Vinyl wet cleaning again ! [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

Marco

10-09-2012, 13:21

So it wont damage vinyl then?

Except that when you're using it, you'll more than likely force whatever debris there is already on the record surface, further into the groove walls where it's unlikely to be shifted again easily, thereby defeating the whole purpose - not to mention scratching the playing surface at the same time, in a way that the naked eye might not see, but the stylus sure as hell will!

Sorry guys, this is bonkers. I have to be frank here and say that anyone taking one of those things to their precious records needs their heads looked it!! :mental:

The fact is, however unpalatable it may be, there are NO genuinely effective shortcuts to wet cleaning vinyl, other than the use of a good RCM. There's no getting away from that. Therefore, unless you want to make an arse of things, save up for an RCM, or be happy dry cleaning with a good quality record brush! :exactly:

Marco.

Daniel75

10-09-2012, 13:39

It looks like "nozzle" thing is removable - so you could put modified "crevice tool" on it? (I saw some pictures on the internet - cant remember where)

Just a thought.

My only reservation would be its power. It could be not powerful enough to suck all the moisture in effectively.

As for bonkers ideas - some are truly bonkers indeed. Some could land under Stroke Of Genius category though:-)

D

Marco

10-09-2012, 13:44

On your head be it, Dan ;)

Marco.

Audioman

10-09-2012, 19:29

I am getting one of these - FOR CLEANING WINDOWS !!!!! :lol:

Anyone putting one near vinyl is mad. :mental: Rubber blade will scratch vinyl. Frankly it will have too much suction and would be impossible to clean along the line of the grooves. Put it this way ruining a couple rare oop records will cost the same as an RCM. :sucks:

Daniel75

10-09-2012, 19:44

The Grand Wazoo

10-09-2012, 19:56

Well, well, well.....they do say there's nowt new under the sun!

Take a look here at post no. 17 & the few afterwards (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17730&highlight=window&page=2)

General Indifference

11-09-2012, 09:00

Far from having too much suction, the opposite is true, they are very weedy compared to the sort of suction you get from an RCM.

I am getting one of these - FOR CLEANING WINDOWS !!!!! :lol:

Anyone putting one near vinyl is mad. :mental: Rubber blade will scratch vinyl. Frankly it will have too much suction and would be impossible to clean along the line of the grooves. Put it this way ruining a couple rare oop records will cost the same as an RCM. :sucks:

shane

11-09-2012, 10:39

Don't even think about it!!!!

One tiny little bit of grit adhering to the nozzle, pad or blade and your vinyl is detroyed. RCMs work by using a soft specially designed brush to loosen the dirt into suspension in the liquid before the vacuuming part of the process. They always make sure that no part of the suction nozzle actually touches the disc, so all the fluid and dirt gets lifted off the vinyl purely by the airflow into the nozzle, not by mechanical action.

That thing looks great for windows. Don't let it anywhere near an LP.

Audio Al

11-09-2012, 10:55

OK , so how much does a RCM cost ?

I had a look and cant find the price of one ? :doh:

DaveK

11-09-2012, 10:56

Far from having too much suction, the opposite is true, they are very weedy compared to the sort of suction you get from an RCM.

Yep, absolutely right. I tried one yesterday and the suction is very mild.
I am also puzzled by the assertion that it will damage the grooves (even if it was high suction, which it ain't :) ). Please correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the stylus sit in the groove, picking up it's information from both sides of the groove, rather than the top edge of the groove? IMO the the tops of the grooves are fairly flat, level and smooth - I'm talking about the very peak of the each groove (ridge?) - surely if these were not flat, smooth, level, whatever, neighbouring grooves would affect the signal from the groove in which the stylus is operating in due to them breaking into each other? The surface of the grooved piece of rubber(?) that actually contacts the tops of the grooves is relatively so rigid and the grooves are so close together, and the suction is so low, IMO there is no way this rubber would be sucked down into the groove to damage it. Another point that occurs to me is that the peak of each ridge has such a miniscule radius that the rubber is physically not capable of deforming to the same radius to permit this.
I repeat, I know nowt of such things, I'm just applying what passes for common sense for me, and so am open to (gentle) correction :) .
I plan to obtain one for window cleaning purposes (WAF brownie points ;) ) and then 'discover' this additional application.
BTW, my neighbour, whose one I borrowed, says they are excellent for cleaning windows and removing condensation from them, FWIW :) .
Dave.

kininigin

11-09-2012, 11:24

Having now heard what a RCM (keith Monks) can do,i will definitely be getting one (not a Keith Monks,how much!!).

I'm not convinced a window cleaner will do the job,but i'd be interested to see someone try it.

Audioman

11-09-2012, 11:26

Yep, absolutely right. I tried one yesterday and the suction is very mild.
I am also puzzled by the assertion that it will damage the grooves (even if it was high suction, which it ain't :) ). Please correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the stylus sit in the groove, picking up it's information from both sides of the groove, rather than the top edge of the groove? IMO the the tops of the grooves are fairly flat, level and smooth - I'm talking about the very peak of the each groove (ridge?) - surely if these were not flat, smooth, level, whatever, neighbouring grooves would affect the signal from the groove in which the stylus is operating in due to them breaking into each other? The surface of the grooved piece of rubber(?) that actually contacts the tops of the grooves is relatively so rigid and the grooves are so close together, and the suction is so low, IMO there is no way this rubber would be sucked down into the groove to damage it. Another point that occurs to me is that the peak of each ridge has such a miniscule radius that the rubber is physically not capable of deforming to the same radius to permit this.
I repeat, I know nowt of such things, I'm just applying what passes for common sense for me, and so am open to (gentle) correction :) .
I plan to obtain one for window cleaning purposes (WAF brownie points ;) ) and then 'discover' this additional application.
BTW, my neighbour, whose one I borrowed, says they are excellent for cleaning windows and removing condensation from them, FWIW :) .
Dave.

If the rubber or more likely grit embedded in the rubber rubs the vinyl surface it will mark/scuff it. I have not found a stylus that avoids picking up even mild sctatches as they obviously often deform the top of the groove causing clicks and crackle. If your theory on reading the bottom sides of the groove was right only an exceptionaly deep scratch would be audible.

LPs are now too pricey and scarce in excellent or above condition to risk this device. RCMs use a felt pad under the suction arm and suction force is concentrated through a narrow slit. If kept clean even though touching the surface no risk of damage to the vinyl. Also the turntable facilitates constant speed of rotation and suction along the line of the grooves.

There is no cheaper alternative to an RCM for effective and SAFE vacuum vinyl cleaning. If you can't afford I suggest a Knosti as the next best alternative utilising a purified water rinse after cleaning with the supplied fluid.

General Indifference

11-09-2012, 11:39

It's no too difficult, and quite cheap to build your own RCM.

If the rubber or more likely grit embedded in the rubber rubs the vinyl surface it will mark/scuff it. I have not found a stylus that avoids picking up even mild sctatches as they obviously often deform the top of the groove causing clicks and crackle. If your theory on reading the bottom sides of the groove was right only an exceptionaly deep scratch would be audible.

LPs are now too pricey and scarce in excellent or above condition to risk this device. RCMs use a felt pad under the suction arm and suction force is concentrated through a narrow slit. If kept clean even though touching the surface no risk of damage to the vinyl. Also the turntable facilitates constant speed of rotation and suction along the line of the grooves.

There is no cheaper alternative to an RCM for effective and SAFE vacuum vinyl cleaning. If you can't afford I suggest a Knosti as the next best alternative utilising a purified water rinse after cleaning with the supplied fluid.

DaveK

11-09-2012, 13:04

If the rubber or more likely grit embedded in the rubber rubs the vinyl surface it will mark/scuff it.
If your theory on reading the bottom sides of the groove was right only an exceptionaly deep scratch would be audible.

Paul,
Regarding your first sentence above, it is surely not too difficult to ensure that the rubber is free of grit or anything else that is likely to mark or scuff the surface before it comes into contact with each record side - in any case, with the exception of the degree of suction involved, the same thing applies to any RCM doesn't it?
Regarding your second sentence, you have misread what I said. I said that the stylus picks up information from both sides of the groove, no mention was made by me of the bottom of the groove. So any movement across the tops of the groove by anything sharp enough to affect the LP material is likely to move a bit of the ridges affected into the groove top, still attached but 'leaning' into one side of the groove, where it will impact the stylus. This would explain why many such clicks etc are in the main heard more on on one channel than the other.
Again, I am no expert on such matters, it just strikes me as being the most likely explanation of what happens.
Dave.

chelsea

11-09-2012, 14:14

£400 for an okki nokki.

Audioman

11-09-2012, 14:41

Paul,
Regarding your first sentence above, it is surely not too difficult to ensure that the rubber is free of grit or anything else that is likely to mark or scuff the surface before it comes into contact with each record side - in any case, with the exception of the degree of suction involved, the same thing applies to any RCM doesn't it?
Regarding your second sentence, you have misread what I said. I said that the stylus picks up information from both sides of the groove, no mention was made by me of the bottom of the groove. So any movement across the tops of the groove by anything sharp enough to affect the LP material is likely to move a bit of the ridges affected into the groove top, still attached but 'leaning' into one side of the groove, where it will impact the stylus. This would explain why many such clicks etc are in the main heard more on on one channel than the other.
Again, I am no expert on such matters, it just strikes me as being the most likely explanation of what happens.
Dave.

Dave.

I wrongly assumed that what you were saying implied you were not worried by any impact the rubber made on the LP surface as it would not affect the groove sides. My experience is that any scuffing on the surface may impact on the audio. Have even found that scuffing caused by taking out of rough sleeves causes crackle.

I am rightly or wrongly suggesting that rubber is too hard to avoid some surface damage and that microscopic particles (from your window cleaning) could remain unoticed in the rubber, so scraping the LP's surface. High risk of causing more noisy vinyl in my view.

A Knosti Disco Antistat is a safer and cheaper option as a second best alternative to an RCM. More long winded and takes more care to avoid label damage but can give 90% of the result of an RCM. It's just that extra 10% that makes all the difference in a revealing system.

Paul.

DaveK

11-09-2012, 21:24

Hi Paul and other interested parties,
First of all I accept the point about nasty stuff finding it's way from the windows onto the surface of the LP. It is obviously something to be guarded against but, if you accept that the Karcher gismo can do a good job of cleaning your LPs it's surely worthwhile to buy one and keep it only for cleaning records.
And so to the proof of the pudding. Tonight I invested in a Karcher window vac and tried it out on 4 charity shop LP acquisition bought yesterday. I played each of them last night, straight out of the sleeve and I was happy with my 50p per LP purchase. I did obviously inspect them before buying and again before playing and they were in good condition, considering where they came from.
Tonight I got 3 x 15" sq. new microfibre dusters (cheap bulk buy from CostCo), together with an unused microfibre paint pad, some RO water, IPA, washing up liquid and dishwasher wetting agent and set about cleaning them. Laid one duster down flat on a kitchen work surface, put the LP flat on top, dipped the paint pad in the cleaning fluid and gently scrubbed in a circular motion. The white froth quickly turned a very delicate shade of muddy grey. I then rinsed that off with RO water, put the LP back on the duster and applied the vac. The surface of the LP came up almost completely dry and a quick polish with another, dry, duster dried it completely and smear free.
turn the LP over and repeat the process - result!!
For the record (sorry ;) ) I used a length of duct tape to seal off just over half of the slot length to increase the vacuum power at the end used to go round the tracks.
No protection of the label is necessary because the LP surface is wet for only a few seconds.
I have played the LPs again tonight and there is a significant improvement - far fewer minor clicks and a lower general noise floor. I am not in a positition to say whether a 'proper' RCM would clean them any better. I accept it probably would but at what price and convenience premium?
I took a few before and after pics of the LPs and they do look better for the cleaning - they certainly sound better - and the fine 'muck' to be seen in the cleaning fluid and rinsing water gave testament to the fact that they had indeed been cleaned.
I'm happy - anyone else put it to the test?
Dave.

Spur07

11-09-2012, 22:10

A Knosti Disco Antistat is a safer and cheaper option as a second best alternative to an RCM. More long winded and takes more care to avoid label damage but can give 90% of the result of an RCM. It's just that extra 10% that makes all the difference in a revealing system.

Paul.

how is an RCM 10% better than a Knosti?

Audioman

11-09-2012, 22:30

Dave.

How bad are the 50p charity shop records to start with? Your cleaning method is certain to improve a realy dirty noisy record and it sounds like your discs have still background noise. Now go out and buy a £30 audiophile Lp and see if you will risk using this device. I see it costs around the same as a Disco-Antistat machine which has proper brushes and cleaning fluid included.

My point is you can clean valuable lps safely for the same money. The vac part is not the be all and end all of the process. In fact the cleaning fluid used and method of application is all important for manual or machine assisted methods. The vacuming both aids drying and gets more contaminants out of the groove than manual/air drying. If you are unwilling to spend £400, for £50 the Knosti is a fine device and will give better results than using a window vac I'm sure and safely.

I'm willing to bet your method is likely to make a new LP worse while a proper RCM is capable of removing fine surface deposits and removing static producing a disc with inky black silences between the music.

If you are still sceptical about the benefits of an RCM send me a few records and I will clean and return them at my own expense. I could do a couple on the RCM and a couple on a Knosti so you can tell any differences. Also remember no cleaning method can cure groove or surface damage.

Paul.

Marco

11-09-2012, 22:43

I'm willing to bet your method is likely to make a new LP worse while a proper RCM is capable of removing fine surface deposits and removing static producing a disc with inky black silences between the music.

+1! Can I take a bet, too?

If you are still sceptical about the benefits of an RCM send me a few records and I will clean and return them at my own expense.

Dave should know the difference already, as I cleaned a load of records for him on my RCM, a couple of years back.... ;)

Have you ever heard of the expression: "don't do it, as it's a false economy"? Well, as far as this thread topic is concerned, never a truer word was said!

Marco.

Audioman

11-09-2012, 22:54

Dave should know the difference already, as I cleaned a load of records for him on my RCM, a couple of years back.... ;)

Have you ever heard of the expression: "don't do it, as it's a false economy"? Well, as far as this thread topic is concerned, never a truer word was said!

Marco.

I think some people appear to be in denial that spending more money actualy achieves better results and probably will save them cash in the long run.

keiths

11-09-2012, 23:48

What Marco said.

I am a cheapskate by nature and by necessity and have tried all sorts of vinyl cleaning methods before eventually biting the bullet and buying a RCM (the Moth kit). It really is the best £220 or so I've ever spent on hi-fi. Remember that the way a RCM works is that you wet the record with a solvent and scrub to displace the contaminants in the grooves into solution . The vacuum then removes the solvent and contaminants from the record.

The Knosti cannot do this - the majority of the contaminants are displaced and spread around the record and deposited more deeply into the grooves than they were before cleaning - the biggest improvement I have got with my Moth is with records I'd previously cleaned with the Knosti.

The Karcher vac looks interesting, but if you've got a couple of hundred or more LPs to clean, then the ease, convenience and safety of any 'proper' RCM will massively outweigh the financial gain IMHO.

The Grand Wazoo

11-09-2012, 23:55

Despite suggesting the window cleaning gadget some months back, I have to repeat what I said then, that I was merely thinking aloud. I wouldn't trust it or myself not to damage the discs while using it.
Stick with a proper machine - it really is worth the investment.
There's a reason why they barely ever become available on the secondhand market - because once you make the leap, you will never regret it.

Daniel75

12-09-2012, 08:07

I dont think that anyone said that RCM's are not better. I know that they are superb. It's more about finding cheaper alternative.

Anyway - quick question to those who built Moth RCM - where one can cut out all those mdf boards (or whatever is recommended) required for the box? I dont have tools or workshop available - nor any of my friends. Can you do it in B&Q or something similiar?

Stratmangler

12-09-2012, 08:16

Anyway - quick question to those who built Moth RCM - where one can cut out all those mdf boards (or whatever is recommended) required for the box? I dont have tools or workshop available - nor any of my friends. Can you do it in B&Q or something similiar?

I'd suggest buying a ready made machine.
It'll cost less in the long run.
DIY is for them that's tooled up ;)

_p_mdGtY26Y

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/33-record-cleaning-machines

DaveK

12-09-2012, 09:33

Now guys, pin back your lug holes and listen (read) carefully. Like many on here I do not have an unlimited budget. Neither do I have anything other than a budget, carefully selected ;) , mainly S/H, mid-fi system. All my records (I still have a number of 45s) are either originals purchased by me in the 60s and 70s, played infrequently on a Dansette, and then put away in the loft when the kids came along and curtailed my music budget, or they are recent carefully selected ;) charity shop purchases. Put another way, I don't think any single item in my set up cost even half as much as the cheapest RCM.
Being retired, free time is not a major problem, so finding time to manually clean records or modify the mechanics (rather than the electronics) of my bits and pieces is also not a problem.
Marco did indeed clean me some of my 60s and 70s LPs, and very well too, but I cannot honestly say that they were cleaned any better than those I did for myself last night. I am not saying that they were not cleaned better, but it is so long ago and they have been played many times since, using 2 or 3 different cartridges, that a comparison is not really possible.
What honestly is the point of spending serious money on a RCM to play records on that sort of kit? I get incremental improvements by spending small amounts of money and larger amounts of time and that, for me, that is half of the fun.
To return to the original subject, the Karcher window vac, used with care (as when handling any LP), does a good job of cleaning records, (particularly when the price is taken into account). The results are noticeable, both when the gunge removed is seen and when the cleaned record is played - much less surface noise and a lower noise floor.
I would not recommend anyone not to buy a 'proper' RCM if they believe the expenditure is likely to be worthwhile for them but anyone wondering whether spending that sort of money can be justified might like to try this route as a first step - and the bonus is that if it does encourage you to buy a 'proper' RCM later you are left with a useful window and shower cleaner and condensation remover :) .
Dave.

Audio Al

12-09-2012, 10:07

Hi Davek

I have read with interest your comments re the window vac

At the moment I cant justify spending £400 - £500 on a special RCM

Reason is as follows :-

I only have what I call a mediocre music system far from audiophile
And I ONLY buy LP's from BOOT SALES always have and always will ,
For me the hunt for music , rummaging through 100s of LP's is all part of the enjoyment , then selecting some ,removing the record from the sleeve to examine its condition and then a bit of bartering leading to a purchase

Most LP are grubby but for between 50p and £1 each I cant expect £30 each quality

Some LP's I buy end up going in the bin , but not many

So at the moment all I need is a method of cleaning vacuuming and drying my 50p LP's

Thanks for taking the time to do this and report on your findings

I am looking at one other option for cleaning and will report back if it happens , if not looks like I will be buying a window vac for windows ( Yes I have some as well :lol: ) and as a side use clean a few LP's with it and see how I get on doing it this way

Regards

Allen

Daniel75

12-09-2012, 10:25

Keep checking http://www.karcheroutlet.co.uk/products/subcat.asp?mID=Pressure-Washer&sID=Sale

Very good prices indeed

D

Audio Al

12-09-2012, 10:32

Keep checking http://www.karcheroutlet.co.uk/products/subcat.asp?mID=Pressure-Washer&sID=Sale

Very good prices indeed

D

I looked and found this :)

" Sorry, there are currently no Window Cleaners. " :(

Daniel75

12-09-2012, 10:34

What about: http://www.karcheroutlet.co.uk/products/product.asp?id=4923

It does dry/wet hoovering and Im sure that Crevice Tool can be modified to not to scratch records? (much less convinient though)

Audioman

12-09-2012, 11:19

:-)

But you could replace rubber with something like this?

http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss162/bloodyhell451/washingmachinepipe.jpg

If one does not want to spend much a modified vacuum nozel (as above) attached to a household vac with adjustable suction is a safer and cheaper solution than the Karcher. You would need to place records on some kind of mat or better a cheap S/H TT. Could be used to remove fluid after Knosti treatment.

DaveK

12-09-2012, 13:51

Audioman

12-09-2012, 15:36

My view, FWIW, is that a brush attached to the vacuum nozzle is not the optimum arrangement, at least not in isolation, as it may restrict the cleaning to one action. In my opinion it is much better to actively, but gently, repeatedly scrub along the direction of the grooves whilst it remains wet with cleaning fluid before then removing the fluid and grunge by vacuuming.
Would probably be a good idea as the way of removing the dirty fluid after the cleaning operation though :) .
Dave.

If you are refering to the previous post Dave - those are felt strips similar to those attached to an RCM vac tube. A better idea is to purchase some Okki Nokki replacement strips which would determine the correct slot size to cut in the tube. They are to protect the vinyl from the hard tube and aid fluid removal by forming a seal.

Alex_UK

15-09-2012, 22:59

There's a reason why they barely ever become available on the secondhand market - because once you make the leap, you will never regret it.

That's true - over 2 years since I posted a "wanted" ad and still not got one...

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7204

Rather ironically though, both dishwasher and washing machine have had to be replaced since... :lol:

AlfaGTV

16-09-2012, 08:10

...

At the moment I cant justify spending £400 - £500 on a special RCM

Reason is as follows :-

I only have what I call a mediocre music system far from audiophile
And I ONLY buy LP's from BOOT SALES always have and always will ,
For me the hunt for music , rummaging through 100s of LP's is all part of the enjoyment , then selecting some ,removing the record from the sleeve to examine its condition and then a bit of bartering leading to a purchase

Most LP are grubby but for between 50p and £1 each I cant expect £30 each quality

Some LP's I buy end up going in the bin , but not many

So at the moment all I need is a method of cleaning vacuuming and drying my 50p LP's

......

Regards

Allen

Hi Allen
While I do appreciate your ambition to find a less costly solution to this, you're naming the exact reasons for actually buying an RCM.

Like you, i mainy get my vinyl second hand, at low cost. Actually very close to the sums you mention. I do buy a few new albums also but i'm afraid the art of mastering for vinyl is lost. Or at least retired, with the likes of Bob Ludwig...

I buy something like 10 LPs per month, sometimes an odd smaller collection. In my opinion, my Okki Nokki earns itself back with every 50 LPs i clean!
How is that then? Well it normally makes these €1 LPs sound like almost new, it perlongs the life of the stylus, which makes it acceptable to buy a dearer one.
Which in turn digs even more music and less noise out if the tracks!

If you really want a cheaper viable option, its the Knosti. Clean your LP's in the Knosti and then rinse them in distilled water. This is Not as good as vaccumdrying, but an acceptable method.
Aqua Purificata is best for rinsing, but becomes expensive when spending the amounts the Knosti needs. Distilled/Battery water is not as pure, but would do fir rinsing i suppose.
What some people do, is to get the condensated water from your tumble dryer, it actually is more or less distilled. Cost you nuttin' and a lot cleaner than tap water (Which is a major no-no!)

My take on cleaning LP's
/Mike

Macca

16-09-2012, 09:14

Mike is absolutely correct. I can appreciate thta some people simply don't have $400 knocking about, and fair enough that is a sizeable chunk of money for anyone. But if you have got it sat in the bank then just go and buy one! You will not lose money, you will make it back on stylus life within a couple of years - less if you use something fancy. If you fall on hard times and need to sell it well there are people queing up to buy them used.

I had the money and prevaricated for a couple of years just because I am a skinflint. In the meantime the price went up £80:doh:. Once I had one I realised what an idiot I was for putting off the purchase for so long. Now I have £1 LPs from the Seventies and Eighties that play as quiet as any CD, even though when I bought them they were, in some cases, literally encrusted with dirt. No need to spend £30 a pop buying the re-issues. What's that saved me? Even if I had paid £1000 for an RCM I would still be very happy.