View Full Version : Full Range help please
I'm thinking of building my first diy speaker project. I thought I had got it figured out.. then I started reading some threads.. now I'm a bit confused :rolleyes:.
Any help would be appreciated please. At the moment I don't have any hi-fi, so am beginning from scratch.. with almost no money! I do have a large NAS drive though full of music so it wil be based around that.
Anyway the speakers I would like your opinion/thoughts are the Frugal Horn 3 with either a Fostex FE126en or the Mark Audio Alpair 7.3 (grey). Or would I be better with the 7.3 Pensil either with or without the internal bracing. I do have an old Vibe sub that someone gave me. Would that come in handy?
For the amp I have a Pioneer A300r precision which I have loaned to a friend. Should I ask for it back and use that or just get a cheapo tripath thingy to see how it goes?
Thanks in advance for your help. By the way where's the best place to order the dive units from?
Cheers
Stratmangler
29-09-2012, 21:11
FH3 using CHP-70 plus the Frugal Tweeter.
I've been using these for a while, and I'm in no rush to replace them, despite having heard some excellent designs around at the house of Topps (Toppsy).
Fostex are horrible things with a nasty peak in response around 7KHz and no bottom end.
The spun aluminium MA drivers have decent wide band response, but leave me cold.
Ali Tait
29-09-2012, 22:01
You could try an Open Baffle?
oscarsaudio
29-09-2012, 22:01
Not in my system at the moment but I've got some frugal horns I made using the paper cone chp-70 driver never got round to adding a tweeter , they sound extremely good and I'm sure you'll be very impressed.
If you need any advice on the build just give me a shout
oscarsaudio
29-09-2012, 22:03
I think i may even have a new pair of the chp-70 drivers if your interested.
You could try an Open Baffle?
I had thought of OB's. Do the 'cabinets' need to be big or complex? Remember I would like it as simple as possible and I do have the active sub, as I know OB's do lack in bass somewhat...
Open baffle are pretty easy to build but tend to be reasonable big in size
Bass also depends on the driver and baffle
Ali Tait
30-09-2012, 08:17
I had thought of OB's. Do the 'cabinets' need to be big or complex? Remember I would like it as simple as possible and I do have the active sub, as I know OB's do lack in bass somewhat...
OB's do not lack in bass at all, in fact Sovereign is having trouble with too much with his new set. I don't know where this myth came from. Seems all it takes is one person to pronounce something on the net for it to become a fact in people's minds.
OB is probably the easiest to build, as there is only a baffle, no cabinet. Downside is size. The baffle needs to be the correct size for flat bass response, so they don't have the highest WAF.
Paul Hynes
30-09-2012, 11:48
The Visaton B200 on a 2’ x 4’ open baffle gives a very musically satisfying presentation for a reasonable outlay. This is how I tested drive units for use in my open baffle line source array design and I was impressed by the musical coherence of the B200. The bass may not be a full as some would wish but it was clearly defined, extended to surprisingly low frequencies and displayed very good timing. Once you hear open baffle bass, going back to typical cabinet honk is difficult. The B200 was good enough for me to invest in 16 units for my line arrays.
OB's do not lack in bass at all, in fact Sovereign is having trouble with too much with his new set. I don't know where this myth came from. Seems all it takes is one person to pronounce something on the net for it to become a fact in people's minds.
OB is probably the easiest to build, as there is only a baffle, no cabinet. Downside is size. The baffle needs to be the correct size for flat bass response, so they don't have the highest WAF.
Thanks for the replies. The problem with the OB's it seems for me is the size. I have to make a decision, so I think I'm going to go with the Frugal 3. I'm sure if I get the 'bug' I'll move on to other things.
Now that's sorted, any thoughts and tips on these speakers please? Which driver would you recommend? The CHP-70 (gen 1) has been mentioned and I can get them at a good price. Would it be worth getting anything different or better?
Also the only thing I'm a bit concerned about is cutting the panel accurately enough. Is there anyone who offers a flat pack type thing? I want to put them together, but it would be nice if they were cut for me... :rolleyes:
Ali Tait
30-09-2012, 13:32
The Frugal is a very good speaker. Colin Topps will do you a flat pack, PM your email and I'll put you in touch. He'll advise you on drivers as he's tried several in this design
Ali Tait
30-09-2012, 13:33
The Visaton B200 on a 2’ x 4’ open baffle gives a very musically satisfying presentation for a reasonable outlay. This is how I tested drive units for use in my open baffle line source array design and I was impressed by the musical coherence of the B200. The bass may not be a full as some would wish but it was clearly defined, extended to surprisingly low frequencies and displayed very good timing. Once you hear open baffle bass, going back to typical cabinet honk is difficult. The B200 was good enough for me to invest in 16 units for my line arrays.
Yes agreed, the B200 is a very good driver for the money. I use them from 200Hz up in my OB's.
The Frugal is a very good speaker. Colin Topps will do you a flat pack, PM your email and I'll put you in touch. He'll advise you on drivers as he's tried several in this design
Thanks for that. I've e-mailed Colin, he's not doing the flat packs now, but he has advised me on the drivers as you say. For reasons of cost I'm going with the CHP-70 gen 1 which can be had for 55 euros. I'll build the cabs out of 18mm MDF. Not as good as Birch Ply, but quite a bit cheaper!
One final thought, does anyone have any thoughts on a tripath amp, something that will drive these and sound ok? There seems to be loads on ebay, or should I use my old Pioneer A300r precision for now?
Many thanks again for all who posted so far.
I try both the Mini T should sound very good with the driver but no direct experience. Also worth chatting to Electric Beach (Steve)
Stratmangler
30-09-2012, 17:06
One final thought, does anyone have any thoughts on a tripath amp, something that will drive these and sound ok? There seems to be loads on ebay, or should I use my old Pioneer A300r precision for now?
Many thanks again for all who posted so far.
Pioneer.
A little T-Amp probably won't have the grunt or control - the CHP-70 Gen1s are a nominal 4ohm load, so require current the T-Amp is unlikely to give you.
Pioneer.
A little T-Amp probably won't have the grunt or control - the CHP-70 Gen1s are a nominal 4ohm load, so require current the T-Amp is unlikely to give you.
Well that will save some money! :D I just need a usb dac of some kind, preferably cheaper the better...
Ali Tait
30-09-2012, 19:02
Well I use Temple Audio Bantam Golds, which I preferred to the mini T. They have no problem driving two Eminence Alpha 15 inchers wired in parallel (4 ohm load) per channel on my OB's. They are the best of the several chip amps I've heard.
Stratmangler
30-09-2012, 19:29
Well I use Temple Audio Bantam Golds, which I preferred to the mini T. They have no problem driving two Eminence Alpha 15 inchers wired in parallel (4 ohm load) per channel on my OB's. They are the best of the several chip amps I've heard.
The Eminence drivers are at least 10 dB/w/m more sensitive than the CHP-70.
Ali Tait
30-09-2012, 19:43
The Golds will do 25w, and the monos 40w. More than enough I'd have thought. Stable down to 2 ohms too, touted as ideal for statics, so should drive Frugals with ease.
Stratmangler
30-09-2012, 20:11
The Golds will do 25w, and the monos 40w. More than enough I'd have thought. Stable down to 2 ohms too, touted as ideal for statics, so should drive Frugals with ease.
I've got a T-Amp here - I'll give it a whirl on my FH3s and see how it copes.
I might be pleasantly surprised.
There again I might not :eyebrows:
Reading the excellent thread of Keith's Frugal build. The Frugal tweeters are mentioned. Where could I buy them from and what model are they? Also how complicated is the xover?
Many thanks for all the input thus far.
Sorry, one other thing. What type of damping material do I need and where's the best place to buy it from? Sorry about all these questions, but I'm at a bit of a loss. The instuctions say BAF and 12mm wool felt, but where would you recommend from?
Thanks again.
Stratmangler
01-10-2012, 09:58
The tweeters can be bough from here http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=ERT26
The filter is a simple high pass filter, using 2 resistors and 1 capacitor.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/192083-frugal-super-tweeter.html
Ali Tait
01-10-2012, 18:32
How'd you get on with the amp Chris?
Thanks for that, I'll check it out.
I've been and bought the wood today.. well MDF! The good guys at Lawrence Brothers in Maltby nr. Rotherham did all the basic cuts and only charged me £2.00 extra. I've just got to do all the fiddly curves etc. :scratch:
I have to say having been without a decent (make that any) stereo for over 18 months, I'm quite excited. Although that has been dampened somewhat by a near £700 bill for my van today :eek: That's after a new battery last week too and a new cambelt.... Ah well that's life I suppose.
If I feel that it's going well I may even post some pics, but I'm not going to promise. One things for sure, it won't be a patch on some of the fantastic efforts on here, how on earth do you guys learn woodwork skills like that? Have a drink on me ..... :cool:
oscarsaudio
01-10-2012, 19:11
If your after some budget dampening material buy a basic fibre pillow from a supermarket and use the filling from that.
for the wool/felt matting use carpet underlay if you haven't got any let meknow I'm sure I've got some I can send you .
Were abouts are you ?
Stratmangler
01-10-2012, 19:28
How'd you get on with the amp Chris?
Not tried it yet - I'm lying low with the lurgy.
When I stand up the floor feels like it's the deck of a ferry at sea - permanently moving.
If your after some budget dampening material buy a basic fibre pillow from a supermarket and use the filling from that.
for the wool/felt matting use carpet underlay if you haven't got any let meknow I'm sure I've got some I can send you .
Were abouts are you ?
Can't believe that.... I had the same thoughts myself this afternoon! I'll nip to a local carpet place in the next couple of days. If I can't find anything suitable I'll drop you a PM. Many thanks for your kind offer. I'm in Rotherham, South Yorks. BTW.
Cheers
Stratmangler
01-10-2012, 21:04
How'd you get on with the amp Chris?
And I've now wobbled around upstairs and fetched the Amptastic T-Amp down and hooked everything up.
And I'm rather impressed with the sound quality.
OK, it doesn't do serious loud, but at sensible listening levels it sounds very good indeed.
Sorry I'm late to this thread...
I love my FH3s and highly recommend them. I've bought the bits to make the super tweeters, but haven't yet got round to building those yet.
I'd certainly go for the Mark Audio CHP-70 mk 1 drivers - don't let the very low cost put you off as they are very capable indeed.
I'm glad you are going to build these yourself from scratch. My woodworking skills are non-existant (as demonstrated in my build thread), but take your time and you will manage fine. My ethos when doing stuff like this is:
Accept your limitations and don't worry about perfectionism - if you make a mistake then fix it as well as you can and learn from that mistake.
Take your time and enjoy it and try not to fall into the temptation of rushing towards the end - the final sanding and finishing takes a lot longer than you probably think and plays a huge part in the final appearance.
Specific advice and suggestions:
Biscuit joints are well worth the effort as they make assembly so much easier - both the final gluing-up and dry test fittings. Cut the slots a little long to allow plenty of 'wiggle room'
Take care working with MDF - the dust is nasty, carcinogenic stuff. Work outdoors if routering, drilling or sanding and use a dust mask.
Allow plenty of time to 'break in' the drivers - they need at least 100 hours playing very low volume, bass-free music followed by another 100 hours slightly louder (but not normal listening level). I wired them up in the box they are packed in to an amp and cd player and left on repeat for a week playing 24 hours a day whilst I was building the enclosures. For the slightly louder level breaking in, I played them in 2 or 3 hour sessions with an hour or more break in between sessions.
Have fun and post a build thread with lots of photos.
Sorry I'm late to this thread...
I love my FH3s and highly recommend them. I've bought the bits to make the super tweeters, but haven't yet got round to building those yet.
I'd certainly go for the Mark Audio CHP-70 mk 1 drivers - don't let the very low cost put you off as they are very capable indeed.
I'm glad you are going to build these yourself from scratch. My woodworking skills are non-existant (as demonstrated in my build thread), but take your time and you will manage fine. My ethos when doing stuff like this is:
Accept your limitations and don't worry about perfectionism - if you make a mistake then fix it as well as you can and learn from that mistake.
Take your time and enjoy it and try not to fall into the temptation of rushing towards the end - the final sanding and finishing takes a lot longer than you probably think and plays a huge part in the final appearance.
Specific advice and suggestions:
Biscuit joints are well worth the effort as they make assembly so much easier - both the final gluing-up and dry test fittings. Cut the slots a little long to allow plenty of 'wiggle room'
Take care working with MDF - the dust is nasty, carcinogenic stuff. Work outdoors if routering, drilling or sanding and use a dust mask.
Allow plenty of time to 'break in' the drivers - they need at least 100 hours playing very low volume, bass-free music followed by another 100 hours slightly louder (but not normal listening level). I wired them up in the box they are packed in to an amp and cd player and left on repeat for a week playing 24 hours a day whilst I was building the enclosures. For the slightly louder level breaking in, I played them in 2 or 3 hour sessions with an hour or more break in between sessions.
Have fun and post a build thread with lots of photos.
Thanks for that post and encouragement. I've looked at your thread and I wouldn't say your skills were nonexistent, I think you did a fantastic job. I only hope mine can look half as good as yours!
I appreciate the tips, especially about rushing the job. That's one of my weaknesses.
I would also like to say to everyone a big thank you for the comments so far. In all the years I've posted on hi-fi threads, I've never experienced this sense of community. DIY builders are obviously a much more amenable bunch! :grouphug:
I'll do my best with the photo's.. unless I make a complete pigs ear! :lol:
Ok, so the drivers arrived today! I've got them playing in there packaging to start the run in process. Hopefully the build will begin tomorrow.... I'm really looking forward to it. I'll start taking pics too and see how they go.
Thanks again for all the help thus far.
oscarsaudio
05-10-2012, 20:26
good luck & remember measure twice cut once
So we started today at about 2:00pm. I don't think we've done too badly considering we are complete novice's! We hit a couple of problems with my mate's router. Half way down a cut it would jump from it's position, which has resulted in a couple of slight misshaps to the edge... but nothing too serious. Nothing a bit of wood filler can't sort out :lol:
So I charged the camera.... then proceeded to forget it, so these pics are from my phone, hope they're ok.
The first one is my headless mate just getting a feel for it, then in the next 2 you can see our very Heath Robinson attempt to make the 69" radius curve at the back.. which as you can see we did... perfectly, even if I say so myself! After we marked the line, we cut close to it with a jigsaw, then attached the router to the same piece of mdf and cut it with the template tool.
The last one is a nicely cut piece. We've more or less done all four side panels, back to it tomorrow afternoon.
Hopefully the hardest bit is done (probably a bit optomistic :eek:). Nevertheless we are enjoying it and if this is a success, my mate Carlton, fancies making a pair of speakers with some Jordan drivers, maybe in an array!
More to follow.....
Good work chaps :clap:
Certainly you have done one of the trickier operations.
Regarding the jumping router, make sure you cut in a anti-clockwise direction when cutting around the outside - eg. Left to right with the router between you and the wood - don't know if that's the problem?
Keep up the good work :)
Cheers,
Keith
oscarsaudio
06-10-2012, 20:10
looking good
Good work chaps :clap:
Certainly you have done one of the trickier operations.
Regarding the jumping router, make sure you cut in a anti-clockwise direction when cutting around the outside - eg. Left to right with the router between you and the wood - don't know if that's the problem?
Keep up the good work :)
Cheers,
Keith
I think it's his router to be honest. The lever to hold it in the down position isn't very good, it's just pops up! We sussed it now though and hold it with one finger as we cut..
So we've done a little bit more, my headless assistant and I.
These are the finished sides
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121007_142252.jpg
And then a couple of mock up photo's
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121007_150027.jpg
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121007_155515.jpg
Then on to glue the internal and back panels.. I can't believe how difficult it was to keep them perpendicular. As soon as I applied any pressure they would kink out. Managed it though in the end... hopefully.
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121007_175241.jpg
And finally the headless one, grinning like a cheshire cat next to his Makita table saw, or whatever it is
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121007_162427.jpg
So more tomorrow all being well...
I have to say, those pics aren't bad for a mobile phone, I'm quite impressed by that! We're both enjoying this build too, can't wait to get stuck back in...
You certainly are getting stuck in - I think it took me about 3 weeks to get to where you are :lol:
Looking forward to the next instalment...
Crash Tested
08-10-2012, 20:38
Come on Glenann... Thought they'd be finished by now... :)
If you'd have brought your glasses we might have done...:doh:
aquapiranha
08-10-2012, 20:49
Arrrggghhh!!! you bloody bunch of bast*rds! I thought I could get away with having a lovely piece of 18MM BB Ply sitting quietly in a fully equipped workshop waiting oh so patiently for me to get off my fat arse and get some cutting and gluing up done and then this!!! You do realise I will have to pull my finger out now don't you? Gits....
Seriously though, I am so looking forward to getting them sorted, I have the nice little EL70 drivers ready to go, and the felt/ stuffing courtesy of Steve so no real excuses...
So we did a little bit more tonight. We've cut all the pieces for the second cabinet now. Also managed to glue the back and inserts for the second speaker. The first one went well thankfully, and the panels are perpendicular!
Also, with all credit to Keith, I built a jig for the 124 mm rebate for the drive unit, which seemed to work really well..
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121008_202723.jpg
You can tell 'faceless' man likes it just with the smug expression....
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121008_202750.jpg
Be a couple of days before we get any more done... Gives us all time to catch our breath.
I managed to find a carpet shop in Rotherham that sells wool felt underlay, so picking that up hopefully tomorrow. With that and my Asda special £3.00 pillows for the stuffing, all is well methinks.
Just a quick question for aquapiranha, if I can, that's if he'll speak to me.. :) I noticed in your signature that you use a WD streamer. Whats that like for music? I used to have a Linn Akurate DS, which I had to sell and so bought a Squeezbox Touch... which I had to sell! Now with little funds, would the WD be a viable alternative? Also can you use an Android interface to choose songs etc..
Cheers mate... and get on with your build! :lol:
aquapiranha
08-10-2012, 21:28
Of course I will speak to you lol.. I have been using the WD for a couple of years with FLAC files into a Beresford DAC and I think it sounds great. Of course I do not really have anything to compare it with but I certainly have no complaints. Another alternative I have been looking recently is a basic mini PC with linux / XMBC that can be controlled via my S3.
Steve
Of course I will speak to you lol.. I have been using the WD for a couple of years with FLAC files into a Beresford DAC and I think it sounds great. Of course I do not really have anything to compare it with but I certainly have no complaints. Another alternative I have been looking recently is a basic mini PC with linux / XMBC that can be controlled via my S3.
Steve
Thanks for that. I never thought of the WD, I was trying to find money for another SB Touch, but these can be had for much less. Also I can probably get a much better DAC at some point too... top man!
So we did a little bit more tonight. We've cut all the pieces for the second cabinet now. Also managed to glue the back and inserts for the second speaker. The first one went well thankfully, and the panels are perpendicular!
Also, with all credit to Keith, I built a jig for the 124 mm rebate for the drive unit, which seemed to work really well..
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121008_202723.jpg
You can tell 'faceless' man likes it just with the smug expression....
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121008_202750.jpg
Be a couple of days before we get any more done... Gives us all time to catch our breath.
I managed to find a carpet shop in Rotherham that sells wool felt underlay, so picking that up hopefully tomorrow. With that and my Asda special £3.00 pillows for the stuffing, all is well methinks.
Headless speaker construction. I take my hat off to you....err how do you wear yours:lol::D
Headless speaker construction. I take my hat off to you....err how do you wear yours:lol::D
With great difficulty.... :lol:
So here we are again.. done a little bit more this afternoon. The Keith inspired jig worked a treat, we now have 2 very smart and acurate rebated holes for the CHP-70's.
Sick of the Headless 'Crash Tested' assisitant I've finally put up a picture of my good self, but apologies for the hat, I don't know what I was thinking! By the way we're building these at my parents house, so thanks dad for the use of the garage... just noticed my mums wheelchair in the background, and she's been telling us for years she can't walk! Reminds me of Little Britain, she'll be skydiving or something...
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121010_150803.jpg
Having cut the holes, we tried the drivers ..... and .....
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121010_151400.jpg
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121010_151427.jpg
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121010_151528.jpg
Than as we are short on clamps we could only glue one of the cabinets at a time, voila...
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121010_160610.jpg
I'm still really enjoying this, and I can tell all ready that this will not be the last thing that I build! The drive units are still running in nicely, just changed from gentle Joni Mitchell to Morcheeba, still at lowish volumes but we're on the second hundred hours now.
realysm42
10-10-2012, 19:14
As a rule of thumb, when clamping, is it better to use as many as possible, to ensure the glues stuck evenly?
As a rule of thumb, when clamping, is it better to use as many as possible, to ensure the glues stuck evenly?
I realize that. I hope it's going to work out ok, as that's all we've got :doh:. Should have bought a couple more.... I see another trip to Screwfix coming on!
Reid Malenfant
10-10-2012, 19:30
You should be ok, just make sure the plywood is true & flat & use more than enough PVA glue so when you do clamp it down, it is squeezed out of the edges somewhat.
Simply use a damp cloth to wipe off the excess ;)
Good luck & have fun with your project :)
You should be ok, just make sure the plywood is true & flat & use more than enough PVA glue so when you do clamp it down, it is squeezed out of the edges somewhat.
Simply use a damp cloth to wipe off the excess ;)
Good luck & have fun with your project :)
That's good, we did have 'squeezeure' of glue!
Crash Tested
10-10-2012, 20:50
He did use as many clamp as possible..... Tight Dog... :steam:
realysm42
10-10-2012, 21:38
I was asking a question, not giving advice (hence the ?).
I'm asking because in time I'd like to build some speakers.
I was asking a question, not giving advice (hence the ?).
I'm asking because in time I'd like to build some speakers.
Sorry missread that. Someone with much more experience than me might like to answer that. I've only been building speakers since last Saturday! :lol:
What speakers are you thinking of having a go at?
bobbasrah
11-10-2012, 07:44
Unlike plywood, MDF is pretty stiff and straight stuff for the same thickness hence clamps fairly evenly, but a batten between clamp and surface will both ensure no surface damage at the clamp jaws and apply pressure more evenly IME. This is particularly so when clamping a back to a side where the edge is more easily damaged.
If short of a clamp for the middle, a warped/curved batten with curved centre down works well.
As Mark said, once the glue excess is wiped off with a wet cloth while it is still fresh, it hardly has any chance to go 'off' into the surface.
So, when are you having a bash Martin ?
Hi Glen,
That looks like a proper set of speakers, well done :)
Apart from labour time, what are your rough costs so far?
cheers,
Martin
p.s. i assume that your name is Glen - it's not clear from your sig :scratch:
Hi Glen,
That looks like a proper set of speakers, well done :)
Apart from labour time, what are your rough costs so far?
cheers,
Martin
p.s. i assume that your name is Glen - it's not clear from your sig :scratch:
Thanks for the compliment. I'll add up the costs and give a break down as soon as I get a minute.
Sorry about my misleading Sig. but my name isn't Glen, it's a long story, well not too long, but.... anyway, if you look at the top right and to quote the 1973 film with Terrance Hill.... my name is Nobody! :eyebrows:
Sorry about my misleading Sig. but my name isn't Glen, it's a long story, well not too long, but.... anyway, if you look at the top right and to quote the 1973 film with Terrance Hill.... my name is Nobody! :eyebrows:
:lol: I'm glad we got that cleared up, Nobody :mental: :)
Cheers,
Crash Tested
11-10-2012, 16:52
Sorry for the confusion Martin... It's me who is helping Glenann out with the build. I agree fully with your suggestion that more clamps should be used...:doh:
realysm42
11-10-2012, 17:57
Cheers chaps; I've been watching your build with interest.
I'm really not sure what to build yet; I guess I should start simple, but there's a part of me that wants to create a monster!
IPL are favourites right now... Maybe a bookshelf of theirs to begin with.
I managed to glue the second cabinet this afternoon, so hopefully tomorrow I can start putting the wool felt and stuffing in. I got the wool felt underlay from a nice guy at the only carpet shop that has that sort of thing in Rotherham, he gave me enough to do about 30 pairs! :lol:
As can be seen from the photo, I enlisted the help of JF too, mainly for his deft touch with the rubber mallet!! :eek: Also as can be seen he's much better looking than either Crash Tested or myself... Looks a bit like a slightly overweight Gary Barlow, don't ya think? Sorry my wife thinks he's more like Daniel Bedingfield... go figure!
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/S2Pics119.jpg
Reid Malenfant
11-10-2012, 21:00
You don't live in France :scratch:
So why is everyone strangely decapitated :lol:
Again, keep up the good work ;)
You don't live in France :scratch:
So why is everyone strangely decapitated :lol:
Again, keep up the good work ;)
We thought it might be mildly amusing, but now I'm not so sure... You can't beat a bit of infantile behaviour though surely? :) Plus the fact we want to protect the innocent through anonymity...!
Reid Malenfant
11-10-2012, 21:08
:lol:
Nothing like protecting the innocent :D
So now I've got one all glued up today. First I lined it with the wool felt..
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121012_152108.jpg
Then I stuffed it..
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121013_145817.jpg
Then glued it...
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121013_154012.jpg
What a nice place to put a CHP-70!
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121013_153944.jpg
Just the other one in the wings for tomorrow, then it's on with the sanding and fitting the drive unit..... then......?
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121013_154105.jpg
Hope they sound ok :eek:. Just got a Squeezebox Touch yesterday, so I'm all ready... come on!
I asked polietly by private messenger for you to share your first name can you please comply with this request
Thanks
aquapiranha
13-10-2012, 17:13
In the workshop now and about to fire up 'The Leviathan'. That is an 8 foot panel on there..
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/14/uge6y6e5.jpg
Crash Tested
13-10-2012, 19:16
Looks like you mean business... Are you starting a new thread for this build?:)
aquapiranha
13-10-2012, 19:24
Well I did think about it but to be honest there are so many threads about the FH3 now that it might be overkill. Rest assured though that when I have them going I will posting up my thoughts. For now though the panels are cut except for the slight angles and the curve on the sides. I bought a 102mm hole saw today for the drivers as I did not have one and that is quick and easy.... :)
This might be my last post. Thank you for all your positive comments. I really appreciated them. I am required apparantly to give my first mame. I don't know why and dont want to. So thank you all and most likely good bye for now.
Reid Malenfant
13-10-2012, 19:34
Surely that isn't a problem? :scratch: We all have out christian names in our profiles here as it makes for a far friendlier place, mine is top left of my signature :)
Nobody would be able to identify you just by putting your christian name in your profile, so I wouldn't worry about that if I was you...
Stick you name in there & stop fannying about :rfl: You honestly will not find a friendlier or more helpful forum than this one...
It'd also be a shame not to see these speakers when they are finished & hear about how they sound ;)
Surely that isn't a problem? :scratch: We all have out christian names in our profiles here as it makes for a far friendlier place, mine is top left of my signature :)
Nobody would be able to identify you just by putting your christian name in your profile, so I wouldn't worry about that if I was you...
Stick you name in there & stop fannying about :rfl: You honestly will not find a friendlier or more helpful forum than this one...
It'd also be a shame not to see these speakers when they are finished & hear about how they sound ;)
Very fair comment... Let me think about it...
Cheers
I can assure you there is nothing more sinister in it than wanting to make AoS a more friendly community - using first names is part of that, but you can make it up if you want! If you've ever secretly wished you had been christened Cuthbert or Archibald or maybe even Dorothy - now is your chance! ;)
Stratmangler
13-10-2012, 19:56
If you've ever secretly wished you had been christened Cuthbert or Archibald or maybe even Dorothy - now is your chance! ;)
Is there a Freudian slip in there matey?
Dorothy UK doesn't have quite the same ring to it as Alex UK, does it? :eyebrows:
ATB
Gladys :ner::D
aquapiranha
13-10-2012, 20:00
Very fair comment... Let me think about it...
Cheers
Please do, it is great to have people like your good self about. Steve. :)
Stratmangler
13-10-2012, 20:03
Very fair comment... Let me think about it...
Cheers
You need to continue here - I have a pair of FH3s, built by my mate Colin (Toppsy) of this parish, and I love 'em.
Now I couldn't help noticing that you seem to have rather a lot of stuffing at the top of the line, and I was going to suggest that it might be a bit difficult to get at for adjusting the stuffing levels.
Now I couldn't help noticing that you seem to have rather a lot of stuffing at the top of the line, and I was going to suggest that it might be a bit difficult to get at for adjusting the stuffing levels.
I thought the same - the bass is likely to be somewhat overdamped with that much stuffing below the driver. I used around 1/2 to 2/3rds of that amount to get the results I wanted.
This is why I suggested that you caulk seal and screw on the last side panel instead of gluing, just in case you want to make adjustments.
I hope that you've got it right first time :mental:
Stratmangler
13-10-2012, 21:51
Ooops!!
:rfl:
Now I couldn't help noticing that you seem to have rather a lot of stuffing at the top of the line, and I was going to suggest that it might be a bit difficult to get at for adjusting the stuffing levels.
It's not a problem, I can get my hand in to fish out more stuffing. By the top of the line do you mean below the speaker at the front, or at the top of the 'v' can't think what it's called.
By the way as can be seen, I've relented, begrudingly I might add, and added a name at the top.
Below the speaker. I went througha couple of adjustments through the speaker cut-out before I was happy (so I ended up with less than the photo in my build thread shows)
Cheers,
Keith
Below the speaker. I went througha couple of adjustments through the speaker cut-out before I was happy (so I ended up with less than the photo in my build thread shows)
Cheers,
Keith
Ahhh, I was stood in the garage looking at your build thread on my phone and put the stuffing in according to what yours looked like...:doh:
Of course I'm not blaming you :), should've asked first I suppose. Does the stuffing in the back section look ok from the pics?
Reid Malenfant
13-10-2012, 22:40
By the way as can be seen, I've relented, begrudingly I might add, and added a name at the top.
:eyebrows: Huge difference from your online monika of glenann, glad you chose to stay Glen :)
:eyebrows: Huge difference from your online monika of glenann, glad you chose to stay Glen :)
Thanks for that... I could've picked Ann, but went for Glen, seems the better choice :rolleyes:
Stratmangler
13-10-2012, 22:44
It's not a problem, I can get my hand in to fish out more stuffing. By the top of the line do you mean below the speaker at the front, or at the top of the 'v' can't think what it's called.
By the way as can be seen, I've relented, begrudingly I might add, and added a name at the top.
You could have maybe fitted some wire mesh below the driver to halt the downward progress of the stuffing.
That would have enabled you tease the stuffing material out a bit more, without any danger of it falling onto the base of the cabinet.
The issue usually isn't one of stuffing, but of its density ;)
Hi Glen.
My real name is Mary, but I keep quiet about it :D
You could have maybe fitted some wire mesh below the driver to halt the downward progress of the stuffing.
I have glued a couple of zip ties in there, so it shouldn't fall through... hopefully.... these are my first ones.... :rolleyes:
aquapiranha
14-10-2012, 09:11
When I built the sachikos I left the side off so I could try them out first. I just used clamps until I was happy. I will put some veneer on the front sides and top of these but I will not bother with the back probably.
Crash Tested
16-10-2012, 12:50
Well.... I know Glen has finished his speakers.... Will he actually post up some pics? Anyway it's official. The world record for DIY building a pair of Frugal Horns has been smashed.... 20 hours (ish).... Cost.... Around £80, not including a few tools which will be used again..
So Glen, myself and Noonian sat down last night for some serious listening. The drive units have had about 200 hours of light low volume running in, so it was time to see if they were worth £80....
The system is very simple... NAS Drive....Sqeezebox....Pioneer A400... Frugal Horns... I know the cables are high quality but I cant remember what they are.
First things... I've listened to a load of stuff over the years, ranging from the small low prices systems to huge high cost systems that require plenty of space. So my comments should be placed in that context... This is a small low cost system in a small to medium sided room... Having said all that, I'm no expert when it comes to full range drive units in a folded horn layout, over the years I have herd very few of this kind of design..
Expectations.... Not much really. Both myself and Glen had fairly low expectations of overall sound quality. (Given the price and our own limited expertise in building speakers). I expected a highly detailed sound with good imaging, and I looked forward to high quality vocals. I didn't expect anything great in the dynamics department or in the bass region which I thought would probably be weak and vague... It total I didn't think the system would "move" me, take my breathe away, or entertain me over a long period...
I was just plain wrong... These are a serious bit of kit. They do very well in the areas I would expect, but equally as well in areas I didn't...
The stereo soundstage is excellent, both in terms of width and depth. The speakers placed instruments outside of there plain, not by much, but unknown (to me) at this price level. As expected, instrument separation is excellent and was very easy to follow along with the various musicians.
Vocal quality is exceptional, no doubt there, and is this systems forte' it just cannot be faulted in any way....
This system has got bass.... It's not huge but well proportioned. You can hear bass guitar notes start and stop. I can hear the difference between a low E and F. It's not going to punch you through the back wall, but I never thought I was missing out on anything' and it is certainly not weak. I know Glen was thinking of maybe adding a Sub to the system before we herd it.... Not now...
The treble region... If I have any reservations they would be here. That's not to say it's a disaster... It's certainly not... The treble isn't what I would describe as sweet, but certainly not harsh. There were times when it would just push my "distress button" but not much and only on certain recordings. I reckon that with more running in time and some adjustments to placing it my sort it's self out.. Either that or a nice valve amp... It isn't a flaw... It just needs tweaking...
Overall... Totally impressed. The system had my complete attention. I never felt the need to stop a track half way though and play something else. The overall sound was full and unstressed and certainly entertaining...
The context... 9/10
:thumbsup:
aquapiranha
16-10-2012, 13:43
:)
Sounds awesome, well done chaps.
Maybe try a smoother amp?
Cheers,
I also found them to be quite adequate :D
Seriously though, hats off to Carlton & "Glen" for doing a top notch job. With a few tweaks this system could be a bit of a giant slayer.
PS
The amp is actually a Pioneer A300r Precision not an A400 :ner:
Congratulations on the World Record - have a (virtual) Guinness on me :cool:
I agree pretty much with your listening impressions. Further running-in will improve things further. Can't say I've noticed much roughness in the treble though - maybe this will go away with more running-in or a different amp should fix if not.
LET'S SEE THOSE PHOTOS!
aquapiranha
16-10-2012, 15:20
Yet to hear a poor report on these speakers. Mine are about half way done but I am hampered by time constraints and can't wait to get them finished.
Stratmangler
16-10-2012, 15:34
Nice one!
You need to use a supertweeter to get the best out of those drivers.
When you do you'll find that everything hangs together better and the attack and dynamics take a big step forward.
Crash Tested
16-10-2012, 15:38
@Keith...
I wouldn't say they were harsh... I nearly didn't mention it at all but thought I should say something.
If you've never noticed it (and I'm sure you have more experience with Frugals than me), then maybe we should look at some other part of the system...
Would be interested to see Glens remarks...:)
Good stuff.
Amazing what you can make on the cheap.
Don't know the 300 but if it's like the 400 i'd get rid of it.
Don't know the 300 but if it's like the 400 i'd get rid of it.
I dont know about the A400, but the A300r Precision is part of the "Precision" range of components that were modded by Tom Evans of Audio Design fame. Which is why they are like hens teeth to get hold of.
Which is why I'll NEVER forgive Glenann for stealing mine from me for this project
Never.
:wah:
Sorry about the lateness of response. I've had to wire an ethernet cable around my house to get me back ont' web!
So the speakers are more or less finished, in that they aren't veneered yet. Still thinking what to do with that one. So here's a couple of pics of the finished second one in the garage..
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121014_133634.jpg
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121014_133703.jpg
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121014_133717.jpg
Here's one of the man himself Crash Tested, very pleased with his creation..
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121014_144506.jpg
So to my humble abode and a photo op..
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121015_200059.jpg
You can tell it's good from our DUMB..founded expressions..
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121015_200142.jpg
and a couple of the very modest and simple system..
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121015_203712.jpg
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/glenann/Frugal%20Horn%20Build/20121015_203822.jpg
The speakers are stood on some RDC cones, made a noticeable difference. The speaker cable is Dali Python, something someone gave me once long ago. I like it as it's just good stranded copper, no silver plating!
The Denon 3910 is Crash Tested, who loaned it to me while I got my Touch. I'd first of all like to give a very big thank you to Crash himself, as he's spent considerable time and effort in helping to build these, so thanks mate. Also to that noonie bloke who held the rubber mallett in a very professional way! A thank you too to all who gave some very useful and helpful comments, they were very much appreciated...
Now the sound... well I'm going out in about 10 mins so I'll say more later, but as Crash said, I am over the moon. In the paast I've owned many speakers, Snell E's, Dynaudio's, Wilson Benesch, Living Voice OBX-R2... and last night I didn't feel cheated or disappointed, or any feelings of missing the others dreadfully... high praise indeed. I have to leave it there for now, but more later.
Cheers
aquapiranha
19-10-2012, 20:45
Looking good! I have the EL70's burning in in the office atm, running from VLC via a Bantam amp...currently playing Fragile State - The Facts and the Dreams.. I will try to keep them on as long as I can, and I plan to do a bit more cutting and maybe a bit of assembly on Sunday - fingers crossed...
Steve
electric beach
20-10-2012, 13:27
Congratulations on your new babies - twins no less!
I'm no expert but I've made a few pairs of Frugels and spent quite some time with tuning experiments and different systems. Please take my comments as purely my experiences and certainly not definative, we all have our own ideas of sonic priorities and compromises. This design is intended to work with the room, so tuning in this respect is probably more pertinent than ever.
Although the Mark Audio drivers have an inherent bass lift which allows free siting, the cabinet design is a corner horn and the shape of the rear is 'form follows function' - to shape the rear sound wave and reflect it off the room corner to simulate a larger horn mouth. TRY placing the speakers right in the corners at 45 degrees, just a few inches from the walls before you finalise the damping. It can offer new possibilities in the way the sound projects and flows into the room, the soundstage size and your perception of the whole frequency range. You may not like it with the rolled off top end of the CHP70 drivers (can add supertweeter as Chris suggests), but it's an option to explore that you don't get with many designs.
I do like to combine them with a sub, preferably 12" or 15". This is not to add bass as such, you can get bass that you can feel as well as hear from the Frugels, but for the way that presence and weight are enhanced and it effects your perception of the whole frequency range, especially the top end; it could well resolve your treble reservations at a stroke :eyebrows:
I agree about damping the front chamber too much. With some rooms I have used nothing in this area at all, or just a few handfuls. Filling that section seems to lock down the sound too much, it doesn't let the speaker breathe.
I find that the area at the top of the rear chamber can make quite dramatic changes. It's easy to get at through the driver hole, so compare it filled right to the top with taking it away completely to a few inches below the internal panel. It's possible to get a very airy, open sound this way but it depends on how it's balanced with speaker positioning, sub, front damping and electronics.
I've never heard MDF cabinets though and I like to decouple the speaker, there's always variables but I hope you find my comments at least give you some things to try. These speakers can be such Chameleons that it takes a bit of experimenting to understand balancing them.
Just don't tighten the drivers any more than minimum, especially with repeated removal as it's not difficult to break the plastic screw rebates.
Congratulations on your new babies - twins no less!
I'm no expert but I've made a few pairs of Frugels and spent quite some time with tuning experiments and different systems. Please take my comments as purely my experiences and certainly not definative, we all have our own ideas of sonic priorities and compromises. This design is intended to work with the room, so tuning in this respect is probably more pertinent than ever.
Although the Mark Audio drivers have an inherent bass lift which allows free siting, the cabinet design is a corner horn and the shape of the rear is 'form follows function' - to shape the rear sound wave and reflect it off the room corner to simulate a larger horn mouth. TRY placing the speakers right in the corners at 45 degrees, just a few inches from the walls before you finalise the damping. It can offer new possibilities in the way the sound projects and flows into the room, the soundstage size and your perception of the whole frequency range. You may not like it with the rolled off top end of the CHP70 drivers (can add supertweeter as Chris suggests), but it's an option to explore that you don't get with many designs.
I do like to combine them with a sub, preferably 12" or 15". This is not to add bass as such, you can get bass that you can feel as well as hear from the Frugels, but for the way that presence and weight are enhanced and it effects your perception of the whole frequency range, especially the top end; it could well resolve your treble reservations at a stroke :eyebrows:
I agree about damping the front chamber too much. With some rooms I have used nothing in this area at all, or just a few handfuls. Filling that section seems to lock down the sound too much, it doesn't let the speaker breathe.
I find that the area at the top of the rear chamber can make quite dramatic changes. It's easy to get at through the driver hole, so compare it filled right to the top with taking it away completely to a few inches below the internal panel. It's possible to get a very airy, open sound this way but it depends on how it's balanced with speaker positioning, sub, front damping and electronics.
I've never heard MDF cabinets though and I like to decouple the speaker, there's always variables but I hope you find my comments at least give you some things to try. These speakers can be such Chameleons that it takes a bit of experimenting to understand balancing them.
Just don't tighten the drivers any more than minimum, especially with repeated removal as it's not difficult to break the plastic screw rebates.
Thank you for those comments. Yes they will prove helpful. I've not commented yet as I wanted to let the drivers run in some more. But so far, and keeping in mind my very modest system of Touch and Pioneer A300R, they are sounding much better than I anticipated. The bass in particular keeps on surprising me. The sound in general is full bodied and vocals, as expected, are very natural and realistic.
Occaisionally, the treble does harden at higher volumes with certain tracks. I listened to one song, I think it was Genesis, 'The Lady Lies' from 'Then There were Three' remastered boxset. As it got loud and complex it became just a wall of sound... quite unpleasant. This may be down to a few things though. I've not tweaked the speaker at all yet. The Touch is standard with very basic Tandy, as was, interconnects (the ones Kessler raved about years ago). The amp tends to be a little bright sometimes and the speakers still, I feel, need more time... so this could change. Also The recording itself may be lacking, hard to tell really.
I do have a Vibe sub, that a good friend gave me a while a go. I think it was in the region of £500 when new. I'll try that at some point too. I can only wire from the speakers terminals of the amp though as theres no preout on the Pioneer.
Anyway I'll keep you posted as and when things change.
Thanks again.
This has been a long time coming I know, but here goes... So I've had the speakers since last year, October or November. Since then I've added a Beresford Bushmaster dac too. For a couple of months I had a vibe sub on there too, but recently I took that out and also took a little bit of damping out of the area just below the driver.
Well I've always been very impressed with the speaker. Loads of detail, image and separation. Bass, although not deep, was, I believe, accurate. Certainly not overblown or bloated, which I love. I've had the dac about 6 to 8 weeks and have more or less run it constantly. Now although I've always enjoyed the sound, I have always made allowances for its failings due to the fact they are my babies!
Until last week, when suddenly everything seemed to just come together. The brightness that was sometimes a pain in the ears.... Well it's no longer there. Music is now musical, rather than hi-fi! Now I don't know what has happened, maybe the speakers have finally run in, or the dac has.... But whatever it is, I'm even more ecstatic. I was thinking of having a go at some double mouth horns, or another set of better/bigger MA drivers in a pencil design, now I don't think I'll bother..... Wow, I love my Frugals.....
So after spending considerable time on ebay and classified threads, I'm thoroughly confused. Budget is always a problem for me... in other words I don't have any money! But the hi-fi belly needs feeding!
Soooo, I would really appreciate your thoughts please. My system is now, SBT touch, Bushmaster DAC, Pioneer A300R precision amp, FH3 (CHP-70 MKI). Now after a couple of months of permanent running the DAC has come on song and the system sounds really good. However, I think the amp is the last piece of the puzzle, so what do you think of the Bantam Mono's and if possible, upgrading the Bushmaster to Variable output, thereby using that as a pre? Would that work and more importantly sound good? Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
Many Thanks.
Just wanted to say a big thank you to Stratmangler for all his help with regards to my super tweeters for the FH3's. I couldn't have made them without it. They've only been on for 10 minutes, but already they are sounding good. I'll let you know when they've run in more.
Cheers
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.