Usb cables

[wee tee cee]

I use a belkin usb from lap top to v link.Having heard a few different cables at a mates I am concious gains can be had. I need a 5m run.Any recommendations.

[sq225917]

Yeh, the Belkin cable that you already use. It's unlikely that a cable from a hifi brand will even match the specified USB standard impedance- yet alone actually improve things. If you really want to make a genuine difference buy a usb isolator.

https://www.olimex.com/Products/Modules/Interface/USB-ISO/
http://www.lipoly.de/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=209711

Both of these will do more to resolve any issues you may have relating to poor grounding, or noise on the 5v line then any usb cable possibly could.

[wee tee cee]

I listened to a few usb cables between lap top/dedicated server and a tfs all using a v link/coax connection to a variety of dacs. I heard a variety of usb cables they all sounded different, the tellurium cable noticeably the best, but well outside of my budget. Just looking to see if the troops have tried different cables and can vouch for them. I noticed a furutech and supra that are within my budget....

I know its just ones and zeros but I tend to trust my ears.....

[brian2957]

Still the Furutech F2 for me mate.

[NRG]

Unfortunately theres no such thing as a perfect USB cable. The spec is so loose regarding ideal impedance and capacitance that its a bit of a lottery if you get a cable that matches the receiving or source device. An isolator is a good idea but don't dismiss the possible affects of USB cable impedance and capacitance.

[sq225917]

The USb cable and connector impedance spec has been set in stone since the first version of the spec, it's not in any way 'loose'. it's 90 ohms, no more no less, end of story. There's no spec for capacitance in the connecting cables written into the standard.

It can be polluted by RFI from source or environment, so shielding counts, breaking ground loops can be beneficial in some instances, as can breaking the 5v line and filtering it out via an isolator wherever needed. But honestly your usb dac should be galvanically isolated, if it isn't it's not really up to the task of being connected to a computer.

[NRG]

The USb cable and connector impedance spec has been set in stone since the first version of the spec, it's not in any way 'loose'. it's 90 ohms, no more no less, end of story. There's no spec for capacitance in the connecting cables written into the standard.

It can be polluted by RFI from source or environment, so shielding counts, breaking ground loops can be beneficial in some instances, as can breaking the 5v line and filtering it out via an isolator wherever needed. But honestly your usb dac should be galvanically isolated, if it isn't it's not really up to the task of being connected to a computer.

Actually the spec is quite loose. There’s a tolerance on rise time which is affected by capacitive loads and a poor cable may take it out of spec. The misuse of ferrite rings for EMI compliance can also take a cable out of spec. The ideal characteristic impedance is stated as 90 Ohm but has a tolerance of +/– 15% and can be affected by poor implementation and layout in the source and target device. In reality termination varies greatly between devices. There’s a whole section in the USB sec for physical and electrical testing of cables for inclusion on the integrators approved list, it’s very thorough… testing for propagation delay, skew, attenuation and impedance… even testing for contact resistance and connector conformity. I strongly doubt that many of the available cables today have been through such testing as the cost would be prohibitive for many…and certainly not in the world of audio!

I could imagine that if every cable was made to meet the USB specifications then there would be little to tell between them but the reality is there’s and awful lot of cheap n nasty stuff out there and also some quite ridiculously priced stuff to tempt the audio buff that simply wont meet the spec. Belkin most likely do though, as they are an approved USB integrator.

[NRG]

Thought I'd just throw this is in, from the USB FAQ:

Q: But the maximum allowable termination is 44 ohms! A 28 ohm termination is also within spec. Why?

A: USB termination requirements are quite lenient. For example, a 0 to 3.6V signal input into a 51.75 ohm line with a 28 ohm source termination will swing between 4.6 and -1.0V-this is where the voltage levels in figure 7-1 of the USB 1.1 spec come from. In practice, most USB devices are underterminated, sometimes incorrectly.
The IF recommends sizing the series termination resistors to create a 44 ohm termination. While not enough to perfectly terminate the device when its connected to an ideal cable, it does bring the terminations well within the standard ±15% impedance tolerance-most modern processes are well controlled, so the internal impedance of USB drivers is quite consistent from wafer to wafer. It is, of course, wise to characterize the drivers' impedance range and perform sampling of production parts.

[MCRU]

Yeh, the Belkin cable that you already use. It's unlikely that a cable from a hifi brand will even match the specified USB standard impedance- yet alone actually improve things. If you really want to make a genuine difference buy a usb isolator.

https://www.olimex.com/Products/Modules/Interface/USB-ISO/
http://www.lipoly.de/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=209711

Both of these will do more to resolve any issues you may have relating to poor grounding, or noise on the 5v line then any usb cable possibly could.

and of course you have listened to all the audiophile usb cables out there Simon?

[sq225917]

No of course I haven't listened to them all. But I have listened to enough of them to be pretty sure that the problem is with the implementation of the interface in certain dacs and computers and that the best way to fix that is with active electronics not wishful thinking.

An on-spec cable will pass the signal perfectly. leaving only the issue of RFI from source of signal gnd issues to potentially need resolving.

I've done a few USb dac bake offs now and the results have always been the same. Those dacs with suitable isolation and filtering of the USB input don't seem to be beneficently affected by cable choice.

[Spectral Morn]

While we are talking about USB cables would anyone care to list say a top 5 cables for someone starting of in computer audio?

I have also read that there is a limitation on the data that can be transmitted via a USB i.e 24 bit 192 and higher can't but lower can and that only coax - not available as a digital out on most computers or so it seems - is the only way to transmit higher rates. Is that true?

I know there are USB to phono adaptors but if there is a limitation re the USB surely there is no point in using an adaptor as the USB won't let the higher data out in the first place. However for lower data rates does an adaptor + coax connection mean better sound?

Before you reply to the above assume that I am very ignorant of computer audio matters and thus make an allowance for that in your responses.

[Stratmangler]

I have also read that there is a limitation on the data that can be transmitted via a USB i.e 24 bit 192 and higher can't but lower can and that only coax - not available as a digital out on most computers or so it seems - is the only way to transmit higher rates. Is that true?

Hi Neil

It is most definitely untrue that USB connections cannot transfer 24/192.
If you look at the M2Tech Young DAC it can transfer data far in excess of 24/192, and it is done over a USB connection.

Where the idea of the ceiling rate being lower stems from the implementation of USB protocols that are native to the computer, and without the use of proprietary drivers.

The Young DAC requires proprietary drivers to be installed on Windows machines.
Many USB connectable DACs do not - they're restricted to the transfer rate dictated by the operating system of the computer.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Neil

It is most definitely untrue that USB connections cannot transfer 24/192.
If you look at the M2Tech Young DAC it can transfer data far in excess of 24/192, and it is done over a USB connection.

Where the idea of the ceiling rate being lower stems from the implementation of USB protocols that are native to the computer, and without the use of proprietary drivers.

The Young DAC requires proprietary drivers to be installed on Windows machines.
Many USB connectable DACs do not - they're restricted to the transfer rate dictated by the operating system of the computer.

Thank you Chris for that clarification.

This whole topic is a minefield and I am dipping my toes into it very carefully.

Have you any thoughts re USB cables ?

[bobbasrah]

As Chris has already pointed out, usb CAN handle 24/192 just fine, it is not a inherent limitation of the cable. I play up to 24/192 through a cheap cable, and have tried a variety of different lengths and even some exotic makes in this and other systems with no benefit noted. What I have noticed however is that implementation on computers and DACs is extremely variable, which is sometimes more sensitive to cable quality.

Something to consider though Neil is WHAT you want to deliver it TO and FROM, and then find out what problems you have to address from there.

PS - Meant to say that a computer may have spdif or firewire as well as usb.

[sq225917]

When I had a Young I used to use a Belkin Gold USB cable, (£10). Worked with standard rate as well as 32/384 from 2l.no

[Yomanze]

The most important thing is to get a quality branded cable e.g. Belkin as I have found that some no-name cables can skimp on the power line, which is evidenced by my phone taking incredibly long to charge via the cheapest micro-USB cables & quicker via, say, a Blackberry microUSB cable.

[Stratmangler]

Have you any thoughts re USB cables ?

I have tried cheap no name ones as well as more established brand names (Belkin), and I can't hear any difference between them.

In truth I do not generally use my laptop for playing music (I have a Squeezebox Touch and a turntable as sources), and when I do it is via a HiFace2 and SPDIF connection, as my current DAC does not have a USB connection.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Guys

I have ordered a Belkin gold 3 m - I am thinking of using my everyday laptop and sitting it further away from the DAC as its fan is a bit noisy - but I am finding that the usual sources are coming up short on these in any length. General consensus of opinion seems to be these are the best. Belkin pro is common enough though.

I am being a bit vague about the DAC as its in for review - I have down loaded the asio driver for it - but I am finding a few issues re the choice of laptop I use re playback via J rivers - properly set up - so it looks like my everyday Sony VPCEB4E4E will have to be the pc of choice rather than a Notebook Acer - very silent in operation - no idea of the model though - sorry.

With the Acer I get sound break up and distortion or silence after its been playing for an hour or so. Going into the control panel and resetting the default device sorts it but after awhile it goes up the left again. Using winamp on the Acer works fine but I think that music is better sounding via J River - note I say think as I am not sure yet.

Using the Sony things play fine on J River.

Sorry for the thread drift.

[Stratmangler]

I saw that name J River, and intrigued by all the claims of things sounding better have downloaded it and set it up.

I've also run a quick comparison with Foobar, and my findings are this.
J River is a lot louder than Foobar using default settings.
If I compensate for the volume differences by adjusting the volume control on the amplifier then I can't say that one sounds better than the other.

I'll have to see if I can get replaygain working, and with the same degree of level adjustment on the two media players and try again with the comparison, as currently I'm in the camp of "it's louder, so it comes across as more detailed".

I'm using the HiFace2 in both cases.

Apologies for the thread drift :)

PS - can anyone tell me in words of one syllable how to turn off the fade in/out when switching tracks on J River? Please? It's bloody annoying!

[StanleyB]

MediaMonkey all the way :)! Once you tweak it with a few add on scripts it's the dog's dangles. JRiver can't hold a candle to it.

[Spectral Morn]

I saw that name J River, and intrigued by all the claims of things sounding better have downloaded it and set it up.

I've also run a quick comparison with Foobar, and my findings are this.
J River is a lot louder than Foobar using default settings.
If I compensate for the volume differences by adjusting the volume control on the amplifier then I can't say that one sounds better than the other.

I'll have to see if I can get replaygain working, and with the same degree of level adjustment on the two media players and try again with the comparison, as currently I'm in the camp of "it's louder, so it comes across as more detailed".

I'm using the HiFace2 in both cases.

Apologies for the thread drift :)

PS - can anyone tell me in words of one syllable how to turn off the fade in/out when switching tracks on J River? Please? It's bloody annoying!

Hi Chris

Its in options under audio. You also need to go to DSP and output format and deselect all the extra bits you don't want like subwoofer, concert hall sound depth etc.

I certainly haven't noticed a difference in volume but I deselected all the stupid stuff before I began using it so that might explain why I haven't noticed a level difference. J River does have a lot of flexibility which the standard version of Winamp - the version I am using - does not seem to have. I suspect the Pro version has more flexibility.

[Stratmangler]

Hi Chris

Its in options under audio. You also need to go to DSP and output format and deselect all the extra bits you don't want like subwoofer, concert hall sound depth etc.

I certainly haven't noticed a difference in volume but I deselected all the stupid stuff before I began using it so that might explain why I haven't noticed a level difference. J River does have a lot of flexibility which the standard version of Winamp - the version I am using - does not seem to have. I suspect the Pro version has more flexibility.

Thanks Neil.
Found it.
I've also managed to sort out the volume disparity - the replaygain settings were not working on J River. If you haven't scanned your files for replaygain then the media player cannot act on them.

[Spectral Morn]

Thanks Neil.
Found it.

No worries Chris, I am quite shocked I was able to help you.

[Spectral Morn]

MediaMonkey all the way :)! Once you tweak it with a few add on scripts it's the dog's dangles. JRiver can't hold a candle to it.

Hi Stan the reason I am using J River is the DAC manufacturer rates it as being very compatible with their DAC.

[Tim]

MediaMonkey all the way :)! Once you tweak it with a few add on scripts it's the dog's dangles. JRiver can't hold a candle to it.
Hmm, I didn't like MediaMonkey at all Stan - but just like anything, you can't really argue with personal choice. I've tried them all and I didn't want to like it, as I didn't want to spend $50.00, but I couldn't find anything for my use that bettered JRiver. I think it may also depend on your DAC, the HRT really didn't like foobar2000, all sorts of conflicts which HRT helped me through, but its fine with JRiver as is the Rega.

I guess try them all and pick the one that works/sounds best for you ;)

Sorry about the slight thread drift . . . .

[Stratmangler]

No worries Chris, I am quite shocked I was able to help you.

Sometimes it's the angle taken to look at a specific problem that needs changing.
I'd been through the areas you mentioned, but looked at things slightly differently second time around.
The pointer you gave was enough to cause me to go look again with a fresh perspective.

Thanks :cool:

[realysm42]

J River all the way, baby, loads of options, works great and is easy to use.

[Stratmangler]

J River all the way, baby, loads of options, works great and is easy to use.

You could quite easily say the same about Foobar.
Or Winamp.
Or........ you know where I'm going with this one :eyebrows:

You pays your money (or not - I know whose pocket isn't going to be lined with my hard earned :eyebrows:) and makes your choice.

[Tim]

Indeed Chris, not everyone likes Marmite either, but I love it ;)

[realysm42]

You could quite easily say the same about Foobar.
Or Winamp.
Or........ you know where I'm going with this one :eyebrows:

You pays your money (or not - I know whose pocket isn't going to be lined with my hard earned :eyebrows:) and makes your choice.

In your experience perhaps, not so for me.

Foobar had so many little issues with it that just ruined the experience.

J River just worked out of the box; bit perfect playback was so easy to setup by myself. I mention this because Foobar was a real PITA in this regard.

[StanleyB]

It does help to know a program inside out. I don't know about all the features and options in MediaMonkey. But after I discovered where the memory buffer is hiding and how to use it I can now get results from 24/192 files that seemed impossible before.

[Spectral Morn]

It does help to know a program inside out. I don't know about all the features and options in MediaMonkey. But after I discovered where the memory buffer is hiding and how to use it I can now get results from 24/192 files that seemed impossible before.

Would you care to explain Stan, the info might be useful to others.

[StanleyB]

Maybe I can start a thread on Media players tricks and tips? Then we can have a comprehensive set of contributions from members that would be a useful reference point that everyone can then use to set up their own media player and learn new tricks etc.

[John]

That be great Stan I think a lot us would benefit from that

[wee tee cee]

Still the Furutech F2 for me mate.Brian,
for the life of me I couldn't remember what cable you had, it was a marked improvement on the belkin when we compared them.....seems to review well. The supra caught my eye as I run it for power cables and my co ax.

might just get the supra and bring it along the next time we all get together for a wee session.
tony.

[technobear]

I've been (and still am) very satisfied with the sonic improvements wrought by using Kimber USB, so much so that I own three of them: 0.5m, 1.5m amd 5.0m

These can be had from Russ Andrews and whilst dearer than Belkin, are not outrageous in comparison to some of the other audiofool USB cables out there.

[MCRU]

I've been (and still am) very satisfied with the sonic improvements wrought by using Kimber USB, so much so that I own three of them: 0.5m, 1.5m amd 5.0m

These can be had from Russ Andrews and whilst dearer than Belkin, are not outrageous in comparison to some of the other audiofool USB cables out there.

What is that phrase, fools and their money are easily parted, there must be a lot of fools in the world then as I sell plenty of audiofool usb cables.:)

[sq225917]

You should know.

[wee tee cee]

What is that phrase, fools and their money are easily parted, there must be a lot of fools in the world then as I sell plenty of audiofool usb cables.:)Dave,
I need a 5m a-b usb. Budget of about £100....what would you and your customers recommend?
Having heard different cables I know differences are audible.

[wee tee cee]

Bought the Supra usb a couple of days ago, put maybe 5 hrs on it so far.Sounds noticeably different to the two belkins I have. Early days but the most noticeable change is clearer separation with instruments and vocals are far more focussed sound stage wise.Guitars sound a bit more guitarie, if that makes sense. Will give it a good 100 hrs and see what happens.

[brian2957]

Interesting mate . Can you please give us an idea of price and where it can be purchased. Ta :)

[MCRU]

Interesting mate . Can you please give us an idea of price and where it can be purchased. Ta :)

Just ordered a few Supra USB cables to trial against what I already stock, Furutech, Tellurium Q and Oyaide.

It's rumoured to be very good for the money. What Hi-Fi awarded it 5 stars recently, good value at £27 for 0.7 metres.

Here is the review (http://www.jenving.se/pictures/whf-nov2012-usb_1200.jpg) if of interest.

[brian2957]

Thanks David , already use a Furutech F2 and compared it to the excellent ( but too expensive for me ) TQ cable. I'll be watching this thread with interest.

[awkwardbydesign]

Curious that What Hi-Fi say the Supra is "tiring after a while", yet give it 5 stars!

[MCRU]

The Tellurium Q graphite will be with me soon, £450 worth, not cheap but all who have heard it say it's remarkable. Will be nice to do an A-B with one that sells for £27

[MCRU]

Curious that What Hi-Fi say the Supra is "tiring after a while", yet give it 5 stars!

That is the same magazine that reviewed a cable that was dis-continued 2 years ago! At under 30 nikker it's worth trying it for oneself I reckon. Of course there are plenty of other usb cables to choose from.

[brian2957]

Well the TQ cable I heard was very good indeed but, at £300 , out of my league mate . If the new one is better then it will be worth a listen.

[jkeny]

A while back I decided to investigate the USB cable issue & whether it made a difference to the sound. I was fairly convinced that it wouldn't as I was using an asynchronous USB device which was self-powered so should be no influence from PC's clock or 5V supply. I had tried some different USB cables before & heard no differences but others had told me that USB cables did make a difference.

Instead of buying various USB cables & the pot luck that entailed, i decided to go back to basics & eliminate the USb cable first & see if this made any difference to the sound. It did! I used USB B to USB A adapter. I posted my results & others have also tried it with similar findings.

I have come to the conclusion that the USB signal waveform is indeed disturbed by the different cables. I don't think the impedance is of great importance as I have also tried some short DIY USB cables which pay no attention to impedance sam with shielding! I'm not sure what are the factors of importance!

Most self-powered USB devices are too big to try this with but I have some DACs on tour that suit this approach.

[wee tee cee]

Well the TQ cable I heard was very good indeed but, at £300 , out of my league mate . If the new one is better then it will be worth a listen.Aye,
The TQ USB was a significant upgrade on all the others we listened to but as you say ....a bit salty money wise.(If I had the money I would invest in one). The 5m supra I bought set me back £53. Wont jump to conclusions just yet, to be fare. Next time the troops get together a wee USB showdown could well be on the cards!!!!

[brian2957]

Yup , hope I can make that one mate :)

[MCRU]

Aye,
The TQ USB was a significant upgrade on all the others we listened to but as you say ....a bit salty money wise.(If I had the money I would invest in one). The 5m supra I bought set me back £53. Wont jump to conclusions just yet, to be fare. Next time the troops get together a wee USB showdown could well be on the cards!!!!

you can have to try:-

supra usb cable £30 ish
furutech formula 2 £60 ish
furutech GT2 £100 ish
oyaide continental 5s £300 ish
tellurium q graphite £450

that do yer?

[brian2957]

:doh:This could prove expensive . How does the GT2 compare with the Formula 2 David.

[wee tee cee]

dave,
an intriguing offer....might have to organise something purely in the interest of science and the pursuit of truth like!!!!!!
(but its only ones and zeros.....do they print better quality pictures?)

[Reid Malenfant]

Funnily enough I recently decided to make some of my own USB cables. I looked for ages to find some half reasonable gold plated USB A & B type plugs, couldn't find any anywhere :rolleyes:

In the end I simply searched for a ready made cable on ebay with the intension of stripping them down & re-using the plugs. I found a listing selling some Jessops USB cables with gold plated connectors (& connections) for £1.29 each, buy two get a third free :D

So I did...

It turns out that the screen in the cable is connected to nothing :scratch: Very odd I thought. No point in screening something if you don't have something to complete the circuit & dump any noise into :mental:

Hopefully as soon as the cable I ordered gets here, I'll have something together pretty shortly afterwards.

That reminds me, time to buy some glue lined heatshrik :eyebrows:

[brian2957]

I tried to strip the plugs off some USB cables Mark ended up wrecking them. These any good.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221131973465?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/320904157611?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[Reid Malenfant]

Yeah, I did need to be careful, but years in the electronics industry pays off :eyebrows:

The plastic was cast around the plug after it had been wired, by carefully cutting it away I ended up with wires just over 1CM long to connect to.

There is no way I could have gotten right into the plug at the contact level, it was full of cast plastic :rolleyes:

Just need to do the same to another five plugs now...

[brian2957]

Yup , that's what happened to me . I tried to dismantle the plugs and wrecked them . I'm a bit heavy handed I'm afraid . The unassembles plugs were previously impossible to buy , but I think you can get them now.

[Reid Malenfant]

Yep, easy to get standard USB plugs, both A & B type, just try finding them with gold plated connections....

Horse feathers are more common :D

[brian2957]

Good luck mate . Could you let us know what cable you are using and how you get on . Interesting one this :)

[Reid Malenfant]

Sure, this stuff from Maplin (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/320904396989?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649) :) The thing is though, all my audio kit that uses USB is externally powered, so I only need the three connections ;) I even modified my Musical Fidelity V-Link so it is powered externally.

Screen will be used for zero volts or ground, the two signal cables will carry the USB signal.

This stuff is no good if whatever device you are going to feed needs to draw power from the 5V USB bus, as you'd need another wire.

[brian2957]

I use a V-Link mate . Does your mod improve SQ ( silly question but I've got to ask :eyebrows:)

[Reid Malenfant]

Oh yes, external regulated PSU rather than the switcher it's being fed from the PC...

Yes..

If you want to see what I did, look here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18118) :cool:

[brian2957]

Looks too complicated for me mate . Mines is a V-Link 2 anyhow . MF have brought out a new V-Link 192 , so maybe go down that road when funds are available :) I'll hear it at Gazjam's sometime this week. Thanks for the link.

[Reid Malenfant]

192 has been out for an age, you need to look outside of the UK :lol:

Actually the power mod is just a socket, a few wires & a couple of diodes & one track cut.

I just did a few other bits to improve things while I was at it ;)

[brian2957]

Sometimes I don't look outside the front door mate , never mind outside the UK :eyebrows: . I'm too busy enjoyin the music Mark :)

[Reid Malenfant]

:lol: Sounds like a plan, actually I don't venture very far myself...



Anyway, back to the cables. I'll get something up in the DIY section when I have built & tested them... Howzat :)

[brian2957]

Thanks. A USB cable build is probably within my dubious technical skills.

[technobear]

The thing is though, all my audio kit that uses USB is externally powered, so I only need the three connections...

...or so you might think. Not necessarily true I'm afraid. Some USB receivers use the presence of 5V to tell that a connection exists and that the host is active even though they don't draw power from it.

[Reid Malenfant]

Ah... Well I know that's not a problem with my MF V-Link, it'll power up from just the external 5.5V supply.

Possibly a very good point though, thank you Chris, I'll see how it goes & if it all works :lol:

Cheers for the heads up, may well save some head scratching if it comes to it!

[wee tee cee]

Got a few hours on the supra now, initial impressions were tat it was a bit veiled and bloated. It has settled down noticeably and is starting to represent a simple upgrade for the computer based audio troops at reasonable money. Wouldn't fancy comparing it with the TQ cable I've heard but for the money a good upgrade over the belkins I had and was pretty happy with....

[Andrei]

While we are talking about USB cables would anyone care to list say a top 5 cables for someone starting of in computer audio?


I will make just two general points. The first is this: The single most important feature in a cable (not counting shorting bare wire) is the quality of the cable. Good quality copper or silver will always give a better result. The second: By and large I have found Japanese cables - eg Oyaide or Acrolink - to offer much better value for money. Also they have much less BS.