View Full Version : Apple Airport Express v ATV2
TopBalcony
06-09-2012, 19:19
Has anyone compared the merits of these two?
I've read that the ATV is not bit perfect (it upsamples to 16/48), but the AE is (at least up to 16/44). Does this make any discernible difference?
I've been looking at alternatives now the end of the SBT is nigh, and been using LMS > ipeng (as player) > airplay > atv2. It sounds brilliant, on the same level as the SBT, and also means I can stream directly from the Spotify app on my ipad and even youtube (HD of course!).
I'm using a Rega dac, which reclocks and therefore probably disguises any sins in the source.
I appreciate that airplay only permits streaming at 16/44 but that is not a concern for me.
Hi John,
Apple Airport Express v ATV2
Has anyone compared the merits of these two?
No, I haven't, but I'd like to.
BTW, I don't think that there are many Apple fans here.
I have an ATV2 myself and have recently compared the SQ and usability to my new Windows-based music player. See here for details: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20124
My conclusion was that the ATV gave a good account of itself, especially when you compare the relative costs (£99 vs £380).
Have you compared the ATV with the SBT? What did you think?
Since I've set up my PC music player, I've not felt the urge to switch on the ATV, which speaks volumes. It's still in circuit (using the DAC in my TV for sound) but it will probably only get used only occasionally now.
Cheers,
I can make a small comparison this weekend if you'd like. I do, however, only have access to the ATV 3 and the second gen AE...
Regards
/Mike
Have you seen the prices that the ATV2 fetch on ebay (up to £280 for a new one, £200 for used)?
I'm tempted to sell mine.
I've read that the ATV is not bit perfect (it upsamples to 16/48), but the AE is (at least up to 16/44). Does this make any discernible difference?
Don't touch anything that resamples with a barge pole IMHO ;)
...or anything with a piece of fruit as a logo :lol:
There'll be plenty of SB capable players available shortly, a small linux box running SqueezePlay or some equivalent...I can already run SqueezePlay on my phone, just need android to expose the USB and I could use that for bit perfect streaming :)
Whats so special about th 2:nd version?
/Mike
Whats so special about th 2:nd version?
/Mike
The new one cant be jailbroken (yet), which means you can't add extra software, play FLACs etc.
Don't touch anything that resamples with a barge pole IMHO ;)
...or anything with a piece of fruit as a logo :lol:
There'll be plenty of SB capable players available shortly, a small linux box running SqueezePlay or some equivalent...I can already run SqueezePlay on my phone, just need android to expose the USB and I could use that for bit perfect streaming :)
See what I mean...?
Unlike most people who slag off the product, I have actually sat down and listened to it. And it sounds very good indeed for the money.
Cheers,
The new one cant be jailbroken (yet), which means you can't add extra software, play FLACs etc.
And to be quite honest; Why would one such a stupid thing? ;)
I mean, the reason for buying Apple products is the fact that they work good, look good and requires very little fecking around with? :scratch:
Fixing what aint broken is for Linux people... :ner:
/Mike
Enjoy your proprietary world gentlemen...:cool:
TopBalcony
07-09-2012, 11:46
Thanks for the replies.
I'm not much of an Apple fan myself, despite the fact that I've got an Ipad and ATV2 (both jailbroken on principle!). The advantage of using ipeng on the ipad is that I can play all my flacs etc via the ATV2 and without going near itunes.
I was surprised that I'm finding it hard to tell the sq of ATV apart from the SBT. Will do more listening at the weekend. The SBT has EDO installed and an upgraded PS.
Martin, I read your thread with interest. I suspect a lot is to do with the interaction of the source with the dac - and maybe the Rega and Bushmaster behave differently in this context
I was surprised that I'm finding it hard to tell the sq of ATV apart from the SBT. Will do more listening at the weekend. The SBT has EDO installed and an upgraded PS.
All anti apple views aside...;)
For me I suppose the biggest advantage of the touch with EDO is the ability to output via USB to my M-DAC (asynchronous USB).
I also notice a difference with the SBT if I use any of the following, volume control, replaygain, or crossfade, as any of the 3 will also result in resampling, and therefore not bit perfect.
The M-Dac is very useful for 'analysing' the incoming digital signal, and checking for a bit perfect source...:)
Enjoy your proprietary world gentlemen...:cool:
Not wanting to get into a bun fight, but the reason I got rid of my SB was the need to use their proprietary server software. Maybe that's changed, but at the time, it was the only option. I had/have a NAS with built in uPnP server and installing Squeeze Server wasn't possible.
Cheers,
Not wanting to get into a bun fight
Martin, no bun fight here, all with tongue slightly in cheek...I wouldn't say anything on here that I wouldn't say to my mates ;)
But I do think that resampling whether via the SBT or ATV/AE is something to avoid...if possible
Thanks for the replies.
I'm not much of an Apple fan myself, despite the fact that I've got an Ipad and ATV2 (both jailbroken on principle!). The advantage of using ipeng on the ipad is that I can play all my flacs etc via the ATV2 and without going near itunes.
I was surprised that I'm finding it hard to tell the sq of ATV apart from the SBT. Will do more listening at the weekend. The SBT has EDO installed and an upgraded PS.
Martin, I read your thread with interest. I suspect a lot is to do with the interaction of the source with the dac - and maybe the Rega and Bushmaster behave differently in this context
This is all interesting stuff John.
So, you are playing FLACs stored on your iPad and playing them to the ATV via airplay and it sounds the same as an upgraded SBT?
It would be interesting to try this at home and see how it compares with my PC/JRiver/V-Link.
Maybe we should all meet up somewhere to compare all these options?
No problem Will, I just get annoyed when people say that it's sh!t because it's from that manufacturer. At least I have an open mind about these things:)
The oversampling thing is maybe the main problem with it for critical listening. Maybe its a DAC thing, but I doubt it. Certainly with my Bushmaster, I could hear much more detail from my PC/V-Link. I can't recall why the ATV is oversampled - maybe something to do with the video streaming? :scratch:
The M-Dac is very useful for 'analysing' the incoming digital signal, and checking for a bit perfect source...:)
Now I'm interested. How can you analyse the incoming signal with the M-DAC? Sounds like an interesting bit of kit.
Cheers,
Now I'm interested. How can you analyse the incoming signal with the M-DAC? Sounds like an interesting bit of kit.
Cheers,
R.E. The M-DAC...
The first advantage is that it will show you the 'absolute' bit depth/frequency of the incoming signal, so 16/44.100 (that's the limit of its precision, well on the display anyway) is what I was looking for when I first connected up my SB receiver to it.
Much to my dismay it was showing anywhere between 17/44.100 and 24/44.100, this turned out to be caused by RepayGain and/or crossfade.
With that off I managed to get 16/44.100 (with a coax connection this oscillates between 16/44.100 & 16/44.101, perhaps jitter :scratch:)
One can set the display to 'nominal' to stop the display refresh, and it simply reads 16/44.1.
Since moving to an SBT (with EDO), and using the asynchronous USB connection it sits steady at 16/44.100, which makes sense as it's now in charge of the data.
The icing on the cake is the 'Bit Perfect Test', which requires a download of a predefined set of WAV files, which are then compared to the same samples stored locally on the M-Dac...
http://wikkii.org/wiki/M-DAC#Bitperfect_test
...a function on the M-Dac itself initiates this comparison test.
I suppose regardless of cost, or manufacturer, if any device can achieve a bit-perfect USB feed into the M-DAC then I think that's probably about as good as one can get...well apart from the USB cable & USB isolator, I've also added...but that's more OCD on my part, and I doubt I could tell the difference with or without ;)
The oversampling thing is maybe the main problem with it for critical listening. Maybe its a DAC thing, but I doubt it. Certainly with my Bushmaster, I could hear much more detail from my PC/V-Link. I can't recall why the ATV is oversampled - maybe something to do with the video streaming? :scratch:
Probably the same thinking as with the dreaded 'Windows K-mixer', it also resamples everything to 48k too, in order to keep things in sych with video audio
Sounds like a marvellous bit of kit Will. Definitely on my shopping list for the next upgrade.
I love the sound of my Bushmaster, but the input switching side of it could be better IMHO.
Sounds like a marvellous bit of kit Will. Definitely on my shopping list for the next upgrade.
I'm very happy with mine, it can seem a little complex at times what with all the different configurations/settings/firmware upgrades etc. but it gives me something to dabble with ;)
One thing I would say is that it really comes into its own when used as a pre-amp too. To this end I bought one of Stan's RCA routers (very good it is too), which allows me to switch from my analogue pre 8000Q (for TT and AV), and the M-DAC pre for digital. I tried using it just as a DAC, and whilst it's still very good I had to go back to using it as a pre-too. :)
TopBalcony
07-09-2012, 15:54
So, you are playing FLACs stored on your iPad and playing them to the ATV via airplay and it sounds the same as an upgraded SBT?
Hi Martin, no the flacs are stored on a USB drive attached to a netbook upstairs. LMS is running on the netbook, and the files are streamed via my Ipad to the ATV2. I think that Ipeng converts to ALAC, but am not sure about this. Anyway, it all works seemlessly.
I'll probably pick up an Airport Express at the w/end and then hopefully do some more listening comparisons.
Im using ipeng SB/ touch with LMS running on my notebook. When it works its great but it doesnt always. I recently bought ATV to stream spotify and itunes not realizing my ipod touch is to old to use airplay :doh:
Hi Martin, no the flacs are stored on a USB drive attached to a netbook upstairs. LMS is running on the netbook, and the files are streamed via my Ipad to the ATV2. I think that Ipeng converts to ALAC, but am not sure about this. Anyway, it all works seemlessly.
I'll probably pick up an Airport Express at the w/end and then hopefully do some more listening comparisons.
Hmmm...
Seems like a bit of a convoluted route for the tunes to get through unscathed :scratch:
Ideally you would want the net book to stream direct to the player, with the tablet just controlling the setup. I'm sure it works, but it seems a bit complicated to me.
Did some quick comparisons today between Marantz NA7004 in AirPlay mode, the Apple TV (3:rd gen) and theApple Airport Express (2:nd gen).
As discussed earlier the ATV sends optical data out in 48Khz format where the AE stays with 44.1Khz. From what i've read in Apple's WhitePapers on AirPlay, audio is transcoded into Apple lossless format on the fly, and decoded in the AirPlay reciever. I would like to say that the format of the Apple Lossless stream is dependant upon reciever type, but i cannot say for sure.
I had some different tunes for comparison and the results were:
Airport Express: Sounds quite good with most music, with some heft and good bottom end. A little constrained perhaps, and a little loss of "air" and resolution.
Apple TV: Loses some dynamics and heft when compared to the AE, less resolving and even smaller sound stage. Did sound clearly better with one particular track, Rush - Seven Cities of Gold from Clockwork Angels. This particular track is a High Res download from HDTracks in 24/96 and i suspect the reason maybe downsampling in even numbers.
Marantz NA7004: there is no contest here, this sounds best of all the AirPlay solutions. Rock steady performance with clean mids and less grain than the previous ones. Great resolution, space between the musicians and relays a descent prtrayal of the recording situation. Could easily live with this as a source!
As a reference i played the same songs from my MacMini with Amarra 2.4 using the optical output for this particular comparison. The Mac is configured for optimal audio playback.
This does sound clearly more resolving, still relaxed and non obtrusive. Dynamics are better, the 'air' on the stage is clearly present and it's easy to "see" the musicians on stage. Bass is clean an powerful, not muddy.
Undoubtedly the best audio in this comparison!
The differences described here are quite easily heard, though none of the options sound bad or would be unacceptable to my ears.
I used the Marantz optical input for all comparisons so they are all using the same DAC.
Regards Mike
Hi Mike,
Great report. Pretty much mirrors my own findings between ATV and my PC.
Interesting to hear that you use the Marantz streamer/DAC. how do you find it? I'm looking for something that will work as a preamp/dac in my system and had only found the Audiolab m-dac up until now.
Cheers,
Hi Martin and thanks! :)
:offtopic:
Yes, I use the Marantz NA7004 Network Audio Player and i think its a great piece of kit (yes, kit... ;))
What it is not however, is a preamp... It has got no analog inputs (unless you count antennas) but a multitude of digital options.
I feed the signal on to my Marantz SC-11S1 pre via RCA IC's.
But you dont need the volume, do you?
:ontopic:
The Marantz is imo the very best AirPlay renderer of the ones I've heard. And that includes a couple of Micromega units also. (Have only heard them at shows though)
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