Why you must buy a SUT, Step Up Transformer

[MikeMusic]

If you play vinyl you need one

If you don’t play vinyl listen to one and be prepared to change

I’m reluctant to buy more technology and more boxes, but I heard both Martin T’s and Marco’s performing at Martin’s place.
A couple of months later, for clarification I heard Martin’s playing at my place
I knew I had to have a SUT for the clarity it gave my system

I was tentatively prepared to hear good things
After a couple of hiccups I got to hear my new Ortofon ST80SE SUT last night

I know Ry Cooder’s Bop til you drop very well so a good choice to compare my
Lyra Dorian/Aro/LP12 into Naim 82
Sounded good
Plug in the SUT
Stunned
Just brilliant
Like hearing music from outside the room first - then coming through the door into the room
So much more detail. Even better than I expected
This is almost certainly the biggest single step up in sound quality I have experienced in any of my systems
Mouth open, no speaking improvement
I didn’t know Ry Cooder’s Bop til you drop until last night

It gets better
For now I have to plug the LP12 captive leads into BNC/Phono adaptors into the SUT
I also have to plug the wonderful Yannis Tome lead into Phono/BNC adaptors
Thought one of the channels was quiet then realised the connection on the adaptor wasn’t made and suddenly one channel was full volume – even better
With the Mickey Mouse set up I have some hum as well, improved that but more to come so it will get even better.

Bottom line
Step Up get a transformer

Can't wait to hear more music

[chris@panteg]

Nice one Mike , an enlightening experience would you say ? It's something I'm hopefully going to be trying soon , though not quite so high end as the ortofon .

[MikeMusic]

Nice one Mike , an enlightening experience would you say ? It's something I'm hopefully going to be trying soon , though not quite so high end as the ortofon .

For sure
I assume any reasonably good SUT will make any semi reasonable system a massive amount better

[MikeMusic]

Does anyone have the (not too) technical description of what and why a SUT does make such a difference ?

[hifi_dave]

As with everything 'Hi-Fi' there are good ones and bad ones - not necessarily a pancea for all woes.

[sq225917]

Because the Naim MC cards are a crap match for the Dorian. Which version of the MC cards were you using?

[MikeMusic]

As with everything 'Hi-Fi' there are good ones and bad ones - not necessarily a pancea for all woes.

Listening has to be the key
I am delighted with this one

[MikeMusic]

Because the Naim MC cards are a crap match for the Dorian. Which version of the MC cards were you using?

Still going into the Naim phono boards .....
Should I be going into line ?

[hifi_dave]

No, because you need the RIAA eq of the Naim boards.

However, the quality of the combo is limited by the Naim phono stage and you might have got better results by using a stand-alone phono stage, not just a x'mer !!!

[Marco]

Does anyone have the (not too) technical description of what and why a SUT does make such a difference ?

This is a good source of info, Mike:

http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/mc_step-up_transformers_explai.html

:cool:

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


However, the quality of the combo is limited by the Naim phono stage and you might have got better results by using a stand-alone phono stage, not jsu a x'mer !!!

Very little in audio is ever written in stone, but experience so far suggests that the *right* SUT, used with the *right* cartridge, into a phono stage which allows the former to realise their full sonic potential, to my ears, produces the best results.

Often SUTs only work best when there are valves in the equation, but I was shocked and stunned (as was Martin T) when I heard the combination of his Whest PS-30R phono stage (in MM mode) and Choir Audio H7 Hashimoto SUTs, in an entirely solid-state system, totally piss all over the results of using his Shelter 5000 MC cart into the same phono stage, directly into its MC input. The resulting sound of the former was in an entirely different league! :eek:

Therefore, I agree that no SUT can be seen as a universal panacea, in all systems, but get it right (in terms of synergy), and by golly the results can be gob-smacking.... :trust:

Marco.

[MikeMusic]

No, because you need the RIAA eq of the Naim boards.

However, the quality of the combo is limited by the Naim phono stage and you might have got better results by using a stand-alone phono stage, not jsu a x'mer !!!

Ta
A Phono Pre amp is next
Then
<Naim 82 looks around nervously>

[hifi_dave]

What I'm trying to point out is that you might get better results with a complete, stand-alone phono stage than by connecting a x'mer to an MM phono stage.

Then when it comes to the choice of a pre, you might just find that the best has a good phono stage built in.

[Marco]

Yes, mate, but Martin's Whest *is* a complete standalone phono stage - it simply has MM and MC options, as most standalone phono stages do these days! ;)


Then when it comes to the choice of a pre, you might just find that the best has a good phono stage built in.


Yes, I agree with that - which is where the hard-wired ones in the best Croft preamps come into their own!

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

Yes, mate, but Martin's Whest *is* a complete standalone phono stage - it simply has MM and MC options, as most standalone phono stages do these days! ;)

Marco.

Precisely why I'm saying that Mike should be considering the options instead of buying just a x'mer.

Get a good phono stage first and then the pre. Or maybe, the pre might have a very good phono stage built in, like Croft or Albarry for instance.

[MikeMusic]

What I'm trying to point out is that you might get better results with a complete, stand-alone phono stage than by connecting a x'mer to an MM phono stage.

Then when it comes to the choice of a pre, you might just find that the best has a good phono stage built in.

I thought another, extra box for a Phono Pre. That goes into a line input on the 82
then make 82 and Pre amp decisions after that

Are there good Pre amps at this sort of level that would avoid buying a separate box ?

[Marco]

Precisely why I'm saying that Mike should be considering the options instead of buying just a x'mer.

Get a good phono stage first and then the pre. Or maybe, the pre might have a very good phono stage built in, like Croft or Albarry for instance.


Yup, sure. Incidentally, SUTs aside, a good MC head amp (preferably battery operated) can be every bit as effective, as I heard recently with the Albarry :)

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

I thought another, extra box for a Phono Pre. That goes into a line input on the 82
then make 82 and Pre amp decisions after that

Are there good Pre amps at this sort of level that would avoid buying a separate box ?

Mike, obviously it's your money but I'm just a bit concerned that you are jumping in without considering the system as a whole.

You have the Ortofon x'mer and you can now add that to a Croft pre (for instance) and that will blow your present pre into the weeds. By selling the pre, it might not cost you anything to do the change.

[MikeMusic]

Mike, obviously it's your money but I'm just a bit concerned that you are jumping in without considering the system as a whole.

You have the Ortofon x'mer and you can now add that to a Croft pre (for instance) and that will blow your present pre into the weeds. By selling the pre, it might not cost you anything to do the change.

Remember I'm a cheapskate !
:)

If I can keep my boxes down that is also good
Martin T recently pointed out the 82 was now my weakest link and I agree
What about this specific Croft then ?
Where can I get spec and pics

[Marco]

I agree, Dave, but you have to remember that Mike's using a Naim 500 power amp.

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

I agree, Dave, but you have to remember that Mike's using a Naim 500 power amp.

Marco.

I know.

If the concerns are using a NAP 500 with anything other than a Naim pre, then he's already got the system sorted with his present arrangement. However, over the years I have sold many different pre's with Naim power-amps, with no probs.

It's a bit more problemmatical using a Naim pre with other power-amps but even this can be accomplished.

[MikeMusic]

I know.

If the concerns are using a NAP 500 with anything other than a Naim pre, then he's already got the system sorted with his present arrangement. However, over the years I have sold many different pre's with Naim power-amps, with no probs.

It's a bit more problemmatical using a Naim pre with other power-amps but even this can be accomplished.

How is this done, broadly if a complicated answer ?
Is it simple and *not* going to add boxes, work arounds, tweaks and

[Marco]

If the concerns are using a NAP 500 with anything other than a Naim pre, then he's already got the system sorted with his present arrangement. However, over the years I have sold many different pre's with Naim power-amps, with no probs.


You've probably experimented more in that area than I have, so I'll bow to your greater experience, but whenever I've tried it, I've never been happy with the results of using a non-Naim preamp with a Naim power amp, or vice versa, providing one wants to hear what the likes of a NAP 500 can do, when used in its intended sonic environment.

The only Naim components I've had consistent success with using outside of Naim systems, is their CD players, which are superb and can easily slot into many other types of high-quality systems, as indeed is the case with those from Rega.

However, I'm not saying that Naim preamps or power amps can't be bettered - far from it - otherwise I'd still be using my old Naim system, without having moved on considerably from it with the system I've got now! ;)

My advice to Mike would be not to make any changes to the heart of his system until I've visited him and brought down my modded Croft preamp, which we can then try with his NAP500, and he can judge the results for himself. Trust me, if that doen't work with his power amp, and considerably improve on his current preamp, then I doubt that any other Croft preamp will.

Mike, I'm hoping to get down to your place sometime early next month :cool:

Marco.

[MikeMusic]

You've probably experimented more in that area than I have, so I'll bow to your greater experience, but whenever I've tried it, I've never been happy with the results of using a non-Naim preamp with a Naim power amp, or vice versa, providing one wants to hear what the likes of a NAP 500 can do, when used in its intended sonic environment.

The only Naim components I've had consistent success with using outside of Naim systems, is their CD players, which are superb and can easily slot into many other types of high-quality systems, as indeed is the case with those from Rega.

However, I'm not saying that Naim preamps or power amps can't be bettered - far from it - otherwise I'd still be using my old Naim system, without having moved on considerably from it with the system I've got now! ;)

My advice to Mike would be not to make any changes to the heart of his system until I've visited him and brought down my modded Croft preamp, which we can then try with his NAP500, and he can judge the results for himself. Trust me, if that doen't work with his power amp, and considerably improve on his current preamp, then I doubt that any other Croft preamp will.

Mike, I'm hoping to get down to your place sometime early next month :cool:

Marco.

Delighted to try out the Croft here
The SUT is likely to keep me very happy for a month

[realysm42]

Lol you've been on a right gear mission as of late, bet everything's sounding considerably better than say 2 months ago?

[MikeMusic]

Lol you've been on a right gear mission as of late, bet everything's sounding considerably better than say 2 months ago?

Serpently have

Give me a problem and I start looking for a fix !

I have had some very nice improvements and this has topped the lot.

I blame the bigger boys Marco and Martin for leading me astray
:)

and this started with the Karma/LP12 problems and the 'reassuringly expensive' fix suggest by Infedility

I started on the new bike trail when I had to replace a broken mudguard......

[hifi_dave]

How is this done, broadly if a complicated answer ?
Is it simple and *not* going to add boxes, work arounds, tweaks and

With the appropriate incons, you can use a Croft with the NAP 500.

[Magna Audio]

Nice SUT, I think that once you hear what that SUT can do into a really nice valve MM Phono stage, into a really nice valve Preamp, there really would be no going back:)

[Marco]

Hi Steve,

Don't I know it, mate! :exactly:

But it has to be done right....

Nice to see you posting here again. Hope life is treating Maria and you well... Still loving my ebony armboard!! :cool:

Marco.

[Magna Audio]

Cool - Been busy with work and other, er, um internet sites:)

Course added SPU'ness would be good to the above Xmas list too:):):)

[Marco]

Nice one, mate. We should hook up again. Might pop down nearer Chrimbo and sample some of Maria's gorgeous spicy ginger Swedish cake!

SPU-ness? Lol - well I've just ordered a brand new Royal GM MKII, so can't wait to hear how that sounds!! :cool:


http://imageshack.us/a/img831/3250/spuroyalgmmkii.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/spuroyalgmmkii.gif/)


Marco.

[sq225917]

I'd still like an answer on the earlier question- which phono boards are you using? The MM ones or the MC ones. Because the Dorian is 0.6mv which is likely to have been driving MC cards into clipping, while not being a good impedance match for a set of MM carts if you were using those.

Knowing which cards are in the box will help answer why if sounds different.

[MartinT]

Often SUTs only work best when there are valves in the equation, but I was shocked and stunned (as was Martin T) when I heard the combination of his Whest PS-30R phono stage (in MM mode) and Choir Audio H7 Hashimoto SUTs, in an entirely solid-state system, totally piss all over the results of using his Shelter 5000 MC cart into the same phono stage, directly into its MC input. The resulting sound of the former was in an entirely different league! :eek:

Yep. Ever since I went down the SUT route - first with the great value Bob's Devices CineMags and now with the Choir Audio SUT-H7 - I haven't looked back. I don't think direct connection of a low output MC cartridge into an active stage is the right answer. It's all about impedance matching and getting all of the energy output of the cartridge into the electronics. Transformers are the most efficient way of doing that (they can be remarkably efficient, in fact). I've tried a few phono stages, a few cartridges and a couple of SUTs. I have not yet heard a non-SUT solution beat the SUT one. QED.

[MikeMusic]

Nice SUT, I think that once you hear what that SUT can do into a really nice valve MM Phono stage, into a really nice valve Preamp, there really would be no going back:)

All about the sound for me
Persuade away
:)

[MikeMusic]

I'd still like an answer on the earlier question- which phono boards are you using? The MM ones or the MC ones. Because the Dorian is 0.6mv which is likely to have been driving MC cards into clipping, while not being a good impedance match for a set of MM carts if you were using those.

Knowing which cards are in the box will help answer why if sounds different.
Not sure. Would have to open up the box
The boards were designed for the Karma, so assume MC
Infidelity put in a Dynavector which sounded horrid swapped by David to the Dorian

[chris@panteg]

Not sure. Would have to open up the box
The boards were designed for the Karma, so assume MC
Infidelity put in a Dynavector which sounded horrid swapped by David to the Dorian

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Karma and Troika like 470 ohms load don't they ?

[MikeMusic]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Karma and Troika like 470 ohms load don't they ?

No idea
I've always been led by the supplier
My estimate is that the Dorian sounds 'in the same area' as the Karma
I think it has the right or about the right board

[chris@panteg]

No idea
I've always been led by the supplier
My estimate is that the Dorian sounds 'in the same area' as the Karma
I think it has the right or about the right board

Yep , if it's the karma board that should clear that up surely .

[Audioman]

No idea
I've always been led by the supplier
My estimate is that the Dorian sounds 'in the same area' as the Karma
I think it has the right or about the right board

Mike.

I can't understand why using an SUT into a MC board would even sound OK! SUT== Step Up transformer (from MC output to MM output). Something must have been wrong with the matching of your cartridge to this board in the first place. Might also explain why the Dynavector was so bad. You need to step back and re-apraise the system as a whole and make sure everything is comapatible electricaly and sonicaly. Find a good competent dealer you can trust.

I suggest get rid of the Naim pre. Since so many people are convinced they are so good you should get a good price on ebay which would pay for a Croft or Icon pre with money to spare? Now having done that you might hear what the SUT actualy sounds like. You may then want to think about swapping out all the other Glasgow/Salisbury kit :)

Paul.

[chris@panteg]

So the Naim pre has an MC only phono stage ? That means Mike has his SUT going into that ? Oh dear .

[MikeMusic]

Mike.

I can't understand why using an SUT into a MC board would even sound OK! SUT== Step Up transformer (from MC output to MM output). Something must have been wrong with the matching of your cartridge to this board in the first place. Might also explain why the Dynavector was so bad. You need to step back and re-apraise the system as a whole and make sure everything is comapatible electricaly and sonicaly. Find a good competent dealer you can trust.

I suggest get rid of the Naim pre. Since so many people are convinced they are so good you should get a good price on ebay which would pay for a Croft or Icon pre with money to spare? Now having done that you might hear what the SUT actualy sounds like. You may then want to think about swapping out all the other Glasgow/Salisbury kit :)

Paul.
Can't remember all details from each swap, but there was always an improvement.
Started mid 80s with (forget) upgraded to Karma with Grahams and I believe the Karma boards, BNC and .5 conversion to the 32 around then too.
82 came along 2-3 years ago, bought from a Naim dealer in/around Enfield
Problems on one channel took me to Infidelity where they too some time to diagnose. Seems it was the Karma
While this was going on I started talking here and David at Radlett had a listen to the Dynavector which he agree sounded poor.
Swapped to the Dorian - all fine, I thought, sounding around the same as the Karma had

If this sounds like I bounce from dealer to dealer not so
The 82 came via Ebay
Infidelity is my local Linn / Naim dealer
Radlett Audio is a purveyor of fine audio know to this parish

[MikeMusic]

So the Naim pre has an MC only phono stage ? That means Mike has his SUT going into that ? Oh dear .

Sounds superb
What's wrong ?

[chris@panteg]

Sounds superb
What's wrong ?

Mike , I don't really know Naim pre's very well but if its an MC phono stage , your SUT should be overloading it , I would have thought ? The SUT should be going into a Moving Magnet only stage , just a bit confused M8 :scratch:

[MikeMusic]

Listening to Satriani yesterday and today
Now I know why he changed engineer/ production
Flying sounds flat in comparison to Extremist which sounds wonderful
If you have the vinyl of both have a listen.
Could be same on a CD

[MikeMusic]

Mike , I don't really know Naim pre's very well but if its an MC phono stage , your SUT should be overloading it , I would have thought ? The SUT should be going into a Moving Magnet only stage , just a bit confused M8 :scratch:

Me too

Anyone else have thoughts ?
I'd rather not blow anything up

[chris@panteg]

Me too

Anyone else have thoughts ?
I'd rather not blow anything up

Mike , when you put the SUT in , did you find it considerably louder ?

[Stratmangler]

Listening to Satriani yesterday and today
Now I know why he changed engineer/ production
Flying sounds flat in comparison to Extremist which sounds wonderful
If you have the vinyl of both have a listen.
Could be same on a CD

Not a good pair of albums to compare IMO.
Flying is a very long album (nearly 65 minutes), and yet there it is on a single disc.
In order to achieve this some very tough mastering decisions have to be made, and two favourites are bass and level (volume).

The Extremist is only around 47 minutes long.
The compromises required to cut the laquers are fewer.

The CD versions will not be affected by the same set of problems.

[Audioman]

Me too

Anyone else have thoughts ?
I'd rather not blow anything up

Mike.

Don't think you will blow anything up if you are easy on the volume. How far round is your volume control now for normal listening levels? I would think it should be in a lot lower position than inputing directly to your pre. Frankly I can't understand why the overload is not audible - tiring to listen to rather like CD suffering from boosted loudness and compression.

Paul.

[dowser]

Pop the cover off the pre to check which cards are fitted? 522 (or 322 on older nacs) are MM, 523 (323) are MC.

Richard

[chelsea]

If your pre has a mc card you shouldn't need a sut.
A sut is for a mm input.
I would have thought it would sound very loud on the tinniest amount of volume.

Try plugging the deck straight into the pre without the sut.

I'd suggest you get an mm board if your keeping the naim.

[Sonority]

I used a TVC (Stevens & Billington) for a good while into a 250, without any issues I may add.
This was in place of a 32.5 / Hi cap.
Ininitely superior in all aspects.

In my opinion, (and it is just my opinion) the 82 in the system is somewhat of a 'bottleneck' - a superb front end, a great amp that shows every aspect of what is before it.. If wanting to remain all Naim a well serviced 52 would bring big rewards, a 552 would be what it is really asking for, but is £££££.

As has been said - don't get bogged down thinking you 'must' reamin with Naim for a pre, cabling is an easily resolved issue.
My 2 cents :):)

[MikeMusic]

Mike , when you put the SUT in , did you find it considerably louder ?

Nope
The Ortofon leaflet shows the connections into "Phono" too
I thought it a bit odd as I assumed the signal would be so much higher, but there is nowt when I connect to Line input

[MikeMusic]

Not a good pair of albums to compare IMO.
Flying is a very long album (nearly 65 minutes), and yet there it is on a single disc.
In order to achieve this some very tough mastering decisions have to be made, and two favourites are bass and level (volume).

The Extremist is only around 47 minutes long.
The compromises required to cut the laquers are fewer.

The CD versions will not be affected by the same set of problems.

Point taken. Very long album Flying
I shall compare the 2 CDs !

[chelsea]

There won't be any sound into a line input as you would need a phono stage to use line inputs.

[MikeMusic]

Mike.

Don't think you will blow anything up if you are easy on the volume. How far round is your volume control now for normal listening levels? I would think it should be in a lot lower position than inputing directly to your pre. Frankly I can't understand why the overload is not audible - tiring to listen to rather like CD suffering from boosted loudness and compression.

Paul.

Thanks. Good. Same as usual, LP is around 8 o clock, 9 or 10 o clock if I get keen
:)
The Ortofon leaflet says plug into Phono

[MikeMusic]

Pop the cover off the pre to check which cards are fitted? 522 (or 322 on older nacs) are MM, 523 (323) are MC.

Richard

Must be MC
No change for Karma, Dynavector or Dorian

[hifi_dave]

The phono stage is for MC, which is why the Karma, Dynavector and Lyra work into it.

If you plug the x'mer into a line input you will get almost no volume and a squeaky sound because you need the extra gain and RIAA equalisation provided by a phono input.

[MikeMusic]

If your pre has a mc card you shouldn't need a sut.
A sut is for a mm input.
I would have thought it would sound very loud on the tinniest amount of volume.

Try plugging the deck straight into the pre without the sut.

I'd suggest you get an mm board if your keeping the naim.

The Sut has given an huge step up in SQ
Same volume with or without the SUT
From the opinions I've heard the Naim will go.
If that is backed up by a.n.other sounding much better it's a done deal

[MikeMusic]

I used a TVC (Stevens & Billington) for a good while into a 250, without any issues I may add.
This was in place of a 32.5 / Hi cap.
Ininitely superior in all aspects.

In my opinion, (and it is just my opinion) the 82 in the system is somewhat of a 'bottleneck' - a superb front end, a great amp that shows every aspect of what is before it.. If wanting to remain all Naim a well serviced 52 would bring big rewards, a 552 would be what it is really asking for, but is £££££.

As has been said - don't get bogged down thinking you 'must' reamin with Naim for a pre, cabling is an easily resolved issue.
My 2 cents :):)
Thanks
Looking at the comparison within the Naim range I'm guessing that is about right.
I'm happy to look, and listen to almost anything

[MikeMusic]

The phono stage is for MC, which is why the Karma, Dynavector and Lyra work into it.

If you plug the x'mer into a line input you will get almost no volume and a squeaky sound because you need the extra gain and RIAA equalisation provided by a phono input.

Thanks David

So I'm safe with the SUT into the BNC connectors on the back of the 82 ?
Sounds wonderful, as I've alluded to once or twice
:)

[hifi_dave]

If it sounds good, carry on.

[MikeMusic]

If it sounds good, carry on.
Great. Thanks. I will :D

[MartinT]

Flying sounds flat in comparison to Extremist which sounds wonderful

Sadly only the CDs here. I was listening to Flying yesterday and thought it sounded good until I played Strange Beautiful Music. Now that sounded superb!

[MartinT]

Mike - ideally the SUT should run into a phono stage set for MM. I think you have an MC card (it will be if it's for the Karma) so there is the possibility of too much gain overloading the pre. Do you have alternative cards you can plug in?

[YNWaN]

For sure
I assume any reasonably good SUT will make any semi reasonable system a massive amount better

With respect, the above does not parallel my experience at all. That is not to say that my experience is SUT's has been poor. On the contrary, I have found them to work well - but just not inherently better, or more transparent, than active solutions (after all, an active element is still required).

Edit: I am familiar with Naim amps. Your 82 will have 323S (or perhaps 323K) phono boards in it; both are for use with a moving coil cartridge. A step-up transformer should add considerable apparent gain (hence the term step-up) - if it is not then something is wrong. The SUT transformer should be connected to a moving magnet input which would require changing the internal phono boards to 322 types.

[Magna Audio]

Cool - Yes, and you should hear the new new Tractrix horniness, and pre I have now.

I might get a new phonostage too before Christmas, more of a prio than the SUT - would be cool if I to have a listen to that SE beauty of yours...



Nice one, mate. We should hook up again. Might pop down nearer Chrimbo and sample some of Maria's gorgeous spicy ginger Swedish cake!

SPU-ness? Lol - well I've just ordered a brand new Royal GM MKII, so can't wait to hear how that sounds!! :cool:


http://imageshack.us/a/img831/3250/spuroyalgmmkii.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/spuroyalgmmkii.gif/)


Marco.

[MikeMusic]

Sadly only the CDs here. I was listening to Flying yesterday and thought it sounded good until I played Strange Beautiful Music. Now that sounded superb!
We'll have to have The Extremist on vinyl next visit
You will quite like it !
:)

[MikeMusic]

Mike - ideally the SUT should run into a phono stage set for MM. I think you have an MC card (it will be if it's for the Karma) so there is the possibility of too much gain overloading the pre. Do you have alternative cards you can plug in?

Thinking this morning...
I have MM cards for a Naim 62, hope they fit

Will look this evening

[Stratmangler]

Sadly only the CDs here. I was listening to Flying yesterday and thought it sounded good until I played Strange Beautiful Music. Now that sounded superb!

Strange Beautiful Music is a fantastic album, full of music that's, well, strange and beautiful.
Great recordings too.

I think it might be my favourite Joe Satriani album.

[MartinT]

We'll have to have The Extremist on vinyl next visit

I have it!

[MikeMusic]

Strange Beautiful Music is a fantastic album, full of music that's, well, strange and beautiful.
Great recordings too.

I think it might be my favourite Joe Satriani album.

Exttemist beats it by a nose here
Is there love in space - another big favourite

[MikeMusic]

I have it!
Did you nip out on a Sunday to get it ?

[Marco]

Cool - Yes, and you should hear the new new Tractrix horniness, and pre I have now.

I might get a new phonostage too before Christmas, more of a prio than the SUT - would be cool if I to have a listen to that SE beauty of yours...

Tractrix horniness? Mmm... Love it! :eyebrows:

That sounds like a plan then, particularly as Del didn't get a chance to go into town the last time, which she'd like to see, and I'd also like to visit that little antiques place near you again, which sold second-hand vinyl, so we'll arrange a date nearer the time :cool:

Perhaps Martin could come too, as he's been to your place before?

Marco.

[MartinT]

Ooh, anything for a little more traxtrix horniness!

[MikeMusic]

Mike - ideally the SUT should run into a phono stage set for MM. I think you have an MC card (it will be if it's for the Karma) so there is the possibility of too much gain overloading the pre. Do you have alternative cards you can plug in?

Looked inside the 82 last night
I have NA523/1 boards with a "K" on them - for Karma ?
Unforch the MM cards I have are for a 62 and will not fit, NA322/4
So I'm after borrowing or buying some MM cards on the cheap ......

[Marco]

It'll be interesting to know what difference that makes.

I think that one of the reasons why you're getting away with it is that Naim MC phono boards have quite low gain (rather lower than average, IME), which is probably what's keeping any overload in check :)

Marco.

[MikeMusic]

It'll be interesting to know what difference that makes.

I think that one of the reasons why you're getting away with it is that Naim MC phono boards have quite low gain (rather lower than average, IME), which is probably what's keeping any overload in check :)

Marco.

I did wonder as it sounds like it *really* should not work well at all
Surprising that the volume controls are much the same, possibly identical.
Why don't I know for sure ?
It was such a pig getting the connection with LP12 into BNC/Phono adaptors but even worse the crap Phono/BNC adaptors I have going into the 82
Hum is dreadful unless I connect both flying earth leadss to the 82

[dowser]

For what it's worth, back when I ran a Naim pre, I preferred a homc cart into their MC cards rather than MM variants. So definitely go with the variant that sounds best to you!

Richard

[Sonority]

Using bnc / phono adaptors really is not a great thing to do, they are, at best a compromise. You would be *very* well advised to get the correct BNC soldered on correctly (cant remember if they are 75 0r 50 ohm off the top of my head) but make sure the cable and BNC are correct as both are available.
You have some very revelaing kit in use, those adaptors are not doing anything but bad things for you - certainly with the impedance mis match amongst other issues.
As for the phono boards - I always found the 'K' boards to be bright with just about all the carts I used back then, but I could never afford a Karma back then.

MM boards will give you a much smoother ride.

While you have the lid off the 82, if there are any inputs you are not using (AUX, tape etc) try pulling that board from the pre and listening without it.
All the Naim pre's I have used benifitted hugely from the 'less is more' inside them, especially the 32.5. It eventually ended up with just straight thru boards for the CDi - way better than keeping the phono boards etc in place - supping power and doing nowt :)

[YNWaN]

It'll be interesting to know what difference that makes.

I think that one of the reasons why you're getting away with it is that Naim MC phono boards have quite low gain (rather lower than average, IME), which is probably what's keeping any overload in check :)

Marco.

They also have a surprisingly high overload margin; which, in this case, I would suggest is more pertinent.

[YNWaN]

BNC to RCA adaptors should be fine - certainly hum should not be an issue. Also, if the gain is the same then something is wrong. Finally, the gain of the cards is not relevant, it is the overload margin (which is surprisingly high with Naim MCcards) that is more relevant.

[MikeMusic]

For what it's worth, back when I ran a Naim pre, I preferred a homc cart into their MC cards rather than MM variants. So definitely go with the variant that sounds best to you!

Richard

Courtesy of Mark I will shortly have MM cards, swapping out for my MC cards !
Will report back

[MikeMusic]

Using bnc / phono adaptors really is not a great thing to do, they are, at best a compromise. You would be *very* well advised to get the correct BNC soldered on correctly (cant remember if they are 75 0r 50 ohm off the top of my head) but make sure the cable and BNC are correct as both are available.
You have some very revelaing kit in use, those adaptors are not doing anything but bad things for you - certainly with the impedance mis match amongst other issues.
As for the phono boards - I always found the 'K' boards to be bright with just about all the carts I used back then, but I could never afford a Karma back then.

MM boards will give you a much smoother ride.

While you have the lid off the 82, if there are any inputs you are not using (AUX, tape etc) try pulling that board from the pre and listening without it.
All the Naim pre's I have used benifitted hugely from the 'less is more' inside them, especially the 32.5. It eventually ended up with just straight thru boards for the CDi - way better than keeping the phono boards etc in place - supping power and doing nowt :)
Thanks.
The adaptors are a temporary fix only. Think they and this problem I have underlines how good a SUT is for a system
I will have a careful look inside and see what I can pull out
Would love to turn off or dim the LEDs but they look welded in !

[MikeMusic]

Thanks very much to Mark the MM cards arrived yesterday.
I had retired the vinyl playing temporarily just in case
Played a track using the LP12, SUT into the MC cards on the 82
Swapped to the MM cards
Different and better.
Averaging 70db with the MC cards, 65db the MC on the same volume setting
More than a subtle improvement, not a huge jump though
A little more detail in the top end, cymbals, acoustic guitar, vocals
Worth having and a move towards safety - IE not overloading anything

[MartinT]

Excellent, Mike, and didn't cost you anything?

[MikeMusic]

Excellent, Mike, and didn't cost you anything?

Yes. You wonder what's going on !
:)

My thoughts are that we are now living in an alternative universe - since Wiggo won the TdF, then we did so well at the *London* Olympics

and I get a fix for my hifi costing nowt !

[chris@panteg]

Yes. You wonder what's going on !
:)

My thoughts are that we are now living in an alternative universe - since Wiggo won the TdF, then we did so well at the *London* Olympics

and I get a fix for my hifi costing nowt !

That was very gracious of Mark , very happy then ?

[MikeMusic]

That was very gracious of Mark , very happy then ?

Certainly am. Mark will also be happy when he gets the MC cards !

[Marco]

Thanks very much to Mark the MM cards arrived yesterday.
I had retired the vinyl playing temporarily just in case
Played a track using the LP12, SUT into the MC cards on the 82
Swapped to the MM cards
Different and better.
Averaging 70db with the MC cards, 65db the MC on the same volume setting
More than a subtle improvement, not a huge jump though
A little more detail in the top end, cymbals, acoustic guitar, vocals
Worth having and a move towards safety - IE not overloading anything

Excellent news, Mike, and shows that the arrangement you had before wasn't wildly out, as some had assumed... ;)

Btw, you'll find that the ST-80SE takes around 2 weeks of solid use, before 'burning in' and fully coming on song - happy days, dude! :cool:

Marco.

[MikeMusic]

Excellent news, Mike, and shows that the arrangement you had before wasn't wildly out, as some had assumed... ;)

Btw, you'll find that the ST-80SE takes around 2 weeks of solid use, before 'burning in' and fully coming on song - happy days, dude! :cool:

Marco.
Oh great, it gets better !:D

[DSJR]

You mean, you were using an SUT into an MC input? I shudder to think what the frequency response would have been with the SUT feeding 470 ohms, let alone the overload on peaks.................

[MikeMusic]

You mean, you were using an SUT into an MC input? I shudder to think what the frequency response would have been with the SUT feeding 470 ohms, let alone the overload on peaks.................

Seemed ok
Assume the tolerance Naim build in can take it
There was no clipping or distortion that I was aware of

[Marco]

'Tis a strange world, the land of vinyl, where often established 'rules' can go out the window... ;)

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

The main thing is your happy with it , any chance of a piccie of your Naim 500 power amp ? That is a monster of a thing and you got it almost for song , well almost ?

[MikeMusic]

The main thing is your happy with it , any chance of a piccie of your Naim 500 power amp ? That is a monster of a thing and you got it almost for song , well almost ?

I'm delighted with all the upgrades put in recently and getting closer to 'naked'
- the best way I have of describing Martin T's system

I'm working through the system with the odd trip off at a tangent for various

Pic of the beast soon
:)

[DSJR]

Naim didn't build any magic into their gear, just used established designs in the power amps (and tweaked the power supplies to suit) and I believe the preamp circuits share the designer with the Quad 33 from memory, hence the crude 24V single rail supply (I mean +24V and zero. Their "twin rail preamps use two of these +24V supplies, not + and - separately as "everyone else" seems to do I think...)

Like I said, I bet it measures a dogs dinner, but if you like it then so be it. Trouble is, if you want to adjust the tone as you no doubt are, a proper Klark Teknik style equaliser would be a better idea :)

[MikeMusic]

Naim didn't build any magic into their gear, just used established designs in the power amps (and tweaked the power supplies to suit) and I believe the preamp circuits share the designer with the Quad 33 from memory, hence the crude 24V single rail supply (I mean +24V and zero. Their "twin rail preamps use two of these +24V supplies, not + and - separately as "everyone else" seems to do I think...)

Like I said, I bet it measures a dogs dinner, but if you like it then so be it. Trouble is, if you want to adjust the tone as you no doubt are, a proper Klark Teknik style equaliser would be a better idea :)

Twas the biggest upgrade I think I have ever heard with the MC cards.
The MM cards just made it sweeter - and may stop a blow up
We'll have to put an equaliser into a system sometime, just to see how 'different' it sounds
:)

[MikeMusic]

The main thing is your happy with it , any chance of a piccie of your Naim 500 power amp ? That is a monster of a thing and you got it almost for song , well almost ?

I thought £11,000 off list was quite good :)
Put in a silly bid on Ebay and won !

Here it is with PSU and baby HiCap brothers on a special Mana rack

http://s1284.photobucket.com/albums/a569/mikenusic/?action=view&current=500andHicaps.jpg

[chris@panteg]

I thought £11,000 off list was quite good :)
Put in a silly bid on Ebay and won !

Here it is with PSU and baby HiCap brothers on a special Mana rack

http://s1284.photobucket.com/albums/a569/mikenusic/?action=view&current=500andHicaps.jpg

£11,000 off list , you did very well indeed !

[MikeMusic]

£11,000 off list , you did very well indeed !

Wasn't a well thought out upgrade
I put in silly bids every now and again. Just about never win

[chris@panteg]

Wasn't a well thought out upgrade
I put in silly bids every now and again. Just about never win

I can't see it very well in your picture , its a two box affair then ?

Is it everything you hoped for sonically ?

[MikeMusic]

I can't see it very well in your picture , its a two box affair then ?

Is it everything you hoped for sonically ?

The big box at the bottom is the 500, the similar smaller one is the PSU
I persuaded Sally to take the pic. with her camera as mine is less than perfect.
Must try again with new batteries, but I don't get excited about taking pictures

Definite step up up from the 2 x 135s but not huge like the SUT
In the system as it is now it would be interesting to compare the 135s again but that is a lot of work. I assume the 500 will shine
The 135s weight a lot, the 500 PSU is weighty. The 500 is very heavy
Could get around to it sometime

[freefallrob]

Just out of interest guys, my Dad has an EAR834P (MM only) likes it a lot and wants to use an MC cartridge with it (Goldring Eroica LX LOMC), whats the best (read most cost effective) way forward, are the internal transformers that EAR fit any good or is he better getting something external??

[MartinT]

I used to have an EAR 834P and the internal MC step-up transformers are good. I doubt it would be worth buying an external step-up without having to replace the 834P as well, since it ultimately has limited performance.

[MartinT]

Mike - are you saying you still have the 2 x Naim 135s? Good grief, you could make a killing selling those to fund extra bits, couldn't you?

[MikeMusic]

Mike - are you saying you still have the 2 x Naim 135s? Good grief, you could make a killing selling those to fund extra bits, couldn't you?

Er yes ?
:)
I really should start selling things rather than storing and setting up other systems. Lack of time and other priorities

Did I mention the tape decks ? .......

[hifi_dave]

Just out of interest guys, my Dad has an EAR834P (MM only) likes it a lot and wants to use an MC cartridge with it (Goldring Eroica LX LOMC), whats the best (read most cost effective) way forward, are the internal transformers that EAR fit any good or is he better getting something external??

The internal x'mers of the 834p are very good as is the 834p itself. I've been selling them for nearly 30 years up against some very expensive 'competition'.

However, you have a MM only unit, which makes life a little more difficult. Why not contact EAR and ask how much it would cost to fit x'mers or use it with something like the Puresound T10.

[freefallrob]

Hi Dave/Martin,

Thank you for the feedback, I'll will send Dad a link to this thread!

Best regards, Rob.