Naim based SS to valves

[Mike g]

Hey all

I have been a naim based person for the last 4 years when I got into this hifi lark seriously. Had various iterations and what I have now is probably the best yet- a pre/psu using teddy pardo super teddy regs into a modified nac42.5 with naim boards all feeding a pair of naim 110s in mono mode. Rest of kit is a pre-circus lp12/dyna 20xl/dyna p75 mk II and on the digital side a Sonos feeding a bushmaster (and what a dac that is!). Speakers are spendor s9e's and I use mogami speaker cables.

Whilst the above sounds great I have been toying with the idea of a valve amp for a while. I think my preference would be an integrated amp- I seem to spend a fair but of time dressing cables etc and trying to keep mains and interconnects separate an having had an integrated before like the idea of something that does it all in one box.

So a couple of questions....

1 what will be different if I did move to valves? and

2 what sort of valve amps should I be looking at? I know I need to go and try some amps (might try and go to Audio Emotion round the corner from where I live this morning- they stock valves). I had thought about trying an Eastern Electric amp.

Basically I am looking for a sideways move ie the equivalent of what I currently have but in valves.

[YNWaN]

A 1/ It entirely depends on which specific valve amp you try.

A 2/ See answer 1 :) - you only have about 30w p/c now, so you don't need a power house (just as well as that would be expensive) - most likely something push-pull.

[Ali Tait]

I'm not currently using a valve amp, but my pre and dac are valve. I do have a couple of valve amps but neither are working properly at the moment. You are welcome to have a listen sometime, just drop me a PM.

[Ali Tait]

BTW, just noticed there is a for sale thread for a Radford on here. If you are looking to get into valves and want a push pull amp you would have to go a looong way to better one of these.

[Sonority]

Mike,
I have a group of friends over in the US that have achieved just this.
If we can just re-wind slightly though - you are here in the Uk.
You want a 'sideways' move which suggests you do actually like a lot of what you already have.
I will take a stab at you like the speed (pace) the ryhythmic element and the overall timeing (the ubiquetous Naim PRAT?) but you would prefer a less 'in your face' presetation - hence valves may be a way to go.
Valves largely have the monniker of being somewhat warm & slow. Note - while I know of certain brands that are exactly this - I do not subscribe to it overall.
Your existing set is 'classic' Naim, and nigh on impossible to replicate in 'off the shelf' designs without some major changes in the overall charecter. You may like some of these changes - only you can decide on that via audition or have someone you trust help to guide you.
Now then - the guys in the States have a very useful 'semi tame' electrical engineer. Their Naim sets were ( and what remains of it by way of CD players) are from the very top end. They spent $$$$$$ on R&D and have ended up with what I can only describe as THE most linear, musical, fast, ultimate sound stage valve system that absolutely challenges the mind to say it's not ss. It is possible - but a fair bit of the technology is patented now. I have sat in complete wonderment a couple of times wishing I could get one here, (it is possible apparently) but logic tells me I love what I have now - so stick!
To my mind their sets are the embodiment in musical reproduction - at this moment in time, and they are entirely valve based. Yet they sound 'nothing' like a valve system I have heard anywhere else.
If you would like I would be happy to put you in touch - I am certain an integrated was made along the way?
I have said that ''I'' do not think you will find a valve setup that does what your existing set does off the shelf. Valves inherently do things differently!
Most Naim image badly, in some case no image at all. Your existing setup *can* be modded extensively to produce a different sound, and sounstaging can be massively influenced by various means.
I lived with a 32.5 / 250 full setup for 20+ years and loved it.
Only when I started to *experiment* did I discover what else it could do!
Whatever you do - enjoy the journey :)

[Mika K]

Yes as already suggested there are just as many sounding valve amps than there solid states. However the different valves have their own sonic advantages that can be usually heard in many designs. The quality of transformers is a key factor with valve amps, much more so than with the soli states.

Some valve types have quite enjoyable and plush characteristics but personally as an old Naim user myself I like EL84 tube a lot. Many times in decent push-pull configuration this valve is able to deliver quite nice rhythmic and punchy presentation still having those valve threats present as well. Perhaps one thing to start with.

[Reffc]

I'd agree with what YNWaN has already said. It depends entirely on the valve amp.

It also depends on the loudspeaker load, since with higher output impedance than a SS amp, the amplitude of the FR can vary across the spectrum where some valve amps meet difficult speaker load peaks for example and you do have to be careful with speaker damping (control) in the bass. The spendor's not a particularly difficult load but still requires grip in the bass.

The safest bet if you can would be to audition some push-pull valve amps of minimum 30 watts, preferably in Class A. They say that a good valve amp and a good SS amp should sound the same. That's partly true, but I've always found the tonality and smoothness of a good valve amp to be preferable. Be careful though. there's a lot of tat out there and perhaps it is worth asking yourself again why you think the move the valves will give you what you're after. What is it that's missing? With the Spendors I'd say that a fairly safe and economical bet to try (and you'd lose nothing come time to sell if it wasn't for you) would be something like a serviced leak Stereo 20.

[Ali Tait]

I do know of someone who went from all Naim to all valves. He now uses full range single driver speakers and builds his own valve amps and has never been happier.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Marco made this Naim to valve move too.
I'd second Ali on the Radford. Apart from being a fantastic amp, it's an ever more valuable investment.

[NRG]

To lessen the thermal shock(!) of moving away from Naim amplification I would start off by getting some dems with a PushPull KT88/6550 amp and take it from there...

[stewart]

Depends on your budget but if you visit Audio Emotion have a listen to the Luxman SQ38u.
Fantastic amp and has a great phono stage.

[DSJR]

Sorry to butt in and please feel free to correct me, but in this aspect I'm in agreement with Richard Dunn (:eek!:) It almost seems like a pendulum swing from bright and harsh (as most CB midle of range Naims are) to possibly warm and cuddly (as many valve amps still are). You're not necessarily going forwards, but to the other extreme. The Dynavector cartridge is "plump" enough as it is, so this will have to be factored in.

Obviously, I don't know what mono-ing the 110's will have done to their ankle-biter sonics, but whatever you do to a 42.5, it ain't ever going to be as good as a 72 IMO, let alone its replacement 102 (so long since I memorised the numbers I've forgotten exactly).

Since I doubt many of you lot know the S9e's, may I suggest that they are rather good passive speakers with I suspect a fairly difficult load since they're a three way. They can sound incredibly good and rather more dynamic than the lower S and Se series, but they'll need a decent amp, rather than a "fun" cheaper valve one. The high output impedance of any lower cost transformer coupled valve amp may not suit the Spendor bass units and crossover network very well, hence my caution!

My choice of valve amp is obviously limited by what I can hear these days, but I have been impressed with the Icon Audio £1600 and £2000 approx integrateds, which totally lack the grain and edge the OP has all but taken for granted in recent times and have a more modern valve-amp sound, clean and pure but with clean bass - must be the KT120's helping in this :-)

I should also say in all fairness to Naim (:eek:) that a set of serviced NAP135's are FAR better than any 110 or 140, whatever's been done to them and a really well sorted 250 is better as well, especially into the S9e's, which I do know rather well. CURRENT Naim amps are rather different again, the harshness of old only evident if these amps are pushed to clipping and beyond and the treble grain significantly reduced most of the time.

So, as well as valve (there are many "benefits" to affordable valves and not just sonics), have a listen to current Naim as well, since you may have quite a shock how much better it is to lower-caste thirty year old stuff (Nait 1 excepted)..

[wee tee cee]

I made the journey from naim to valves. Never been happier. I made the transition via t amps, sonically a half way house. A mini t or temple audio gold/bantum might let you bridge the gap....

[DSJR]

I made the journey from naim to valves. Never been happier. I made the transition via t amps, sonically a half way house. A mini t or temple audio gold/bantum might let you bridge the gap....

With deepest respect, NOT into S9e's..... IMO

[Mike g]

Thought I'd drop an update...firstly when I said a sideways move I meant similar price/build etc to my naim kit. I am not planning to go from my current set up (cost about £1100) to a £2k valve amp.

I nipped up to Audio Emotion where I met Mark. Firstly, what a nice bloke- spent an hour with me and one of his regulars, Douggie, talking all thinking valves- different amp makers and their typical sound how different valves affect things and letting me hear some music. If anyone is up this way I would highly recommend a visit- a great well kitted out shop and the kettle went on as soon as I arrived (it's all about priorities).

So I am now sitting in my living room with an a Eastern Electirc Minimax plugged in. I wanted to try this one as the great J7 recommended it. This is a new demo unit out the box and has been running for a couple of hours. Not as different to my own set up as I expected...very good punchy bass though some of the harshness of drums has been taken away. I feel it could do with opening up a bit but great sound staging and really really sings with some stuff I'm playing esp Rumours and the first Dead Weather album. Maybe struggles a little with very complicated pieces - something my own kit organises very well. Overall probably less detailed but more musical.

Seems to have no probs driving my speakers running of the 8 ohm tap.

Certainly giving me something to think about and looking forward to using it for a few days.

[wee tee cee]

With deepest respect, NOT into S9e's..... IMO

HO HUM,,,,

[DSJR]

Nothing ho-humm about it. Just in this case - in my opinion, knowing the speakers as I do and remembering how well they responded to bi-amping with meaty amps!!!!!!!

[AlexM]

For a new amp purchase, I suggest you look at the Rogue Chronus Magnum integrated amp with KT120 tubes. Absolutely fabulous sound for a bit of kit in that class, and very good VFM. It delivers up to 90w per channel, which is plenty for most.

have a look at this review for some more info:

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/rogue-audio-cronus-magnum-integrated-amplifier-tas-209-1/