View Full Version : Is it just me or is it part of the disease?
After most ‘upgrades’ I sit for hours enthralled by the new things I can hear. ‘Wow, oooh, ahh, shivers down the spine :) - Nirvana! ? ? ? ? ? ?? :hmm:
Some months later I can clearly hear shortcomings again. Eventually I become so aware of a real or perceived fault that I can barely bring myself to listen critically and I stop sitting down specifically to listen. As often as not what I have done is exchange one quality for another and now realise that I have lost something that was important to me :doh:. It deteriorates to the point when I just use my expensive set-up for background music.
When I reach that point I simply MUST change this, that or the other and THEN I will have Nirvana. Is it just me or is it part of the disease? Is there a cure?
No cure I am afraid. Welcome to the world of the terminally bewildered. I feel your pain:eek:
prestonchipfryer
12-10-2012, 07:10
Me too! Unfortunately there is no known cure for your seemingly endless desire to change things in your system.
Do not be alarmed, however, as eventually you will realise that the kit you just sold/got rid of, was in fact okay after all.
:)
Yes - there is a cure but it requires patience and being rigorous with yourself. If you experience that loss of attention and fatiguing sound, it means that you did not necessarily upgrade wisely. I've done it myself.
Take longer, listen to an upgrade with favourite music, don't chop and change. Switch back and make sure it really was an upgrade and not just different. A well executed upgrade should give you lasting pleasure.
julesd68
12-10-2012, 08:37
Wise words from Martin ...
There's something else that sometimes occurs when upgrading - your upgrade then reveals deficiencies in other bits of kit so you end up wanting to change those aswell! :doh:
There is one cure:
Don't subscribe to any forums, or buy any hifi mags. Put your money into music instead and tell yourself "this is as good as I'll ever need".
you might fool yourself, hell you might even be right! ;)
Yes - there is a ciure but it requires patience and being rigorous with yourself. If you experience that loss of attention and fatiguing sound, it means that you did not necessarily upgrade wisely. I've done it myself.
Take longer, listen to an upgrade with favourite music, don't chop and change. Switch back and make sure it really was an upgrade and not just different. A well executed upgrade should give you lasting pleasure.
Thank you Martin - your post has saved me the effort of writing something very similar :).
Very often, when people listen 'critically', they actually listen to a very narrow range of music (often just one or two records, sometimes only one track of one album); they also get sucked in by the minutia and fail to see the bigger picture. For example, whilst they may concentrate on achieving treble purity they don't notice that all the dynamic and life has been sucked from the music.
I would also add that it is very common to find that people confuse (or mistake) different with better.
There is one cure:
Don't subscribe to any forums, or buy any hifi mags. Put your money into music instead and tell yourself "this is as good as I'll ever need".
you might fool yourself, hell you might even be right! ;)
Good post.
icehockeyboy
13-10-2012, 09:53
Good post.
What he said!:)
A wise man once said;
'Little do we know our own blessedness,
for to travel hopefully, is a better thing than to arrive'.
Robert Louis Stevenson.
After most ‘upgrades’ I sit for hours enthralled by the new things I can hear. ‘Wow, oooh, ahh, shivers down the spine :) - Nirvana! ? ? ? ? ? ?? :hmm:
Some months later I can clearly hear shortcomings again. Eventually I become so aware of a real or perceived fault that I can barely bring myself to listen critically and I stop sitting down specifically to listen. As often as not what I have done is exchange one quality for another and now realise that I have lost something that was important to me :doh:. It deteriorates to the point when I just use my expensive set-up for background music.
When I reach that point I simply MUST change this, that or the other and THEN I will have Nirvana. Is it just me or is it part of the disease? Is there a cure?
There are many reasons why this can occur and some have been covered in the replies. However, often 'upgrades' make no change whatsoever and we think we hear changes because that's what we expect. The truth tends to emerge as time passes.
The classic is when modifying and tweaking someone else's work.
We put in fancy caps or mod the circuit or start using special spikes etc.
These things have to make a difference, right?
Well, no, they don't always.
That's why I said earlier you have to be rigorous. You don't need to fool yourself if you really listen, there is no need for placebo effect. Take the stance that you expect no change whatsover after a tweak and then just listen to the music. Changes will gradually dawn on you. Then swap back to ensure that you like the change.
Stratmangler
13-10-2012, 10:46
For example, whilst they may concentrate on achieving treble purity they don't notice that all the dynamic and life has been sucked from the music.
I would also add that it is very common to find that people confuse (or mistake) different with better.
I quite agree with both of these points Mark.
That's why I said earlier you have to be rigorous. You don't need to fool yourself if you really listen, there is no need for placebo effect. Take the stance that you expect no change whatsover after a tweak and then just listen to the music. Changes will gradually dawn on you. Then swap back to ensure that you like the change.
I agree, but it's not easy to voluntarily put aside bias.
So for me 'rigorous' means taking steps to compare things on a level playing field and using only ears. The comparison also needs to be instantaneous since human memory ability is proven to be dreadful when looking at all but gross changes. A little rigour costs nothing but a little time.
Having done that, and discovered (correctly) that your change or tweak is making a real difference, then yes you should live with the change for a period of time for further assessment.
I have made changes that made no audible difference. I have changed components, like capacitors, and found a positive difference and I also found a negative difference, preferring the sound when the previous components were swapped back in.
You just have to keep an open mind.
Riislingen
13-10-2012, 13:15
Audionervosa A.K.A Hifi anxiety hell.
It´s a terminal diagnosis :rolleyes:
Joke aside, I unfortunately share your pain. The world of audio is sadly very often one of manic highs and equally profound lows...
Live with it or go Ipod I guess..
Well I consider myself to be thoroughly cured with the help of the membership here - I just listen to music now as the system has completely moved out of the way allowing me to relax and hear the artists in front of me . . . I'm a happy bunny too :)
For me this forum has been the cure, but forums can *if you let them* do nothing more than fuel your frustration, finding the right balance is not always easy to do either, but ultimately I think our own personalties come into play more than we perhaps realise? I think a question you need to ask yourself is this "is it the music or the tinkering I enjoy" if its the later, then just enjoy tinkering and don't beat yourself up if a change doesn't bring an improvement. As Mark says, you just have to keep an open mind.
What I find myself doing now is actually listening to the music and thinking what is the artist trying to portray and what do these lyrics mean, instead of can I hear a difference in this cable or component. I am only hearing the music now and all my money goes into buying more music as well.
Mind you I only have a modest system but I do think I have managed to hit some kind of symmetry between my aspirations and what pleases my ears, or it could just be I have gone a bit deaf in my old age :wheniwasaboy:
Rothchild
13-10-2012, 13:48
Perception / expectation bias is a tough one to beat. As a tranducer ears are ok but as a decoder the brain can be terribly unreliable (or terribly reliable depending how you view these things!).
It's a well known phenomena to audio engineers, who find they've reached for a channel on a mixer to adjust the eq on something, adapt it to their preference and find they like the change effected, only to realise that said eq is not even patched in / switched on! (any audio engineer who denies this ever happening to them is, frankly, a liar).
Once you've had it happen to you and have acknowledged the power that expectation bias can have (things which demonstrably haven't changed sounded different!) you tend to be a lot more careful about listening to both the claims for gear and the music you're making!
Proper, blind, A/B/X testing is IMO really the only way to actually determine both difference and quality (from a subjective viewpoint) but it's really difficult to do properly. Of course none of this negates the fact that if you're happy then great, stay happy. But if you're happy at first and become less happy as time proceeds chances are you're turning an expensive hobby in to a really expensive hobby!
Hi Marc,
An excellent post :)
The only thing I'd say is that once having experienced what you've described, one must guard against the danger of becoming overly sceptical, and never again trusting one's ears, simply for fear of being 'fooled'...
For some, such a thing can become a near-pathological obsession (and considering automatically that something must be scientifically proven before believing that it exists), and thus turning healthy scepticism into unhealthy cynicism. *That* is where the REAL problems begin...! ;)
I like Martin's assessment methodology, which I also adopt myself, described below:
That's why I said earlier you have to be rigorous. You don't need to fool yourself if you really listen, there is no need for placebo effect. Take the stance that you expect no change whatsover after a tweak and then just listen to the music. Changes will gradually dawn on you. Then swap back to ensure that you like the change.
The emboldened part in blue is where the real message lies, as I firmly believe that only genuine (not imagined) improvements to a system, over time, cause such an effect, and that this system assessment methodology is thus liable to produce more meaningful results in the real world, than any (IMO, fatally flawed) blind ABX testing, conducted in an artificially controlled environment.
In the end, I firmly believe that after you have removed all reasonable doubt, to your own personal satisfaction, having conducted your own testing process, whatever that may have been, and thus are satisfied that a genuine upgrade has been achieved, then it's best to simply relax, trust your senses, and just enjoy the music!
Building a musically satisfying high-end audio system needn't be any more complicated than that! Continually requiring measurable verification that one's ears haven't been 'fooled', is simply a recipe for creating neurosis, and can lead to making counterproductive system-building decisions, which in themselves can fuel the type of issues being expressed here by the OP.
Marco.
Rothchild
13-10-2012, 14:41
I think my problem is that I think A/B/X is really the minimum benchmark for subjective testing to actually be considered rigerous. And yes, I concur, for most of us it's completely impractical. As for its 'artificiallity, well that's not an issue if we're only testing to see if there is actually a difference in the first instance but, again I agree, in terms of understanding 'improvement' (especially in the realm of home hi-fi) then context (ie being in the home) is going to be a contributing factor.
One might argue that the longer it takes for a difference to manifest itself the less likely it is that it's actually there!
Regardless here's to enjoying the music! :cool:
Hi Marc,
I think my problem is that I think A/B/X is really the minimum benchmark for subjective testing to actually be considered rigerous.
That's fine, and no doubt others here would agree. Personally, I don't. I think we all have our own benchmarks for what in that respect would be considered as suitably rigorous. It's cynicism and dogmatic absolutism overriding genuine open-mindedness and free-thinking I'm against. What must be remembered is that, in audio, there is no 'one true path' which is universally of the same benefit for everyone.
And yes, I concur, for most of us it's completely impractical. As for its 'artificiallity, well that's not an issue if we're only testing to see if there is actually a difference in the first instance...
Well, it is an issue if the artificiality and stress of the test environment causes us to behave differently than we would otherwise when relaxing listening to music at home, and thus allowing any genuine system improvements to simply 'happen' naturally. I'm a firm believer that, in audio, the effects of the former skew any genuinely meaningful results obtained from controlled ABX testing.
but, again I agree, in terms of understanding 'improvement' (especially in the realm of home hi-fi) then context (ie being in the home) is going to be a contributing factor.
For me, it's absolutely crucial. After all, in normal circumstances one's listening to and appreciation of music will be conducted at home, not inside a lab! ;)
One might argue that the longer it takes for a difference to manifest itself the less likely it is that it's actually there!
Absolutely, and that is why a finite time for subjective assessment must be set and then strictly adhered to. I usually assess upgrades made to my system for a period of a week (to allow my ears to become 'attuned' to any sonic changes), then after that time, remove said upgrade(s) and return to the previous status quo.
If my initial reaction then, using music that I know intimately well as the test parameter, is that my system sounds no better or worse, then I conclude that said 'upgrades' were ineffectual, and dismiss them. However, if the opposite happens, and I hear a notable degradation in the performance of my system and, crucially, how it presents music, then I know that the upgrade(s) I had introduced to my system were genuine.
By that stage, I couldn't give a monkey's toss whether what I've experienced was scientifically provable or not, as I'd simply trust my ears.
Regardless here's to enjoying the music!
Absolutely. Ultimately, *THAT* is what owning a quality hi-fi system is all about! :cool:
Marco.
It's a well known phenomena to audio engineers, who find they've reached for a channel on a mixer to adjust the eq on something, adapt it to their preference and find they like the change effected, only to realise that said eq is not even patched in / switched on! (any audio engineer who denies this ever happening to them is, frankly, a liar).
Haha.. I've heard lighting and sound engineers nod and wink about the special empty slider or knob at one theatre I work at. They know some production managers just have to control something and don't feel good about it until they exert that control. The unconnected channel strip gets tweaked or the lighting turned up and back down to original position and they're suddenly happy! hehe
I have the solution!
Simply don't sell anything until you find you're NEVER using it! Work towards getting yourself a buffer both in terms of funds and previous gear.
I suppose there are times where you wonder if there would have been synergy with a previous pre-amp with the new power amp but you just have to keep that part of your mind quiet.
Rothchild
14-10-2012, 07:22
Haha.. I've heard lighting and sound engineers nod and wink about the special empty slider or knob at one theatre I work at. They know some production managers just have to control something and don't feel good about it until they exert that control. The unconnected channel strip gets tweaked or the lighting turned up and back down to original position and they're suddenly happy! hehe
Coloquially known as an 'idiot strip'. :eyebrows:
Floyddroid
14-10-2012, 09:52
Like any other addiction audio/hi-fi needs to be first identify as such. I feel that the whole striving concept behind audio excellence fullfils a need in our character. it is in many ways or can become as addictive as smoking drinking,caffiene or worse. Owning hi-fi and enjoying it quell's some of our needs, ie the want to own something appealing, appreciation of the engineering, the need to share and more deangerously to compete.
In isolation the enjoyment of your hi-fi can be joyous, insightful, pleasurable and a direct portal for you favourite programme source. In the presence of someone who may offer criticism or suggest an area of improvement it can become an Incabus disturbing sleep and costing money. As already suggested by one on my AOS colleagues above all improvements/upgrades etc should be done with your own needs considered above all else and not merely to own something better than other audiophiles/enthusiasts.
I had an epiphany about four years ago which even caused the parting of the ways between myself and some close friends. It dawned on me that with regard to my own circumstances i knew far more about Hi-fi than anyone else on the planet. Why, because i cast out many of the demons spoken about elsewhere here and as a result got my addiction under control. I now own a very modest system in comparison to what i had some years back though i still enjoy tinkering and enjoying the almost DIY element of the past time. Now and again i may treat myself to something new if it is a genuine improvement and recognised by myself and not by jury.
I now invest more in music and the enjoyment of it, concert tickets,records Cd's DVD's what ever makes me smile.
In short, buy what ever floats your boat. Does it look and sound like you want it to? if it does stick with it, if it doesn't tweak it until it does. Enjoy it. As Billy Joel once said "Leave A Tender Moment Alone", I agree.:)
Ohhh, one of my favorite subjects, ABX testing. :eyebrows:
I’ve been X testing for a while now; first with a borrowed tester, then with the simplest offering from Rod Elliot’s site and software for foobar and Linux.
I have no doubt that people who I will loosely describe as audiophiles have varying degrees of aural acuity and I’m not just taking into consideration the ability to hear frequency extremes. An audio engineer friend of mine can pick out things I just don’t notice.
If you’re spending your money then learning what type of sound gives you the greatest listening pleasure rather than worrying about high detail retrieval, or the size of the sound stage, or even how the kit measures, makes choosing components less of a lottery.
It seems obvious but I know a few audio enthusiasts that have spoilt what to my ears sounded a balanced and pleasant listening experience by replacing a component with something that may well have improved one aspect of their system but ruined the overall listening experience. :doh:
In my opinion ABX carried out in the style used in the most publicised group tests becomes an aural acuity competition. :rolleyes:
Well obviously, I hear some say, but, sit a few audiophiles/reviewers/dealers in front of a pile of expensive equipment and it seems more often than not that the listeners are largely intent on proving that they are discerning audiophiles and subtleties that are in fact there go unnoticed.
Certainly in my small group of audio nuts, a few, and not always those with the more expensive systems get very upset and stressed when detecting differences doesn’t come easily. :mental:
So, for me at least, the most productive use of ABX is to carry out such tests by yourself, preferably in your own home with your own kit and do a lot of them. I stopped fast switching and intent critical listening as the rule some time ago. I find I get more useful results by relatively casual listening over longer periods of time.
Given under these circumstances the desire to prove anything is greatly reduced (if you’ve just spent silly money on a component and under ABX it doesn’t sound any different from the cheaper one you had before, no one need know if you sell it on, or get a refund). I’ve found this more relaxed attitude can demonstrate some rather surprising subtle difference the higher pressure testing clouds over.
My ABX box is a permanent feature in my system now. If the box itself does have any sonic signature then in effect it is no different than any other system component that remains constant while testing another.
Anyway, to address the OP, while the above method may not prevent that itch to “upgrade” it certainly helps stopping scratching the itch until the credit card bleeds. :D
Hi John,
Nice to see you checking in. Hope life is treating you well in Catalonia! I agree with much of what you've written, but for me, this sums it up:
I stopped fast switching and intent critical listening as the rule some time ago. I find I get more useful results by relatively casual listening over longer periods of time.
Ditto. No matter our chosen path, up until that point, our destination ends up the same! :)
Marco.
How's the donkey, John? :)
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