Is high frequency noise causing me to have hearing problems?

[joethebus]

Just wonderin'

I had a very noisy laptop a year or so ago and when I used it for long periods I found I got a kind of interference noise, a ringing in my ears - when I got rid of it the symptoms disappeared.

I have been experimenting a bit lately and have quite a lot of kit, two mac minis, a PC server and another PC all on in my listening room/office, and while I don't hear much in the way of noise from them I'm beginning to suffer the same symptoms again. I'm wondering whether something's making a noise I can't hear that's affecting my ears.

I read not so long ago an article in which Tim de Paravicini states that though high frequency noise is said to be inaudible it's not at all difficult to provoke tinnitus by playing tones beyond the audible frequencies. Is this what I'm doing to myself?

I have about my person a Behringer 8000 mic and an Onyx mixer. Could I straightforwardly (ie with not a lot of technical knowledge) rig up the aforesaid to measure what's going on in my room beyond the audible spectrum? If so what software would I need and how would I go about using it, i.e. figuring out which bit(s) of kit is(are) the culprit(s). I'm not very good with software - I'll need quite a lot of help I reckon.

If there's anyone out there who can make sense of my predicament and has the knowledge to help me through finding whether that's indeed happening, and would advise me how to find out what's causing the problem (so I can bin that kit or at least put it in another room) I'd be most grateful.

Thank you good peeps.

Joe

[Reid Malenfant]

When you got rid of the laptop I'm assuming that the power supply went with it to? ;)

You appear to be surrounded by what are likely to be switch mode power supplies powering most of your kit, or the computers at the very least.

One problem with using a load of SMPS together is that they aren't all switching at exactly the same frequency. In expensive SMPS powered equipment they are generally slaved off of a single unit so they all switch together.

If they aren't slaved then they can beat a new frequency off of each other. If you can imagine one switching at say 26KHz & another at 25KHz, it's quite possible that you may well hear the result of this, because the difference is 1KHz which can be heard.

With more units things become vastly more complex & I guess they could well generate a lot of high frequency noise.


Another possibility is one happens to be running at a lower frequency than it was designed to, if that's the case it may well just be out of the audible band or even in it at the limits of your hearing.

[Barry]

Just wonderin'

I had a very noisy laptop a year or so ago and when I used it for long periods I found I got a kind of interference noise, a ringing in my ears - when I got rid of it the symptoms disappeared.

I have been experimenting a bit lately and have quite a lot of kit, two mac minis, a PC server and another PC all on in my listening room/office, and while I don't hear much in the way of noise from them I'm beginning to suffer the same symptoms again. I'm wondering whether something's making a noise I can't hear that's affecting my ears.

I read not so long ago an article in which Tim de Paravicini states that though high frequency noise is said to be inaudible it's not at all difficult to provoke tinnitus by playing tones beyond the audible frequencies. Is this what I'm doing to myself?

I have about my person a Behringer 8000 mic and an Onyx mixer. Could I straightforwardly (ie with not a lot of technical knowledge) rig up the aforesaid to measure what's going on in my room beyond the audible spectrum? If so what software would I need and how would I go about using it, i.e. figuring out which bit(s) of kit is(are) the culprit(s). I'm not very good with software - I'll need quite a lot of help I reckon.

If there's anyone out there who can make sense of my predicament and has the knowledge to help me through finding whether that's indeed happening, and would advise me how to find out what's causing the problem (so I can bin that kit or at least put it in another room) I'd be most grateful.

Thank you good peeps.

Joe

Can't say if your PC is the source of ultrasonic noise, however whilst you might not be able to hear it, it will be perceived - and could initiate tinnitus.

I would suggest all TVs, PCs and all non-audio gear should not be in the same room as your audio system. If you rely on downloads as your source (stored on a hard disc), then you will have a problem.

Does your Behringer microphone have a high frequency response? (> 20kHz). If it does you could connect it to an oscilloscope and possibly measure the ultrasonic interference.

[AlexM]

Joe,

I suggest you get yourself referred to an audiologist as you may well be experiencing tinnitus. I don't know if it can be caused or correlated with your use of particular bits of kit, but you should really get it checked professionally to see if there is a medical issue requiring treatment.

Regards and good luck!.
Alex

[nat8808]

When they eyes are exposed to too much of one colour, the brain kind of compensates and turns everything around so that that colour then becomes the norm. Move away from that coloured light and then everything looks the opposite, the compensation your brain has been doing still remains for a while (for example, after wearing yellow/brown tinted sunglasses, when you take them off the world looks a bit green-y blue for while).

Could all this white noise of whooshing fans from the gear be causing your brain to compensate (hence you've learned not to notice it now) and so when moving to silence this compensation is kind of revealed by the ringing in your ears?

Basically, the brain does all sort of tricks to make the current environment become the norm so that you can notice differences in it easily. It will take a while for your brain to then re-calibrate to what should be the real norm of silence.

Time to put the computers in another room, a cupboard or make a sound proof cabinet (with all the air flow you need). Can try installing silent fans too and all the cooling tricks you can find.

[joethebus]

Hmmm ... Well, thank you for your responses, gentlemen.

Thank you Mark, I hadn't thought about the power supplies, I was just thinking about fan and motor noise. By the time I add in a CD player, two power amps, the printer, scanner, various stand-alone hard discs and battery chargers, etcetera I find I have 35 13A plugs in use and almost all are driving power supplies of some sort I guess! So there's the potential for quite a lot of the noise you describe, then. The laptop power supply went with the laptop, by the way.

Thank you for your thoughts too, Alex. I think that as the symptoms pretty much disappear when I'm out walking with the dogs but crowd in again as soon as I get back into my room suggests I can be reasonably confident about my self diagnosis. The last thing I want right now is some dude in a white coat telling me I have an incurable hearing problem! I think that for the time being anyway I'll bounce ideas around with a bunch of nice folk probably not so very different from me, at least some of whom'll know exactly what I'm on about and may have found a cure.

What a scary thought, though. You don't see any warnings on the packets. Does anyone know whether this phenomenon is documented anywhere, or am I the only one who's suffering this way? Has anyone else on the forum had tinnitus or whatever it is thus caused?

Right, so what to do then.

Putting all the kit in another room's going to be a major pain, as is building an enormous insulated and ventilated box to house all the electrical stuff; and I shudder to think of the implications regarding cable runs. Attenuating high frequency sounds shouldn't be all that hard though, should it?

Can I quantify the problem though; if I'm going to put a fair amount of effort into completely re-structuring my room, which I was thinking I had pretty well sorted - well acoustically anyway - it would be quite nice to be sure about what I am trying to prevent. Understanding what frequencies are doing the damage, quantifying them and where they are coming from would also allow me to think in an intelligent and informed way about whether it's better to eject a lot of stuff, build insulated boxes or invest in a giant power supply and put in a low voltage wiring circuit, or look elsewhere for a solution.

The ECM8000 mic box says its bandwidth is 15Hz to 20kHz. Is that a bandwidth that's likely to cover the offending frequencies? Is there some way that with the equipment I have, using Audacity or Audiogate or some other off-the-shelf software, I can wave the mic at the various boxes to narrow down the field, at least in the short term so I can work in this room?

Does anyone know what the offending frequencies are likely to be? Would I need to calibrate the mic signals for them to be meaningful? How would I go about doing that, would I need a dB meter?

As I type this I'm pretty desperate to come up with something sooner rather than later to at least reduce the effect. Switching everything off would help I'm sure, but that's not really an option as my listening room is my office and I have a whole summer's worth of admin work, probably weeks rather than days, that I must catch up with and I do use most of the equipment, at least from time to time!

I'm most grateful for your responses so far. I feel I may not be the only geezer in this boat and hope that if this thread generates some class A information, then several of us will benefit in the longer term.

Joe

[synsei]

Following on from Marks comments, it is entirely possible that harmonics are being produced by the differing frequencies of the various SMPS supplies interacting with each other. Again, the microphone and oscilloscope solution should determine if this is the case.

[Elephantears]

Just a brief related note; the manager or the building in which I live recently had a sonic device installed in the attic to repel squirrels. It was supposed to be inaudible to humans. When he switched it on it emitted an extremely high pitched whine that made me wince and then became inaudible. However during the time it was installed I was getting frequent headaches and I was glad when he took it out. I have no way of proving any relation, it may have been incidental, but I do think its very likely that ultrasonic noises have effects on us, whether minimal or significant.

[AlanS]

Joe,

I suggest you get yourself referred to an audiologist as you may well be experiencing tinnitus. I don't know if it can be caused or correlated with your use of particular bits of kit, but you should really get it checked professionally to see if there is a medical issue requiring treatment.

Regards and good luck!.
Alex

+1

[technobear]

I blame decades of exposure to CRT televisions :(

[Giubanix]

I've had tinnitus for 25 years. In all that time it's been very mild - I could hear it if I deliberately listened to it, otherwise I wouldn't even notice it.

Early this year it suddenly got much more noticable, bad enough to be a distraction if I was listening to quiet music. The obvious culprit was the blood pressure tablets I'd started on a couple of months before. Ringing in the ears was listed as a possibe (though very rare) side effect. I got the doc to switch me onto a different type of meds, but no improvement. My brain still insists that there's a constant high pitched shimmering noise going on non stop.

I started trying to think what else might have changed to cause the tinnitus to worsen dramatically after sitting idle for 25 years? Well, I'd just bought quite a few new bits and pieces all powered by these bloody smps. I had 5 or 6 of them powered up 24/7. So, I switched all of them off to see what happened. After 2 weeks of living without my new toys there was absolutely no improvement, so it looked like the power supplies weren't the answer in my case.

I replaced most of the cheap switch mode supplies with upgraded linear ones out of desperation, but I'm still suffering with the tinnitus and have pretty much given up on listening over the speakers. At least on headphones, even fairly quietly, because the music is close up too, the tinnitus is much less intrusive. Seems like something some of us just have to put up with.

[The Black Adder]

I have heard that some people sleep with a de-tuned tv signal, snow / static on low volume. It apparently cancels out certain frequencies and help you sleep.

[dave2010]

Joe,

I suggest you get yourself referred to an audiologist as you may well be experiencing tinnitus. I don't know if it can be caused or correlated with your use of particular bits of kit, but you should really get it checked professionally to see if there is a medical issue requiring treatment.

Regards and good luck!.
AlexI am interested in this, as I'm curious as to whether there is really any treatment for tinnitus. I sometimes get similar problems to the our OP here.

I'm not sure if what I experience is really tinnitus - it seems more like a sort of rushing noise, or high frequency white/pink noise. Occasionally, but not too often, I do hear whistles - which usually only last for a few seconds. I believe that "real" tinnitus sufferers hear whistles of fairly definite pitch, though this may vary (swoops up and down?) and that these may go on for a long while. Think Smetana - string quartet - for high pitched whistles.

In my case I think that continued exposure to certain noises makes things worse - such as going on aircraft (I always try to wear earplugs, or use noise cancelling headphones), and even driving. Sometimes things get worse if I use headphones a lot - I find that after a few hours I need a rest - and I don't have the levels very high - I'm aware of the potential hearing damage.

If I relax, and don't worry about things, then these noise effects which I hear often just disappear.

So - my final question - which is really the same as the opening - is there any point in having one's ears checked as I doubt that there is a "cure" anyway?

[joethebus]

The symptoms I have been trying to describe are like yours, Dave - only you have made a better job of describing them. It's a relief to be not the only one suffering thus, also to hear that for you too the effect seems to come and go; implying that getting a better understanding of what's going on and what are the causes should make it possible to devise a management strategy for mitigation and so live happily ever after.

Which is what I'm after!

Thinking back I remember I used to get similar symptoms when I was doing lighting in a film and television studio the late 80s; I'd routinely spend all day, they were long days at that, sitting in front of and close to a 20" grade 1 CRT Sony vision monitor (not to mention right next to the lighting fader rack!) studying the images very carefully trying to notice any lighting anomalies. I don't watch much TV these days - Formula 1 on BBC only (can't bring myself to support anything Murdoch's involved with) and Downton Abbey (which is more about sharing with 'er indoors than the actual programme) though we do still have a CRT telly 'cos I don't think the flat screen jobbies are any better yet. Maybe the effects that occurred way back then were due to the CRT I was working with (thanks for suggesting that Chris) rather than the combination of wind-noise from the old Mk II Jaguar I was hammering up and down the M3/A303 in every weekend and the pressure of having one, then two, then three, then four kids to provide for. As now the effect came and went; when we were all able to get away as a family for a few days relaxation the imagined high pitched whistling gradually calmed down and then went away completely.

I worry now though because the noise doesn't calm down very quickly at all when I'm out of my room, and I don't like this assertion that tinnitus is incurable; the last thing I want is an intolerance to being in a room with a computer or sound equipment in it that, like an intolerance to wheat, say, caused by years of slightly excessive wheat consumption at every meal ends up with an inability to tolerate any foods with gluten in them and thus great inconvenience. I greatly fear such a phenomenon, as I'm devoting more and more time to getting my music playback systems and library sorted out and listening to music!

So back to where I was in the OP. I have a Behringer ECM8000 mic I bought because I want to get to grips with room correction - but haven't used yet; and I have a Mackie Onyx 820i that does great digital file playback through firewire but again have not yet really got to grips with. I allow my kids and their friends to do all that! I also have a Korg MR2 portable recorder I don't know how to use either - all were bought fairly recently and I'm planning to get competent in their use later in the winter, my off season, when I'll have some time to spare.

I'm after a little encouragement please, peeps, and some pragmatic help fixing this kit up so I can use it, especially comments from folk who maybe have experience of these effects and have found ways to mitigate them on themselves and can offer me practical help and technical guidance.

What are the frequencies that cause these symptoms (Mark, Chris)? At what kind of level do the ultrasonic signals have to be for the symptoms to kick in, how do I measure the those levels? Would I be able to measure particular pieces of equipment on my shelves with the kit I have and confirm it's likely those particular bits having the undesirable effect (so I can attenuate or remove them)? What software should I be using so I can see what's happening? Does anyone out there have experience of using the software for this purpose and can they tell me how to use it?

I would attempt to find all this out for myself - except that it would take me forever and I suspect much of the groundwork has already been done by someone somewhere who would willingly share their experiences; and also I have quite a busy schedule with work I have to get done before the end of December and don't have the time to go off at a tangent right now. On the other hand I don't like the idea of spending any more time damaging myself than I absolutely need to, I feel I gotta do something!

So thank you, guys, for the contributions so far. A bit of hardcore, detailed advice would be handy now if anyone out there can spare it.

Joe

[Firebottle]

You can download various free s/w to turn your PC into an oscilloscope, using the sound card as the source.
I tried http://www.zeitnitz.de/Christian/scope_en

This can also give you a frequency spectrum display up to 20KHz;

Cheers, Alan

[AlanS]

Unfortunately OP is needing to look above 20kHz which neither his microphone nor your software do. Most non professional audio kit doesnt.

OP please seek professional help in stead of playing with your new friends maybe wasting your time on an area you have low understanding in (acoustics). Qu how many Hz are there in an octave?

[joethebus]

Thank you for the advice about where to find oscilloscope software, Alan (Firebottle). It won't help me with this quest, though; according to AlanS, apparently the guilty frequencies are 20kHz+ which my microphone and that software won't detect. I'm sure it will be useful when I get to spending a bit of time with my new toys later in the winter, so I am grateful to you.

So what exactly is the kind of professional help you are suggesting I seek then, AlanS?

I go to my doctor, tell him my ears are ringing in one particular room and persuade him to refer me to an audiologist because I think there's something going on in that room, maybe a piece or pieces of kit are emitting excessive noise at ultrasonic frequencies? Then I go see a guy in a white coat who pokes about in my ears a bit and does some tests. Then what?

Or do I seek out a professional acoustician, one who knows how many octaves there are in a Hz obviously, with the skills, kit and abilities to wave a magic wand in my room and tell me where my problem lies?

My OP might seem to one as infinitely knowledgeable as you to be a huge waste of time - but why? There are several replies already that show folk on here think it a reasonable question, maybe deserving a civil response. You on the other hand think it appropriate to characterise my query in a derogatory way as 'playing with my new friends' and criticise me for 'maybe wasting your time on an area you have low understanding in (acoustics)'. This forum's called 'The Art of Sound' and this is the blank canvas section - what exactly would you expect people to be discussing here?

Perhaps you're just a troll and not worthy of this much attention; or maybe you just aren't aware what you've written might have given offence. If that's the case and there's no malice I apologise for my tone.

For anyone out there who might be able and willing to help me - and knows of an audiologist or acoustician who can help me, names and contact info will be most gratefully received.

Joe

[dave2010]

Hz in an octave! Dpends, of course! :laugh:

PS: that Laugh smiley is a bit loud!

[Reffc]

I'm a tinnitus sufferer and have some hearing loss in my left ear. To the OP, you need to get yourself to a professional hearing consultant or GP and have a proper ear test. I lost part of my hearing and got tinnitus through shooting. It isn't high frequency noises that give you tinnitus, its LOUD noises within the hearing spectrum (which is what my GP advised to me). There's no cure for tinnitus, but in many cases it can be temporary. (some people just experience it for short periods)

[Pete The Cat]

I certainly have no professional qualification in this field. However University of Life gave me hyperacusis and tinnitus as a result of attending a gig two years ago. Things I've found are ;

1) Exposure to white noise generators for over 6 hours a day for a year as part of the treatment has calmed my H and taken the edge off my T. The T is a little better and certainly no worse.
2) Shifting from an environment with background noise such as aircon / car journey to silence serves to highlight T due to the contrast. I doubt aircon or car journeys are actually harmful though.
3) Focusing on T makes it louder. I can make it deafening if I choose, or I can get on with life and make it silent. Part of the challenge is with oneself. Seeing a specialist (ie not a GP) helps you keep perspective if nothing else.

Earlier this year a trial on an in-ear electronic device was being hailed as a breakthrough cure against T but it's early days and for now distraction / masking techniques are what we have.

Pete

[AlanS]

Thank you for the advice about where to find oscilloscope software, Alan (Firebottle). It won't help me with this quest, though; according to AlanS, apparently the guilty frequencies are 20kHz+ which my microphone and that software won't detect. I'm sure it will be useful when I get to spending a bit of time with my new toys later in the winter, so I am grateful to you.

So what exactly is the kind of professional help you are suggesting I seek then, AlanS?

I go to my doctor, tell him my ears are ringing in one particular room and persuade him to refer me to an audiologist because I think there's something going on in that room, maybe a piece or pieces of kit are emitting excessive noise at ultrasonic frequencies? Then I go see a guy in a white coat who pokes about in my ears a bit and does some tests. Then what?

Or do I seek out a professional acoustician, one who knows how many octaves there are in a Hz obviously, with the skills, kit and abilities to wave a magic wand in my room and tell me where my problem lies?

My OP might seem to one as infinitely knowledgeable as you to be a huge waste of time - but why? There are several replies already that show folk on here think it a reasonable question, maybe deserving a civil response. You on the other hand think it appropriate to characterise my query in a derogatory way as 'playing with my new friends' and criticise me for 'maybe wasting your time on an area you have low understanding in (acoustics)'. This forum's called 'The Art of Sound' and this is the blank canvas section - what exactly would you expect people to be discussing here?

Perhaps you're just a troll and not worthy of this much attention; or maybe you just aren't aware what you've written might have given offence. If that's the case and there's no malice I apologise for my tone.

For anyone out there who might be able and willing to help me - and knows of an audiologist or acoustician who can help me, names and contact info will be most gratefully received.

Joe

Joe
Appologies for trying to guide you in the best direction to work out the problem by those who can advise with knowledge and understanding rather than DIY.
You are getting good advice from others now which you find acceptable tonally.
Best of luck finding an answer. Have ear problems too.

[Tim]

Maybe not exactly the right place to put this, but it could be of help to some?
I go to quite a few gigs and after seeing Motorhead a few years ago, I became a lot more concious of trying to look after my hearing. I actually left the hall mid way through the second song and my ears were ringing. I went and sat in the car and read a book, only returning for the main act (Alice Cooper). I stayed for the whole of his set and my ears were not ringing when I came out - Motorhead were bleedingly loud!

Anyway, I take these to gigs all the time now and if the sound approaches anything where I think its too much, in they go. I used to use regular ear plugs, but they just dull everything down, whereas these just reduce the levels, without loosing detail, in fact they often enhance the sound making the vocals more easily distinguishable. I bought them on-line direct from the British Tinnitus Association for £10.00 delivered, which were cheaper than Amazon: http://www.tinnitus.org.uk/products/28
If you are a registered Tinnitus sufferer, they are discounted to £8.00.


ER20 musicians’ earplugs use a patented filter that drops the volume equally across the frequency spectrum so that the sound you hear is reduced to safer levels but without the muffling effect that you experience with standard plugs. With an average volume reduction of 18dB, you can listen more safely and for longer.

ER20 Musicians Ear Plugs

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/plugs1.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/plugs2.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/plugs3.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/plugs4.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/plugs5.jpg

They come in two sizes, Small/medium and Large - S/M is good for the majority and that's what I use.

[joethebus]

Thank you very much for that, Tim. I have been using wax earplugs to attenuate loud noises, strimming ear protectors, and a set of pilot's noise cancelling headphones when driving the buses, but didn't know there were earplugs that will allow clear sound but quieter. About 18dB they say. Brilliant!

I have ordered some, a bit of a Hifi bargain at £10. Maybe I'll get to use them when Alabama3 play in Bournemouth December 4th. Will you be there?

Again, thank you kind Sir.

Joe

[Barry]

Thank you very much for that, Tim. I have been using wax earplugs to attenuate loud noises, strimming ear protectors, and a set of pilot's noise cancelling headphones when driving the buses, but didn't know there were earplugs that will allow clear sound but quieter. About 18dB they say. Brilliant!

I have ordered some, a bit of a Hifi bargain at £10. Maybe I'll get to use them when Alabama3 play in Bournemouth December 4th. Will you be there?

Again, thank you kind Sir.

Joe

Are you allowed to wear headphones whilst driving? Do you have a PSV license? I assume you have to undergo regular medicals to maintain it.

[Tim]

Maybe I'll get to use them when Alabama3 play in Bournemouth December 4th. Will you be there?
Hi Joe, I hope you find them useful, I wouldn't be without them now. As for Alabama3, still thinking about that one, as I already have 2 gigs that week, if I go I will let you know.