Tannoy Monitor Gold crossovers

[The Black Adder]

Hi all.

So... for the last 6 months I've been really geeky, got me soldering Iron out and started to fettle with the already decent custom made crossovers (made by Nick) for my Monitor golds.

With a little help from Shuggie (Hugo) I got a couple of Autoformers and after that instant improvement (replacing a fixed value coil) I figured that these speakers can produce even more magic.

So with help from Nick and Adrian (Audioflair) I decided to re-make / re-model the crossovers using some mid to high range boutique stuff.

First of all... Do resistors change sound?

"Of course they bloody don't.." I hear you shout. lol

Originally I was using Mills 12W resistors. These worked great but I soon wondered what the fuss was all about with the carbon resistors made by Duelund. Marco uses them in his crossovers so I decided to take the plunge and get some of the cast ones.

After the initial weirdness of these long black things the circuity layout had to change. So once that was done in they went.

So was it night and day? - Well, it was more like dusk and day to be honest but improvements were heard. The ease of the HF was the most apparent regarding speed and transparency. These may not work with some tweeters but the Tannoys seem to love them.

I hate the tagging of the word 'Foo' for components because if it works for one then one is happy. End of. I really like them and after another re-jig with the Mills back in place the air had become more sludgy... still nice but noticeable.

Inductors - Wire or foil?

Well, here I went for wire of 1.25mm gauge. Air cores on both the notch and the LF coils. I have still got to experiment with foils but if things are this good now then it makes me wonder.

Very, very good results from wire air cores. Some say that the notch is not as important as the LF coil and so doesn't need an air core but after experimentation with Ferrite and air I opted for the air duly down to the presence factor and the ease of the mids.

Capacitors - Claritycap ESA's to MR's to Copper PIO's, Silver PIO's and Russian grenades

The ClarityCap ESA's are very good caps indeed. They blow SA's out of the water. Claritycap say that the ESA's have 80% of the gubbins of the MR's but I have to disagree with that.

Changing the ESA 6.8uf on the tweeter to an MR was a definite night and day upgrade. The amount of detail was increased 10 fold. And this was instantly too without any burn-in (if you believe in that).

Then changing from x2 15uf ESA caps on the LF to MR's amounted in a re-design of the circuit once again as these things are MASSIVE and having 2 in parallel looks nuts but... wow! What a difference in clarity and the speed of the bass/mids became instantly more apparent.

So far the crossovers are more resembling a pair of Flux Capacitors... Doc Brown would be proud of me... lol

Next is the 3.3uf cap on the notch filter. This little nutty number is a quirky one. It's in line before the coil. The ESA sounded great as they do so the obvious choice here would be the MR, right?.. well to some yes, the MR's sounded lovely but after trying some Jensen Copper in oil's I was starting to get though a nice kind of smoothness and after a week the PIO's started to fall in to place like a jigsaw with the rest of the signature so the PIO's are in for good... And they are bloody good!

Quick note here... The reason for upgrading the crossovers was not to change the feel of the Tannoy's uniqueness but to improve on it. The original Tannoy crossovers had a couple of flaws so with those flaws straightened out (like spikey treble and shouty mids) the test bed was there to improve on them.

Next is the 1.5 shunt cap that bypasses two resistors. For this the MR's went straight in from the previous ESA's. Great.. I was happy. But then Adrian from Audioflair suggested some Russian PLIO caps namely the K75-10's (Paper Lavsan in Oil).

The difference was subtle but a warmth was eerily coming through to which seemed to knit some kind of cohesion with the mids (wow.. deep ey!) that is to say they brought out the texture of the mids somehow to which I'm going to stop there as I'm now out of my depth. But I replaced the MR's with these babies and I'm enjoying them immensely.

They are big.. military green and look like grenades or smoke canisters. Totally nuts but sound great.

6 months, 4 layouts and tweeking the crossovers are now coming to the final furlong. It's been expensive, yes but the results are magnificent. I hope someone can take away something from this and grab some of the hidden magic that these old Tannoy's can do. They can do delicacy and grunt with so much magic in between.

Next... Well I'm moving back to the 6.8 cap on the tweeter. This is just out of curiosity really as I've been experimenting with some 0.01uf silver in oil caps to bypass them. Now, putting them in and out of circuit with your ear to the speaker these make no difference in sound, that is there is no added zing or any suck out but put them in place and sit back they seem to change something. That something I think is speed, this gives a little more added air. Still in testing with these though so any info on what I'm hearing would be great.. unless I'm going mad...

Will update soon....

[John]

Hi Joe
Sounds like a labour of love but worth it. Glad the changes has worked for you

[Martinh]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Well, I'm certainly interested in reading about this, as I have also been tweaking my speaker crossovers to subtly change the balance of the sound. With the kind help of the speaker designer, I have managed to get the result that I was looking for. :) less forward sounding, more laid back but still exciting.

Whilst doing this, I began to wonder if it would be worthwhile replacing some or all of the crossover components with better ones. The std components are off the shelf "audio grade" units and my speakers are in the ~£1200 price bracket.

Bearing in mind your experiences, would you think it's worth the effort and expense? Obviously, yours are leagues ahead of mine in terms of size and quality :rolleyes: but maybe spending £50 to £100 could make a worthwhile difference?

Cheers,

[The Black Adder]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Well, I'm certainly interested in reading about this, as I have also been tweaking my speaker crossovers to subtly change the balance of the sound. With the kind help of the speaker designer, I have managed to get the result that I was looking for. :) less forward sounding, more laid back but still exciting.

Whilst doing this, I began to wonder if it would be worthwhile replacing some or all of the crossover components with better ones. The std components are off the shelf "audio grade" units and my speakers are in the ~£1200 price bracket.

Bearing in mind your experiences, would you think it's worth the effort and expense? Obviously, yours are leagues ahead of mine in terms of size and quality :rolleyes: but maybe spending £50 to £100 could make a worthwhile difference?

Cheers,

Hi Martin.

Are you using the original crossovers? If so there are quite a few upgrades that you can do. If you are using custom made ones then the circuit design may have to be re-done as there is some very confusing Tannoy schematics out there to which values differ.

If the components you are using are really bog standard stuff then for £100 you can upgrade to CC ESA's to which are amazingly good for the splash-out.

Resistors wise I'd recommend Mills 12W and coils by Falcon. PM me if you like. :) I use Mills on the LF sections as no discernible differences were heard using high grade resistors in that position.

[The Black Adder]

I remember seeing your external crossovers in super-sexy wooden boxes, are you still using those enclosures or have the new components outgrown them?

Just priced up the mills resistors and ESA capacitors and it comes to £49.68 plus postage. The air core inductors would be roughly £80 more. Not bad.

Yeah.. Although I've managed to keep the main signal paths to the same length. They look a bit mental now.. They look like amplifiers, lol. I do need some better enclosures to fit em in.

Cool... Sounds like a great start. Give em a go... Generally I found that the ESA range to be well documented as a worthwhile upgrade for most people with all kinds of speaker types. I'd still ask Neat though for advice if they are good to give it. Wish I could ask one of the olde boys from the Tannoy factory in 1967 but alas I think they are now no longer with us.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Excellent post, keep up the good work. :clapclapclap:

[Martinh]

Hi Martin.

Are you using the original crossovers? If so there are quite a few upgrades that you can do. If you are using custom made ones then the circuit design may have to be re-done as there is some very confusing Tannoy schematics out there to which values differ.

If the components you are using are really bog standard stuff then for £100 you can upgrade to CC ESA's to which are amazingly good for the splash-out.

Resistors wise I'd recommend Mills 12W and coils by Falcon. PM me if you like. :) I use Mills on the LF sections as no discernible differences were heard using high grade resistors in that position.

Thanks for that Joe.

My speakers are made by Neat Acoustics and are a current model. The standard crossover is a very simple affair indeed with only 1 component (inductor) in the LF and 4 components in the HF section.

After making an enquiry to Bob at Neat, he suggested adding 2 extra components to the LF section to roll off the LF at a steeper rate. This had the effect of eliminating a bump in the response near the crossover frequency. I added these and all is pretty perfect now, balance wise :)

The std crossovers use bog standard components (same brand as Maplin sell) so I'm sure that an improvement can be had for relatively low outlay.

Replacing the caps and resistors should be easy, as the values are marked on the component bodies. However, the inductors are unmarked, so I either need to ask Neat what the values are or find a way to measure them myself.

A question for you Joe: how did you go about making tweaks to your crossovers and the component values, when the components that you are using are so expensive? At least with a 68p Maplin wire wound resistor, it's cheap to buy a pile of them and try a few out.

Also, I think you said that you have tamed the forward mid and shouty treble. I was wondering if you acheived this by adjusting the circuit design or just tweaking the component values?

I'm pleased that you've posted results of your findings, as it's an interesting subject IMHO. I had spent hours playing around with the EQ settings on my media PC with mixed results and in the end got the desired result with a simple crossover mod that cost around £15 to achieve :)

Cheers,

[The Black Adder]

Excellent post, keep up the good work. :clapclapclap:

Cheers matey... :)

[The Black Adder]

Thanks for that Joe.

My speakers are made by Neat Acoustics and are a current model. The standard crossover is a very simple affair indeed with only 1 component (inductor) in the LF and 4 components in the HF section.

After making an enquiry to Bob at Neat, he suggested adding 2 extra components to the LF section to roll off the LF at a steeper rate. This had the effect of eliminating a bump in the response near the crossover frequency. I added these and all is pretty perfect now, balance wise :)

The std crossovers use bog standard components (same brand as Maplin sell) so I'm sure that an improvement can be had for relatively low outlay.

Replacing the caps and resistors should be easy, as the values are marked on the component bodies. However, the inductors are unmarked, so I either need to ask Neat what the values are or find a way to measure them myself.

A question for you Joe: how did you go about making tweaks to your crossovers and the component values, when the components that you are using are so expensive? At least with a 68p Maplin wire wound resistor, it's cheap to buy a pile of them and try a few out.

Also, I think you said that you have tamed the forward mid and shouty treble. I was wondering if you acheived this by adjusting the circuit design or just tweaking the component values?

I'm pleased that you've posted results of your findings, as it's an interesting subject IMHO. I had spent hours playing around with the EQ settings on my media PC with mixed results and in the end got the desired result with a simple crossover mod that cost around £15 to achieve :)

Cheers,

Hi Martin.

Ah.. Well. I'm not up on Neat so if you can ask the guys there what value inductors are used that would be a great step. As far as I know you need more than a simple multi-tester to get the mH values of inductors. DCR values are simple to get.

Remember to ask for the mH and DCR values. Also ask if the DCR value in the LF coil can be reduced to benefit a little more extension.

For example with Tannoys the LF coil can be reduced to best around 0.1 to 0.4 Ohms.

Regarding buying parts... A deep breath matey really. Upgrades need to be done in stages and with lots of research in to other peoples experience with different less boutique parts.

Just make sure you buy the correct values or else it will upset the crossover points especially with caps. I found resistors can be +/- within a couple of Ohms with no detriment to sound.

I suggest using Mills and ClarityCap ESA's. I came from Wimslow Ansar's and Soniqcaps to ESA's to MR's and Jensens PIO's. I found that if any resistors are in series then those are the ones to upgrade first most importantly on the HF side.

There is a big leap from ESA's but you really have to love your speakers enough to shell out for the gamble. But if you have done your homework then the jump isn't too bad.

I found that ESA's had more warmth with a little more bloom going on and the MR's more tight and precise but with a more accurate extension. In other words more realistic which is what I was after.

This could go further in to Duelund cast caps and coils but that is another league in it's own way. Faaazuns of quids.

Oh and I'd certainly leave the EQ well alone. If you want a straight result then you need it to be as flat as possible. EQ's are great but open barrels of worms imho.

[Martinh]

Thanks Joe, you are a star :cool:

If I can get a similar result to yours, I'll be a happy chappy indeed.

Im gonna cost up the replacement caps and resistors from Hifi Collective and then sweet talk Bob at Neat to see if he'll give me the inductor values. Thanks for the mH + DCR tip BTW.

Is Hifi Collective the best place to buy these or should I try somewhere else?

Cheers,

[The Black Adder]

Thanks Joe, you are a star :cool:

If I can get a similar result to yours, I'll be a happy chappy indeed.

Im gonna cost up the replacement caps and resistors from Hifi Collective and then sweet talk Bob at Neat to see if he'll give me the inductor values. Thanks for the mH + DCR tip BTW.

Is Hifi Collective the best place to buy these or should I try somewhere else?

Cheers,

Cool, just take your time and take time to listen to them and not instantly make a judgement. Neat and Tannoy can't be any more different in mechanical and design terms. I have my changes in place for a week before I make any kind of judgement. You may find it better to (like mine) remove the crossovers from the speakers for ease of tweeking if you haven't already.

Yep HFC are the ones I used. Excellent service!

You can also give Falcon a ring too for inductors. Again, superb service and excellent advice. They also sell the ESA range.

And turn off the EQ.. lol :)

[Martinh]

I remember seeing your external crossovers in super-sexy wooden boxes, are you still using those enclosures or have the new components outgrown them?

Just priced up the mills resistors and ESA capacitors and it comes to £49.68 plus postage. The air core inductors would be roughly £80 more. Not bad.

[istari_knight]

Just thought I'd chip in & say that I've bought crossover parts from this lot : http://www.audio-components.co.uk/store/category.asp?CategoryID=2

Very nice quality & usually much cheaper than hfc.

[The Black Adder]

Yep.. I've also bought stuff from there in the past. They also sell the wax coils too.

[Wakefield Turntables]

joe,

did you find yourself setting a physical limit to the amount of money that you wanted to spend on the x-o components, or was this determined by your research finidngs?

Andy

[The Black Adder]

joe,

did you find yourself setting a physical limit to the amount of money that you wanted to spend on the x-o components, or was this determined by your research finidngs?

Andy

Hi Andy.

I did have a budget and it was spent in the most addressing areas but it was also lead by research and experimentation as so I didn't want to go in to it blind. I asked an awful lot of questions, in fact I may have become a bit of a pest to some.. lol

[Wakefield Turntables]

It looks like I will be travelling the same path as yourself when I start the proper work on the 44's x-o. :eek:

[The Black Adder]

Ok chaps..

Pics are up... These are not finished as yet but thought I'd post em.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Tannoy%20Crossovers%20New/DSC07260.jpg

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Tannoy%20Crossovers%20New/DSC07278.jpg

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Tannoy%20Crossovers%20New/DSC07280.jpg
In situ

[Martinh]

Wow, they are beautiful Joe :wow:

I must get around to starting mine.

cheers,

[Ali Tait]

Very nice Joe.

[Wakefield Turntables]

fooking hell Joe you were correct about them looking like monoblocks. :eek: Well done incidently, I'll keep you updated with my secret project :eyebrows:

[The Black Adder]

Many thanks chaps... Just the finishing off to do now!

[Reffc]

Excellent work Joe and I look forward to the final outcome :smoking:

If that big Russian military cap starts ticking or smoking...back steadily away to a distance or about a mile :lol:

[The Black Adder]

Excellent work Joe and I look forward to the final outcome :smoking:

If that big Russian military cap starts ticking or smoking...back steadily away to a distance or about a mile :lol:

lol... that thing is inside the case... It dose look ominously nuclear to be honest. It has a lovely sound, totally suits the Monitor Golds.

[Ammonite Audio]

Hi Joe

Are you still using the little 4-pin Tannoy plugs, or hardwiring the crossovers directky to the LF and HF coil terminals? Also, did you settle on any particular autoformer tap for best HF balance?

I'm pretty much decided that I'm going to restore my Lancasters and will probably get Nick to do the crossovers, since he has my Sowter autoformers and you have been a good guinea pig!

[The Black Adder]

Hi Joe

Are you still using the little 4-pin Tannoy plugs, or hardwiring the crossovers directky to the LF and HF coil terminals? Also, did you settle on any particular autoformer tap for best HF balance?

I'm pretty much decided that I'm going to restore my Lancasters and will probably get Nick to do the crossovers, since he has my Sowter autoformers and you have been a good guinea pig!

Hi Hugo.

I'm am hardwiring to the drivers. The plugs are fine but can become crusty over time apparently.

I settled on yellow tap of which also jumps to the 50R resistor.

Any questions, just ask.. or PM.

Cheers

[sey]

Nice job, Joe!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Any idea on how we can get pics of joes reworked cross overs, now im in the market for some making I'd like to see what he's used.

[Reffc]

Hi Hugo.

I'm am hardwiring to the drivers. The plugs are fine but can become crusty over time apparently.

I settled on yellow tap of which also jumps to the 50R resistor.

Any questions, just ask.. or PM.

Cheers

Those wanting to have a go at DIY versions minus the crossovers need to be careful here! I guess you've used the autoformers Joe, so no circuit changes are needed.

If not using the autoformer and using a fixed value inductor, you will not have the correct values if you use the yellow tapping values. Yellow tap may be what Tannoy show in the crossovers as flat, but it is not the electrically flat tapping. That is the Green tap not the yellow.

Bear in mind when you choose an inductor value if it is a fixed inductor value, it should have the same inductance as the green tap which is about 2.9mH and not the 4mH of the Yellow tap.

Furthermore, the green is connected back to the orange tap which makes the reflected impedance ratio 2.0, so for a fixed inductor value, the correct value for the shunt resistor is not 50 Ohms, its 25 Ohms. 50 ohms at this point will put too much energy into the HF circuit at the expense of bass. Any less than 25 Ohms and you will stress your amp but not change bass/improve response.

With the autoformer in circuit you do not have to worry about these things but many DIY/Forum diagrams I've seen for DIY fixed value crossovers have been wrong because of these points. I'm happy to confirm and supply the correct values if anyone else is having a go at DIY fixed value crossovers minus the autoformers (don't forget that these act as step-up/down transformers as well as a variable inductor).

[Ammonite Audio]

Joe is using the new Tannoy MG autoformer very successfully 'reverse engineered' and supplied by Sowter, so your comments apply in principle, if not quite in detail.


Those wanting to have a go at DIY versions minus the crossovers need to be careful here! I guess you've used the autoformers Joe, so no circuit changes are needed.

If not using the autoformer and using a fixed value inductor, you will not have the correct values if you use the yellow tapping values. Yellow tap may be what Tannoy show in the crossovers as flat, but it is not the electrically flat tapping. That is the Green tap not the yellow.

Bear in mind when you choose an inductor value if it is a fixed inductor value, it should have the same inductance as the green tap which is about 2.9mH and not the 4mH of the Yellow tap.

Furthermore, the green is connected back to the orange tap which makes the reflected impedance ratio 2.0, so for a fixed inductor value, the correct value for the shunt resistor is not 50 Ohms, its 25 Ohms. 50 ohms at this point will put too much energy into the HF circuit at the expense of bass. Any less than 25 Ohms and you will stress your amp but not change bass/improve response.

With the autoformer in circuit you do not have to worry about these things but many DIY/Forum diagrams I've seen for DIY fixed value crossovers have been wrong because of these points. I'm happy to confirm and supply the correct values if anyone else is having a go at DIY fixed value crossovers minus the autoformers (don't forget that these act as step-up/down transformers as well as a variable inductor).

[Reffc]

Joe is using the new Tannoy MG autoformer very successfully 'reverse engineered' and supplied by Sowter, so your comments apply in principle, if not quite in detail.

Yes, I remember now. Best way and worth doing IMHO if the originals can't be had, but I thought I'd offer the comments for anyone considering fixed value crossovers as it's a very very common mistake to use the wrong inductor/resistor values due to some bad advice/designs on the "interweb" ;)

[Ammonite Audio]

Yes, I remember now. Best way and worth doing IMHO if the originals can't be had, but I thought I'd offer the comments for anyone considering fixed value crossovers as it's a very very common mistake to use the wrong inductor/resistor values due to some bad advice/designs on the "interweb" ;)

Very true.

[The Black Adder]

An update to this.

Mk VI is now complete. This has now been modified to be mounted internally too using a sound deadening top plate.

I have now made 2 sets of this version for friends and all are very happy, which is nice.

Work carried out over the older versions is mostly the shortening of the signal path and reducing solder joints. Using acoustic materials is also a biggie to which is now the default option.

Mine will be installed inside the cabs from now on. Also a big upgrade is using Van Den Hul CS-14 Hybrid for the internal cabinet wiring. Get it while you can though as it's no longer being produced. But I'm sure they have a trillion miles left of the stuff.

Swapped out the Ruskie caps to try the MR again too... as an experiment.

[kkib]

... Also a big upgrade is using Van Den Hul CS-14 Hybrid for the internal cabinet wiring. Get it while you can though as it's no longer being produced. But I'm sure they have a trillion miles left of the stuff.

Does anyone have a source for this (preferably in North America)?



Swapped out the Ruskie caps to try the MR again too... as an experiment.
I am building my crossovers for 15" Red with 18uF Russian caps as well, as an interim solution until I can order some CarityCap MRs. Please do share your observations.

[The Black Adder]

Does anyone have a source for this (preferably in North America)?


I am building my crossovers for 15" Red with 18uF Russian caps as well, as an interim solution until I can order some CarityCap MRs. Please do share your observations.


I don't have any source in North America, sorry.

The Russian caps are great, and a great move for a temporary fix. The MR's do need some running in so be aware of that.

[Marco]

Mine will be installed inside the cabs from now on. Also a big upgrade is using Van Den Hul CS-14 Hybrid for the internal cabinet wiring. Get it while you can though as it's no longer being produced. But I'm sure they have a trillion miles left of the stuff.

Swapped out the Ruskie caps to try the MR again too... as an experiment.

Now I wonder who gave you that idea? ;) The stuff is top-notch and should be de rigueur for all speaker internal wiring jobs.

Interesting one on the Ruskie caps. Let us know how you get on with that. I'd be curious to know whether it results in an upgrade or not. Also, why put the crossovers back inside the cabs - can you detect no sonic improvement from externalising them? Even if not, I'd keep them on show simply because they look so bloody good! :)

Marco.

[kkib]

I don't have any source in North America, sorry.

It does not seem to be available in NA. I don`t mind buying it from another continent. I need about 24 feet. Can anybody help?

[Reffc]

Does anyone have a source for this (preferably in North America)?


I am building my crossovers for 15" Red with 18uF Russian caps as well, as an interim solution until I can order some CarityCap MRs. Please do share your observations.

VDH no longer produce this cable but there is a variant, very similar in construction and the same gauge called "Van Den Hul Snowline" speaker cable. It's also 14 AWG, also made of 98 strands of silver plated OFC and also uses the carbon coating between strands. I suspect it's the exact same extruded cable in a different jacket. Cost is a reasonable £7/m

[The Black Adder]

Now I wonder who gave you that idea? ;) The stuff is top-notch and should be de rigueur for all speaker internal wiring jobs.

Interesting one on the Ruskie caps. Let us know how you get on with that. I'd be curious to know whether it results in an upgrade or not. Also, why put the crossovers back inside the cabs - can you detect no sonic improvement from externalising them? Even if not, I'd keep them on show simply because they look so bloody good! :)

Marco.

You did matey... Yes, I should have credited you there. Sorry about that. :) - Just assumed people knew.. A genuine slip up I can assure you.

It was an idea but now it's not to be.. so they are to be kept external. I've re-wired the cabs with the VDH stuff so the crossovers now sit on the floor as we have had another shuftie in the living room so we don't have shelves for them any more. But they sound great.

The idea of putting them in the cabs was purely because we don't have a shelf for them. And I remember putting the prototypes in the cabs for a bit and the soundstage seemed to shrink, a bit muddled too. So on that basis the idea was short lived.

[The Black Adder]

The Russian caps are very good indeed. But... I found them to compliment the MR's in the HF best. I tried some 15uf's in the bass but it was too lean. Saying that it could have done with running in, but these do take a while longer than MR's to burn in. The MR's are quite crispy at first but after a while (as Marco knows) they open up and "let the flavor flood out". :)

[The Black Adder]

The next job is to get some of those Cardas plugs, Marco... Ruddy expensive though.

Yesterday I hard wired the speaker cable in to the crossovers too, bloody ell!... A very nice upgrade for a few hours work. So the only connections now are at the amp end obviously and from the crossover to the speaker to which is totally necessary and so that has to be.

[vencel]

It is an old thread, but I would like to reopen it and ask your advise about the resistors.
I would like to upgrade the resistors in my MG15 original crossovers. Deulunds would not fit into the original crossover box, so I would either use MILLS or Mundorf.
What power rating the original resistors are? Shall I buy 5W or 10W Mundorfs OR 5W or 12W MILLS?

Anybody tried Wilmslow Audio or MusiCap Film & Foil capacitors?

Thanks!
Vencel

[danilo]

Erm OEM Resistors are/were 5 watters. They are eminently suitable to purpose.
You'd prefer the voice coils to fail first?
I experimented (was bored and curious one year) with 2 watters and found no issues, it was a silly experiment in retrospect .

IMO Only Superman could hear audible difference betwixt oem resistors and (fill in the brand name of choice)
However this subject is deep into religious territory.

IF bored?? Spend yer $$ on a decent Line level Crossover adventure ??
Either passive (really inexpensive/easy) or Active.
Only significant caveat is the need for 2 decent and ideally Identical amps.

[vencel]

Thanks for the quick replies.
Some years back someone told that original resistors are fine sounding and there is no need to replace them.
I don't want to spend a fortune on exotic components, but I would like to try other resistros as well and thanks to your recommendations I decided to buy 5W Mills.
these should nicely fit into the original crossover enclosure.
I was also thinking of Ohmite, but could not find proper values.

By the way, I soldered out all capacitors and resistors. While capacitor values were out of tolerance, resistors have been selected very precisely.

Regarding capacitors I am thinking of Wilmslow Audio Supercapacitors.

Thanks a lot for your great support!

[Reffc]

Thanks for the quick replies.
Some years back someone told that original resistors are fine sounding and there is no need to replace them.
I don't want to spend a fortune on exotic components, but I would like to try other resistros as well and thanks to your recommendations I decided to buy 5W Mills.
these should nicely fit into the original crossover enclosure.
I was also thinking of Ohmite, but could not find proper values.

By the way, I soldered out all capacitors and resistors. While capacitor values were out of tolerance, resistors have been selected very precisely.

Regarding capacitors I am thinking of Wilmslow Audio Supercapacitors.

Thanks a lot for your great support!

The resistors are the most benign of all crossover components (and have no sound of their own...how can they? Their tolerance and wattage rating is the most important aspect for crossover purposes) and changing the originals will only alter the perception of your wallet, and not your ears. They were 9w wirewounds in almost all later OEM crossovers by the way (not 5w) and changing them will make absolutely NO audible difference to the filter transfer functions because it wont alter how the filter works. Leave well alone if ok and save yourself some money better invested elsewhwere.

[vencel]

The resistors are the most benign of all crossover components (and have no sound of their own...how can they? Their tolerance and wattage rating is the most important aspect for crossover purposes) and changing the originals will only alter the perception of your wallet, and not your ears. They were 9w wirewounds in almost all later OEM crossovers by the way (not 5w) and changing them will make absolutely NO audible difference to the filter transfer functions because it wont alter how the filter works. Leave well alone if ok and save yourself some money better invested elsewhwere.

Thank you very much! The information about 9W makes a huge difference as 5W MILLS drop out of my list.
Perhaps I should stay with originals resistors and spend more on capacitors :-)

[Reffc]

Thank you very much! The information about 9W makes a huge difference as 5W MILLS drop out of my list.
Perhaps I should stay with originals resistors and spend more on capacitors :-)

The best bang for buck is in disassembly and cleaning of switches (which aren't as bad as they're made out to be if properly serviced but not as good as bypassing them completely!), leave the resistors as is, and don't worry about spending too much on capacitors. 5w resistors are probably fine for the HF section series resistors. Just get the replacement cap values within 5% tolerance (min). Use any reasonably regarded polys that will fit. Whilst the original plastic bodied capacitors wont wear out as such, and technically could be left in place, it does make an audible difference swapping them out for better modern tighter tolerance polys. There is an audible difference (improvement) between using some something like a claritycap (not that expensive) compared with the originals . Don't go mad price-wise. You don't have to. At the voltages considered, no need to fit monster caps either. any 250v rated poly will do the job fine.

[vencel]

The best bang for buck is in disassembly and cleaning of switches (which aren't as bad as they're made out to be if properly serviced but not as good as bypassing them completely!), leave the resistors as is, and don't worry about spending too much on capacitors. 5w resistors are probably fine for the HF section series resistors. Just get the replacement cap values within 5% tolerance (min). Use any reasonably regarded polys that will fit. Whilst the original plastic bodied capacitors wont wear out as such, and technically could be left in place, it does make an audible difference swapping them out for better modern tighter tolerance polys. There is an audible difference (improvement) between using some something like a claritycap (not that expensive) compared with the originals . Don't go mad price-wise. You don't have to. At the voltages considered, no need to fit monster caps either. any 250v rated poly will do the job fine.

Thanks a lot for your advise. Original caps are anyway 100V versions so I decided to buy SuperSound capacitors which should fir nicely.
I am curious to try the Mills so I ordered some 5W type Mills (10R, 20R and 50R), but perhaps I should order 12W version for the LF. By the way, which resistor is for the LF which has to be 12W?

[The Black Adder]

I've spent lots of time trying different types and IMO they do make a difference in sound.

Don't ask me how.... they just do and with that I'll leave it there. :)

Mills are the best to use if you are using the original enclosure, quality and size are both just about perfect.

[walpurgis]

Mills are the best to use if you are using the original enclosure, quality and size are both just about perfect.

Who stocks Mills Jo? I have a pair of Tannoy crossovers to play with and could try these.

[The Black Adder]

HifiCollective, Geoff.

That's where I always buy from.

[walpurgis]

HifiCollective, Geoff.

That's where I always buy from.

Cheers. I'll have a look.

I have a pair of Ascots and I'm planning to turn the drivers and crossovers into 2558 spec as per SRM 10B. No harm in updating/upgrading components while doing this.

[walpurgis]

Just had a look. The price of Audio Note sliver foil caps is 'interesting', to say the least! :eek:

[The Black Adder]

lol... it gets you thinking doesn't it.

[Reffc]

lol... it gets you thinking doesn't it.

Only that there's 1,000,000 better ways to spend your money :lol:

[The Black Adder]

lol... yep... but Oooh... eets for ze love of eeet!

I have often wondered about buying all sorts from there, but ended up going on LP's lol

[Reffc]

lol... yep... but Oooh... eets for ze love of eeet!

I have often wondered about buying all sorts from there, but ended up going on LP's lol

Had this conversation so many times with so many people, and putting money into music is usually a far better use. Recently, I was looking at component performance in detail wrt one of my phonostages. I discovered that by changing the values of a couple of 20p resistors and reducing cable length to get capacitance down, it counted for way more than any megabucks capacitors. Total outlay, 40p and a bit of time. Effects on performance have a far more dramatic effect by ensuring correct cartridge loading than wasted on silly money capacitors elsewhere, in parts of the system where they just wont make that much difference. I believe in using reasonable quality parts, but also at looking where they are, what it is they are doing and what effect that can have or not on the signal. In almost all cases, what is audible is measurable also, and more often than not, audible changes point to a change in value of something rather than in how much it cost.

[Radford Revival]

In almost all cases, what is audible is measurable also, and more often than not, audible changes point to a change in value of something rather than in how much it cost.

Careful now we don't want to veer too close to reality :D