messing about with cables would be a thing of the past! ;)
we all heard something special today with that one element.....it was a cut above!
The most significant single upgrade we tried all day....even with the electronics in play.
the tq interconnects were great but a subtle upgrade....the ultimate was not subtle---it was a revelation!!!!
can I quote you on that? :)
we didn't have any measurement equipment to hand...just trusted our ears.
which is the best way to test anything related to hi-fi
who gives a toss about measurements, it's the sound that matters:)
A thing of beauty, glad you all liked it so much.......
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/BONI%20AUG%202012/22b3c06e.jpg
I may reveal the secret of this cable at Owston if anyone is going......
which is the best way to test anything related to hi-fi
who gives a toss about measurements, it's the sound that matters:)
It is the best way to test, but our eyes and minds can often get in the way. The reason I come on this forum the most is that it one of the most accepting that cables, CD transports etc. all make a difference, but I have fallen foul to expectation bias and the useless reference of long-term auditory memory, so for me a little bit of the objective and a little of of the subjective is the way to go rather than firmly belonging in one camp.
well apart from the fact that the human race has lost the ability to think for themselves, I take little notice of theory and use practice instead, one man's meat is another man's ..forgotten already! :)
Ali Tait
04-11-2012, 16:58
It is the best way to test, but our eyes and minds can often get in the way. The reason I come on this forum the most is that it one of the most accepting that cables, CD transports etc. all make a difference, but I have fallen foul to expectation bias and the useless reference of long-term auditory memory, so for me a little bit of the objective and a little of of the subjective is the way to go rather than firmly belonging in one camp.
Well, on the day, I can say that the cable made a bigger difference than any of the three dacs we tried. The Quads may be a factor in this, they are very revealing.
wee tee cee
04-11-2012, 17:30
can I quote you on that? :) of course....not blowing smoke up your arse but that cable was really outstanding.
Out of my price range but like the TQ usb on my wish list....for anyone using a v link to dac connection it represents the pinnacle of coax.
What we all heard was the removal of harshness/fug the music just opened up.
We all looked at each other in a WTF fashion with that sinking feeling that your card is going to get rag dolled sooner or later.
Ali Tait
04-11-2012, 17:33
How about PM'ing the lads with a group deal David? :eyebrows:
brian2957
04-11-2012, 18:23
I may be interested in that Ali :)
Measurements do matter because the results can be related to the listening experience, when that link is made and verified it removes a lot of guess work out of what cable is going to work...of course is could also remove all the foo and mystic surrounding yet another 'audiophile' cable :rolleyes:
Going back to the Eichmann bullets it would be worth experimenting with 30~40 Ohm impedance cables with these as this would appear to offer a closer match than 75 Ohm....
Measurements do matter because the results can be related to the listening experience, when that link is made and verified it removes a lot of guess work out of what cable is going to work...of course is could also remove all the foo and mystic surrounding yet another 'audiophile' cable :rolleyes:
Going back to the Eichmann bullets it would be worth experimenting with 30~40 Ohm impedance cables with these as this would appear to offer a closer match than 75 Ohm....
I have done the experimentation for you and The Ultimate is what transpired, I personally doubt if anything anywhere near the price can beat it. I tried at least 8 different cables and more than 15 connectors, oh and there is the solder don't forget, that is part of the equation. :)
Well not for me as I make my own! ;)
Measurements do matter because the results can be related to the listening experience, when that link is made and verified it removes a lot of guess work out of what cable is going to work...of course is could also remove all the foo and mystic surrounding yet another 'audiophile' cable :rolleyes:
Going back to the Eichmann bullets it would be worth experimenting with 30~40 Ohm impedance cables with these as this would appear to offer a closer match than 75 Ohm....
Eichmann bullet plugs & sockets (like Canare) are closer to 75R than the vast majority of manufacturers, so not quite sure what you mean here.
Well, Canare claim theirs are but Eichmann claim 'negligible' impedance, impedance being set by the cable. The Canare where measured on DIYAudio and AFAIK their claim disputed.
Ali Tait
05-11-2012, 09:30
Measurements do matter because the results can be related to the listening experience, when that link is made and verified it removes a lot of guess work out of what cable is going to work...of course is could also remove all the foo and mystic surrounding yet another 'audiophile' cable :rolleyes:
Going back to the Eichmann bullets it would be worth experimenting with 30~40 Ohm impedance cables with these as this would appear to offer a closer match than 75 Ohm....
Well I'd hope you know me well enough to know I would not be taken in by foo Neal.
Whatever the reason, this cable made a bigger difference on the day than any other bit of kit. That is what our ears told us. Would I be interested in knowing why? Yes!
I agree with all you say about measurements, but surely the final arbiter is yer lug holes?
brian2957
05-11-2012, 10:22
Have to agree with you Ali . I have no technical know-how or measuring equipment . The only measurement tool which I have is my ears . These cables were indeed a bit of a revelation, on the day, in Tonys' system . I would of course have to hear them in my own system to make a final decision . Synergy is very important IMHO.
Yup agree with the rest of the lads, that's what we all heard.
Its a fit n forget cable, knowing that you can concentrate on the rest of the system and not worry.
Its on my wishlist too..much like "wow factor" the TQ Black speaker cable cable brought to the party at a get together at my gaff recently.
My Rega homebrew coax using Klotz cable sounded nice too as did Ali's Oyaide, but they all missed that certain "something" the Ultimate had.
How about PM'ing the lads with a group deal David? :eyebrows:
:)
Well I'd hope you know me well enough to know I would not be taken in by foo Neal.
I know Ali, I know! :)
Whatever the reason, this cable made a bigger difference on the day than any other bit of kit. That is what our ears told us. Would I be interested in knowing why? Yes!
Hence why I asked, such a noted improvement should be identifiable during measurement IE: TDR test
I agree with all you say about measurements, but surely the final arbiter is yer lug holes?
Indeed but it needs to correlate to something tangible doing so should cut out any 'mystique' about such cables. All IMHO. ;)
I know Ali, I know! :)
Hence why I asked, such a noted improvement should be identifiable during measurement IE: TDR test
Indeed but it needs to correlate to something tangible doing so should cut out any 'mystique' about such cables. All IMHO. ;)
Why does it? :scratch:
4 guys heard it at the same time?
Pretty tangible no?
That was not my point, such a noted audible change between two cables should also be identifiable during measurement. You just saying it was better does not help me or anybody else who was not there. Russ Andrews says his cables offer an improvement as do other manufacturers...great I can try them all but I'd rather know what makes the difference so I can make an informed choice if i where to buy such a cable. Such information would no doubt make the purchase of digital cables much less of a lottery!
Ali Tait
05-11-2012, 15:23
Yep, can't argue with that. If you ask David, I'm sure he would send you one to.try at home.
That was not my point, such a noted audible change between two cables should also be identifiable during measurement. You just saying it was better does not help me or anybody else who was not there. Russ Andrews says his cables offer an improvement as do other manufacturers...great I can try them all but I'd rather know what makes the difference so I can make an informed choice if i where to buy such a cable. Such information would no doubt make the purchase of digital cables much less of a lottery!
I wouldn't know how a cable sounded from a set of measurements to be honest.
Home demo is the only thing that would be a good indicator imo.
Neither would I but thats not what I was saying! ;)
not sure what your saying mate tbh.
No worries though :)
Ali Tait
05-11-2012, 17:42
I think what Neal is saying is that the big difference we heard between the cables should be easily discernible through measurement, and that if we could see on the measurement what makes the cable sound good, we could apply it to other cables and remove the guesswork about which would sound good.
Ỳeah, got that but it was saying "it needs to correlate to something tangible" that confused me. :scratch:
Lee Henley
05-11-2012, 19:28
Cheers for having us over Tony, was an enjoyable day, and it was great to hear a pair of Quad 63's again. Fabulous speakers.
Dacs were - MF M1, Rega Dac, and my Nick Gorham valve special. I took along some cables too, a pair of TQ Black I/C's, an Oyaide silver digi cable and a MCRU Ultimate digi cable.
Quick take on the day, all dacs were good, but the valve dac again took the honours. Most noteworthy was the MCRU Ultimate, a large step up from the Supra Tony was using, and we all felt the cable made a bigger difference than any of the dacs.
As Gary noted, once we had the best sound of the day, it became all about the music and we forgot all about the kit. Just a great sound that you could happily listen to all day.
Nick Gorham valve Dac would love to hear that....,,..
Ali Tait
05-11-2012, 19:33
Mine is a prototype. I will be hearing the pukka version at the up upcoming Owston DIY meet.
Nick Gorham valve Dac would love to hear that....,,..
get your arse to owston dude, not that far really :)
weekend after next
it will be there
and it will shine!
Lee Henley
05-11-2012, 19:35
Where is Owston and what date?
Ali Tait
05-11-2012, 19:59
Here-
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari&q=owston+lodge+doncaster&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x4879125ac831cb43:0x90619cd71e95580a,Owston +Lodge,+Bentley,+Doncaster+DN5+0LP&gl=uk&ei=SRqYUK-uEqKh0QW9lIGgAg&ved=0CDIQ8gEwAA
17-18 Nov.
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