how things change....

[the engine]

I bought a musical fidelity HPA recently.
I bought it blind....no demo. Not often I do that but my old X-Can 2 went tits up and I hoped they had stuck with the sonic signature.
Well what a dissapointment !!
The blandest thing I've ever heard through my Grado SR80's
Even switching to my Audio Technica ADH's which are a lot more fleet footed brought not much improvement.
Now though after leaving it playing the radio for 4 days things have changed. I'm dead chuffed with this thing. The trebles got it's sparkle and the bass is sublime. The mid range is showing me thing I didn't know existed.Best headphone amp I've had by a mile.
Brings the question though.....seeing as most equipment , especially Cartridges , speakers , and amps alter so much after running in , is it worth demo'ing half the time ??
My Ortofon 2M Black for eg sounded nothing like it does now for at least 50 hours running in time.
And speakers sound totally different in a home environment.
Just a thought .:scratch:

[lovejoy]

Well it's a nice bonus when things run in and improve but not so good when it goes the other way...

When I bought my ProAc D18s last January, I had them on home dem for a week and completely fell for them. They worked perfectly in my room and I couldn't fault them in the slightest. What I didn't know was that the shop had only just got them out of their boxes and I was the first one to play them (until it was too late) and so I bought a pair and everything was good for a while.

Then they fully run in and it all went wrong. All of a sudden my small room was completely overpowered with bass and they became completely unbearable. So now they've got to go.. An expensive mistake. I won't be visiting that particular hi-fi shop again that's for sure.

[the engine]

Thats a bummer....Everyone seems to talk of components improving with use. I guess it stands to reason it can go the other way to.

[Yomanze]

I agree it is not worth demoing new equipment unless you are able to have it for 30 days.

Going into a shop vastly changes too many variables in the first place never mind sale or return. It is a very difficult buying situation when everything is different to what you're used to. Aside from my speakers (I demoed the previous versions and bought them, so semi blind) all of my kit has been bought blind but through extensive research, trying different things in the process and trying to understand my tastes.

LFD amps for instance are a lot like my Exposure amps in that they literally sound 'cold' until they have warmed up. To get equipment demos right you really need to allow them to get to their own conditions in your own system, own room, own tunes.

[the engine]

Amazing really when you think about how much some people must spend on a certain piece of audio only to find it's not as good after a few weeks.
My most expensive piece was my gyro dec with the audiomods arm....which I was familiar with anyway. And I still love it.
That's the only real way I suppose....to hear someone else's well run in gear.
Not always the oportunity though is there ? Especially with the more exotic items. I still would hesitate to buy an item from say China for a couple of grand or whatever though without ever hearing even a cold example.Then at least you can hope it's not going to alter by a million miles ... The problem as well is monthly mag reviewers can give polar opposite views of the same equipment. Not easy is it ?
I bet people have spent absolutely gobsmacking amounts on amplification with no comeback when it turns a bit bland for them ??:rolleyes:

[synsei]

The irony in my case was finding a 60 quid amp that totally out performs everything I've owned before... :lol:

[Spectral Morn]

The Musical Fidelity KW500 was one such for me.

New it was musical and just the right side of the warmer side of neutral as it ran in it opened up and gained balls. The problem is the musicality evaporated to leave a cooler muscle amp. It was a demo amplifier and I wasn't buying it just getting to know it re how it performed so I was forearmed and informed to help customers who asked about it. Personally I would not have had the gift of one.

The Trivista amplifier and the Nu Vista amp had the muscle but they were a lot more musical and enjoyable to listen to.

The number of people who never hear what kit does properly, either because its not run in and they don't spend enough time running it in or they think its run in but its not - such as in the case above is staggering I think. All those items sent back, rejected, so many missed boats :(

Moral of the story is spend as much time as you can evaluating before you reject and in many cases that's months not hours and all dealers make damn sure what you are demoing is fully run in.

As a reviewer I have the same problems re product run in. I ask for kit cables etc to be sent run in and if its not, then some guide line as to how long it takes. My safety net is I spend on average 3 months evaluating before I write anything unless I know the item is run in fully. If it is I can usually get under the skin of a given product a lot more quickly.

On one occasion I was about to put the review to bed and I had just one more listen and :eek: it had improved further. I had to rewrite the review to reflect the improvement. It wasn't a negative review as such but it ended up being better than it would have been.

I know run in is a hot topic re whether it exists or not but in my many years of experience I have very rarely heard an item that didn't have some degree of run in.

My advice is always assume things do and over run it in to make sure what you are hearing is the products full performance.

[Daniel75]

I always audition everything at my place for as long as I can. Not because of "burn in" phenomena which I find hard to believe, but because you need to get accustom to new sonical "character" and see how it works in your listening enviroment.

I never had impression that things got worse. In majority of the cases, after couple of weeks, differences were always very subtle. Too subtle to be bothered with 'em to be honest. This combined with how unpredictable audio is (my kit sounds different depending on how tired I am, time of a day Im listening to it etc.) led to one personal conclusion - what really matters, for me, are speakers.

Speakers where always the only bit of equipment where I could hear/remember differences clearly even after few weeks of listening sessions.

[PLINIUS]

The Musical Fidelity KW500 was one such for me.

New it was musical and just the right side of the warmer side of neutral as it ran in it opened up and gained balls. The problem is the musicality evaporated to leave a cooler muscle amp. It was a demo amplifier and I wasn't buying it just getting to know it re how it performed so I was forearmed and informed to help customers who asked about it. Personally I would not have had the gift of one.

The Trivista amplifier and the Nu Vista amp had the muscle but they were a lot more musical and enjoyable to listen to.

The number of people who never hear what kit does properly, either because its not run in and they don't spend enough time running it in or they think its run in but its not - such as in the case above is staggering I think. All those items sent back, rejected, so many missed boats :(

Moral of the story is spend as much time as you can evaluating before you reject and in many cases that's months not hours and all dealers make damn sure what you are demoing is fully run in.

As a reviewer I have the same problems re product run in. I ask for kit cables etc to be sent run in and if its not, then some guide line as to how long it takes. My safety net is I spend on average 3 months evaluating before I write anything unless I know the item is run in fully. If it is I can usually get under the skin of a given product a lot more quickly.

On one occasion I was about to put the review to bed and I had just one more listen and :eek: it had improved further. I had to rewrite the review to reflect the improvement. It wasn't a negative review as such but it ended up being better than it would have been.

I know run in is a hot topic re whether it exists or not but in my many years of experience I have very rarely heard an item that didn't have some degree of run in.

My advice is always assume things do and over run it in to make sure what you are hearing is the products full performance.
Hi Neil, Having spent 38 years in the industry,I am in total agreement with you. I am a bit bemused that any debate on run in still exists.

[icehockeyboy]

I have found that ic's and speaker cables that had a certain "sparkle" tend to "dull out" a few weeks in, call it whatever you will, burn in, or just my ears getting used to the sound, I believe that is why lots of folk around here swap kit on a regular basis.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Neil, Having spent 38 years in the industry,I am in total agreement with you. I am a bit bemused that any debate on run in still exists.

Me too but such is life.

Hi Peter are you Plinius? If so you will need a trade account. I have heard a few of your designs over the years and liked them.

[Daniel75]

Hi Neil, Having spent 38 years in the industry,I am in total agreement with you. I am a bit bemused that any debate on run in still exists.

I would assume that its because there is no scentific proof that cables need some "brak in/run in" period to achieve full potential?

Any topic which falls into subjective/esoteric category will cause similiar reactions. So unless someone will actually present scientific evidence - people will remind divided.

[wee tee cee]

I bought a musical fidelity HPA recently.
I bought it blind....no demo. Not often I do that but my old X-Can 2 went tits up and I hoped they had stuck with the sonic signature.
Well what a dissapointment !!
The blandest thing I've ever heard through my Grado SR80's
Even switching to my Audio Technica ADH's which are a lot more fleet footed brought not much improvement.
Now though after leaving it playing the radio for 4 days things have changed. I'm dead chuffed with this thing. The trebles got it's sparkle and the bass is sublime. The mid range is showing me thing I didn't know existed.Best headphone amp I've had by a mile.
Brings the question though.....seeing as most equipment , especially Cartridges , speakers , and amps alter so much after running in , is it worth demo'ing half the time ??
My Ortofon 2M Black for eg sounded nothing like it does now for at least 50 hours running in time.
And speakers sound totally different in a home environment.
Just a thought .:scratch:The HPA is a crackin head amp, its also a great single line pre amp.The dac section isn't great but a nice addition none the less....
works really well with the m1 dac/v link/co ax....

[the engine]

Cheers Tony.

[PLINIUS]

Me too but such is life.

Hi Peter are you Plinius? If so you will need a trade account. I have heard a few of your designs over the years and liked them.
No Neil I'm not, but was involved in the auditioning of prototypes for the company founder Peter Thompson. Pete was a nice, straight-forward man who was hard not to like, he was later joined by Garry Morrison ( Craft Audio).
I have no current connection to the company.
Most of my time was spent in retail, design, import & consultancy.
Sorry if the Avatar is confusing, it hadn't occured to me as Pete left the company some years ago