Denon DL103 arrives at Tarzan Towers

[Tarzan]

l have to say firstly, l plonked the cart on my Sumiko headshell( see avatar for rest of system) and tobe honest didn't expect a great deal in given my phono stage ( l borrowed some Ortofon T5's step ups they went in the CA640P's MM input as the MC input has not much gain),fitted the cart to said headshell, a bit of a pain but managed it ok, set the VTF and Anti- skating to 2.5g, lowered the arm on to a record to find the backof the arm with it's arse in the air:scratch:, so put the orginal rubber mat under the Oyaide mat, farted around with arm height and managed to get the arm parallel with the record.


Still with me? Put on arecord, and was suprised how good the cartridge sounded straight off the bat- harshness, no, gain ok, innergroove distortion, no, instead l got a warm, full-bodied and refined sound and this is the hook for me a very balanced, cohesive sound, which makes for loads of listening time without fatigue,

was a bit daunted in the past of buying one of these carts, thinking it a bit of a dark art getting the thing to work, anyway feel free to comment or take the rise, l am going to listen to some more sounds:band:

[chris@panteg]

Sounds good to me , when I tried a 103R I couldn't get it to stop sounding harsh ? It was in an alloy heavy body too , my biggest problem was I had to wind the counter balance almost to the back of my 309 which worried me ? But I could hear something special about this cart though .

[Tarzan]

Yay! Someone responded! Sounds really refined l am happy suprised you can get this kind of sound for buttons (hifi buttons that is), one thing l have noticed with the cart is how quick music goes, it is LP after LP, you enjoy the sound a lot- Chris you say you had one in a SME 309, could you expand a little more on this? l have an SME V which l will try, a reckon that could wake the SME V up a bit!:)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Interesting cos I'm planning on getting one of these for my SME 3012 :eyebrows: Can I asked how much you paid for yours?? Secondly, have you had a look on the net, this appears to be one classic cart for SME arms, especially SME & garrard 301/401's. There also appears plenty of mods around on the net.

[chris@panteg]

Yay! Someone responded! Sounds really refined l am happy suprised you can get this kind of sound for buttons (hifi buttons that is), one thing l have noticed with the cart is how quick music goes, it is LP after LP, you enjoy the sound a lot- Chris you say you had one in a SME 309, could you expand a little more on this? l have an SME V which l will try, a reckon that could wake the SME V up a bit!:)

I'm informed there is no reason why a 103 shouldn't sing in a 309 ? The V should work just fine I would have thought , I needed a heavier counter weight with the one I tried , not cheap though from SME .

[Tarzan]

Tweaked already! Put a Stanton plate on the headshell, and extra weight at the back- result subtle improvements all round.:cool:

It certainly a tweaky cart!:)

[chris@panteg]

Tweaked already! Put a Stanton plate on the headshell, and extra weight at the back- result subtle improvements all round.:cool:

It certainly a tweaky cart!:)

Excellent , I'm sure Marco will chime in with some advice , he knows the 103 quite well you know :eyebrows:

[Tarzan]

Excellent , I'm sure Marco will chime in with some advice , he knows the 103 quite well you know :eyebrows:



:popcorn::)

[NRG]

I never found the 103 a synergetic(!) match for the SME309, the effective mass is way too low. Slapping on extra spacers and weights is a band aid and compromises arm performance. Its best matched to an arm with a high effective mass out-of-the-box IE Jelco or SME3012 etc. I dont think you'll ever hear it at its best in a low mass arm. Also, loading plays a big part in the presentation, you really need 3x more than the standard 100 Ohm loading of the majority of phono stages....my 2p worth.

[chris@panteg]

That's interesting , I thought the 103 needed a lower impedance ?

But I must admit I'm still struggling to fully understand this ?

[NRG]

The output impedance of the 103 is 40 Ohm, so rule of thumb loading is x5 to x10 this in which case you're looking at 200 to 400 Ohms or greater...I settled on 330 as this was the nearest value standard resistor size in my spares box.

The 103R has an output impedance of 14 Ohms so you can use 100 Ohms with it.

Edit: was under the impression the 3012 had an effective mass around 20g, seems its only 14g so may not be such a good match...proof of the pudding is in the eating though so could work very well...

[chris@panteg]

The output impedance of the 103 is 40 Ohm, so rule of thumb loading is x5 to x10 this in which case you're looking at 200 to 400 Ohms or greater...I settled on 330 as this was the nearest value standard resistor size in my spares box.

The 103R has an output impedance of 14 Ohms so you can use 100 Ohms with it.

Edit: was under the impression the 3012 had an effective mass around 20g, seems its only 14g so may not be such a good match...proof of the pudding is in the eating though so could work very well...

Thanks Neal , are the values the same with an SUT and active phono stage ?

[NRG]

Yes, the cart needs to see a load...it will affect the frequency response and electrical damping of the cartridge.

[chris@panteg]

Yes, the cart needs to see a load...it will affect the frequency response and electrical damping of the cartridge.

The reason I'm a little confused is my own 33EV , is working just dandy into the 100 ohm setting on my Diablo ! But when I asked Andrew Rothwell about his SUT , this has a standard 20 ohm setting , he said because my EV has an internal impedance of 5 ohms then it should be fine ?

Confused .com .

[Tarzan]

Well, have about 10-15hrs on the ole girl now and this cart sounds so right? Cripes,l am listening to a lot of records when l really should be doing other stuff, and again what strikes me is how easy it is to listen to just one more LP.................................:)

[NRG]

The reason I'm a little confused is my own 33EV , is working just dandy into the 100 ohm setting on my Diablo ! But when I asked Andrew Rothwell about his SUT , this has a standard 20 ohm setting , he said because my EV has an internal impedance of 5 ohms then it should be fine ?

Confused .com .

10x loading is a guide. 20 ohms, a 4x loading, will subjectivley alter the presentation...maybe giving the sound a bit more body at the expense of some air at the top end. Its a very personal choce...I dont like to load a cartridge down by that much but I know others do...only way to find out what works is to experiment.

[NRG]

Curious, just read the Rothwell web site and I may have read it wrong but he recommends the higher the loading the better...20 Ohm would seem to be too low therefore...and he seems to contradict himself in regard to primary and secondary loading of the SUT. Anyhow, its something you would have to experiment with Chris to find what suits you...

[chris@panteg]

Ahh I had another look too , I was confusing the input impedance with the internal impedance ? So it is 100 ohms , the internal impedance is 20 .

Thanks .

[Audio Al]

Was going to ask what a SUT is but found it on this thread

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=355980#post355980

Nice one :)

[Moko]

Not sure if this makes sense with my 103R I am using the 50 Ohms stage on my Beyerdynamics SUT as I was advised this gave the best results....and it does sound very nice but I have no idea how the maths works out.

[Tarzan]

Had a play around with the Denon after doing a search on this forum (and indeed the internet) and decided to put more weight on the headshell,for even better sound, so on went a 3g weight and two very long bolts 18mm?Anyway this little combo weighes a lot, this required three 5p pences with blu-tac on the counterweight to level the arm out- the result was horrible:scratch:, bright, bleached and unmusical ( never thought l would say that about this cartridge!) had l done something wrong, this went against everything l had read regarding the cartridge, played around with tracking weight, arm height etc, nothing stil the same:scratch:


Still with me? this lot is coming off, so l re-plumbed the Denon in without the extra ballast- much better:scratch:, put the phono leadsinto the 640P MC stage:mental:, lifted the rear of the arm up so it is sitting up from the cart and drum roll please;:gig::band: it sounds amazing, warm, full, very musical with amazing tonal colour- l am one happy camper, but l still curious why l broke all the Denon DL103 rules and came up smiling................................

[Mr Kipling]

But what does Cheetha think of it?

Ungowwa. Ungowwa.

[Tarzan]

l love this cartridge! Musicians play with such joy, l have chores to do but just one more record, no wonder this cart has been in production from the dawn of time.:eek:

[Marco]

Nice one, Andy. The 'old nail' makes music such fun to listen to, doesn't it? :)

Marco.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Bloody hell I hate this forum. You do realise that I have put the 103 onto my kick bucket of audio stuff to try out before I kick the mortal coil ;)

[Tarzan]

Nice one, Andy. The 'old nail' makes music such fun to listen to, doesn't it? :)

Marco.

Does it ever mate! Actually bit angry with myself for not trying earlier in my Audiophile career:doh:

[Tarzan]

Bloody hell I hate this forum. You do realise that I have put the 103 onto my kick bucket of audio stuff to try out before I kick the mortal coil ;)


Do it! Do it!:)

[Wakefield Turntables]

I would but I have a new restoration project on the go :eyebrows: I'll be starting a new thread soon!!!

[Tarzan]

Don't panic! Just learnt something about this cartridge, just put on a record l know well, quiet good 60's recording- oh dear sounded dreadful, distortion, surface noise, closed in sound:scratch:

Answer- cleaned the granny out of it, electronic stylus cleaning, scrubbed the stylus, - :eek::eek: we are back in buisness.

The moral of the story, if you want the musical genius of this cartridge keep it clean.


Lesson learnt.:)

[Barry]

Don't panic! Just learnt something about this cartridge, just put on a record l know well, quiet good 60's recording- oh dear sounded dreadful, distortion, surface noise, closed in sound:scratch:

Answer- cleaned the granny out of it, electronic stylus cleaning, scrubbed the stylus, - :eek::eek: we are back in business.

The moral of the story, if you want the musical genius of this cartridge keep it clean.


Lesson learnt.:)

Yes - buy an electronic stylus cleaner. Every vinyl user should have one, just as those with a sizable vinyl collection (say > 400 LPs) ought to have, or have access to, a record cleaning machine.

[tannoyman]

I'm informed there is no reason why a 103 shouldn't sing in a 309 ? The V should work just fine I would have thought , I needed a heavier counter weight with the one I tried , not cheap though from SME .

SME do an exchange scheme which may help to reduce the price. A fiend who has the gold plated version did an exchange for £70

David :):)

[Tarzan]

SME do an exchange scheme which may help to reduce the price. A fiend who has the gold plated version did an exchange for £70

David :):)


Mmmmm interesting, been having a mooch round the web and have found a few peeps using the SME V/ Denon DL103 ( in various guises) and seem happy enough.

[Marco]

Happy enough, perhaps, because they don't know any better? ;)

The only SME arms I'd use with a DL-103 are a 3009, 3012 or a Series M2/M2-12R. The magnesium stuff only 'works', with a 103, up to a point.

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

SME do an exchange scheme which may help to reduce the price. A fiend who has the gold plated version did an exchange for £70

David :):)

I find the typo a little disturbing , but thanks David :)