Cartridge grunt

[The Black Adder]

Hi.

I'm looking at getting another cart and wanted something that will bring out the bass definition. Currently got a vintage cart, a Shure V15 MKIII with Jico stylus.

Just looking for alternative to swap with that has more low down grunt.

Anyone got any recommendations?

Oh, I'm looking at MM for the time being. My tonearm is an original SME 3009 Series 2 (none improved) using the original lead.

Cheers

[YNWaN]

The performance and character of a cartridge can be profoundly influenced by both the arm and the turntable with which it is coupled. I don't know what turntable you are using, but I would consider a different arm.

[MartinT]

It's a bit tricky, your request, because most of the grunty carts are heavyweight trackers and put out a fair amount of energy back into the arm. Not something an SME 3009 will like very much. How about one of the Nagaokas together with a better headshell (yours is removable, I think)?

[The Black Adder]

Cheers guys.

Interesting... I'll take a look at the Nagaokas. Do you have a headshell you can recommend with this or simular cart?

My TT is a Thorens TD124 MKII - I'd like to keep the orginal look to the turntable with the arm etc.. Phono amp is the internal MM stage of a Croft 25

[The Black Adder]

Cheers guys.

Interesting... I'll take a look at the Nagaokas. Do you have a headshell you can recommend with this or simular cart?

My TT is a Thorens TD124 MKII - I'd like to keep the orginal look to the turntable with the arm etc.. Phono amp is the internal MM stage of a Croft 25

[MartinT]

He speaks twice!

I recommend the Sumiko as being of good build and inexpensive.

[The Black Adder]

lol... yeah sorry about that.. the screen froze and it posted twice...

Ok, great stuff. Will take a look. Cheers Martin.

[Kvaal]

Another possibility is the Shure V 15 mk II. More output in the low octaves than the mk III.

[Dominic Harper]

The SME 3009 Pre improved arm is certainly capable, regardless of what people have been led to believe.

[sq225917]

Capable it might be but it's not a great arm for delivering strong bass, it's strengths are firmly in the mids compared to heavier stiffer arms. Speaking as a 10 year + 3009 pre imp owner.

[Dingdong]

Rewire the arm. With anything. It'll be better than what you have now.

ADC headshells are quite decent, depending on the weight you want.

Did you ever try that V15 IV? and was that any better in the low frequencies?

[Dominic Harper]

Capable it might be but it's not a great arm for delivering strong bass, it's strengths are firmly in the mids compared to heavier stiffer arms. Speaking as a 10 year + 3009 pre imp owner.

Cannot agree with this at all

[The Black Adder]

Thanks guys.. very helpful.

I didn't know that about the MKII or the IV so may look in to those.

I guess the arm could do with a re-wire to be honest me thinks

[The Grand Wazoo]

You want to bring grunty bass to a turntable? I'd be looking for a Zeta arm if I were you.

[sq225917]

Cannot agree with this at all

You don't have to agree with it Dom , it's just my opinion, based on my experience. That's the joy of forums we all think differently and have had different experiences. Mine is that I favour a heavier arm, typically gimballed arms with large arm bases and rigidly bolted mounts for the best bass.

The Zeta is a great example, as was the original Sumiko arm and other similarly overbuilt and high precision tonearms.

[The Black Adder]

You want to bring grunty bass to a turntable? I'd be looking for a Zeta arm if I were you.

Hmm.. The ZETA seems like a likey match with the TD124... There is some info on the net matched with the deck. Cheers for that Chris.

Would my cart benefit being fitted to this arm or is it best going for something else?

I guess 'bang' goes the retro look though. :(

[hifi_dave]

If you want good bass and a 'retro' look, try a Fidelity Research FR-64S.

[chelsea]

If you want good bass and a 'retro' look, try a Fidelity Research FR-64S.

Good call.

[YNWaN]

The SME 3009 Pre improved arm is certainly capable, regardless of what people have been led to believe.

I'm not led to believe it Dominic, I've got one.

[Rare Bird]

:rolleyes:

[The Black Adder]

Cheers guys.

Well. I'm going to try a different cart first before chaning the arm. I've put some feelers out but I really like the look of the SME. And it is a great arm. Surely I can get it sounding how I want?...

So... carts.. any more examples?

Mark.. Have you re-wired many of these before? Good feedback?

[Dingdong]

I've got a rewired one knocking about. I did it with vdH MSS07 silver plated copper), which was quite good. I'm sure Cardas is supposed to be good as well. I've just done my Hadcock with vdH msc 150 (stranded silver). Very nice.
The old wire fell apart in my hands as I was taking it out.
The only fiddly bit about rewiring a 300 is the earth wire. Needs a bit of patience. I may have uttered a few swear words.

[The Black Adder]

I've got a rewired one knocking about. I did it with vdH MSS07 silver plated copper), which was quite good. I'm sure Cardas is supposed to be good as well. I've just done my Hadcock with vdH msc 150 (stranded silver). Very nice.
The old wire fell apart in my hands as I was taking it out.
The only fiddly bit about rewiring a 300 is the earth wire. Needs a bit of patience. I may have uttered a few swear words.

Cheers for that, Mark.

I'm certainly not going to take that on... The air would be shades of blue and red. lol

I see Mark at Audioflat (too many Marks) re-wires arms. Do you have any experience with the 3009?

[Reffc]

There should be nothing inherently wrong with the bass performance of the V15/3 as it does have a fairly decent FR to start with. I can't help but think that the grunt issue is more a TT/Phono stage issue than a cart issue. There are classic decks like the 401 which offer great bass performance with the 3009/V15 (a combo I've tried). The 3009/V15 are an ideal match although I never found the bass on the 3009 as good as some unipivots I tried with the 401 (have now settled on a Hadcock 242 which is way better than the 3009 using the Shure). You could try a phonostage that has variable loading, and also worth checking out the wiring including IC's back to phono stage.

[The Black Adder]

Hi Paul.

So many parts to judge I suppose. The original idea was to get the arm re-wired as this would include updating the cable from the arm to the stage.

This cable is the original one and is using the original connectors, everything is original so I was thinking if this might be a place to upgrade?

The stage is the internal one in the Croft 25 pre btw which is no slouch so I've been told.

[Riislingen]

Hi Joe,

I´m using a setup similar to yours. TD-124, 3009, wooden Ortofon Headshell. I would recommend the Cartridgeman MM III for that combo. It sings absolutely marvelous.

As for bass grunt, it has it in spades. It outdoes my Garrard 401 with 12" arm, Orsonic shell and Denon 103.

[Rare Bird]

I'm glad joe's ignoring the advice to get shut of the arm..

[Marco]

+1. You have to consider that his TD-124 is a vintage T/T.

I'll get to this in more detail later :)

Marco.

[Riislingen]

+1 on the arm thing.

The arm fits pretty well on that deck and looks the part too. I had mine fettled by Johnnie7 of AO and never considered ditching it for something else.

[The Black Adder]

Agreed... Slappa ma fayce-io

Yep... on the hunt for a different cart. Does cart/arm compliance really matter? Apparently my arm is a medium compliance arm so maybe it's not that well suited to the V15 MKIII - Does it matter in regards to sound?

[DSJR]

A V15 III with SAS stylus should refine the upper mid and treble regions, allowing the bass to "speak out" more I think, but i do know where you're coming from with this and know the V15 series very well (I own and use them from T2 to VMR).

One thing you could try is to find a good V15 T2. The treble suckout isn't audible as a "dull" sound but more as a restrained one, the tracking is superb as always and the bass has more "juice" in it. I love it loads and seriously didn't think I would....

On a more modern note, what about the Ortofon 2M range? Not too highly compliant, the bodies are solid so shouldn't drive the arm into nasty resonances in the upper midrange. Silly money IMO but since "everyone else" is playing the same game, not overpriced in the audiophool scheme of things. I very much like the old M20 FL Super I have and the 2M Bronze is aparently the spiritual successor to this with a similar but even better sound.

[PLINIUS]

Another modern cartrige that works well in the SME is the Benz Micro Silver. Extended & powerfull bass, sounds fuller, richer & faster.

[WOStantonCS100]

I'm surprised no one has recommended a Stanton (not because I like them). I have found that the 88x, 98x MM's seem to have no lack of bass; quite capable of getting the booty movin'. The 68x series MI's are definitely on the smooth side of everything compared to the MM's; so, I would not recommend those for grunt. Contrary to the usual recommendation for use with a low mass arm; I find them more to my liking in medium mass arms, or, if a low mass arm is used, a heavier headshell. YMV. Incidently, the headshell for the Techy 13/14/15xxMK2's is noticeably beefier than what comes stock with a 12xxMK2 and is my preferred headshell for the Stantons. My tuppence worth.

[PLINIUS]

I'm surprised no one has recommended a Stanton (not because I like them). I have found that the 88x, 98x MM's seem to have no lack of bass; quite capable of getting the booty movin'. The 68x series MI's are definitely on the smooth side of everything compared to the MM's; so, I would not recommend those for grunt. Contrary to the usual recommendation for use with a low mass arm; I find them more to my liking in medium mass arms, or, if a low mass arm is used, a heavier headshell. YMV. Incidently, the headshell for the Techy 13/14/15xxMK2's is noticeably beefier than what comes stock with a 12xxMK2 and is my preferred headshell for the Stantons. My tuppence worth.
It is the difficulty of obtaining an 881s these days that stopped me recommending it, although it is the obvious solution. The 881s is overall a better cartridge than any of the Shure V15 series & with a compliance of 20cu, an excellent match for the 3009.

[The Black Adder]

Cool... Thanks guys.

I'll put some feelers out for a Stanton 881s. Do you think it will be ok on the current (original) SME headshell?

[DSJR]

I agree about the 881S compared to the subtle but softer (bass through to treble) impact 681EEE, but getting styli of any quality will be extremely difficult, unless you take a punt on the Ed Saunders one on the one hand and possibly a Jico SAS on the other - LOADS of unkowns.

The classic SME shell is pretty but frail. If you wish to use one, get the black-tack like gunk that SME supplied with later ones and put a neat blob between cartridge and shell. It really does make a positive difference. Later flat topped SME shells (finger lift screwed to the shell rather than clamped between cartridge and shell top were made from a thicker metal.

[The Black Adder]

I agree about the 881S compared to the subtle but softer (bass through to treble) impact 681EEE, but getting styli of any quality will be extremely difficult, unless you take a punt on the Ed Saunders one on the one hand and possibly a Jico SAS on the other - LOADS of unkowns.

The classic SME shell is pretty but frail. If you wish to use one, get the black-tack like gunk that SME supplied with later ones and put a neat blob between cartridge and shell. It really does make a positive difference. Later flat topped SME shells (finger lift screwed to the shell rather than clamped between cartridge and shell top were made from a thicker metal.

I'll note that... Cheers, Dave. Someone on ze vigvam is selling some vintage heads but not sure if they are suitable.

Well, if I can get hold of one then I think Jico is probably the best source for a replacement stylus. Failing that, I'll look in to the other options, Benz Silver and V15 TII.

[Rare Bird]

Pickering 'XLZ 7500'/'PLZ' Pre was an excellent cartridge..(30cu)

[The Black Adder]

Pickering 'XLZ 7500'/'PLZ' Pre was an excellent cartridge..(30cu)

I see that the Pickering XSV 3000 is basically the same as the 881s too.

[The Black Adder]

hmm, just found this... what do you guys think?

"my very special "warning" in regard to XSV-3000 and 881S is to play them on immaculately clean records, free of finger smudges!!! These cartridges have very high compliance (floppy suspension) and are especially affected by finger smudges on the Lp. This condition causes them to oscillate and become unstable...unbelievably. ( To test for this, play a smudged LP and watch the stylus fingergrip oscillate visibly as the stylus navigates over the smudge). Tonearms with low mass and viscous damping are much preferred!"

RE: http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=47504

[MartinT]

You shouldn't put your fingers on the playing surface ever!

[The Black Adder]

lol... true. Just wondered about the 'unstable' bit.

[Macca]

Hi Joe - it has been suggested before but Nagaoka is worth checking out before the Stantons. I am using an MP11 and prefer to the Stanton 681EE. More body and more euphonic. That is bottom of the (old) range Nag vs top of the current range of Stanton.

[WOStantonCS100]

hmm, just found this... what do you guys think?

"my very special "warning" in regard to XSV-3000 and 881S is to play them on immaculately clean records, free of finger smudges!!! These cartridges have very high compliance (floppy suspension) and are especially affected by finger smudges on the Lp. This condition causes them to oscillate and become unstable...unbelievably. ( To test for this, play a smudged LP and watch the stylus fingergrip oscillate visibly as the stylus navigates over the smudge). Tonearms with low mass and viscous damping are much preferred!"

RE: http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=47504

:scratch: This sounds typical of what I find on some US forums. Why would anyone purposefully play a smudged or dirty record (unless for a quick listen with a cart they didn't care about to see if they like it or not)??? High-ish compliance, yes. If it's "floppy" than the suspension is buggered and needs to be replaced. But, who throws out a whole cartridge (MM especially) just because the stylus assembly is past it's prime??? I have owned 881's and 681's since the mid 80's at least. This guy sounds like he has an agenda, a crappy turntable and/or has no clue as to how to get the best out of said cart.

EDIT: I should probably be less harsh about the "crappy turntable" bit. Nevertheless, I stand by my other comments. They are not "the only" worthwhile carts, as we all know; but, the XSV-3000 and 881S are two dang fine MM carts.

[AlfaGTV]

I recently aquired a NOS pickup from ebay based on a tip from another forum.
It was an Acutex M312 III STR, and at the price it was outstanding! Wholeheartedly recommended to anyone wanting a musical cart with loads of enthusiasm! And as a side effect, one of the absolutey most quiet styluses ive ever tried.

If you come across one, give it a spin!
/Mike

[The Black Adder]

:scratch: This sounds typical of what I find on some US forums. Why would anyone purposefully play a smudged or dirty record (unless for a quick listen with a cart they didn't care about to see if they like it or not)??? High-ish compliance, yes. If it's "floppy" than the suspension is buggered and needs to be replaced. But, who throws out a whole cartridge (MM especially) just because the stylus assembly is past it's prime??? I have owned 881's and 681's since the mid 80's at least. This guy sounds like he has an agenda, a crappy turntable and/or has no clue as to how to get the best out of said cart.

EDIT: I should probably be less harsh about the "crappy turntable" bit. Nevertheless, I stand by my other comments. They are not "the only" worthwhile carts, as we all know; but, the XSV-3000 and 881S are two dang fine MM carts.

Nice one Biff.

Many thanks for clearing that up.

[PLINIUS]

:scratch: This sounds typical of what I find on some US forums. Why would anyone purposefully play a smudged or dirty record (unless for a quick listen with a cart they didn't care about to see if they like it or not)??? High-ish compliance, yes. If it's "floppy" than the suspension is buggered and needs to be replaced. But, who throws out a whole cartridge (MM especially) just because the stylus assembly is past it's prime??? I have owned 881's and 681's since the mid 80's at least. This guy sounds like he has an agenda, a crappy turntable and/or has no clue as to how to get the best out of said cart.

EDIT: I should probably be less harsh about the "crappy turntable" bit. Nevertheless, I stand by my other comments. They are not "the only" worthwhile carts, as we all know; but, the XSV-3000 and 881S are two dang fine MM carts.
Yes Biff, in-fact they better than most people will ever know.
The problem was that most arms at the time the 881s first came out were the limitation. Most reveiws in both the U.S. & U.K. HiFi mags. were done in the SME 3009(in it's variuos forms) which was also incapable of getting the best out of this cartridge ( I can hear the knives sharpening already).
I agree completely with your comments.

[DSJR]

When we sold the 881S, we had the straight AT and similar arms to use it in as SME's were passe by then, especially the plastic and ultra-low-mass Series III. I remember using the Micro Seiki DDX and DQX1000 turntable with a couple of arms on. At around this time, we gained the Linn and Naim agency and the rest is history :(

Just to say that, thanks to Marco, I bothered to get a 681EEE up and running again and even with a little used thirty five year old stylus, it sounds very nice indeed. The 881S offered greater clarity, possibly due to the tip used (I think the bodies may have ben shared in this instance?). The Pickering XV3000 may have been directly related I think (still can't understand two cartridge "firms" using the same internals, but this is how it was back then).

By the way and to MP11 lovers. Look out for something of current production coming out in the next few months you might just fall in love with (I think I have the clues worked out :lol: ) selling for £35 ;)

[PLINIUS]

When we sold the 881S, we had the straight AT and similar arms to use it in as SME's were passe by then, especially the plastic and ultra-low-mass Series III. I remember using the Micro Seiki DDX and DQX1000 turntable with a couple of arms on. At around this time, we gained the Linn and Naim agency and the rest is history :(

Just to say that, thanks to Marco, I bothered to get a 681EEE up and running again and even with a little used thirty five year old stylus, it sounds very nice indeed. The 881S offered greater clarity, possibly due to the tip used (I think the bodies may have ben shared in this instance?). The Pickering XV3000 may have been directly related I think (still can't understand two cartridge "firms" using the same internals, but this is how it was back then).

By the way and to MP11 lovers. Look out for something of current production coming out in the next few months you might just fall in love with (I think I have the clues worked out :lol: ) selling for £35 ;)
You really have to here the 881s with an AT1010 or even better, a Sumiko MC800 to understand just how good it is. Pickering has owned Stanton for as long as I can remember.

[The Black Adder]

Just a quickie... Would a Goldring be a good / better match than the Shure?

[The Black Adder]

pickering xv-15?.. anyone used one of these?

[PLINIUS]

pickering xv-15?.. anyone used one of these?
Joe, the XV15 refers to the series:
The ones suitable for your arm include the XV15- 625E, 750E,1200E.
XEV 3001.

[The Black Adder]

Joe, the XV15 refers to the series:
The ones suitable for your arm include the XV15- 625E, 750E,1200E.
XEV 3001.

Ah... rightyo - Cheers for that. :)

[Audioflair]

A Decca is excellent in the SME 3009. Plenty of bass weight and a really engaging sound. Makes most MM`s sound touch coarse and most MC`s sound touch detached and uninvolving.