View Full Version : Improving my vinyl playback
Who would have thought it? A couple of years ago I had absolutely no interest in vinyl or turntables and was convinced that digital was the way forward. How things change...
So after a Project Debut 3 and Rega P3-24 I've wound up with a lovely Heybrook TT2 fitted with a Jelco 750D arm. It's a great step forward and I find myself listening to more and more vinyl these days, and adding to the collection regularly. But where to from here?
I'm pretty sure that the turntable and arm are capable of a lot more in my system, so I'm looking to gradually replace the cart and phono stage in the future; the choices are a little bewildering though and I'd appreciate some input. I plan to do this in stages and am happy buying used. I'd prefer to spend no more than £500-ish on each component, although I may consider another £4-500 on a dedicated SUT later on. At the moment I have a Denon DL160 and a Trichord Dino with the stock PSU.
So far the phono stages I've considered are the Puresound P10 and the Eastern Electric Minimax phono - it doesn't have to be a valve phono stage but I'm leaning in that direction. As for carts, I'm open to suggestions.
The rest of my system is made up of a pair of Martin Logan Vantages driven by a Musical Fidelity A1 FBP and a Meridian 559.
WOStantonCS100
09-10-2012, 03:04
You've got a lot of options at your per item price point. I might suggest you get in on some of the bake-offs that are so famous (or imfamous ;) ) on that side of the pond. (Wish I could.) I have to try out things the hard way.
Some of the stand-by's well within your budget are all the Nagaoka's, Denon DL-103R, Ortofon 2M series, Audio Technica AT-33EV, used Stanton 681EEE and 881's. You could even have the Denon and the Stanton's retipped and still be under budget. These seem to be the ones I read about the most here, though some Benz Micro's, for instance, also fit your budget. Used carts probably open up the door considerably to those that would otherwise be outside your budget; though, I'm a little cautious generally about used carts.
Phono pre's are harder for me. (I DIY'd mine from Bottlehead and love it.) However, I'm intrigued as of late by the Paul Hynes valve phono pre and the one Dominic at Northwest Analogue is working on. The Jolida JD9 is a valve pre at a nice price. I have not heard it though. I thought the Trichord Dino's were pretty good. Is there something you feel you're missing with it?
I'm pretty sure the Bob's Devices Cinemags would also fit your per item price point as far as SUT's go. He has several I'd like to try if I ever decide on an MC cart to try.
Hi
There are many ways to Rome, I hear!
In my, highly personal, opinion there are a few routes you could thread upon:
Low output MC -> Step Up Transformer -> Valve based RIAA
Low output MC -> Solid state RIAA
High output MM -> Solid state RIAA
High output MM -> Valve based RIAA
An excellent choice to my ears is a Tom Evans Micro Groove (Plus?) and a Denon DL-103. The RIAA in this case can handle most anything you'll throw at it with ease, and most LOMC have an output around 0,3-0,4mV.
(I use mine with DL-103, Benz Micro Glider L2 and Ace SL)
I'd love to try the SUT option with a valve based RIAA someday though.
IIRC the Jelco is quite a hefty arm and that should make it a good match for the DL-103. Not the most refined pickup of the lot, but definently musical and entertaining. And the best part is, you can play music all day long without having issues with the price to pay in form of wear and tear. (Well to be quite honest, the DL-103 tracks a little heavier and has got a hemispherical diamond so it WILL most likely wear your records a miniscule amount more than the more refined diamonds, but my point is that replacing the DL with a new one will not cost you and arm and a leg and possibly will also happen on a more frequent basis?)
MVH /Micke
chris@panteg
09-10-2012, 08:07
I have an AT33EV , and can certainly recommend that as it will work well with your Dino 100 ohm ,70 db gain . Or you could go moving magnet with the Ortofon 2m black , if you could stretch the budget , how about a musicmaker mk3 ? .
The Dino can be improved by the PSU+ or the NCPSU , but you could trade the Dino in for a Puresound P10 and get the T10 SUT if required ? The Croft RIAA is another contender you might want to consider ? I'm also going to suggest the NVA phono 2 as it's in the same price bracket + it sounds excellent .
morris_minor
09-10-2012, 08:48
Graham's Slee's Reflex (http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/reflexmmphonostagepreamp.htm) phono amp has dug more detail out of my records than I ever thought they had . . . MM or MC versions, or use MM with the Elevator SUT (http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/mcstepupphonostagepreamp.htm).
Edit: the GS forum run a loan scheme (http://audio-forum.gspaudio.co.uk/uk-loaner-program_forum58.html) so you can try the kit out at home . . .
Ammonite Audio
09-10-2012, 09:02
To get the most out of the Jelco arm, do try a decent quality arm cable. If yours has the pink Jelco Neglex, it is very average sounding, and you can do a whole lot better for not much outlay. As a relatively budget option I recommend Audio Origami's arm cable, and I know that others here have good things to say about the Yannis stuff too. Also, (shamelessly highlighting my own stuff) do think about replacing the Jelco's mounting collar, which through poor design makes consistent setup rather difficult.
hifi_dave
09-10-2012, 09:42
Used an Eastern Electric phono stage here for a demo and it was dire. Not only did it sound slow and closed in, it had a gentle 'hum'.
I would recommend the Puresound and Croft if good sounds and ease of use are your aim.
Used an Eastern Electric phono stage here for a demo and it was dire. Not only did it sound slow and closed in, it had a gentle 'hum'.
I would recommend the Puresound and Croft if good sounds and ease of use are your aim.
Hi Dave,
Are there any cartridges you can recommend as having good synergy with the croft? Something that does Rock music and would suit a Rega deck. I would like to move up to a decent £500ish MC.
Cheers,
Bryan
hifi_dave
09-10-2012, 10:20
Any decent MM or high output MC will do the job with the Croft.
The Rega Exact has a very direct, exciting presentation. The Ortofon 2M Bronze and Black are also worth considering. Good high output MCs are thin on the ground but I have always had good results with the Sumiko models and the Dynavector 10X.
Who would have thought it? A couple of years ago I had absolutely no interest in vinyl or turntables and was convinced that digital was the way forward. How things change...
So after a Project Debut 3 and Rega P3-24 I've wound up with a lovely Heybrook TT2 fitted with a Jelco 750D arm. It's a great step forward and I find myself listening to more and more vinyl these days, and adding to the collection regularly. But where to from here?
I'm pretty sure that the turntable and arm are capable of a lot more in my system, so I'm looking to gradually replace the cart and phono stage in the future; the choices are a little bewildering though and I'd appreciate some input. I plan to do this in stages and am happy buying used. I'd prefer to spend no more than £500-ish on each component, although I may consider another £4-500 on a dedicated SUT later on. At the moment I have a Denon DL160 and a Trichord Dino with the stock PSU.
So far the phono stages I've considered are the Puresound P10 and the Eastern Electric Minimax phono - it doesn't have to be a valve phono stage but I'm leaning in that direction. As for carts, I'm open to suggestions.
The rest of my system is made up of a pair of Martin Logan Vantages driven by a Musical Fidelity A1 FBP and a Meridian 559.
Your arm is a variant of the Sumiko MMT I have on my Oracle, I have had this combo since 1984. In that time I have tried a lot of carts. with it, the best included : Supex 900 SuperII-EV, Denon 103D , AT32E, Benz Micro ACE, Grado Sonata Reference, Koetsu Black.
The Grado is the best of all of them, when it comes to reproducing vocals.
Thanks chaps - a lot to consider here, which is part of the problem. I'd love to host a bake-off and try some of the kit mentioned, particularly the phono stages, but I've got far too many things on my plate for the near future, unfortunately!
I don't see myself changing the high-ish mass Jelco arm in the foreseeable future, so a low-compliance cart is probably going to be the way forward. I may well go for a DL103R to start off with, but I'm sure that better can be had around the £400ish price point?
While I like the Dino (particularly it's versatility), I don't really see the point in spending £400+ on the NCPSU when I could pick up a P10 for under that price. And I would like to try a valve phono. Obviously the order of the upgrades is going to be an issue as I can't use the 103 with the P10 directly!
Interesting point about the tonearm cable, does it really make that much difference? I'm actually using an el cheapo red & white tipped one as the Jelco came without one!
Thanks chaps - a lot to consider here, which is part of the problem. I'd love to host a bake-off and try some of the kit mentioned, particularly the phono stages, but I've got far too many things on my plate for the near future, unfortunately!
I don't see myself changing the high-ish mass Jelco arm in the foreseeable future, so a low-compliance cart is probably going to be the way forward. I may well go for a DL103R to start off with, but I'm sure that better can be had around the £400ish price point?
While I like the Dino (particularly it's versatility), I don't really see the point in spending £400+ on the NCPSU when I could pick up a P10 for under that price. And I would like to try a valve phono. Obviously the order of the upgrades is going to be an issue as I can't use the 103 with the P10 directly!
Interesting point about the tonearm cable, does it really make that much difference? I'm actually using an el cheapo red & white tipped one as the Jelco came without one!
The Denon 103 with a valve phono would probably be my choice too, or possibly the 304 if you can still get one at a reasonable price. For a phono stage, the WAD/WD Phono II or III with associated PSU are well regarded although a bit outside the budget unless you can find a used one. They also often have excellent MC SUTs fitted.
If you go for exotic arm cables, make sure they're sufficiently flexible not to interfere with the TT2 suspension.
Thanks chaps - a lot to consider here, which is part of the problem. I'd love to host a bake-off and try some of the kit mentioned, particularly the phono stages, but I've got far too many things on my plate for the near future, unfortunately!
I don't see myself changing the high-ish mass Jelco arm in the foreseeable future, so a low-compliance cart is probably going to be the way forward. I may well go for a DL103R to start off with, but I'm sure that better can be had around the £400ish price point?
While I like the Dino (particularly it's versatility), I don't really see the point in spending £400+ on the NCPSU when I could pick up a P10 for under that price. And I would like to try a valve phono. Obviously andaethe order of the upgrades is going to be an issue as I can't use the 103 with the P10 directly!
Interesting point about the tonearm cable, does it really make that much difference? I'm actually using an el cheapo red & white tipped one as the Jelco came without one!
The cable mentioned was the internal arm-cable which, like most things, can be improved. I did mine with Dynavector Litz in the late 80s & it was a big improvement but, improvement should be incremental in order to see which combination YOU find best in your system. The standard cable is not the worst out there & better than those that come with MOST Rega arms.
The Grado Sonata, Benz Micro Silver & ACE are all available in high output versions. The Sonata & Ace are better carts IME than the Denon & AT.
The cable mentioned was the internal arm-cable which, like most things, can be improved. I did mine with Dynavector Litz in the late 80s & it was a big improvement but, improvement should be incremental in order to see which combination YOU find best in your system. The standard cable is not the worst out there & better than those that come with MOST Rega arms.
The Grado Sonata, Benz Micro Silver & ACE are all available in high output versions. The Sonata & Ace are better carts IME than the Denon & AT.
I think the discussion of replacement tonearm cables was relating to external cables & not Jelco's internal wiring. Shuggy made mention of the Pink Neglex...which is Jelco's own external cable offering & Shane made mention of cable "dressing" issues when using a suspended TT.
I was given the same advice by Paul of RFC cables (Pac67) on another forum particularly re the Jelly cables not being great at the money. Plenty of others seem to agree, enough to suggest this is not just to sell me a pricy cable.
You can get something of a much nicer pedigree (component parts & construction for not a whole lot more. I bought an ISOkinetik ISOtone as I got a great package price from Benjamin @DUOphonic when I bought my noooo Jelly 750d + a host of bits 'n bobs around seven weeks back.
The spec of this cable is Cardas Golden Cross section Litz geometry cable with Cardas mini din connector (around £45 on its own) & features Faraday cage shielding. This cable bought direct from ISokinetic is £150, but DUOphonic are doing it for £120 & the build quality seems really nice...this doesn't seem a whole lot more to me than Jellys own offering @£80/£90
The Greek tonearm cable generating much discussion on here looks really good too, but is I believe a little more expensive. RFC looks a decent option & I believe Pauls prices start @£125, but he can build you something custom from a nice "Larder" of cables/connectors.
Peter (Plinius) I'm not saying that the Jelly 750d's internal wiring can't usefully be improved....it may be though that it's better than that in the Sumiko MMT which you usefully improved? :scratch: Certainly from sources I've seen so far the consensus seems to suggest that improving on the stock offerings for external cables & a "Shuggie" mounting collar would seem to offer the most immediate "bang for your buck"
B.R.
Chris.
I was lucky enough to bag one of Shuggie's mounting collars shortly after I bought the 750D, so that's sorted :) I did think about the original Jelco cable initially, but it probably makes sense to go for something a little better, although I'd hope anything would be an improvement over the stock one!
I'm using a HOMC at the moment and to be honest am not sure I'd keep on going down that road as it may well be a step sideways rather than forwards.
I was lucky enough to bag one of Shuggie's mounting collars shortly after I bought the 750D, so that's sorted :) I did think about the original Jelco cable initially, but it probably makes sense to go for something a little better, although I'd hope anything would be an improvement over the stock one!
I'm using a HOMC at the moment and to be honest am not sure I'd keep on going down that road as it may well be a step sideways rather than forwards.
Lol, Surayne.
I think you may have have snagged the one from Tom sold over on the Wam?
I missed out on that one due to dallying about. I'm not mithered though as It looks like I'll be getting one in silver from Shuggies October consignment. I think the one Tom was selling was Black, which would have been a poor visual match on my Gyro s.e.
The ISOkinetic ISOtone looks pretty good for the money & is nicely made. Re. l.o.m.c. cart options I've been impressed at how good the Rondo Red is on the Jelco as I always found it a little Meh on the Technoarm, but it seems a much better match wiv the Jelly. My AT33EV is much better still but does come in at £200 more than the Rondo Red can be had for.
B.R.
Chris.
Hehe it was the one on the Wam, think I just beat you to it! Not to rub salt in the wound but it's silver and matches my arm perfectly :ner:
Hehe it was the one on the Wam, think I just beat you to it! Not to rub salt in the wound but it's silver and matches my arm perfectly :ner:
Lol....fair play Surayne, no worries as it looks like I'm now sorted in any case. Meanwhile I'll bask in the fact I've already got a decent tone-arm cable:ner:. I'll bet you're lovin' the Jelly arm though as it must be huge step up as yours replaced an lvx on your current TT. In my case it's simply massively better than the outgoing technoarm, so I'd expect yours is a similar story & I know we both bought the arms around the same time.
I think you're right to be considering valve stages & I'd also suggest considering the Icon audio ps 1.2 which gets a lot better if you replace the stock or even the "factory upgrade tubes" with something more tasty. The P10 you also mention is really good too.
B.R.
Chris.
Well played Chris :)
To be fair I never really heard the LVX on my TT2, I disposed of it very quickly and luckily picked up the Jelco soon after. I was pretty impressed by how much of a step up it was compared to the P3-24 I had before, considering I'm using the same cart. I did consider your Technoarm but am glad I went for the Jelco!
It'll be interesting times ahead, I suspect the only way forward is to pick up bits and pieces, try them out and if they don't work in my system, sell them on.
I've said it dozens of times, most LVX's will be shagged by now, unless they've only had one cartridge and on them and never been messed with from new..
There's a thread about a sooper dooper tonearm cable on here somewhere and Marco seems to have tried most of them out there by now ;) I'd take his advice if I were you..
walpurgis
10-10-2012, 20:26
Who would have thought it? A couple of years ago I had absolutely no interest in vinyl or turntables and was convinced that digital was the way forward. How things change...
So after a Project Debut 3 and Rega P3-24 I've wound up with a lovely Heybrook TT2 fitted with a Jelco 750D arm. It's a great step forward and I find myself listening to more and more vinyl these days, and adding to the collection regularly. But where to from here?
I'm pretty sure that the turntable and arm are capable of a lot more in my system, so I'm looking to gradually replace the cart and phono stage in the future; the choices are a little bewildering though and I'd appreciate some input. I plan to do this in stages and am happy buying used. I'd prefer to spend no more than £500-ish on each component, although I may consider another £4-500 on a dedicated SUT later on. At the moment I have a Denon DL160 and a Trichord Dino with the stock PSU.
So far the phono stages I've considered are the Puresound P10 and the Eastern Electric Minimax phono - it doesn't have to be a valve phono stage but I'm leaning in that direction. As for carts, I'm open to suggestions.
The rest of my system is made up of a pair of Martin Logan Vantages driven by a Musical Fidelity A1 FBP and a Meridian 559.
A few words of caution Surayne.
You now have a nice turntable setup and the Denon DL-160 should not be dismissed out of hand.
Its a very good cartridge, extremely sweet and musical and possibly my favourite high output MC.
The DL-103 may be different, but not necessarily better, it has a touch more punch and openness, but has inferior tracking, treble detail and analyisis. I have compared them many times.
Not much wrong with your Tricord either.
Before you go lashing out money, have a very good listen to prospective purchases.
I've said it dozens of times, most LVX's will be shagged by now, unless they've only had one cartridge and on them and never been messed with from new..
There's a thread about a sooper dooper tonearm cable on here somewhere and Marco seems to have tried most of them out there by now ;) I'd take his advice if I were you..
Good thing I got rid of it then! Will look up the cable, but surely that's one of the smaller bits of the puzzle...
A few words of caution Surayne.
You now have a nice turntable setup and the Denon DL-160 should not be dismissed out of hand.
Its a very good cartridge, extremely sweet and musical and possibly my favourite high output MC.
The DL-103 may be different, but not necessarily better, it has a touch more punch and openness, but has inferior tracking, treble detail and analyisis. I have compared them many times.
Not much wrong with your Tricord either.
Before you go lashing out money, have a very good listen to prospective purchases.
Thanks Geoff. I think the urge to change is probably more curiosity about what other kit would sound like and how much more things can be improved. In other words, upgraditis!
What's driving me now is that the general consensus seems to be that a good analogue setup should be better than most digital front ends. However I still find that my Squeezebox & DAC combo is noticeably better than my vinyl rig. Don't get me wrong, it still sounds very good and I enjoy playing records... but it would be interesting to see what improvements can be made. I never would have guessed that a 30-year old turntable would blow my Rega out of the water, and hadn't heard of Jelco until I started reading this forum!
All part of the fun of the journey I guess. I'd love to be able to listen to every prospective purchase beforehand, but it's rarely possible - particularly with cartridges.
walpurgis
10-10-2012, 22:51
Thanks Geoff. I think the urge to change is probably more curiosity about what other kit would sound like and how much more things can be improved. In other words, upgraditis!
What's driving me now is that the general consensus seems to be that a good analogue setup should be better than most digital front ends. However I still find that my Squeezebox & DAC combo is noticeably better than my vinyl rig. Don't get me wrong, it still sounds very good and I enjoy playing records... but it would be interesting to see what improvements can be made. I never would have guessed that a 30-year old turntable would blow my Rega out of the water, and hadn't heard of Jelco until I started reading this forum!
All part of the fun of the journey I guess. I'd love to be able to listen to every prospective purchase beforehand, but it's rarely possible - particularly with cartridges.
I don't necessarily go along with the view that good vinyl is better than CD (or other digital sources).
I use both and there's no denying they are different, but I love them both. If you listen to vinyl on a good setup and changeover straightaway to CD and play the same album but on CD, the collapse of depth and perspective can be spectacular. But, there is generally a punchier presentation with CD that I like too.
The best thing is not to try and compare them, just enjoy them each for what they do!
Well, I've just picked up a WAD Phono 2 & PSU, should be interesting :)
tannoyman
24-10-2012, 16:40
Hi Surayne
Interested that you use a Denon DL160. I do not know this cartridge but I can thoroughly recommend the Denon DL304 which I use in an SME V. It is a lovely sounding piece of kit with a beautiful midrange. It is a real bargain at less than £400. The only downside is that the holes in the shell are not tapped which means using very fiddly knurled nuts which is a bit of a chore particularly if your fingers resemble a hand of bananas like mine!
Today's mystery object will be a knurled nut.... a knurled nut
David:cool::)
Thanks David, I've looked at the 304 and may give it a try - or a 103. Will need to get a suitable SUT as well, but that can wait for now.
The WAD has completely transformed my system - it sounds absolutely fantastic. It does take about an hour to properly warm up, but the difference it makes is really impressive. I took it across to a friend's the other day and a group of my friends were gobsmacked. My vinyl rig now actually sounds better than the digital front-end, not something I was expecting with a single upgrade. As you can imagine I'm very pleased, although I now have the nagging urge to look for a valve preamp to replace my A1 FBP!
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