A Dalek visits A falcoron [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

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Spectral Morn

09-09-2012, 20:01

After my comment on falcoron's - Ron - open baffle speakers in this thread (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20146) and a short exchange of pms I accepted Ron's warm offer of a visit to hear his system and the speakers in question - which are based on Vic of Transfi's Bastani speaker designs (1)

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/004-5.jpg

After a drive along the north shore of Belfast lough towards Larne I found myself with little trouble - thanks to Google Maps - at Ron's house. I had met Ron many years ago when I worked in the HiFi retail trade but in all honesty I could not have put a face to his name.

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/005-3.jpg

After a very warm welcome and a chat about various interests hifi, music and other we got down to some listening initially with Ron's computer based source and then with a Micromega Data CD transport I had brought with me - which fed a signal into Ron's Stan Beresford DAC via XLO reference digital cable. The Micromega sat on a SSC isolation platform on top of a chair - not ideal but as Ron's rack is bunged needs must. Power was supplied via a TCI mains cable and a Mark Grant mains extension strip.

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/007-3.jpg

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/010-2.jpg

Before hooking all of that up though I listened to Hugh Masekela's Stimela which I know intimately well and after a little tweaking of the volume of the Berhinger DEQ2469 the slightly excessive bass which was bleeding into the lower mid and booming in the room was brought into line but in doing this a midrange suck out was made more obvious.

Ron has mention in the other thread - see above link - that he is having problems dialling the settings on the DEQ2469 to bring all the drivers into alignment re eq - no crossover used in his speakers - and set the DEQ up for the room acoustics etc. I must say that despite these issues and the 'still work in progress nature of the speakers' (2) that I was very impressed by what I could hear trying to overcome the set up issues.

The quality craftsmanship of the front panel of these speakers - walnut on birch ply laminations - was very good and with more to do re the structure of the speaker - which may cure some resonances in the overall speaker which may have been causing some bass issues - I was still enjoying the music we listened to.

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/003-6.jpg

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/011-1.jpg

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/012-1.jpg

Its hard with a non commercial design - everything in a bought product already being sorted out - to know how much the issues I heard where speaker related, EQ and or room related. In this case a mixture of all three I would say and with the drive units still running in I was slightly hesitant to say much, but Ron took what I said as encouraging as despite the issues there were many positives.

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/016-1.jpg

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/015-1.jpg

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/014-1.jpg

Music played through these speakers had weight and scale and dynamics that one rarely hears in smaller speakers. The sound stage was wide, though a little shallow and despite the suck out that robbed Hugh Masekela of some of the weight in his voice it was still very enjoyable.

After listening to Stimela I played tracks from Pat Metheny's album Secret Stories, Cinematic Orchestra - Every Day, Mr Scruff - Mrs scruff, Rain Tree Crows - Rain Tree Crows, Steve Khan - Public Access and a compilation CD of female singer song writers. Ron enjoyed my music choices which was good.

The lighter instrumental and female music sounded very good and the music with more overmodulated bass less so, as the issues became more obvious.

However and I said this last night, these speakers showed massive potential and when all the issues are sorted out Ron's OBs will be incredible speakers. All the elements are there and I can't wait to hear them further down the line and as a completed project.

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/001-6.jpg

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/008-3.jpg

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/009-2.jpg

Ron has a beautiful looking and sounding system which consists of the following items: Audio Note M2 Pre-amplifier, Hyperion class A 18w valve mono blocks, the aforementioned Berhinger DEQ2469, Stan Beresford Bushmaster DAC, a nasty - soon to be replaced - noisy pro amplifier QTX QA 1600 - you could hear it buzzing through the speakers from the listening sofa - and the computer audio bits and pieces. The equipment rack was also made by Ron.

The photos I took where in a fairly dark room so are a tad grainy but better than none. I love reading these visits to peoples systems here on AOS but find the lack of photos quite often frustrating, so I decided to take some in order to let you guys see Ron's set up and room.

Thank you Ron for the invite and your warm hospitality I enjoyed myself a lot.

(1) http://www.trans-fi.com/bastanispeakers.htm

(2) We talked about ways Ron might strength the frame the speakers are built onto, also the tubes that reinforce the speakers. I am very concious that over damping might kill things and that speaker design is about harnessing and using resonances in the cabinet not just killing them. I am no speaker designer but I thought I identified a few things Ron might try structurally. However the running in and EQ issues need sorted first before anything else is changed.

All photos and text Copyright Adventures in High Fidelity Audio 2012

Ali Tait

09-09-2012, 20:16

Looks nice. Might be better trying a DCX2496 as it gives more flexibility.

DSJR

09-09-2012, 21:12

S'cuse me for stamping in here, but what frequency do the two large drivers cross over at? Maybe lowering this frequency may help a bit, so the middle driver works as near full range in the mid to mid/upper bass as possible.

One thing that makes it very difficult for speaker designers of all persuasions and expertise is in using a three way with the lower crossover right in the middle of the midrange. Even experts swear at perfecting this type of speaker and those that can't or won't do it make a huge noise about two ways being better, or just bodge away and still charge a fortune for it ;)

jandl100

09-09-2012, 21:15

John

09-09-2012, 21:16

Spectral Morn

09-09-2012, 21:21

Hey - it is nice to put a face to a name. Ron and I have swapped PMs on many an occasion! :)

Fab looking gear - those speakers look great!

And how did the Micromega CDT fare against Ron's computer audio doodads? Or was a direct comparison not done?

Personally I thought it was better but a comparison was not done. It was really the speakers I was there to hear. To clarify it was a transport feeding the DAC.

Spectral Morn

09-09-2012, 21:26

I hope Ron manages to sort out the issues I am not used to the 2496 so not really able to help around this, sounds like their might also be some room modes. A good place for Ron to start is use the same xover point as Vic, then check for room modes and compensate for these

I agree re room issues but the problem was that the speakers are not finished, the EQ is not set up right so trying to set the speakers up re their position in the room would have not yielded much - though I did move them slightly.

Clive

09-09-2012, 21:50

I'm reading this on my blackberry so I can't see the pics all in one go. The speakers will benefit from at least 80 cms open space to the side walls - the equipment rack may cause some reflection issues.

Spectral Morn

09-09-2012, 21:58

I'm reading this on my blackberry so I can't see the pics all in one go. I couldn't see the Bastani resistor across the wideband driver, if this is missing the speakers won't be operating as intended.

Over to you Ron.....

Clive

09-09-2012, 22:04

Over to you Ron.....
I saw it on closer inspection but my edit clashed with your reply, my comment on space at the sides still stands though.

John

10-09-2012, 07:15

Looking at the picture I think they might need a bit more space from the back wall. I have mine a meter away from rear walls

Spectral Morn

10-09-2012, 07:33

I saw it on closer inspection but my edit clashed with your reply, my comment on space at the sides still stands though.

I agree re more space. I asked Ron if he had pulled them clear of the back wall. He said he had but didn't hear much difference. I think that without them being finished and EQ set up, fine tuning by setting them up in the room is a waste of time as the course anomalies caused by the lack of proper EQ - Ron has tried but the unit that does this is pretty complex and requires an expert hand - and the structural aspects that need finished will swamp the room set up nullifying it.

Marco

10-09-2012, 08:27

Nice write-up and pics, Neil. An interesting system, too! Looks like you guys had a good time. I would encourage others to hold these types of bake-offs in their local area, as it's a good way of growing the community :cool:

Excellent stuff!

Marco.

falcoron

10-09-2012, 10:21

Thanks Neil and to everyone else, im in work presently but will reply to all the posts when i get home.
Ron

falcoron

10-09-2012, 19:21

Hey - it is nice to put a face to a name. Ron and I have swapped PMs on many an occasion! :)

Fab looking gear - those speakers look great!

And how did the Micromega CDT fare against Ron's computer audio doodads? Or was a direct comparison not done?

Hi Jerry, nice and face are not 2 words i usually hear mate but i know what you mean :lol:

thanks for the comments

falcoron

10-09-2012, 19:50

Ok,back home after work,
Firstly, i had a great evening and was sorry it ended, great music and honest comments are always welcome here. It is difficult to share stuff especially when its home made and not 100% finished yet. Its daunting having your pride and joy apraised with the chance they may get totally slated. A bit of work to do on the rear plinths,wiring and connections. Need to get my head around the EQ too as i dont have a clue and no matter what i read i can't get to grips with it. I really need help and someone who knows how to do this for me so i'm on the lookout ( anyone near please mail me)
The room is not perfect either there is a lot of stuff in there that hums along at times, but as i stated to Neil its a living room for a busy working family and my music is of interest to me only, no-one shares my tastes or passion so it difficult to get the time and space to really go to town, but i have a great wife who by and large gives me my space.
So positioning is something i will have to live with as these are big and dominate the room already. I have moved them about and didn't get any great change not enough for me to make the room a hi fi dem room where no-one can move around in. But will experiment more when i get them finished.
i have no doubt when i get these at their best they will be better than i've heard to date, i'm already very smitten with them and from time to time i play a track that just gels with these and its magical. So to the few that say OB can't do deep bass, Balls! they can, do and with more weight that most, controlling it is the issue.
I have an idea to make the bases from granite (the ply ones on now are temp only and not fixed as it where) so a bit of tweakery there. I may or may not mass load the tubing that will be down to the EQ i can get and the room correction, i think when i get these right i will have a special pair of speakers that will do justice to the work its taken and the cost, which was not cheap but very enjoyable to do and thats what matters in this old gloomy world isn't it?
thanks again to Neil for giving up a Friday night and travel over for a listen and for his gear he lugged over to.
Did the transport sound better than the SQ touch? yes it did, not massive but better all the same, i have a soft spot for Micromega top loaders as i once owned the fantastic but short lived Aria ref i bought new from Shadow Audio and was first in the contry to own it, still missed to this day. So to conclude if you have hankered after something different and want the satisfaction of doing it yourself start a pair of OB speakers you will never miss that boxey sound again. Glad i could share my work and system with so many.
Just to add these are now in place of my much adored and i do mean adored Living Voice Avatar II Nuff said!
Ron

MartinT

10-09-2012, 19:55

Its daunting having your pride and joy apraised with the chance they may get totally slated.

Amen to that, Ron. However I learned some years ago that honest input from other enthusiasts is extremely valuable and can often point you in a direction towards better sound. That and the camaraderie and sharing great music are what make these sessions so enjoyable for me.

Glad you and Neil enjoyed yours.

jandl100

10-09-2012, 20:13

Hi Jerry, nice and face are not 2 words i usually hear mate but i know what you mean :lol:

thanks for the comments

ha ha - yeah, well -- I didn't like to say anything .... :whistle: :eyebrows:

falcoron

10-09-2012, 20:33

ha ha - yeah, well -- I didn't like to say anything .... :whistle: :eyebrows:

you could get barred you know.:ner:

Clive

10-09-2012, 21:55

Need to get my head around the EQ
I've a splitting headache and a chest infection so I'll be brief! It's hard to type and cough at the same time....

You may or may not need EQ to help cure some resonances due to the room dimensions. Where you will need EQ is from around 63Hz downwards, adding around 6db. This is because the baffle is narrow so the bass tails off, adding 6db replaces the loss and prevents you needing a 4ft wide baffle.

Ali Tait

10-09-2012, 22:12

Yep, or add another woofer.

Clive

10-09-2012, 22:22

Yep, or add another woofer.
Ali, I understand where you're coming from but in this case the dipole bass driver is covering from 22hz to aound 100Hz, the 6db loss is only apparent below 63hz. The Bastani wideband driver is 100db efficient whereas the Neo bass drivers need a good amount of watts and their own amplification. I have 2 bass drivers per side myself.

falcoron

11-09-2012, 06:56

Clive

11-09-2012, 07:22

Thanks Clive,
1st and formost get to bed and get well mate.
Thanks Ron, I'm doing better now as the drugs have kicked in.

falcoron

11-09-2012, 07:28

Thanks Ron, I'm doing better now as the drugs have kicked in.

Great now get yer finger out stop feeling sorry and get my speakers sorted! :lol:

I have written to Vic to ask about the Behringer DSP amp he is using and see if that would be better for a numpty like me. If it is i will sell the DEQ and the pro amp and get one.
Watch this space :eek:

falcoron

14-09-2012, 09:58

Ali, I understand where you're coming from but in this case the dipole bass driver is covering from 22hz to aound 100Hz, the 6db loss is only apparent below 63hz. The Bastani wideband driver is 100db efficient whereas the Neo bass drivers need a good amount of watts and their own amplification. I have 2 bass drivers per side myself.

No need for another bass driver ali im getting too much bass as it is.
Clive the Seleniums are 99db so these are easy to drive too.
I have taken the pill and bought the berhinger NU1000dsp with inuke.
Vic has sent me the settings for the 1 bass driver version so i will at least get the integration with the wide band and the neo's that was missing. Then i can get the room sorted with the settings. I can do this in real time from my laptop in the sitting position according to vic so lets see how a complete technophobe gets on, but at least i have all the settings for the bass to work properly in this set up. Also just found out from a pro amp expert the reasom my amp was humming was the rca connections are wrong and he said i need to get the proper ones and this will be as quite as the grave, But i have no need of it now so selling on. the qed pro curve which is a great bit of kit but waaaaay over my head has also been sold to jerry on here,
Will let you know how i get on with the new dsp amp and am waiting by my window for delivery
Ron

Clive

14-09-2012, 10:20

Hi Ron, I'm sure you'll find the iNuke much easier to work with and in real-time too.

Re the 99db Seleniums.....yes they are 99db but once you stick them in an open baffle you get a lot of cancellation from the rear wall so you don't achieve 99db efficiency. Hence the 6db boost needed below 63Hz.

falcoron

14-09-2012, 13:58

Yeah i saw that on the settings Vic has sent, should make a great difference. Not coming today though. Will be monday i hope. So cant play at the moment.

falcoron

21-10-2012, 20:46

Just in case anyone was wondering about this project, i now have the inuke amp in place and the settings sent from Vic dialled in, also rewired the speakers and decoupled them from the floor with adjustable cones which has allowed me to set the baffles level and more upright than before, think the slope backwards didnt help the sound at all, then added 2 granite plinths the the rear. All i can do is say WOW! what a different pair of speakers i now have, intergration between the mid and bass is seamless, bass is tight and deep without any bloom or room boom ( lot of 0's there!) Adding the Hovland pre to this heady mix only made things a great deal better the seperation and soundstage have opened up significantly and although hard to tell if the revamp had a big part to play or the pre is doing all this on its own i cant be sure but its more likely to be both. Either way im not bothered as this works so well now so im as happy as a pig is muck.
Im seriously overwhelmed,delighted and well bloody chuffed as chuffed can be.
Its been a long journey and one i would do over without hessitation i would encourage others to try this once in their hi fi travels, if you do and you get it right i think you may well find as i did there is nothing in a box that comes close.
Anyone that can is very welcome to come hear these.
cheers