View Full Version : Now then now then, hows about that Guys and Gals...
Now what could this be possibly about?
Beechwoods
04-10-2012, 20:25
'Everyone was doing it, it was the 1960's and 70's remember'...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19833763
northwest
04-10-2012, 20:53
look, If you have something to say, say it.
Personally I could give two hoots. There is NOTHING to be gained from the TV story and unless you are able to ressurect the dead there is nobody answerable either.
Maybe there is substance to the story, maybe there isn't but i can't see what earthly good spending nearly a million pounds on a TV program is going to do? Apart from keep a few people in jobs and feed a few ego's.
Don't, please, say it ids for the benefit of the victims. What "good" comes out of publicly airing your personal demons? I can't think of anything there either.
TV program quality is on the decline and this is a graphic example.
Okay, suppose he WAS guilty, why wait until now? Why? It doesn't make sense.
And HOW MUCH money did Mr Saville raise for charity to help how many THOUSANDS of people?
Its just fucking tits n bums again, cheap tittilation for a few.
I am totally ambivialent about Mr Saville, neither liking nor disliking the man but i sincerely wish I could generate as much momentum and devote as much airtime to some REAL problems.
Do you get the impression that I have just HAD IT with the British press and "investigative" journalists making shit up, or having other muppets/chavs/idiots/attention seekers making shit up and then reporting it as a "revelation"?
Do you get the impression that I have just HAD IT with the British press and "investigative" journalists making shit up, or having other muppets/chavs/idiots/attention seekers making shit up and then reporting it as a "revelation"?
:clapclapclap:
look, If you have something to say, say it.
Personally I could give two hoots. There is NOTHING to be gained from the TV story and unless you are able to ressurect the dead there is nobody answerable either.
Maybe there is substance to the story, maybe there isn't but i can't see what earthly good spending nearly a million pounds on a TV program is going to do? Apart from keep a few people in jobs and feed a few ego's.
Don't, please, say it ids for the benefit of the victims. What "good" comes out of publicly airing your personal demons? I can't think of anything there either.
TV program quality is on the decline and this is a graphic example.
Okay, suppose he WAS guilty, why wait until now? Why? It doesn't make sense.
And HOW MUCH money did Mr Saville raise for charity to help how many THOUSANDS of people?
Its just fucking tits n bums again, cheap tittilation for a few.
I am totally ambivialent about Mr Saville, neither liking nor disliking the man but i sincerely wish I could generate as much momentum and devote as much airtime to some REAL problems.
Do you get the impression that I have just HAD IT with the British press and "investigative" journalists making shit up, or having other muppets/chavs/idiots/attention seekers making shit up and then reporting it as a "revelation"?
Just because he made millions for charity does not excuse him being a nonce.
I'am glad this has come out as it may help others to come forward earlier.
sq225917
04-10-2012, 23:46
I'm more concerned that it was tacitly accepted by those in power at the BBC than i am that he was a f_cking kiddy fiddler. He's dead, and that's what he deserves to be but some of those bastards, including Rantzen, just let him get on with it- and that's what needs investigating.
StanleyB
05-10-2012, 06:01
Let's not kid ourselves. Many of the things that happened in the 70's would now be good enough to finish anyone's career. Even television programs of the time would not be deemed fit for viewers consumption in this present day.
Singers and DJs have always been known to take advantage of their fans as long as they were old enough to be able to get inside a music venue or club. No doubt it still takes place but the minimum age has crept up now that agents etc. are more involved in trying to protect the image of their cash cow.
I don't approve of what Jimmy is alleged to have committed, but to single him out for investigation now that he is dead does seem hypocritical. It won't surprise me if most of the DJs, musicians, and music show presenters of that era did not have something to hide. But would we have to wait till they pass away before any alleged victims suddenly appeared in view of the cameras?
I used to live in Maida Vale in the 70's and not too far from the Abbey Road studio. The amount of times I saw famous artists stop their Rolls Royce and scoop up screaming groupies until the car doors could barely close afterwards still sticks in my mind till today. I was in my mid teens then and I can swear many of those girls were even younger than me.
Nowadays the young girls prefer to hang around with boys of their own age and the law allows them to buy contraceptives and keep their medical records hidden from inspection even by their parents.
It's a crazy world with shifting morals.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
05-10-2012, 06:32
They didn't speak out when he was alive.
So what's the difference now then, now then, now then?
My wife, who is French, never saw Jimmy before she came to live in the UK.
She said to me "that bloke looks tres dodgy to me, i bet he's a paedophile".
I defended him and said that he was just a bit eccentric and was a legend in the 70s.
Looks like she may have been right.
Beechwoods
05-10-2012, 07:14
The issue here is that he was 'an institution' and that seems to have made him untouchable. If that was the case, that he was protected by public institutions like the BBC, and that the Police sought to dismiss accusations which had substance then it is a scandal that deserves to be exposed.
It's good that these institutions are now forced to respond properly to the accusations put forward. It seems staggering that there are people out there (like the bloke I linked to in my earlier post) that figure this was all just par for the course.
Savile himself never tried to hide his interest in 'school-age girls'
http://timesopinion.tumblr.com/post/32804536645/jimmy-saviles-affections-laid-bare-by-jimmy-savile
Some people on here are jumping to conclusions and are way to quick to make judgements. Stan's comment is more balanced. In my mind there is a big difference between the allegations made and child molesting - they are not the same thing at all.
Beechwoods
05-10-2012, 07:51
What's the difference? The age of the child? The allegations I've heard pertain to 14 year olds. The law is pretty clear when the age of informed consent kicks in.
Beechwoods
05-10-2012, 07:57
They didn't speak out when he was alive.
So what's the difference now then, now then, now then?
Allegations were made before, but for some reason weren't taken seriously. Look at the Beeb's wilful blindness on the subject - no records whatsoever they say despite there being concerns raised such that the then Head of the BBC asked his PR man to check if the papers were going to run stories...
It may well be that everyone was at it in the 70's in which case there'll be plenty more skeletons to come out of the closet. And maybe some justice will be done, finally.
Plenty of countries in the world where girls are married off younger than 14.
Don't get me wrong I am not defending such behaviour. Just making a distinction between consensual sex with an under age teenage girl (which is still commonplace in this country) and child molesting which is a completely different thing.
Some people on here are jumping to conclusions and are way to quick to make judgements. Stan's comment is more balanced. In my mind there is a big difference between the allegations made and child molesting - they are not the same thing at all.
Just because it may have been 'the norm' for people in power to abuse vulnerable teenagers, doesn't make it right, does it?
I think that it's a good idea to prevent paedophiles, bullies etc from working in our schools, children's homes, churches, public services etc.
It's 2012 now and having your kids molested is no longer 'par for the course'.
Beechwoods
05-10-2012, 08:04
I'm shocked to be honest. My anger on this subject was directed at the institutions that covered the behaviour up, but it seems there's quite a laissez-faire attitude towards this kind of behaviour, still now...
StanleyB
05-10-2012, 08:08
Just because it may have been 'the norm' for people in power to abuse vulnerable teenagers, doesn't make it right, does it?
I can't see anyone suggesting that. Remember Mandy Smith? Nobody got a criminal record from it, but I am sure it was not an isolated case.
Whatever the law is or would have been in the 70's, those in a better position than us have always had friends in the right places to evade the law. Imagine being caught with coke in your purse or wrapping your dead wife up in bin liners for several weeks. Where would you be languishing now?
chris@panteg
05-10-2012, 08:39
Is it worth watching this again ? I thought it very revealing .
rBC4JNrybKo
I'm shocked to be honest. My anger on this subject was directed at the institutions that covered the behaviour up, but it seems there's quite a laissez-faire attitude towards this kind of behaviour, still now...
Me too.
Cheers Chris, just watching it now.
Classic quote from Jimmy "No ladies - No brain damage". Priceless :lol:
Is it worth watching this again ? I thought it very revealing .
chris@panteg
05-10-2012, 09:25
Cheers Chris, just watching it now.
Classic quote from Jimmy "No ladies - No brain damage". Priceless :lol:
I thought after watching this ,he has something to hide ? a very dark side to his personality but what ? Louis is a very clever guy IMHO .
look, If you have something to say, say it.
Personally I could give two hoots. There is NOTHING to be gained from the TV story and unless you are able to ressurect the dead there is nobody answerable either.
Maybe there is substance to the story, maybe there isn't but i can't see what earthly good spending nearly a million pounds on a TV program is going to do? Apart from keep a few people in jobs and feed a few ego's.
Don't, please, say it ids for the benefit of the victims. What "good" comes out of publicly airing your personal demons? I can't think of anything there either.
TV program quality is on the decline and this is a graphic example.
Okay, suppose he WAS guilty, why wait until now? Why? It doesn't make sense.
And HOW MUCH money did Mr Saville raise for charity to help how many THOUSANDS of people?
Its just fucking tits n bums again, cheap tittilation for a few.
I am totally ambivialent about Mr Saville, neither liking nor disliking the man but i sincerely wish I could generate as much momentum and devote as much airtime to some REAL problems.
Do you get the impression that I have just HAD IT with the British press and "investigative" journalists making shit up, or having other muppets/chavs/idiots/attention seekers making shit up and then reporting it as a "revelation"?
Quite amazing stuff! So raising lots of money for charity justifies raping 14 year olds ? Really ?
StanleyB
05-10-2012, 09:46
Quite amazing stuff! So raising lots of money for charity justifies raping 14 year olds ? Really ?
Let's separate the raising money bit from the alleged criminal bit. What the issue covers is whether people in position of influence and power can circumvent the laws us mortals have to abide by.
Anyone here been to a bonga bonga party?
northwest
05-10-2012, 10:31
Quite amazing stuff! So raising lots of money for charity justifies raping 14 year olds ? Really ?
and:
I'm shocked to be honest. My anger on this subject was directed at the institutions that covered the behaviour up, but it seems there's quite a laissez-faire attitude towards this kind of behaviour, still now...
Look. I did NOT say it was right so don't start coming to "conclusions" here.
My question is this:
What is the end game here? What do people want from this? How much money should we allocate to this?
Why don't we concentrate resource and effort to issues that are happening NOW. I would like to ask those "critics" above: EXACTLY how much money and personal effort have you devoted in the last week to helping young children - girls AND boys - who are living on the streets of our cities and are being subjected to the most heinous of acts TODAY!? And I don't mean putting a couple of quid into a charity box either.
Go find a mirror guys. Personally, I don't need to.
NOW do you see where I am coming from?
The Vinyl Adventure
05-10-2012, 11:33
im a bit in the dark ... is anything been proven one way or another?
nope.
Just a few women coming forward with allegations.
Saville was (allegedly) using his fame to have his way with young girls...he wasn't raping kids - of which there are people that do that.
Age of consent varies a lot country to country, but innocent teenager (even a bolshy one) is still a venerable one so as the "better and more mature person" he should have known the fcuk better.
So should the BBC if they had a sniff of something whiffy with him, but I suppose they had to protect their "investment" that brought in the licence fee.
Easy to take wither side of the argument but to me (imo) it boils down to this:
What if it was YOUR daughter?
Easy to have a value system you can switch on and off - harder if its personal.
StanleyB
05-10-2012, 11:52
Easy to take wither side of the argument but to me (imo) it boils down to this:
What if it was YOUR daughter?
Easy to have a value system you can switch on and off - harder if its personal.
That's a new argument that has not previously been raised in this thread. What kind of values exactly is there to debate?
The Vinyl Adventure
05-10-2012, 11:55
This thread seems to be about two things then
1, saville and his antics ... nothing is proven, innocent until proven guilty?? not really worth speculating about as no one here is ever going to have the full extent of either side of the story.
2, is it ok to have sex with kids? ... no ...
simple
What is the end game here? What do people want from this? How much money should we allocate to this?
You make a good point. Someone needs to decide whether it is in the public interest to take it further.
The most that could happen is that his memory is tarnished, if the allegations are true.
Now that the allegations have been made, they need to be investigated IMHO.
Personally, I think that the damage has already been done to his reputation, so the only difference an investigation could make would be to clear him.
Beechwoods
05-10-2012, 12:06
The public interest is in knowing if public organisations and the police conspired to keep this under wraps, if it happened as has been alleged. That's worth spending some money on.
The public interest is in knowing if public organisations and the police conspired to keep this under wraps, if it happened as has been alleged. That's worth spending some money on.
Yes -it might end up after many years and millions spent with someone being forced to take early retirement - that is all that has resulted from 20 years of Hillsborough enquires, after all.
I have seen/read enough to make up my own mind on the subject. No need for an enquiry.
The alleged victims deserve to be heard though. Will be difficult for the police/cps to come back with "insufficient evidence" though, without the media/public crying foul.
Take this example from one of the alleged victims:
A school tutor, who does not wish to be named for fear of damaging his professional reputation, told The Mirror he was groped by the late TV star after meeting him on a family outing.
The teacher, now aged in his 40s, said: "I've lived with this memory for years, but have always feared that saying something in public could damage my career.
"We met Jimmy on a day out. I was with my family and he came over and sat with us. I could feel him rubbing my leg under the table – and then moving up to my crotch.
"When I told my family later, they didn't take it seriously. They said I was imagining it or exaggerating and that Jimmy Savile was a good man.
So you are sat there with your whole family whilst a man fondles your crotch under the table and you don't say anything or do anything?
Why?
Either because you enjoyed it or it because it never happened. What nonsense.
Take this example from one of the alleged victims:
A school tutor, who does not wish to be named for fear of damaging his professional reputation, told The Mirror he was groped by the late TV star after meeting him on a family outing.
The teacher, now aged in his 40s, said: "I've lived with this memory for years, but have always feared that saying something in public could damage my career.
"We met Jimmy on a day out. I was with my family and he came over and sat with us. I could feel him rubbing my leg under the table – and then moving up to my crotch.
"When I told my family later, they didn't take it seriously. They said I was imagining it or exaggerating and that Jimmy Savile was a good man.
So you are sat there with your whole family whilst a man fondles your crotch under the table and you don't say anything or do anything?
Why?
Either because you enjoyed it or it because it never happened. What nonsense.
This scenario is entirely feasible to me. I'd say that the majority of teenage kids would have acted the same way in that situation. In fact, I'd be more surprised if the kid had said anything at the time.
Watching the Louis Theroux interview, you can see that people are totally in awe/scared by him.
Some people are wondering if the charity work at hospitals, care homes etc. was a way of buying access to those places.
StanleyB
05-10-2012, 13:39
Some of you may remember Craig Charles from Red Dwarf fame. I remember when he was accused and banged up without parole for nearly a year before his case came to court. It turned out that his accuser had dreamt up the whole story all along. But his reputation had already been damaged and endless amount of news paper coverage had portrayed him as a sex crazed monster in the ensuing months. Once the main case collapsed in court the other alleged victims blended away into the background. If they had a case they would have nailed him especially given his racial make up.
It's not the first case of its kind. Other people of fame have suffered similar faith. So jumping to conclusions so early is a dangerous thing.
At the same time I am not suggesting that such things don't happen. When I lived in Kilburn I had a girlfriend who had come to London to study from Wales. She got caught up in the whole celebrity adulation scene. Free tickets to Top Of The Pops, or to performances in Abbey Road blinded her. Soon after she was pregnant from one or other famous star of the time. She was wasn't 16 yet. Next thing she was back on the train to Wales. Was she so star struck that she went along with whatever was taking place amongst the stars and young girls? I have kept an open mind about it.
northwest
05-10-2012, 13:47
This thread seems to be about two things then
1, saville and his antics ... nothing is proven, innocent until proven guilty?? not really worth speculating about as no one here is ever going to have the full extent of either side of the story.
2, is it ok to have sex with kids? ... no ...
simple
I think everyone here accepts point 2) without much question. My issue is with the amount of public money we are prepared to throw at this to achieve WHAT? - exactly? You can't dig the man up and ressurect him from the dead can you?
I am firmly of the belief (and I have a good deal of evidence to support this but I am not going there) that airing your personal Demons Nationally/Internationally comes to no good. It brings with it a whole new set of Demons.
No, my argument is the same as my argument over the phone hacking scandal thing. HOW MUCH Public Money are we going to devote to these issues and how will we, the Public, benefit from this? Not much. I have made myself quite clear on this point - I am totally ambivialent about the man - what he did or did not do, well I have drwawn my own conclusions but why would you wait until thirty odd years have passed and the man is dead?
Why? Because some Journalist wants to forge a career.
Having dealt with shit like this (NOT kiddy fiddling) at such a high profile I can say from personal observation that the "journalists" concerned are not to be trusted with handing out free gifts! Not just an isolated incident, I have had eight years of it.
After the expose's of recent, all the Journalists in the UK are terrified of stating opinion or reporting anything without a signed Affidavit but if they have a real live "victim" it is open season. Especially when the culprit is dead!
Okay, so was there a coverup?
It amused me to watch the BBC spokesman speaking outside of Television Centre about these terrible accusations.
Television Centre, a building everyone knows is closing - Evidence, notes of the meeting - Now, Let Me See, weren't they in room 301 Godfrey? Oh dear, all documents not transferred to Salford were securely shredded weren't they?
Leave it out.
Some of you may remember Craig Charles from Red Dwarf fame. I remember when he was accused and banged up without parole for nearly a year before his case came to court. It turned out that his accuser had dreamt up the whole story all along. But his reputation had already been damaged and endless amount of news paper coverage had portrayed him as a sex crazed monster in the ensuing months. Once the main case collapsed in court the other alleged victims blended away into the background. If they had a case they would have nailed him especially given his racial make up.
It's not the first case of its kind. Other people of fame have suffered similar faith. So jumping to conclusions so early is a dangerous thing.
At the same time I am not suggesting that such things don't happen. When I lived in Kilburn I had a girlfriend who had come to London to study from Wales. She got caught up in the whole celebrity adulation scene. Free tickets to Top Of The Pops, or to performances in Abbey Road blinded her. Soon after she was pregnant from one or other famous star of the time. She was wasn't 16 yet. Next thing she was back on the train to Wales. Was she so star struck that she went along with whatever was taking place amongst the stars and young girls? I have kept an open mind about it.
Yes, he was on TV this morning and I immediately thought of his ordeal.
On the other hand, you could say that if one case fell through, the others may well have pulled out because they thought (or were advised) that their case would fall through too.
In the case of Sir Jimmy, there seems to be corroboration of evidence coming forward, which is where a case goes from being his word against theirs to a more watertight one.
I rest my case M'lud.
bobbasrah
05-10-2012, 13:58
Yes -it might end up after many years and millions spent with someone being forced to take early retirement - that is all that has resulted from 20 years of Hillsborough enquires, after all.
Totally agree with the above Martin, the only distinction being that the Hillsborough saga was rumbling from day one, and it was only down to the determination of the MANY families that it reached some form of censure against those in charge many years too late. It will not bring any of the victims back.
In this particlar scenario, I agree also with Stan, many a reputation has been sullied, and not just celebrities.
Were this issue pursued say 20 years ago, it could have been followed up, just as it was with Craig Charles, but bringing it up when the guy cannot answer in court seems at best opportunistic, whether there is any truth to it or not.
I hope they keep digging as i guess there are still lots of police,judges,celebs,mps who thought they were safe from there deeds all these years ago.
An abused kid leaves with this for the rest of there lives,why shouldn't they have some fear of being arrested as a very minimum.
In the case of Sir Jimmy, there seems to be corroboration of evidence coming forward, which is where a case goes from being his word against theirs to a more watertight one.
I rest my case M'lud.
I have to admit I am totally behind Martin (Macca) here, who has presented some very valid points.
As to corroboration? I have yet to see any convincing corroboration. A lot of hearsay and alleged victims, who we as observers seem to be accepting as credible, even though we have only been presented with their story and that story cannot now be challenged or tested. Speculative evidence is what I have seen so far, coerced by an investigative journalist on a 12 month crusade to find something on a million pound budget. I have to say if that's all he's found, well you need to try harder son as its weaker than dishwater evidentially.
Aging juveniles is also very subjective and even harder after such a long time - passion and emotion often gets in the way of sound judgement when dealing with offences of this nature and emotion is riding high in this thread. There is often no smoke without fire, but the fire went out years ago on this one guys. I am not taking sides either, be it the 'victim' or Jimmy Saville, but what I am doing is questioning what its actually going to achieve?
IMO the time and money would be better spent trying to catch the guy who will be abusing a child tonight as there will be one, many more than one in fact and there are ways to do this that cost a lot less the £1,000,000, but you try and find that money to go and do it.
This is sensationalistic journalism and ego at work here, not something that in the long run is going to be either productive or protect children currently at risk - what it has done its made a journo very happy and a lot, lot richer.
bobbasrah
05-10-2012, 15:40
.......
IMO the time and money would be better spent trying to catch the guy who will be abusing a child tonight as there will be one, many more than one in fact and there are ways to do this that cost a lot less the £1,000,000, but you try and find that money to go and do it.
This is sensationalistic journalism and ego at work here, not something that in the long run is going to be either productive or protect children currently at risk - what it has done its made a journo very happy and a lot, lot richer.
Well said Tim :cool:
anthonyTD
05-10-2012, 16:11
Hi All,
i have read through some of this thread and would like to add my comments on some of the issues that seem to have come to light about this character, first of all, if we are talking about 14 year old girls in genral, some are more sexualy advanced than others, this has always been the case,and yes, in some countries girls are married at this age and even younger, however, the fact that he is accused of raping these young girls, ie; using his fame and persona to entice these girls in, with a view to assaulting them is the real issue here, and from what i have heard so far from those that have come forward, that is exactly what he did, so, i think for me, the very fact that many people around him had good cause to speak out and didnt is very disturbing, and in many ways they themselves are as guilty as him, for if they had spoken out then many of the alleged victims would have been spared.
I really hope for the victims, and for the family JS left behind we get some answers either way in all this.
Anthony,TD...
hard1175
05-10-2012, 16:24
The question is did he fix it for Gary Glitter.
Beechwoods
05-10-2012, 16:31
I suspect that if they investigate properly they will find others, and they may well be quite alive and still a threat. There's more to this than St. Savile.
RobbieGong
05-10-2012, 16:39
Glad it came out and very glad that someone who has been seen as a great british institution (knighted) and a saint, is being exposed (If much of this is found to be truth). Put it this way, If I had been a victim then it would cut to the core knowing that the mass majority only knew him in an absolute positive light and didn't know about the 'real' JS.
I've seen the Theroux documentary a couple of times. Had no idea about Savile prior to that, he was just a wacky tv prersenter to me. I thought he came across as an eccentric but very intelligent man who thought deeply about things. He seemed to have a good and positive philosophy about life. A fascinating program.
Other than that I have no dog in this fight. What is wrong is witch hunts and lynch mobs setting out with torches blazing as soon as someone mentions the words 'child molester'. There are a lot of people who whilst otherwise functioning members of society have mental health issues and will come forward and make up a load of rubbish in the hope of fame or fortune or mainly just some attention. This is not evidence. You should not ruin a man's reputation with hearsay, Only with proven facts and evidence - so far there are none.
If the whole emotional firestorm that surrounds the whole child molestation issue is not put out there is no chance of ever improving the situation with rational action and we are in danger of creatign a society in which all one needs to do to ruin someone's life is cry 'Paedophile'. Someone could doit to you, tomorrow and you would then be faced with proving your innocence whilst everyone stands by saying 'there's no smoke without fire'
That's all from me on this one.
RobbieGong
05-10-2012, 21:21
I dont know the facts but we are clearly not talking 'someone' saying in this case, there are a lot of someones saying something hence this has grown and not gone away
Other than that I have no dog in this fight. What is wrong is witch hunts and lynch mobs setting out with torches blazing as soon as someone mentions the words 'child molester'. There are a lot of people who whilst otherwise functioning members of society have mental health issues and will come forward and make up a load of rubbish in the hope of fame or fortune or mainly just some attention. This is not evidence. You should not ruin a man's reputation with hearsay, Only with proven facts and evidence - so far there are none.
If the whole emotional firestorm that surrounds the whole child molestation issue is not put out there is no chance of ever improving the situation with rational action and we are in danger of creatign a society in which all one needs to do to ruin someone's life is cry 'Paedophile'. Someone could doit to you, tomorrow and you would then be faced with proving your innocence whilst everyone stands by saying 'there's no smoke without fire'
That's all from me on this one.
Hear, hear :clap:
This issue is highly emotive and predatory paedophiles deserve everything they get. However, the sheer hysteria and paranoia that has developed around this issue in recent years is highly disturbing. When an innocent middle aged man living by himself and of previous good character is forced from his home due to constant attacks on both his house and person because rumour-mongers in the community have decided he's a nonce, there is something terribly wrong with society. What is even more worrying is that the rumour 'smoke' being generated within such a community can act as a shield to divert attention away from actual crimes being committed against children. :eyebrows:
seoirse2002
05-10-2012, 23:05
:clapclapclap:
+1
met the man a couple of times,he did like them young,but even then I had a hard time telling the age of all the girlies running around,and pubs and clubs have had the same problem for years.
If it is true,(i.e.that he deliberately targeted underage girls)rather than just young girls as its not actually illegal if they are over 16,however distasteful it may sound so Im not wanting to defend or agree with it,but in those days,and even more so nowadays,a bit of celebrity would always have them flocking around....and the more of a celebrity you were...the bigger the flock was...
except nowadays the stars and celebrities have mostly wised up to all that for fear of honey traps and bad media exposure and even legal action....so I think theres a fine line there....I have seen many 14 year olds that could pass for 18 or even older.
I still dont see why all these women are now coming out of the woodwork and some of them are saying "it" happened more than once? ....so after the first time,they came back for more?
There's also a lot of strong words being said like abused and grooming, rape and where's the solid evidence?
I dont believe that they were "afraid" to say anything before,in fact young girls cant usually keep their mouths shut and will tell someone who will then tell someone else etc etc and pretty quick someone calls the police.
I think if he was a paedophile,and because he was so famous,he would have been exposed well before now,nobody is immune to journalists when they get a sniff of a big story like that.
Its also easy now as he is not around to defend himself,and a lot of people are jumping on the bandwagon and getting airtime which in reality is moneytime
Perhaps theres a chance his estate can be sued for compensation....now there's a thought....
Stories had been doing the rounds for years about saville.
chris@panteg
06-10-2012, 05:24
The question is did he fix it for Gary Glitter.
Please don't make jokes about this ! Especially that scum Glitter .
Like Nick I am shocked by this I usually keep my opions to myself
JS seems to divide opions, but what we have is very similar accounts made by people that strengthens the likeklyhood of JS being guilty
I am worried how much this was covered up, yes the 70s had different morals but that does not make it right.
I personally believe if we do not learn from history then we are doomed to make the same mistakes.
Personally I wish it came out before his death
bobbasrah
06-10-2012, 07:10
This issue is highly emotive and predatory paedophiles deserve everything they get. However, the sheer hysteria and paranoia that has developed around this issue in recent years is highly disturbing. When an innocent middle aged man living by himself and of previous good character is forced from his home due to constant attacks on both his house and person because rumour-mongers in the community have decided he's a nonce, there is something terribly wrong with society. What is even more worrying is that the rumour 'smoke' being generated within such a community can act as a shield to divert attention away from actual crimes being committed against children. :eyebrows:
An excellent point Dave, but this is no recent situation, nor constrained to middle aged men living on their own.
Around 30 years ago I went to work in a 'New Town' in Scotland where I got to know a baker, his wife, and their young daughter. Really nice guys, but after about a year 'his' history of interfering with a 14 year old girl followed them from across the country, resulting in the rumour mill running riot.
He and his family were in bits about it as this was their 2nd move in 3 years. They uprooted once more and disappeared somewhere down Manchester way, and I lost all contact with them.
Whereas the law found him innocent with no case to answer, society found he and his family guilty by default, on the word of a 14 year old girl and that old chestnut "there is no smoke without fire".
None of the parties involved in the current JS accusations are trapped in a situation where they are abused daily and cannot escape their torturers, nor have ever been so.
A pity the press could not better use their resources to shine a spotlight on the many real and current victims, and help them rather than speculating on a deceased celebrity's past habits......
Beechwoods
06-10-2012, 07:49
If the JS accusations are true then these women have been living with it every day of their lives. Ashamed to tell anyone, not listened to when they found the courage to speak up in the 70's, or only now finding the courage given the other accusations being made now and the fact that people are finally prepared to listen.
This story has been on slow burn since Newsnight mysteriously pulled their story on the matter days after his death, on the night of it's planned transmission.
I see parallels here with the paedophile priests scandal. Is that one where we should let sleeping dogs lie too?
seoirse2002
06-10-2012, 09:29
If the JS accusations are true then these women have been living with it every day of their lives. Ashamed to tell anyone, not listened to when they found the courage to speak up in the 70's, or only now finding the courage given the other accusations being made now and the fact that people are finally prepared to listen.
This story has been on slow burn since Newsnight mysteriously pulled their story on the matter days after his death, on the night of it's planned transmission.
I see parallels here with the paedophile priests scandal. Is that one where we should let sleeping dogs lie too?
It isn't a mystery why Newsnight pulled the story.Newsnight pulled it because they couldn't substantial evidence to corroborate the story,and as well as the risk of being sued by savilles relatives,maybe they were being a bit more responsible by not spreading rumours and gossip about the deceased due to lack of that evidence,and the rules thereof.
One must remember the rules of evidence and the likely consequences if broken.
Freddy Starr has already denied that he was present,or even knew JS,although one of the "victims" claimed he was there while she was being abused,so the accusation had to be edited out of the program....instead of keeping quiet though,Freddy Starr has publicly shouted he will sue any media who dares to suggest that he took part in any wrongdoing and says he will strenuosly defend any further accusations....
I still find it hard to believe that these ladies were afraid to tell anyone at the time,even their best friend who surely would have told someone else,and there are no retired policemen coming out and saying "there was a report" not so far anyway.
As a young boy of 14, there was a local man in a wheelchair that all the kids both boys and girls would visit as he made little gnomes and taught us how to make them,he always had sweeties and treats etc...I think it took about a week after some girl told her friend secretly that he tried to molest her before the whole school knew.It only took another week before a parent found out and he was arrested.He was never charged with anything,but no kids ever went to learn how to make gnomes again....It appears that some of these accusers went back again and again,are they saying they didnt know the difference between right and wrong back then? perhaps,but still kept it a secret until now?didnt tell their bestest friend?or anyone?
I feel sorry for these women if all this is true,but there is still the burden of proof to consider and whether JS knowingly sought out underage girls...if he did,that means over his very long career he was a serial paedophile,with possibly thousands involved,so I find it a little hard to believe that someone didnt talk and it wasn't investigated before he died. So over his 50 or so years there wasn't any ambitious journalists,policemen,or anyone in authority that could find any solid evidence of this? not even enough to question him which would have surely got the ball rolling. The ball is rolling now though and Im sure there will be more allegations,and he is not around to refute them.
Wakefield Turntables
06-10-2012, 09:34
I loved jimmy Seville I grow up watching jim 'l fix it, now however I feel a little sick thinking about the possibility that this could have been doing these things at time. I'm gonna sit on the fence with this one and see what the outcome is before I pass judgement. I prefer to give the benefit of doubt, but now it seems more and more evidence is being racked up against js.
One of JS's nephews, (surely no axe to grind?), has come out in the press with a statement that Uncle Jim took him to many parties, aged 13, where he was sickened by the events he witnessed. The edifice is crumbling, I wonder how many 'celebs' will get dragged in (or down) by the time the dust settles on this one.
Wakefield Turntables
06-10-2012, 12:16
There is supposed to be one more celeb linked to this scandal but so far remains un named, I wonder who it could be?
Beechwoods
06-10-2012, 12:26
The Daily Mail would be first to know.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/oct/06/dj-liz-kershaw-routinely-groped-bbc
Bit of a culture at the beeb maybe?
I don't generally make comments about contentious issues like this, but I'm going to give you my take on the subject. It will no doubt raise some eyebrows too.
If I now for a moment peel away "civilisation" and get back to basic human nature and look at it from another perspective. If it wasn't illegal to have sex with a girl under the age of 16 and bearing in mind that all men are programmed to inseminate as many females as possible during his lifetime anyway, would the incidence of sex with 'minors' rapidly increase in this modern age? There is no doubt at all in my mind that it would and as recently as the Victorian times it wasn't uncommon for girls as young as 12 to be offering their bodies for sale on the streets. One diarist noted that it wasn't unusual to find children as young as 10 "coupling in the alleys and doorways". Marriages between very young girls and older men isn't uncommon at all amongst many civilisations even today, but that isn't to say that I personally agree with that and thank goodness the legal age limit is there to protect young girls both from being abused and let's face it from themselves too, because young girls also have powerful sexual desires as well and let's be honest it takes two to tango yet the girls are never prosecuted for participating in under-age sex.
Let's be honest right now and admit that when we were young that it was our mission to have sex with girls of our own age and it was their resistance which was the prime hindrance and it didn't even enter your mind at the time that you were an "abuser"? Wouldn't it be ironic that the girls of 14 or so you were rummaging around in their knickers all those years ago reported you 30, 40, or more years later and you are taken up before the beak for it now? From the moralistic viewpoint then, it is fine for a young girl to pass her favours around to every spotty lank haired youth in the district, yet a male older than her automatically becomes a criminal - as the story of the 15 year old girl and her 30 year old teacher unfolding will testify. Not a good example but you get my drift.
In reality then, not much has changed since the year dot and it's that legislation plus changing social attitudes that has effectively masked but not eliminated that undercurrent of social sexuality and will always be so despite all the indignations that go on. I am not for one moment saying that these should be swept away and go back to being basic animals once more.
I find it rather distasteful then that some women have only now realised that they have allegedly been "abused" by Jimmy Saville. Some have said "He has ruined my life" which is the biggest crock of shit ever, as if that were the case they would have told SOMEONE about it and those around her would have recognised instantly if that person's life had been ruined. These same women probably had their knickers rummaged around in too by the local youth and they too must have ruined her life as well. The evidence for that IS the silence for all those years and perhaps another way to look at it is she at the time might have got a real buzz out of fooling around with a huge celebrity and bragged to her friends about it afterwards. We can only speculate and we will probably be wrong.
Whichever way you look at the Jimmy Saville thing, even if he was 100% guilty of abusing, molesting, defiling and raping many young girls, what are they going to do? Are they going to dig up his remains, put him in the dock and pass a suitable sentence? I am more disturbed by that particular aspect of the case and the harm being done to his family who as far as I am aware were never complicit in any of Jimmy's alleged misdeeds. Prosecutions or no prosecutions, if someone has been abused then neither the abuser or the abusee can ever undo what has been done and nobody yet has truly understood that simple fact and when they do, justice will have been served.
As for the "victims" I blame them too for keeping silent about it all and I don't see them as being any sort of social martyrs when if the allegations are true the man should and must have been stopped from abusing any more young girls whatever the price and prevented him from ever taking advantage of his position again.
An excellent post Frank. Societal Angst + Teenage Angst = A recipe for disaster
Frank,
I for one agree with much of what you say but I think you are a bit harsh on the young girls. Remember, their hormones are rushing round their bodies and they are experiencing feelings they've (probably) never felt before, certainly not so intensively, being caused by the mutual interest at that time between them and the celeb. Under those circumstances I can understand the girls (that's all they are, slightly beyond childhood) being overwhelmed by it all but regretting it afterwards when the hormones have been quietened and they realise the significance of what happened.
With someone in their own social circle and about the same age they are much more 'in control' and less likely to be overwhelmed, i.e. anything that might take place is the result of a more or less concious decision on her part.
IMHO the celeb is aware of the effect of his interest is having and he coldly and calmly takes advantage of what is little more than a child. He knows what he is doing is both wrong and illegal but he doesnt give a sh1t about either or the effect on the child.
In those circumstances the girl is both ashamed and frightened - when she broaches the subject with anyone she knows she is likely not to be believed, and thought to be bragging about a mythical conquest or fantasising, as many girls of that age are prone to do about their favourite celeb. It also is possible IMO, that they do not appreciate the full significance of what happened until much later in life.
Just my two penn'orth.
Dave.
Covenant
07-10-2012, 14:36
I am with Dave on this one, Franks remarks take no account of the vulnerable mental state many young girls are in when they meet someone famous and the difficulty they would have in telling a parent or person in authority what had happened.
Comparing what happened in Victorian times is of no benefit either, kids were sent up chimneys to sweep them, doesn't mean child labour is right.
Also it IS important that the matter is raised now, if only to stop or reduce it happening in the future.
Dave and Jerry, my final sentence puts my views into perspective and I don't disagree with what you say. There is no doubt in my mind that Mr Saville DID take full advantage of his celebrity with regards to young girls.
The grey area for me is this word "abuse". We don't know because we weren't there, but a simple show of affection like a hug or kiss can and is regarded as sexually motivated intentions these days even though the intentions were nothing of the sort. A BBC employee is quoted as saying that she once went into JS's dressing room after a show to find a girl of 14 or so sitting on his knee and being "hugged and kissed" by him. Now was this just a show of affection, or was it a prelude to a rape?
When I was younger nobody batted an eyelid if you gave a child a hug, but nowadays for goodness sakes, if you took a photo of a historic building and a young child walks in front as you pressed the shutter you might get your collar felt these days. I did some meter reading a few years ago an the hoops I had to jump through to do that simple two minute job in any school was incredible as I was already regarded as a potential paedophile it seems.
On balance, I would say though that JS was a bad man because I think he was a child in many ways himself. He had a fixation with his mother, as far as we know he formed no mature relationships with adult females and an impressionable teenager without much resistance would have been easily manipulated for his own ends. I am no judge or psychiatrist and in no position to condemn, but I still say raising this after his death is both pointless and unproductive.
Beechwoods
07-10-2012, 15:27
I think society has always (at least since it has recognised childhood as something worth protecting) taken a dim view of 'hugging and kissing' by older men of younger girls (c. 15 years and younger) where they aren't related or otherwise having strong familial ties. I think you're in danger of making excuses chaps... :)
Frank,
I don't know if you were referring to the same 'eye witness' account that I saw on TV but the witness said, in addition to the hugging etc. that you mention, his other hand was under her skirt. Yet another witness claims to have see JS watching on whilst another 'celeb' was having sex with a young girl in JS's dressing room. hardly the act of a benign 'favourite uncle' character that was his image.
They were virtually children, largely innocent in the sexual experience sense of the word, most of 'em I suspect full of emotions and hormones they barely understood, let alone knew how to handle, and he was a cold calculating adult that knew how to take advantage of this, and did, in the most cynical manner, if even only some of the stories are true.
Dig 'im up, put him in the stocks (at an angle of 45deg and in view of the sea of course), and stone 'im to death, is what he deserves ;) .
Dave.
seoirse2002
07-10-2012, 16:25
Totally agree with Frank on this about the victims.If they had spoken out or even told a friend that they had been abused,touched,fiddled with,groped,groomed,or any other term thats being bandied about by them,they would have prevented it happening to all the others that it allegedly happened to later on...and thats the part I still find really strange.....if it is true,how did he get away with it for so long?
I'am guessing someone who has been abused feels shame and there is agood chance they will not want to come forward.
Add to that these homes needed people like him to help raise there profile and cash so wouldn't want to rock the boat with allegations from the kids.
The way i see it he is the perfect nonce as he knew how to play the game.
Totally agree with Frank on this about the victims.If they had spoken out or even told a friend that they had been abused,touched,fiddled with,groped,groomed,or any other term thats being bandied about by them,they would have prevented it happening to all the others that it allegedly happened to later on...and thats the part I still find really strange.....if it is true,how did he get away with it for so long?
Your 'theory' only works if they would have been believed and there are reasons to believe that would not have happened, based on recent cases that did not involve mega-celebs. And how do you know that they didn't try to complain earlier and met an unbelieving response? Probably being ashamed of what happened (a not unusual response I understand) they would not have continued to complain and have their guilty shame revealed to all and sundry - lesser of two evils don't you think?
Dave.
Beechwoods
07-10-2012, 16:54
Exactly, couldn't put it better myself Dave.
I'am guessing someone who has been abused feels shame and there is agood chance they will not want to come forward.
Add to that these homes needed people like him to help raise there profile and cash so wouldn't want to rock the boat with allegations from the kids.
The way i see it he is the perfect nonce as he knew how to play the game.
I agree with you Stu that SOME may have have felt dirty, used and ashamed, but surely only one of them could have been strong enough? I dunno :scratch:
Yes, might well have been in that position where his charitable actions were worth more than any allegations, but I still say that someone COULD have blown the whistle surely? If so that makes those people equally culpable by their inactions which they will have to live with.
From what i've read so far frank over the last week is that he may have been supplying kids to ted heath and other mps in the 70s.
If that is true i'd suggest he was untouchable from anyone regardless of any claim.
Frank,
I don't know if you were referring to the same 'eye witness' account that I saw on TV but the witness said, in addition to the hugging etc. that you mention, his other hand was under her skirt. Yet another witness claims to have see JS watching on whilst another 'celeb' was having sex with a young girl in JS's dressing room. hardly the act of a benign 'favourite uncle' character that was his image.
They were virtually children, largely innocent in the sexual experience sense of the word, most of 'em I suspect full of emotions and hormones they barely understood, let alone knew how to handle, and he was a cold calculating adult that knew how to take advantage of this, and did, in the most cynical manner, if even only some of the stories are true.
Dig 'im up, put him in the stocks (at an angle of 45deg and in view of the sea of course), and stone 'im to death, is what he deserves ;) .
Dave.
The witness statement I only heard briefly on the radio where she said JS was sitting in a chair side on towards her with a young girl sitting on his knee, kissing and cuddling her. You say another witness saw another celeb having sex with a young girl while JS watched on in his dressing room.
That still baffles me how these were such heinous acts being perpetrated and yet BOTH of these independent witnesses stood by and did nothing to stop or report what is both immoral and illegal acts. These witnesses need a jolly good slap too by the sounds of it :rolleyes:
That tells me that we not only have problems with sexual predatory males in our society, we also have a bunch of spineless numbskulls who are happy to "witness" but none too happy about reporting illegal acts to the authorities when necessary, yet content to crow loudly to the media many years later. I despair :rolleyes:
I agree with you Stu that SOME may have have felt dirty, used and ashamed, but surely only one of them could have been strong enough? I dunno :scratch:
Yes, might well have been in that position where his charitable actions were worth more than any allegations, but I still say that someone COULD have blown the whistle surely? If so that makes those people equally culpable by their inactions which they will have to live with.
Savile was questioned by Surrey police in 2007 following allegations made against him.
From what i've read so far frank over the last week is that he may have been supplying kids to ted heath and other mps in the 70s.
If that is true i'd suggest he was untouchable from anyone regardless of any claim.
Is that true Stu? :eek:
Bugger, seems like I have only seen a tiny fragment of this story so far :uhho:
As Stan indicated the 70s was a very different time then and remember that the estem JS was held at the time
If you watched the documentry one of the girls did complain but got put in isolation because they would not believe her. Also it seems highly likely that a lot of people knew at the time what was happening but kept quiet.
In my book their is no acusse to target young vulnerable girls
http://chris-ukorg.org/cover-ups/jimmy-saville-witch-hunt-or-paedophile/
http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/bbcs-jimmy-savile-and-child-abuse-cover.html
http://thedisclosureproject-steelmagnolia.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/pm-ted-heath-and-young-boys.html
walpurgis
07-10-2012, 20:15
Regardless of as yet unproven and this late in the game possibly pointless accusations against JS, it has to be said that in the late sixties and early seventies much less was made of 'the age of consent', as many bands and their young groupies of the time would attest. It wasn't such a big deal back then.
At the time, there was a much more relaxed attitude generally. I recall myself and friends having teenage girlfriends who were a bit underage, but gagging for sex! We were only in our teens ourselves and going out with girls a year or two younger. Its a different environment these days, but the young'uns are still at it, you can bet.
It's all about what's acceptable isn't it.
This just about sums it up for me.. Good for Paul Merton
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rogerb/jokes/HIGNFY.txt
Beechwoods
08-10-2012, 14:14
That Have I Got News For You story was a hoax.
seoirse2002
08-10-2012, 16:03
Your 'theory' only works if they would have been believed and there are reasons to believe that would not have happened, based on recent cases that did not involve mega-celebs. And how do you know that they didn't try to complain earlier and met an unbelieving response? Probably being ashamed of what happened (a not unusual response I understand) they would not have continued to complain and have their guilty shame revealed to all and sundry - lesser of two evils don't you think?
Dave.
I know its only a theory,but not one person followed up, or was listened to,or was not afraid of JS over that long a period? I find it a bit hard to believe...as I said in a previous post,there are always journalists and ambitious policemen just looking for the big story or investigation of that type. I also didnt hear any of the women saying they told anyone seriously i.e. a parent,confidante,the police,even just a few years later,when his popularity died down a bit......but waiting for this long? until he's dead? and not around to answer back to these charges?
Of course now we see a big investigation by the BBC to allegations that some os JSs activities may have happened ON THEIR PREMISES...forgive me for being like this but...I dunno,I feel a touch of compensation coming on.
Beechwoods
08-10-2012, 16:19
If a crime is reported and the newspapers don't print it, did it really happen?
George, please bear in mind, if the many rumours/reports now surfacing are to be believed, Freemasons are said to have been heavily involved as well as very senior politicians, up to and including Ted Heath (and I don't mean the band leader :) ). If that was the case, IMO it is not difficult to understand why any complaints might not have got much 'oxygen of publicity' to coin a phrase. The real power in this land, same as the real money, is not very democratically distributed, IMO. Lies are very easy to get away with in this country if you are high enough up the social ladder and I'm sure I don't need to remind you of recent evidence of this, do I?
Dave.
walpurgis
08-10-2012, 18:44
Ted Heath's personal life and sex life (if any) are shrouded in mystery. He seems to have been a rather secretive man, but with powerful friends!
seoirse2002
09-10-2012, 09:38
George, please bear in mind, if the many rumours/reports now surfacing are to be believed, Freemasons are said to have been heavily involved as well as very senior politicians, up to and including Ted Heath (and I don't mean the band leader :) ). If that was the case, IMO it is not difficult to understand why any complaints might not have got much 'oxygen of publicity' to coin a phrase. The real power in this land, same as the real money, is not very democratically distributed, IMO. Lies are very easy to get away with in this country if you are high enough up the social ladder and I'm sure I don't need to remind you of recent evidence of this, do I?
Dave.
Very good point Dave,
Having said all Ive said so far,and since having heard/seen some further revelations and actual hard evidence that a certain celebrity was on scene when he denied it earlier,the scales are tipping slightly...and thanks for reminding me about how certain members of the powers that be,(all the way to royalty in fact)
can keep things under wraps,and in some cases,deliberately tamper with and destroy evidence that should have been in the public domain,and was,in fact, in the public interest to expose.
But now? after all these years? The only thing its exposing now is the public interest for this kind of story,apart from making everybody even more paranoid of older men even saying hello to their daughters,and in the JS case...too late.
Talking about high up the ladder though,no matter how high up you are,when a witchhunt starts,its hard to stop, and all it takes is one high up person to allow the ball to start rolling,and the ball is rolling now....as far as JS is concerned,the plot thickens and I have a feeling that ball is not going to stop too soon.
bobbasrah
09-10-2012, 12:36
Talking about high up the ladder though,no matter how high up you are,when a witchhunt starts,its hard to stop, and all it takes is one high up person to allow the ball to start rolling,and the ball is rolling now....as far as JS is concerned,the plot thickens and I have a feeling that ball is not going to stop too soon.
Wish I had your belief in justice being served George, but the powers that be, if they did not bless this story to divert public attention from something else in the first place, will have all their ducks in a row you can be sure....:rolleyes:
The Press will milk it for all it is worth, reports and reviews will be made at taxpayers' expense, apologies made, and it will all fizzle out.....
Good point - it's already served to divert attention from Levinson etc. but we can hope.
Anybody see Freddy Starr come out of his pad, accompanied by his much younger pregnant fiance' on the news at lunch time to say how vigourously he will deny any connection with JS's kiddy fiddling activities? His fiance' looked to be little more than a child and he looked like a sick, sad old man - (sad in the sense of not being in the best of health). His first denial (never appeared on TV with JS) has been shown to be 'inaccurate' with the complainant shown in the background. Ducks becoming unaligned and bricks falling from the wall spring to mind - what next?
Dave.
seoirse2002
09-10-2012, 13:12
Wish I had your belief in justice being served George, but the powers that be, if they did not bless this story to divert public attention from something else in the first place, will have all their ducks in a row you can be sure....:rolleyes:
The Press will milk it for all it is worth, reports and reviews will be made at taxpayers' expense, apologies made, and it will all fizzle out.....
Totally agree on that one....best to keep on eye on what else in going on and what bills are being slipped through while everybody is reading about JS.
Im sure that are many meetings going on and lots of story straightenings in darkened rooms....and as always,the taxpayers will be paying.
seoirse2002
09-10-2012, 13:31
Good point - it's already served to divert attention from Levinson etc. but we can hope.
Anybody see Freddy Starr come out of his pad, accompanied by his much younger pregnant fiance' on the news at lunch time to say how vigourously he will deny any connection with JS's kiddy fiddling activities? His fiance' looked to be little more than a child and he looked like a sick, sad old man - (sad in the sense of not being in the best of health). His first denial (never appeared on TV with JS) has been shown to be 'inaccurate' with the complainant shown in the background. Ducks becoming unaligned and bricks falling from the wall spring to mind - what next?
Dave.
Dave,
One has to say it....to be fair,he is almost 70 years of age and may not remember all that went on in those heady days of clunk click....and only remember when he was shown the evidence on screen....did you see how young he was then? that was a hell of a long time ago.
The fact that he has a "much" younger fiance is irrelevant,as whether she looked to be "little more than a child" is too.....As an example,Bruce Forsyth,Des O Connor and a few more I can think of have "much younger wives" who were "much younger fiances" at one stage.In fact, I have a "much younger wife"!
Statements like that are best left to the gutter journalists and in no way can assumptions be made based on that.
What has to be determined is whether he had any knowledge or any taking part in JSs activities,or had any involvement in similar activities himself. At least he is alive to defend himself,and his accuser has spoken up....as I said earlier...the plot thickens
George,
Good point well made :( . You are right on all counts I guess but did you see the interview? The age difference was most marked and in the circumstances under discussion I thought it was relevant to mention - in other circumstances I might also have mentioned such an apparent age difference but the same inference would perhaps not have been drawn.
Police are now talking about 120 ish complaints to be investigated (so far?) with 8 cases of sexual assault and 2 of rape firmly established as worthy of investigation, but none involving living perpetrators, if I heard it right, so Freddy seems OK at the moment.
Dave.
seoirse2002
09-10-2012, 14:22
George,
Good point well made :( . You are right on all counts I guess but did you see the interview? The age difference was most marked and in the circumstances under discussion I thought it was relevant to mention - in other circumstances I might also have mentioned such an apparent age difference but the same inference would perhaps not have been drawn.
Police are now talking about 120 ish complaints to be investigated (so far?) with 8 cases of sexual assault and 2 of rape firmly established as worthy of investigation, but none involving living perpetrators, if I heard it right, so Freddy seems OK at the moment.
Dave.
Time will tell, Dave.
It always does,and if nothing else, it will bring a higher sense of awareness for parents of underage teenagers and the need to be always in their confidant circle,so that anything untoward can be spoken about without fear.
Looking back at the JS case it may have been that the alleged victims were afraid to tell anyone,as distinct from afraid of JS, as its well known that victims of abuse can sometimes blame themselves for what has happened to them....whats really sad is that someone that was loved and highly respected by many, may turn out to be the worse kind of predator.
We are all told as children not to speak to strangers,but its been proven that a lot of abuse is actually perpetrated by someone the victim knows,(or thinks they know).
Just goes to show though,that no matter how long it takes,these things have a way of coming back to haunt you,and I wonder how haunted Freddie now feels.
Have you seen this? - more 'info' coming out: -
(http://www.newstatesman.com/media/broadcast/2012/10/culture-permitted-saviles-abuses-goes-far-beyond-bbc)
Dave.
And his grave is to be dismantled.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-19889974
And his grave is to be dismantled.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-19889974
Blimey, that's drastic, but I guess it would only be a matter of time before it was vandalised. I feel really sorry for the family as they are no doubt going to suffer.
Hi guys, I'd like to introduce you to my good lady Jo who has some rather salient points to put forward on this issue:
Okay, lets start this by saying that as a young girl of aged 13 I was violently sexually abused. I told my step mother who chose to disbelieve me and ridicule me.
So as far as I see it there are now 22 supposed victims so how is it that not one of them said anything at the time? Are you really trying to tell me that not one of them told anybody?
I tell you living with sexual and violent abuse really screws your head up. I am no longer a young girl and am grown up with my eldest being 18. My head is still messed up due to all this and the people that should have been responsible are quite happy believing that they have done nothing wrong.
I honestly believe that these girls are just coming out of the woodwork to earn a quick buck. They should try living with it for real.
And there you have it. Personally this story has me reeling and I have very mixed emotions about it. Why didn't these girls go to the Police? If these abuses truly happened then my sympathies are with them, but now is not the time to be bringing it up. The right time to report it was as soon after it happened as was humanly possible. Anyway I find the whole situation deeply disturbing, all the more so because Jo has been through it too and she did tell somebody and she was not believed. Maybe this might have happened to one or two of these girls, but for all of them? That's stretching credibility just a little too thinly...
It would seem the 'jury' has gone along with the increasing pile of evidence - I wonder how many others will be exposed to a different spotlight to that which they were/are used to before they managed to put the lid back on this box?'
Dave/Jo,
My personal opinion is that your above post is just too much information for this place and I would respectfully suggest that you 'pull' it or substantially edit it. I do not for one moment doubt a single word of what you say but I think it is too much information for an audio forum.
Also, if further investigation proves that most, if not all, the current complainants turn out to be telling the truth (don't know how it might happen unless personally written confirmation turns up or a fellow perpetrator confesses - unlikely but possible), the doubts expressed by Jo will not read well.
I repeat, I do not doubt a word of what you say, it must have taken a lot of 'guts' to tell your story and live your life in that shadow.
Just my opinion and feel free to give it me from both barrels :) .
Dave.
I should mention that Jo asked me if it would be okay for her to write something on the forum, this JS thing has riled her mightily. She is happy to let it stand, however if the mods decide it's a little too close to the bone then so be it... ;)
I have no problem whatsoever with what Jo has written; indeed I applaud it, and therefore it's going nowhere! :)
Marco.
Abuse victims usually feel its their fault and it something people often bury deep inside.
What you have to look at is the similarity in the evidence and the methodology. Also you have to take into account that their has been lots of people who have nothing to gain from this backing up the rumours.
It has been referred to Scotland yard which I think is the right move
http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/scotland/jimmy-savile-scotland-yard-s-child-abuse-team-to-handle-savile-allegations-1-2562359
Side-stepping out of this debate for a moment, could I just congratulate all the contributors to this thread for the thoroughly decent way in which everybody has conducted themselves. This is a highly emotive and even painful subject for some, and the standard of debate on here has been exemplary... http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/12795/hats_off_sign.gif
Dave/Jo,
It might seem strange but I also applaud your post - my only concerns were that you might come to regret going so public with it at some point in the future, and the fact that going public with your statement somewhere else might be more helpful to you personally. You will get a lot of well deserved understanding and sympathey on AoS but it may not help much.
ATVB to both of you,
Dave.
Hi Dave,
I can assure you that Jo is getting the very best help there is and thank the Lord it is having some positive results. Believe me when I tell you that the ordeals she went through would have broken a lesser person and I admire her strength and courage. For her to have come out of it at all, let alone displaying such caring and empathy for her fellow human beings is truly remarkable and a testament to her character. I love her dearly for that, and other things... ;)
Dave, that's good to hear and long may it all continue :) .
Dave.
I'am guessing a lot of these girls would have told parents or teachers but would probably have been told to keep quiet or don't lie.
Speaking against a nonce would be hard enough at such a young age,but to do it against a big celebrity and i guess a lot of parents wouldn't want the attention.
As i have said earlier if he did supply kids to mps he would have been untoucable and police would have probably been warned to back off as he would have been holding to much info that would have caused serious damage to the govenment.
Audioman
09-10-2012, 20:14
Having read Jo's and Daves comments I wholeheartedly agree. It is great that someone who actualy has suffered genuine abuse agrees with my suspicions over this witch hunt.
Frankly not the first time something similar has happened where a single aligation of sexual impropriety has suddenly resulted in a flood of accusers appearing out of the woodwork. Apparently the police are now convinced that all these are genuine and have condemned Mr Saville. Perhaps it needs to be pointed out that if he were alive they would have to obtain evidence that would actualy stand up in court. In reality rape cases often fail especialy when there is just one persons word against the other.
It saddens me that all this has been brought up while the alleged offender is beyond the grave and unable to defend himself. Saville has not been an important or major figure for some years and there was plenty opportunity while he was still alive to have raised the alleged offences. I am sure he would have had little or no power to halt a police investigation and in recent years any allegation would have been treated seriously.
I doubt the BBC authorities (higher up) would have had any idea what was going on. It's interesting how the likes of the 'consumer champion' Esther Rantzen have suddenly come out saying they knew about it and where 'scared' to report it. Rubbish our gutter press would have lapped this up at any time in the 70's and 80's. Don't buy the Charity card being played. If there was real evidence at the time it would have come out.
Never been a fan of Jimmy Saville and hated Jim Will Fix It. Not surprised he liked young girls to be honest. But ask yourself what were the circumstances. The complainants may have been former groupies who easily passed for over 16. We just don't know and I doubt due to Mr Saville being unable to defend himself in court the full details will ever come out. What is the purpose of spending all this time and money chasing a dead man? I think any report will only have lasting negative consequences on the 'victims' and friends and family of Mr Saville alike.
There is nothing to be gained here except for the opportunity for gutter journalists to make more money out of human misery. I now hear an alegation dragging Freddie Star into all this. Another favourite of the gutter press to bash.
I think there is a lot to be gained.
Mainly for the victims who have had to deal with this for years.
Also any celebrity or anyone else who thinks it's ok to rape/fondle kids may think twice.
Audioman
09-10-2012, 20:40
I think there is a lot to be gained.
Mainly for the victims who have had to deal with this for years.
Also any celebrity or anyone else who thinks it's ok to rape/fondle kids may think twice.
If they are genuine and they complained rather sooner they would not have been dealing with it for years! Ask yourself what are the motivations behind this? Surely at least one out of the aleged 25 to 30 victims would have brought this to the authorities in the last 40 years.
It's not the fact that the 'story' has broken Stu, it's the timing that is suspect. If the girls involved were abused by Saville then the onus was on them to report it to the authorities to prevent more girls from suffering the same fate. They bear some responsibility too IMO. As for those who have subsequently come out claiming they knew what was going on but were too 'scared' to do anything about it, I hope they are feeling thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Janet Street Porter claimed on last weeks Question Time program that she was very aware of Saville's antics but that she too was 'scared' to report him. That is absolute bollocks IMO. Janet Street Porter has been a vociferous thorn in many an institutions side for as long as I can remember, never shirking from offering her opinion on anything and everything, so why keep quiet until now? Is this a 'Me too' scenario playing out here? She was pulled up for this by a member of the audience incidentally...
I wouldn't be surprised if one of them at least has been to the police and nothing happened.
If he supplied heath as is claimed going to the police would have made no odds.
It's not the fact that the 'story' has broken Stu, it's the timing that is suspect. If the girls involved were abused by Saville then the onus was on them to report it to the authorities to prevent more girls from suffering the same fate. They bear some responsibility too IMO. As for those who have subsequently come out claiming they knew what was going on but were too 'scared' to do anything about it, I hope they are feeling thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Janet Street Porter claimed on last weeks Question Time program that she was very aware of Saville's antics but that she too was 'scared' to report him. That is absolute bollocks IMO. Janet Street Porter has been a vociferous thorn in many an institutions side for as long as I can remember, never shirking from offering her opinion on anything and everything, so why keep quiet until now? Is this a 'Me too' scenario playing out here? She was pulled up for this by a member of the audience incidentally...
I know of 2 women who were talked out of doing anything when they were abused as kids by there parents.
The woman in the film last week said she had told the teacher but was told to stop lying.
People like street porter and rantzen should feel highly ashamed imo.
Could not the fact that even Street -Porter was afraid to 'rock the boat' be an indication of the extent of the abuse and cover up in very high echelons on which she totally earned a living? IMO you need to feel that you might get some reliable support before coming out with such an 'attack' on very important people. If she was aware that others knew what was going on but were all to worried/frightened to be the first (or among the first) to break cover I for one can understand why she kept her head down - forgiving her is not for me though.
Dave.
I know of 2 women who were talked out of doing anything when they were abused as kids by there parents.
The woman in the film last week said she had told the teacher but was told to stop lying.
People like street porter and rantzen should feel highly ashamed imo.
I'm not in denial Stu, I'm know this does happen in some instances, but we are talking many instances here, possibly as many as 120 (info from the news story posted earlier).
I think we are all in agreement that Paedophiles should be punished, but this is a witch hunt, it's like a Black Hole sucking everything and everyone in. The potential for collateral damage is immense...
Thing is dave if confident and outspoken women like porter/rantzen were scared to let on on you can see how little children may have kept quiet.
Allegedly with threats to break bones if they spoke.
I think it would be criminal to let all this lie.
Clear the decks and let children know it is ok to come forward if abused.
If swept under the carpet it is no different to how many thought it should be dealt with in the 70s.
If they are genuine and they complained rather sooner they would not have been dealing with it for years! Ask yourself what are the motivations behind this? Surely at least one out of the aleged 25 to 30 victims would have brought this to the authorities in the last 40 years.
As I posted two days ago, Savile was questioned by Surrey police in 2007 following allegations made against him.
Beechwoods
10-10-2012, 08:20
Friends in high places.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/celebritynews/9596850/Sir-Jimmy-Savile-causes-anguish-at-the-Athenaeum.html
seoirse2002
10-10-2012, 09:22
It's not the fact that the 'story' has broken Stu, it's the timing that is suspect. If the girls involved were abused by Saville then the onus was on them to report it to the authorities to prevent more girls from suffering the same fate. They bear some responsibility too IMO. As for those who have subsequently come out claiming they knew what was going on but were too 'scared' to do anything about it, I hope they are feeling thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Janet Street Porter claimed on last weeks Question Time program that she was very aware of Saville's antics but that she too was 'scared' to report him. That is absolute bollocks IMO. Janet Street Porter has been a vociferous thorn in many an institutions side for as long as I can remember, never shirking from offering her opinion on anything and everything, so why keep quiet until now? Is this a 'Me too' scenario playing out here? She was pulled up for this by a member of the audience incidentally...
Again Dave, I totally agree with you...its the timing,and as I said before I simply do not believe that not even one of them kicked up until they were listened to,or even waited until they were old enough to really cause a stir...but wait this long?
Someone said earlier "they had to live with it all this time" and it seems they were prepared to let others live with it as they said nothing and it was allowed to continue. What must they have thought every time they seen JS on TV surrounded by young girls and how could they have stomached that if they knew what was going on? and the same goes for the other celebrities who are now saying they knew as well..shame on them..its just beyond belief that and now they are talking about dismantling his grave! There is still no solid evidence,just more allegations and he is innocent until proven guilty,but as usual the bandwagon is rolling and they are all jumping on it...I will believe all this when someone in authority comes forward,like a retired senior policeman or politician and admits that it was all hushed up....but will that happen?
JS was interviewed by the police before and if they had any evidence on him,he would have been charged. I dont believe all those people...alleged victims,celebrities,teachers,maybe even police have been keeping quiet all this time...it just doesent make sense.
Friends in high places.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/celebritynews/9596850/Sir-Jimmy-Savile-causes-anguish-at-the-Athenaeum.html
What does that tell you about the Athenaeum members? - rather than risk losing Basil Hulme they welcomed JS - now why would they think losing Hulme was unthinkable? Makes me wonder, I don't know about you!!
And once in that club he was potentially able to make many more important friends with possibly the same perversions and weaknesses that he could 'help' them with - just my opinion of course.
I sometimes think the world stinks - hope I'm wrong :) .
PS George,
When a serving senior Scotland Yard policeman refers to him as a "serial predatory paedophile", his family dismantle and take away his grandiose OTT gravestone and the local council remove house signs and road signs bearing his name it is beginning to look as though there is more to it than just unfounded allegations.
I think your doubts may be ill founded.
The system has failed entirely. Suddenly words like Democracy, Civilisation and Justice have lost there lustre and we are all culpable. There is one lesson every Briton should learn from this, that it is WRONG to turn a blind eye. Too many people these days fail to assist those who are in trouble. 'It's not my problem' is probably one of the most common, and in my view, one of the saddest phrases and attitudes that exists today. The wellbeing of society is everybody's responsibility and we all have our part to play. We, as a society, have fallen from grace. Once we were a proud and respected nation which left nobody behind, however weak or poor. Today we look after number one and blame both those who are less fortunate as well as those who are more successful for our woes. This is not a Britain I aspire to or admire.
Take the story yesterday of the elderly gentleman who was mugged outside a busy, Tesco's superstore in Cambridgeshire. He was surrounded by shoppers as he was being mugged and not one of those 'bastards' could find the common decency to help this man who had served his country, and our society, with distinction. It makes me ashamed to be British, and what's more, to be Human.
The JS situation is the responsibility of all those involved. JS may have been the original protagonist but all of those who remained silent, knowing what he was up to, (and I include the victims in this), helped further his aims. There is no margin for error here, this is a logical fact. Coming to terms with this as a society is going to be painful, but it is now that Britain needs to show her metal, let's not compound the problem by turning a blind eye yet again.
When a serving senior Scotland Yard policeman refers to him as a "serial predatory paedophile", his family dismantle and take away his grandiose OTT gravestone...
Ha - you think that wee morcel of marble JS has on his grave is grandiose and OTT? Try having your own private mausoleum: http://private.mausoleum.com/classic-mausoleums/
I know deceased friends and relatives of my family in Italy who were buried in such ;)
Marco.
Ha - you think that wee morcel of marble JS has on his grave is grandiose and OTT? Try having your own private mausoleum: http://private.mausoleum.com/classic-mausoleums/
I know deceased friends and relatives of my family in Italy who were buried in such ;)
Marco.
Yeah, I thought his grave was a bit poxy, considering how popular the man was (emphasis on the word WAS).
Thinking about it, when I saw the Theroux documentary, it was surprising how modestly he lived, with his small flat, beaten up old camper etc. I guess he gave all his dosh away or just didn't spend it?
George,
As someone once said, "All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing". Just think how many current day situations that pearl of wisdom might be applied to, IMO.
Dave.
Oh my ...
Your letter was only the start of it
1 letter and now ur a part of it
now you've done it jim has fixed it for u
and u and u
There must be something that you always wanted
the 1 thing that u always wanted
now you've done it jim has fixed it for u
and u and u
bobbasrah
11-10-2012, 10:21
....
When a serving senior Scotland Yard policeman refers to him as a "serial predatory paedophile", his family dismantle and take away his grandiose OTT gravestone and the local council remove house signs and road signs bearing his name it is beginning to look as though there is more to it than just unfounded allegations....
And I believe the headstone had only been installed some 3 weeks before....:scratch:
The speed with which all reference to him has been removed is quite remarkable, perhaps a mark of latent suspicions having created a plan of action should the house of cards fall...
Irrespective of his connections, it nevertheless remains hard to believe that these allegations were buried by collusion rather than unproven by evidence....
His connection with priveleged institutions such as the Athenaeum are all very well, but these select clubs are repulsive to most in any instance....
As Dave touched on with the pensioner at the ATM, society has changed very much in the UK, and the extent to which "I'm all right Jack" prevails in this PC world is quite worrying. 30 years ago, the attackers would have been given a good kicking before the police were even called...
I would be more worried that the abuses by celebrities (culture of the BBC etc to which several have raised examples) are not buried with the investigation into JS. He got away with it until death, there are probably many more who are very much alive and answerable....
seoirse2002
11-10-2012, 10:41
I would be more worried that the abuses by celebrities (culture of the BBC etc to which several have raised examples) are not buried with the investigation into JS. He got away with it until death, there are probably many more who are very much alive and answerable....[/QUOTE]
And right now I hope they are all sh*tting themselves and waiting for a knock on the door.
Unfortunately,they are probably gathered in wooden clad rooms sitting in overstuffed leather armchairs sipping vintage booze and getting their story straight.
With the total of women that have come forward now topping 120, it is beyond circumstance that JS did commit the crimes alleged. It is a huge shame then that he is dead and buried and therefore beyond the reach of any justice.
For the victims though there won't be any closure because of his death and they must ask themselves this one simple question to help themselves reach a closure and rid whatever guilt they may have: "What could JS possibly do that would UNDO what he has done?" And the key word here is "UNDO". You could shoot him, drown him, beat him with sticks, set fire to him, tear his knackers off with a rusty screwdriver even, because that STILL couldn't UNDO any of his actions. These are very powerful words because I used them to great effect on someone who had been raped several times when she was young and carried it around for 30-odd years, mostly blaming herself for what happened.
I also feel very sorry too for the relatives of JS who until a few weeks ago were proud of that fact and now have almost had to go into hiding. None of them were complicit in this sordid story but they are certainly paying a price for it.
Of course there are also the calls for "Lessons to be learned" but I fear that too many knee-jerk reactions will result in more children having exclusion zones built around them so any adult (especially male) will have to jump through even more absurd hoops to even look at a child under 18, much less communicate with them. Society will become a product of it's own creation one day and to be brutally honest I will be truly glad to be in my wooden box when that time arrives.
As usual Frank speaks a lot of sense. This situation is unprecedented (I hope and believe) so we are in unknown territory now and it will have to run it's course to a conclusion or until the next scandal replaces it in the public eye.
In my view our Establishment, with it's Public School ethos which has been in place now for hundreds of years, has developed into an almost impregnable force, certainly as far as public complaints are concerned. The odd carbuncle breaks through the surface from time to time but is quickly plastered over (read 'whitewashed') but terminal wounds or even serious incisions into this 'body' of government are impossible in the present circumstances. In my view this is in part responsible for how long JS got away with his crimes as he had got himself accepted into this group (think Athenaeum).
It looks like this story has a lot of milage left.
Just hope it dosen't end up another cover up.
icehockeyboy
11-10-2012, 12:12
As some folk here know, I'm in the radio business, and met JS, who seemed a nice guy, as to whether he is guilty as charged, I have no idea.
What I noticed in an earlier post is how the imagination of a teenager can work, and reminded me of something that happened to me.
One part of the PR thing at a lot of radio stations is getting out to various places to promote the station and hopefully add more listeners.
I went along to a school where I did my "selling" spiel etc, chatted to some pupils, and teachers too, and left, not giving it a further thought.
Around a month later some of the girls saw me at a gig and pointed out that one of the other girls dads was coming after me with a shotgun!
It seems that this girl had been telling her friends we were an item and her dad had found out!
She was actually 16 so the underage thing wasn't relevant, but the trouble this could have caused me, my family and career could have been horrendous, luckily I contacted her dad and had a word, but I dread to think of the outcome if he hadn't believed me!
No smoke without fire? Sometimes there is!
seoirse2002
11-10-2012, 14:37
As some folk here know, I'm in the radio business, and met JS, who seemed a nice guy, as to whether he is guilty as charged, I have no idea.
What I noticed in an earlier post is how the imagination of a teenager can work, and reminded me of something that happened to me.
One part of the PR thing at a lot of radio stations is getting out to various places to promote the station and hopefully add more listeners.
I went along to a school where I did my "selling" spiel etc, chatted to some pupils, and teachers too, and left, not giving it a further thought.
Around a month later some of the girls saw me at a gig and pointed out that one of the other girls dads was coming after me with a shotgun!
It seems that this girl had been telling her friends we were an item and her dad had found out!
She was actually 16 so the underage thing wasn't relevant, but the trouble this could have caused me, my family and career could have been horrendous, luckily I contacted her dad and had a word, but I dread to think of the outcome if he hadn't believed me!
No smoke without fire? Sometimes there is!
You better believe it!!...I know that one very well Craig and after a nasty (and untrue)accusation was directed at a fellow presenter in the 80s causing him to be fired,I never went anywhere without my girlfriend who kept them all at bay:cool: obviously in her own interest too:)
Audioman
12-10-2012, 14:29
Judging by the latest accusations regarding Jim's hospital activities and willingness of some witnesses (note not the actual victims) to show themselves on TV there is obviously truth in some of the accusations. One thing is certain is that many accusations will be false or beyond any degree of proof.
It does beggar belief that nothing came out before and it appears so far no formal complaints were ever made to the police. The burning question is why all this took off only after another tabloid style journalist witch hunt. It appears victims only emerged when confronted by journalists hungry for sensationalist fodder for their programme. It is possible there were rumours going round but why wait a year after JS's death to bring all this out?
Also we must bear in mind cultural changes. I don't think 'dirty old men' were perceived as 'serial sex offenders' 40 years ago and probably regarded as something of a joke to people witnessing their activities. It's likely most of this involved isolated incidences of fondling women which were brushed aside by those who saw what went on. Obviously a disturbing experience for the girls involved but not something that they would feel able to report to the authorities. If there were cases of rape I am rather surprised that an accusation did not come out.
However I must say the individuals saying they always knew about it are bloody hypocrites as the likely truth is at the time they laughed and shrugged JS's rumoured activities off like many others certainly did. The culture at the BBC was likely little different than general society at the time. The term Peodiophile had not been invented or was liittle known at the time. I certainly had never heard it used in the 70's and 80's.
As has been expressed I feel sorry for the innocent relatives of JS who have panicked in the face of the publicity. I am surprised that the over the top tombstone was even allowed as cemetaries are pretty strict as to what can be put up. These do take a long time to organise and have made by the stonemasons and that one must have cost a small fortune.
While I congratulate the tone of this discussion there is a disturbing trend of armchair socialism creeping in. I just don't buy all these suggestions of high society and government (usualy Tory) cover up. Let's face it there was no evidence and there still is little or no evidence that would secure a conviction. For most of these accusations there likely will never be and I wonder if JS were still alive many would be prepared to stand up in court as witnesses.
Strangely all this brings me back to sensational tabloid journalism. I hope the success of digging up Sir Jim's evil deeds is not used to justify inaction against intrusive press activity. There are already fears that the government may sweep the Levinson report under the carpet.
There is one lesson every Briton should learn from this, that it is WRONG to turn a blind eye. Too many people these days fail to assist those who are in trouble. 'It's not my problem' is probably one of the most common, and in my view, one of the saddest phrases and attitudes that exists today. The wellbeing of society is everybody's responsibility and we all have our part to play.
Well said Dave and I concur 100% but I bet this will make not one jot of difference to societies current 'blame culture', its too ingrained in many peoples psyche these days. I'm not sure how we can ever change it either :scratch:
Oh ffs :doh:
John Peel (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19933274)
Call the Spanish Inquisition... (insert your irony smiley here)
It just gets better: "She said: ‘He [Peel] must have known I was still at school. But he didn’t ask and I didn’t tell him." So how could he know??? Stupid bint...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2216453/John-Peel-got-pregnant-I-15-Woman-claims-month-affair-DJ.html
Sorry guys but this is making my blood boil... :steam:
Don't read anything the Mail spews out Dave, as that's all it will ever do to your blood.
I refuse to read it or anything like it, which works for me ;)
The burning question is why all this took off only after another tabloid style journalist witch hunt. It appears victims only emerged when confronted by journalists hungry for sensationalist fodder for their programme
But in many cases the victim assumes they are the only one (and from some of the reports when they did tell someone they were ignored), and its only as others speak up they feel safe to raise their hand again.
Oh ffs :doh:
John Peel (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19933274)
Call the Spanish Inquisition... (insert your irony smiley here)
It just gets better: "She said: ‘He [Peel] must have known I was still at school. But he didn’t ask and I didn’t tell him." So how could he know??? Stupid bint...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2216453/John-Peel-got-pregnant-I-15-Woman-claims-month-affair-DJ.html
Sorry guys but this is making my blood boil... :steam:
She needs a dull slap on the chops with the back end of a broom handle, for her idiocy!
Marco.
But in many cases the victim assumes they are the only one (and from some of the reports when they did tell someone they were ignored), and its only as others speak up they feel safe to raise their hand again.
I think you have hit the nail on the head there Nick.
StanleyB
13-10-2012, 09:21
I just heard on the news that legal action against the BBC for compensation might be on the cards. Whilst I sympathise with those who are genuine victims, I am not so keen on having my TV licence fee being used to settle any claim.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
13-10-2012, 17:36
I just heard on the news that legal action against the BBC for compensation might be on the cards. Whilst I sympathise with those who are genuine victims, I am not so keen on having my TV licence fee being used to settle any claim.
Why ever not? Compared to what the BBC waste money on now that seems reasonable.
The BBC has gone from being a well respected news gathering organisation to a complete joke. Their news judgement is generally abysmal. They hardly ever break a decent story and most of their highly paid management journalists wouldn't know a good news story if it hit them on the back of the head. Middle class, ex-public school tossers who don't know the meaning of proper journalism. As you'll see soon, they didn't run the Savile Newsnight story because they're gutless as well as clueless.
I spent a few years working for the BBC and quite honestly I was shocked at what a dysfunctional organisation it is. Completely up its own arse, politically correct beyond belief and totally out of touch with viewers/listeners.
I could go on and on and on but would just add that I quit which is unusual for me. I'm more used to being sacked. 7398
BBC has forgotten this. Cue Dr David Kelly story. The one they have but choose not to broadcast.
seoirse2002
13-10-2012, 23:26
I just heard on the news that legal action against the BBC for compensation might be on the cards. Whilst I sympathise with those who are genuine victims, I am not so keen on having my TV licence fee being used to settle any claim.
I mentioned that I could feel a touch of compensation coming on early in the thread...I just knew compo would rear its ugly head as I coulden't see any other reason for all this to come out after the demise of JS when it could have easily come out much earlier.....now they will have to contend with a flood of people saying they were victims and nobody to refute it.
seoirse2002
13-10-2012, 23:46
But in many cases the victim assumes they are the only one (and from some of the reports when they did tell someone they were ignored), and its only as others speak up they feel safe to raise their hand again.
I doubt if the alleged victims thought they were the only one as apparently JSs fondness for young girls was very well known and he made no secret of that himself....it has yet to be proven conclusively that he had a deliberate fondness for underage girls and deliberately sought them out,which is really what this is all about and many seem to have lost sight of that..
It may be that as others speak up,more will follow,but with the prospect of the BBC maybe having to pay out compensation,how many of these will be genuine,if any?...its very easy to make accusations if the person you're accusing is deceased.
I still have a feeling that the bandwagon has only just started rolling and the woodwork is expecting a lot of traffic....if the BBC sets a precedent of paying out compensation,the floodgates are going to open,and we are going to see quite a few more celebrities "outed" for their previous (alleged)behaviour.
The fan is turning,and the excrement is heading towards it...fast
icehockeyboy
13-10-2012, 23:53
I saw an amusing thing on Facebook that said "in an effort to save time, could females that hadn't been groped by Jimmy Saville come forward please"
I doubt if the alleged victims thought they were the only one as apparently JSs fondness for young girls was very well known and he made no secret of that himself....it has yet to be proven conclusively that he had a deliberate fondness for underage girls and deliberately sought them out,which is really what this is all about and many seem to have lost sight of that..
It may be that as others speak up,more will follow,but with the prospect of the BBC maybe having to pay out compensation,how many of these will be genuine,if any?...its very easy to make accusations if the person you're accusing is deceased.
I still have a feeling that the bandwagon has only just started rolling and the woodwork is expecting a lot of traffic....if the BBC sets a precedent of paying out compensation,the floodgates are going to open,and we are going to see quite a few more celebrities "outed" for their previous (alleged)behaviour.
The fan is turning,and the excrement is heading towards it...fast
Seems pretty conclusive to me what he was upto.
it has yet to be proven conclusively that he had a deliberate fondness for underage girls and deliberately sought them out,which is really what this is all about and many seem to have lost sight of that..
Maybe, but it seems that he also sought out young girls in vulnerable positions, while I don't know the legality of that I am sure of my position of the morality of it.
Even if non of the girls involved had been under-age, the fact that it seems to have been a known secret and yet still he was allowed to take up positions where he had access to girls shows something is broken, and we need to know if it could still (or does) happen.
According to this morning's observer, whilst there may not be anyone operating with Savile's voracious appetite at the moment (but then again, who knows?), the culture that allowed him to get away with it for so long is still flourishing:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/oct/14/savile-tv-culture-of-female-harassment
StanleyB
10-11-2012, 08:10
Some people on here are jumping to conclusions and are way to quick to make judgements. Stan's comment is more balanced. In my mind there is a big difference between the allegations made and child molesting - they are not the same thing at all.
Weeks later my cautious approach to the stories and allegations is turning out to be justified.
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