View Full Version : Studiomonitors at home systems..
Lately have been again thinking about this a lot and would like to see some serious discussion for the subject. For some enthusiasts the subject is more or less tabu but I actually find it rather interesting.
I have had few different smaller studiomonitors in my system during the years, perhaps Yamaha NS-1000M's being as the most popular ones. They sure did the job well with proper system matching and I still somehow miss their transparency and detailed presentation. Below pic of my old Yams with their custom made stands.. :)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4061/4464820107_4504853163.jpg
Lately have been thinking whether to update my huge Altec based horn system to something bit modern and not so bulky one like Avantgarde Unos or Acapella LaCampanella horns. The Altecs sound really nice but still are old and not so truthful that someone might like them to be. As have been thinking that this might be longterm investment have been also thinking could a different solution also be the one to consider. Like getting some bigger active ATC models for neutral and competent speaker-end and the using the sources and amplification to adjust the sound according to your own preferences. Even going back to Yams with two high quality subwoofers might be an option despite not being so WAF-friendly one.
.. so any opinions for the subject in general? How many are actually using ATC's or other speakers with studiomonitor heritage and what are your impressions?
Hello Mika,
You raise an interesting question and one for which there is no correct answer.
I think you need to consider what aspects of sound reproduction are important to you and choose a speaker system that fulfills these requirements as best as possible. No single speaker can (as yet) do it all.
What do you want: transparancy; neutrality; good dynamics; realistic soundstage and imaging; good depth and 3D portrayal of the performers; a big 'in your face' sound; a good sense of the acoustic in which the performance was made; ...... ?
There are several members here who use Tannoy and Altec speakers who may be able to help you.
For me, I tend to shy away from anything promoted as a 'studio monitor', since in my experience and to my ears, such speakers are ruthlessly revealing and analytical but are far from neutral. Studio engineers are looking for faults, it's not so important if tonal fidelity is missing.
Clearly this won't have answered your question, but it might have prompted you to assess your requirements.
Regards
Hi Barry. I might presented this somehow poorly as I'm not waiting any recommendations, ready made solutions for my personal speaker search or definitive answers which approach is better. I'm aware that there are several roads out there that are not all leading necessary to Rome :)
Just thought that having some discussion and opinions of the people who have thought the different aspects and approaches for this might be interesting. Made a small edit to the first post if it helps..
Wakefield Turntables
30-10-2012, 13:10
Look at my signature I use atc preamp and active asl50s very very good speakers. They show up bad recordings and are very truthful in reproduction I think.
Great to have someone here with those speakers :)
Could you share us your thoughts why ended up to this solution and what are the pros and cons of the "studio monitor approach" instead of some other ones? No need to discuss strictly about the ATC as at least I'm more interested of the general aspect..
purite audio
30-10-2012, 13:39
Mika Hi, I have both horns ,and Genelec 8260a studio monitors with subs, they do sound different mostly in the character of the bass. Modern monitors like the Gens, have active DSPcand room correction so in many respects you can tailor the sound of them to your preference.
Their only drawback is that because everything, A/D,D/A amps DSP crossovers ,attenuation is built in there isn't much to fiddle with!
KR Keith.
I'm actually pretty familiar with Genelec speakers and also their new DSP models like 8260. Last spring when visited their factory at Iisalmi we had a session with several models including a training session for the GLM software for the DSP models. It was a really nice day with lot of listening music with different monitors at very nice treated auditoriums and listening rooms.
Actually had my Shindo Aurieges MM preamp with me and have to say that with the old school 1038B main monitors the sound was absolutely stunning. They in practice destroyed all the other speakers we had in the lineup with their combination of dynamics but with finesse. Perhaps this has something to do with my recent thoughts for possibly going active.. :D
You're going to have to go and do some listening methinks...
Two sort-of generic characteristics of mid size "studio" monitors is that they tend to have a lifted, "hyped" upper midband and I was shocked to discover that many modern ATC's seem to exhibit this now, something the mid 90's examples didn't to any great extent. The NS1000's do to a tiny degree (although nothing like as bad as the NS10's and their modern brethren of a similar size). The NS1000's were recommended to be used with tweeter backed off a bit and the mid dome a bit more and I confirmed this with my pair, but you may disagree with this..
The other thing with some of these speakers is that they don't seem to come to life unless they're being thrashed to death at more "realistic" volume levels. The very best don't seem to do this in my experience and this is one area where Tannoy's numerous models of varying sizes and prices may be an ideal starting point. Genelecs do get positive vibes from friends in the recording and broadcast industry as do "some" of the Dynaudio pro models, which I find too cold and "clinical" in the domestic models I've heard.
One final shout from me - Adam have crossover models (Hamish here has a pair of Tensors I believe and rates them really highly) which may be an excellent choice. The pro versions aren't as pretty, but they cost a lot less ;)
Me? I'd love to hear these -
http://www.spacoustics.co.uk/pro.html
ATC 100 Tower prices, but some of the best drivers in the business right now (as shouted by AVI's Ashley, but don't let that put you off :lol:) and promise of supreme and natural clarity at all volume levels....
Good luck and PLEASE keep us all posted on where you go with this :)
purite audio
30-10-2012, 16:53
I have never had ATCs at home, so I won't comment, but the Gens have a completely flat frequency response, so no hyped anything, tonally they are extremely similar to my horns ,Cessaro Alphas, the built in room correction sets a flat frequency response, I find listeners are accustomed to rolled off high frequencies .
The room correction allows you to do more or less anything with the FR, ATCs are obviously a much older design.
Keith.
KMR have. pair of the SPA speakers, they are passive, sounded ok.
Try these. I can’t afford them. If I could, I would.
I like the pro audio sound, if it really has one, but it isn’t for everyone.
They do benefit from matching subs if those last few Hz are important to you.
I thought that even those who prefer a slightly softer focus couldn’t help liking these
A seriously decent offering from people who know about building drivers and matching them to powerful reliable electronics. :)
http://www.quested.com/products-v3110.html
Rothchild
30-10-2012, 19:42
Yamaha NS10s were originally released as a hifi speaker. The general concensus is that they're not used due to a 'pretty' audio aesthetic but because they produce repeatable results in a range of different rooms. My home-made 'killertone' speakers serve a very similar function, they're actually very engaging to listen to, when you know how.
I'd be interested to know what real differences there are between my 'studio' PMC TB1s and the 'domestic' signature series (aside from the wood finish) really are, I suspect they're pretty minimally different really.
If you can find an unthrashed pair, the original Alesis M1 (mk1) actives were very good and could be tailored to suit your room through the judicicious use of rolled up socks in the ports (not very hifi but it worked!) I worked on the Mk2s too but found them to be a bit cheap by comparison.
There's some reasonable scholarship around the NS10 phenomena here:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep08/articles/yamahans10.htm
and this corresponding paper has some interesting test results showing the responses of various types of speakers, interesting to note the 'overhang' caused on the waterfall plots by the ports on those speakers that have them and how much more even the response of closed boxes are (which was probably why I prefered my M1s with socks in...) http://www.soundonsound.com/pdfs/ns10m.pdf
From what I've heard of them I really enjoyed Dynaudio monitors
Wakefield Turntables
30-10-2012, 19:47
Great to have someone here with those speakers :)
Could you share us your thoughts why ended up to this solution and what are the pros and cons of the "studio monitor approach" instead of some other ones? No need to discuss strictly about the ATC as at least I'm more interested of the general aspect..
Mika,
I wanted the active ATC's because of the fact they are tri-amped. I'd been using a bi-amped quad 77 setup with Quad 22L's and loved the sound. I tried some Harbeth's, and even some B&W 801's but I found what I wanted with the ATC's. I wanted a clinical, incisive sound, something that didnt colour or gloss over the music. They are BRUTALLY honest speakers. I like to hear whats on the vinyl. Poor recordings stick out like a sore thumb. Great recordings are truly 3D with musicians sitting at various places in the soundstage. Coupled with the 1210 its an awesome package. If your looking for a speaking that is less than 100% brutally honest with a recording I would suggest looking for something other than the ATC's.
A
kininigin
30-10-2012, 22:57
If you can find an unthrashed pair, the original Alesis M1 (mk1) actives were very good and could be tailored to suit your room through the judicicious use of rolled up socks in the ports (not very hifi but it worked!) I worked on the Mk2s too but found them to be a bit cheap by comparison.
Not sure the op would ditch his current speakers for a pair of budget actives, with socks stuffed into them!! :D
Yeah, both NS-10's and M1's are familiar speakers to me. NS-10's are something that might give to my worst enemy and M1's pretty ok but still not something in my scope at the moment. :)
I'm bit questioning myself that could I live happily with big and competent studio monitors for long period of time? If I would get tired to the truthful presentation of the speakers how easy it would be to tame this with the front-end changes? I have no answer for this at the moment, so I guess next step is to try to longer some high quality speakers with studio monitor heritage..
Lodgesound
31-10-2012, 14:32
Hi Mika;
I use Rogers/BBC LS 5/8 monitors together with their partnering Quad 405-2 amplifiers.
I first heard a pair at 16 when I was shown around the BBC - I later worked there and was eventually able to afford a pair.
Out of all the speakers I have ever heard they are the most pleasing and least fatiguing to listen to. They sound good at whatever level you play them and they can go VERY loud - they can play comfortably at 120 dB SPL without distortion (actually dangerous in the home as they do not sound loud - a phenomenon you will be familiar with when dealing with very high end monitors).
I am exhibiting a pair at Scalford next march togther with a variety of analogue and digital tape recorders.
The Black Adder
31-10-2012, 15:20
A recent addition for me:
From Toe Rag Studios
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/LOCKWOODS/3217872208_da40291040_b.jpg
To my pad...
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/LOCKWOODS/DSC06951copy.jpg
A recent addition for me:
From Toe Rag Studios
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/LOCKWOODS/3217872208_da40291040_b.jpg
To my pad...
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/LOCKWOODS/DSC06951copy.jpg
Which is why I would endorse Mika's thought: "next step is to try to longer some high quality speakers with studio monitor heritage.."
(emphasis is mine)
I think it better to go for those speakers that by dint of good design were chosen by recording and broadcast studios, rather than for those that were specifically designed for the task.
Not exactly what I was thinking with this thread - have owned few Tannoy DCs myself, the small Dovers the latest. Those speakers have their pros and cons, over all not what Iäm looking for as my Altecs are smewhat at the same side of the pond. Also have been lurking those big Spendors and Harbeths for years. SP100 and its new incarnations were once one of my dream speakers. Also one of my friend had M40.1's and I really liked those a lot. I think also SHL5 is really capable of delivering the goods.
Btw, anyone heard this one those beautiful new LS 3/6 versions by Stirling?
Anyway of going to change something most likely will go bit further than BBC heritage. Never say never thou.. :)
Lodgesound
01-11-2012, 12:54
Lord Blackadder;
Am I to understand that you purchased these from Toe Rag studios?
If you did has the studio closed down now?
hoopsontoast
01-11-2012, 13:02
One of my favorite monitor style speaker was the ATC SCM10, overall I prefer them to the SCM7 which use the same mid-bass driver. The treble was a lot smoother on the 10's over the 7's.
The one thing that I loved with the 7/10's was the mid-range transparency, tight bass and stable mid-range at higher levels.
FWIW, I prefer the 7's and 10's to the 11,19 and 40's. Heard the 50ASL's a few times and always been impressed!
The Black Adder
01-11-2012, 15:49
Lord Blackadder;
Am I to understand that you purchased these from Toe Rag studios?
If you did has the studio closed down now?
Baldrick... ;)
I didn't purchase them directly from Toe Rag, they came to me via two other people but I did my research on them and contacted Liam at Toe Rag and he confirmed that they are the actual cabinets which I'm really chuffed about as they have been kicking out some of my fave stuff for over 10 years now (through these actual untis). Recently found that this model with the none-detachable fronts and chrome bezels are rare as hens teeth apparently.
See here: A Universal discovery (http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20188)
Before then they were at CTS studios in London in the projection room.
Toe Rag are still going as far as I know.
The problem with this kind of discussion (the topic! not the contributions... :) ) is the un-asked question: 'what is a "Studio Monitor" '
Before people can discuss studio monitors in use in the home, you must define what one is...
Many many people have an automatic association with studio monitors as something that is overly bright, in your face, 'hyper detailed' etc etc. That is their own definition. Yet that has nothing whatsoever to do with the real world.
Tannoys are "Studio Monitors", Tandberg Studio Monitors (very lush and rich), Acoustic Energy AE1, ATCs, NS1000s, Urei monitors, old Altec Lansing models, ls3/5as, Harbeth, many old Rogers, Spendors, B&W 801 - 805s, Kef 105s, AR 18s, Dunlavy, Quad 63s etc etc
There are many engineers out there who all have different tastes and choose different types of speaker to monitor their music.
If you're talking about semi-pro market then you're talking about what some industry trend is for a model "studio monitor" which is no different to a modern trend in mid-range hifi sound. It is trend based and has changed over the years.
If your talking about big studios where the choice of monitor is determined by the best deal they can get from a mass manufacturer and what they then push on the studio, that again is a completely different matter, not related to sound.
Mostly, an engineer just has to get to know his speakers well enough to determine what a mix will sound like. If he/she's moving from studio to studio, then you end up with trends like the NS10 where no-one can quite remember why it ever became the norm, but now that it can be found everywhere it is a good reference point to get to know.
The basic criteria for a good monitor is for it to be a good speaker, not to smear and dullify the music so that too much of the sound is lost. All other criteria like frequency response flatness etc is essentially in the mind, something chosen through thought experiment but not through practical experience.
A good engineer will simply choose a monitor that sounds good to them!
Studio engineers are looking for faults, it's not so important if tonal fidelity is missing.
It depends what their intentions are.
If they have been given a mix and been asked to clear it up of certain things, then perhaps.
If they want to make a recording so that it sounds great, one that shows off tonal fidelity for example, then they will do that on a speaker and system they know well, one they know they can enjoy immensly and try to get the recording to also sound as amazing as the best material they have ever heard on that system.
The most amazing studio monitors I've seen used were in a PFMer's professional mastering studio before he moved back to Australia.
They were some Alon Phalanx's with Poseidon subs (almost as high as the speakers) and in his case with some very large external x-overs.
Unfortunately he'd already sold the amps so I didn't get to hear them.
Again, just some hi-end hifi, not marketed as studio monitors at all.
The problem with this kind of discussion..
I don't see this as a problem at all.
The whole discussion about speakers is anyway highly subjective so you do not need any clear reference point or definion for what studio monitor is. Everyone may have their own idea for this and are still very welcome to chime in.
Just like many other threads here as long as you are able to handle different point of views and don't consider things to be the truth and nothing but the truth, there is big change for us to see some interesting discussions..
I don't see this as a problem at all.
The whole discussion about speakers is anyway highly subjective so you do not need any clear reference point or definion for what studio monitor is. Everyone may have their own idea for this and are still very welcome to chime in.
Just like many other threads here as long as you are able to handle different point of views and don't consider things to be the truth and nothing but the truth, there is big change for us to see some interesting discussions..
Good point Mika.. Seeing in a different way, I agree.
One common trait of a speaker designed from the outset for studio use is utilitarian looks and a corresponding lower price or higher material value. In the secondhand market this is even more significant.
Personally I like the contrast of a utilitarian speaker in a home setting and it does mark you out more as being into the sound IMO which I have to admit can bring feelings of slight geeky smugness of which i'm not proud..
Two studio monitors i've held on to are B&W Matrix 805 (as used in Abbey Road mastering suite) and Acoutsic Energy AE2 Pro. The 805 has a wonderfully open and natural sound, no boxy sounds at all. The AE2 Pro has a tactility to the sound (transient response?) that i've not found on anything else yet, although lacks 'air'. The latter is definately in the utilitarian camp, complete with built in flying hardware for hanging from the ceiling.
walpurgis
02-11-2012, 10:27
Hi Mika,
it would be a shame to part with your Altecs.
Have you considered modernising them? Extra internal cabinet bracing, better and more modern internal damping naterials and updated crossover components and internal wiring should bring about an improvement. The use of a pair of modern super-tweeters may be an idea too.
Geoff.
I've recently read that the original M805 (said to be the best generation of them all apparently) had three versions. The black ones were the most neutral and used by studios and the walnut ones were supposedly a tad warmer toned for domestic use. I've only ever heard the walnut ones and found them very good, if a tad juicy in the bass compared to my then favourite ATC SCM20 passives.
Have you considered modernising them?
My Altecs have already being modernised - cabinets are new based on Jean Hiragas studys, crossover is custom made from HQ parts and use them with quality internal wiring from Ocellia. Have also those modern composite horns and pretty expensive supertweeters in use.
Despite the sound being already very good I have some improvement ideas mostly for internal bracing and horn stand/support. This thread does not necessary mean I'm departing these as there are many things to consider.. :)
I've recently read that the original M805 (said to be the best generation of them all apparently) had three versions. The black ones were the most neutral and used by studios and the walnut ones were supposedly a tad warmer toned for domestic use. I've only ever heard the walnut ones and found them very good, if a tad juicy in the bass compared to my then favourite ATC SCM20 passives.
Where did you read that? I'd be interested to read it too.. Maybe it was just the one sentence though.
My first pair (which amazed me at the time, a revelation in non-box colouration) was a studio, horizontal pair with the tweeter mounted on the long side. My current pair were supposedly a B&W employee pair which had been covered by hand in leatherette, no serial nos and a plain MDF front baffle hidden by the covers.
Those ive seen photos of at Abbey Road were regular hifi Walnut veneered versions.
The Matrix tweeter is certainly very special, sound very sweet and feels like it extends forever somehow ( might just be because the treble rises slightly at the extreme rather than more usual rolling off..).
My Altecs have already being modernised - cabinets are new based on Jean Hiragas studys, crossover is custom made from HQ parts and use them with quality internal wiring from Ocellia. Have also those modern composite horns and pretty expensive supertweeters in use.
Despite the sound being already very good I have some improvement ideas mostly for internal bracing and horn stand/support. This thread does not necessary mean I'm departing these as there are many things to consider.. :)
Combining the recent posts, perhaps you could try a matrix style bracing.
walpurgis
02-11-2012, 11:14
My Altecs have already being modernised - cabinets are new based on Jean Hiragas studys, crossover is custom made from HQ parts and use them with quality internal wiring from Ocellia. Have also those modern composite horns and pretty expensive supertweeters in use.
Despite the sound being already very good I have some improvement ideas mostly for internal bracing and horn stand/support. This thread does not necessary mean I'm departing these as there are many things to consider.. :)
Good for you Mika, you are already ahead of me.
I always liked the older Altecs, particularly the big VOT models. A massive sound!
The Altecs certainly have they own thing going on, godda admit.
One of my fellow enthusiasts here in Finland I sold long time ago the Yamaha NS-1000M custom made stands informed me that he is going to swap speakers soon. He did this as we agreed that I have 1st dibs to the stands if he decides to get rid of them.
However as he's buying the next speakers directly with cash he said he will then later sell the Yams relatively cheap. They are quite nice looking specimens and have already their crossover caps updated. Perhaps might be interested also to get me those..
I'd really like to know what replacement crossover caps actually do to NS1000's, since the high resistance of the originals would have been factored in to the original design. having said that, I remember a designer being pleasantly surprised when his third/fourth order crossover electrolytic caps were replaced with poly types - and these weren't even in the direct signal path!!!!! :)
It may have been said earlier, but a main requirement for pro monitors back in the day before nearfields took over, was that they could withstand ear-bursting volume levels day after day without risk of blow-up, never more than the 70's when I suspect everyone in the control room was as high as a kite and had no idea how loud "loud" actually was :lol: I'm told these days that the huge in-wall things left over from yesteryear are only used to impress clients these days, and that all modern mixing is done on much smaller mid and nearfield types - probably why so many full-range recordings are often found lacking these days?
When those huge old speakers are removed though, they're often massive bargains..
Was a pair of Quested speakers using ATC units plus seperate 18" bass enclosures on eBay a while ago, selling for just £1200 or so, with amps, listed a few times with diminishing starting bids. If I'd had the space, I'd have found the money somehow.
I'd really like to know what replacement crossover caps actually do to NS1000's, since the high resistance of the originals would have been factored in to the original design. having said that, I remember a designer being pleasantly surprised when his third/fourth order crossover electrolytic caps were replaced with poly types - and these weren't even in the direct signal path!!!!! :)
I have compared two pairs of NS1000's at my friends system at the time when he performed the first replacement for the crossover caps. The difference was not subtle I can tell you that - better transients/dynamics and also more transparency added to the package. He immediately updated the other pair as well and sold that to fund new NS1000X's, which he also updated.. :D
I've heard the same that the huge in-wall things are like dinosaurs and to impress clients, but Iä'm pretty sure there are exceptions also..
I have compared two pairs of NS1000's at my friends system at the time when he performed the first replacement for the crossover caps. The difference was not subtle I can tell you that - better transients/dynamics and also more transparency added to the package. He immediately updated the other pair as well and sold that to fund new NS1000X's, which he also updated.. :D
I've heard the same that the huge in-wall things are like dinosaurs and to impress clients, but Iä'm pretty sure there are exceptions also..
Always exceptions... Glad to hear the cap change did so much, as the NS1000's could sound a bit "dead" and "synthetic" in stock trim. Doing the cap change may have answered that.
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