View Full Version : Marco's Mains Madness - unleashing the Furukawa Beast!
Mark's coming on Wedsnesday to hard-wire a heavy-duty 'Furukawa beast' (for my copper amp), same as yours, to the mains junction box, powering my system. It'll do away with a 13A fuse and plug, and thus will hopefully help the amp to draw more current, when the music demands! :cool:
We've just finished doing this, and are listening now to some music... FOOKIN' ELL...!!!
:wowzer: :wowzer: :wow: :wow: :rock: :rock: :hairmetal: :hairmetal: :wowzer: :wowzer:
:laugh: :laugh:
Marco.
RobbieGong
05-09-2012, 19:41
:lol: You're nuts Marco :lol:
Yersss, well, put it this way: It certainly has "ensured maximum current capability, necessary for instant transient response...", as Anthony said it would!!
:D :D :exactly:
I've just found out from Mark that this thing has a 5.27mm conductor core!! 'Chunky' doesn't even begin to describe it...! :eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
MikeMusic
06-09-2012, 07:13
We've just finished doing this, and are listening now to some music...
Marco.
Come on don't sit on the fence. What was it like ?
And when can I have one ?
:)
Wakefield Turntables
06-09-2012, 09:36
Yersss, well, put it this way: It certainly has "ensured maximum current capability necessary for instant transient response...", as Anthony said it would!!
:D :D :exactly:
I've just found out from Mark that this thing has a 5.27mm conductor core!! 'Chunky' doesn't even begin to describe it...! :eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Can we have some photos cos I'm having difficulty in seeing how this thing is wired up.
:scratch:
MikeMusic
06-09-2012, 09:39
Can we have some photos cos I'm having difficulty in seeing how this thing is wired up.
:scratch:
Massive great python like cable goes into hole in the wall
:)
I'll take some pics tonight, chaps, and post them. Andrew, it's just an extra heavy-duty solid-core mains cable, from Furukawa - this stuff:
http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/power_cord/pg466.html
It says 2.6mm, but it's squared, or something (can remember the explanation for how the final diameter is calculated), but when actually measured by the normal method, the core is 5.27mm thick!
I'll ask Mark to explain how the diameter of the cable is calculated in 'British money', when he gets back. But, this stuff just sounds so bloody awesome, words fail me!! :eek:
Once it's fully burnt in, I'll review it on another thread.
Marco.
brian2957
06-09-2012, 09:50
Proof , I think , Marco that just when you thought you'd got the mains right there's always another improvement to be had . Does Mark sell this stuff or did he have to buy it in specially for this project .
MikeMusic
06-09-2012, 09:53
Once it's fully burnt in
Marco.
!
Not even reached full potential then
(I assumed it was a conversion)
Big sea change coming in lots of houses I think
sq225917
06-09-2012, 10:03
Numpty, the wire is 2.Whatever mm diameter, you are quoting cross sectional area...
Yes, sorry, wrong terminology, but the end result is that this stuff is chunky with a capital 'Ch'!
Pics to follow, ASAP :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
06-09-2012, 10:25
Is this total cross sectional area for all conductors ????
Hi Brian,
Proof , I think , Marco that just when you thought you'd got the mains right there's always another improvement to be had.
Indeed. The truth is, there's always something to do with the mains, but you have to stop sometime. This heavier-duty Furukawa stuff was brought to my attention, and so I thought 'fuck it, why not?' :D
However, I'm just going to use it on the power amp, which due to the positioning of everything, I can successfully hard-wire into my junction box, but it's too stiff and ungainly to use as mains leads for the rest of my gear, where the smaller (2mm) version of the same cable is currently in use.
The bigger stuff is really designed for 'in wall' use, supplying a CU/dedicated mains spur, from the incoming mains supply. I use 25mm² armoured cable already for that job! :eyebrows:
Does Mark sell this stuff or did he have to buy it in specially for this project .
Both. He can order it, so he sells it! It's only sold to order, though :)
Marco.
Is this total cross sectional area for all conductors ????
The answer is, Andrew, I don't know. The technicalities don't really interest me; simply the end result. Best to ask Mark, or David (from MCRU) who sells the same cable.
Marco.
brian2957
06-09-2012, 10:43
Thanks Marco . The truth is that every time I've 'upgraded ' my mains set up there's been an improvement , sometimes for just a little money . These are fundamental improvements in SQ which cannot be achieved any other way.
The Furukawa 2.6 cable is incredibly thick, as you say Marco. I don't know how Mark got it into the Furutech plug but the first thing I discovered is that I had to completely disconnect it to replace the fuse with a Hi-Fi Tuning fuse. Absolute nightmare getting the plug cover on again.
It *is* rather like having a python going into the wall, and just as resistant to bending :eek:
It is solid core UP-OCC copper, each conductor is 2.6mm diameter. It is an in wall cable for wiring dedicated mains spurs, reason I know so much about it is I was the first person to sell it in the UK and still do.
Marco you had the 2mm version already installed didn't you that you got off me a year or so ago? So is the extra 0.6mm that much better? It's exactly the same cable you got off me but slightly thicker.
It sounds better when it has been cryo treated too although you are probably having an orgasm with it as it is. :)
Incoming SWA 25mm² armoured cable (coming from CU downstairs, where mains comes into the house), shown at the bottom of the junction box. Furukawa cables, feeding my Copper valve power amp and mains block, are coming out from the top, all hard-wired inside:
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8837/img1770ke.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/684/img1770ke.jpg/)
Apologies for the rather crude wooden board that the junction box is screwed onto. There used to be a 6-way Memera CU, fitted onto the board, hiding it, which has now been removed and replaced with the junction box. The wooden support is needed to give the junction box something to bite into, and to stop the mega-stiff, infexible, armoured cable from pulling the whole lot out, had the junction box been screwed directly onto the wall!
What the junction box looks like inside:
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/3617/boisdrqbwkkgrhqyokiqeud.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/boisdrqbwkkgrhqyokiqeud.jpg/)
Simply insert the live, neutral and earth wires from the incoming mains supply, into the terminals at one end (in my case, from the armoured cable), and then hard-wire whatever kit you want to power, the same way, at the other end. Nice and simple, and very direct! :)
Showing back of system and Furukawa cable, from power amp to junction box (cable is not touching the wall, although it looks like that from this angle):
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/7223/img1774r.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/img1774r.jpg/)
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/1892/img1779u.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/img1779u.jpg/)
The back of the system, showing Mark Grant G2000HD interconnects, with Eichmann (polymer) Silver-Bullet plugs, Yannis Tome 423.5 Phono Silver Litz tonearm cable and 223.5 Connect-Litz interconnects (both with aluminium-bodied Eichmann Silver-Bullet plugs), the latter from my SUT to preamp/phono stage. Also, Oyaide FTVS-510 digital cable, with WBT 0110ag RCAs. Observe the perfect cable-dressing! ;)
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5134/img1777bo.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/img1777bo.jpg/)
Assorted mains leads, with modified Mark Grant mains block and Anthony TD's Tube Distinctions digital noise mains filter:
http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/740/img1772o.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/img1772o.jpg/)
Write-up of how it's all sounding to follow! :cool:
Marco.
brian2957
06-09-2012, 19:03
Yup looks pretty mad to me:lol:. Bet it sounds fantastic ;) What sockets are you using in the mains blocks Marco.
Hi David,
Marco you had the 2mm version already installed didn't you that you got off me a year or so ago? So is the extra 0.6mm that much better? It's exactly the same cable you got off me but slightly thicker.
Yup, it's likely that the removal of a 13A plug and fuse (with the cable being hard-wired into the junction box, rather than plugged into the mains block, as it had been before), is responsible for the biggest improvement!! :eek: ;)
I also notice that the transformers in my power amp, which are prone to buzzing, from DC interference, are running much more quietly than before. That certainly says something, in terms of the noise reduction gained, through lowering the impedance on my mains supply.
It sounds better when it has been cryo treated too although you are probably having an orgasm with it as it is.
Lol... I can believe it, as I've heard the effect before with valves. One for the future, maybe!
Marco.
Yup looks pretty mad to me:lol:. Bet it sounds fantastic ;) What sockets are you using in the mains blocks Marco.
Furutech (whatever), can't remember the model number.
Cheers, dude - it does indeed sound (very) fantastic! :eyebrows:
Marco.
(cable is not touching the wall, although it looks like that from this angle):
Yea, cos if it was the whole thing would sound like shite:lol::lol:
Hehehe... Well, it would sound worse, anyway (trust me)! :D
Marco.
brian2957
06-09-2012, 19:12
I'm awaiting delivery of one of the Furutech gold plated mains plugs to fit on the end of my home -built mains block . Hoping for a further improvement . May consider re-wiring the block with some of the Furukawa mains cable based on what you are posting here Marco.
You can see from this pic that the flex for the mains block is also Furukawa cable, and the whole of the (star-wired) internal cable inside the block is, too! Obviously stripped back, with the outer sheathing and other coverings removed.
http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/740/img1772o.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/img1772o.jpg/)
Marco.
brian2957
06-09-2012, 19:23
Bloody hell , you don't do it by halves mate :lol: Given me another option for improving my block though :eyebrows:
Hehehe... If you look closely, you'll see that the filter is wired with it, too! ;)
Marco.
brian2957
06-09-2012, 19:47
Okay Okay I get the idea :ner:
As they say, in for a penny, in for a pound... ;)
You asked earlier, Brian, about the sockets on the mains block. They are single (Rhodium) versions of the Furutech FP-1363s (to match my FI-1363 13A mains plugs), as shown on David's website:
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-wall-sockets/198-furutech-fp-1363d-uk-wall-socket.html
As you can probably tell, I've spent a small fortune on all this stuff (you could assemble a nice high-end system on what I've spent alone on optimising my mains set-up), but IME, when you get to this level, I believe that it's fundamentally important to have the right system 'infrastructure' in place, and that means paying suitable attention to the mains, cables and supports, just as much as the boxes! :)
Marco.
Marco, l have to ask the question- are you ok?
Of course not! :lol:
:lolsign:
Marco.
Mark Grant
06-09-2012, 22:09
Sockets also available here :D
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_74&products_id=259&zenid=m67benqd99naulib4i79i22997
If I remember correctly I fitted them and internally rewired the mains block all to the highest standards :)
Indeed you did! And what a difference that made, too...!! Sorry about that. I guess that the sockets are available from both of you guys ;)
Glad you got back safely, mate. It was a pleasure having you round again, and many thanks for all your work :cool:
Marco.
The Black Adder
06-09-2012, 22:15
Fwoookin chuffin norah! :) Marco... mate that is mental cable. Well bloody done man, superb!
Now we have decided to stay where we are I'd like to get a dedicated mains put in but need a cable that is cheap but will give me an improvement over the ring main.
I think I need about 5-6meters of the stuff.. With your experience can you recommend anything?
daytona600
06-09-2012, 22:20
Marco want to try some power cords in your system
Lessloss DFPC Dynamic filter power cord massive construction with gold plated furutech FI-UK-NI G 13amp plug
& Gold plated Oyiade 079 Iec Inlet with a Lessloss Firewall Power conditioner / filter made from panzerwood & carbon fibre
7175
7176
www.snaudio.co.uk
www.lessloss.com
Hi Joe,
I'd recommend the SWA armoured cable that I use to supply my junction box, coming from the main CU, as shown in the first picture. I think the 10mm² or 16mm² cable would do you fine, though. The stuff I use is just for mental cases! :D
The armoured cable (same stuff as used for meter tails in consumer units) is cheap as chips, sounds superb, and available from any good wholesale electrical supplier, such as CEF, Edmundson, etc :)
Do you have somewhere like that local to you?
Marco.
Hi Scott,
Marco want to try some power cords in your system
Lessloss DFPC Dynamic filter power cord massive construction with gold plated furutech FI-UK-NI G 13amp plug
& Gold plated Oyiade 079 Iec Inlet with a Lessloss Firewall Power conditioner / filter made from panzerwood & carbon fibre
Thanks for the kind offer. I'll bear it in mind. At the moment, however, I just want to get used to the recent changes I've made, without confusing matters :)
Hope you're doing well with your cables, though. They look awesome! :cool:
Marco.
The Black Adder
06-09-2012, 22:28
Hi Joe,
I'd recommend the SWA armoured cable that I use to supply my junction box, coming from the main CU, as shown in the first picture. I think the 10 or 16mm diameter stuff would do you fine, though. The stuff I use is just for no-hope mental cases! :D
The armoured cable (same stuff as used for meter tails in consumer units) is cheap as chips, sounds superb and is available from any good wholesale electrical supplier, such as CEF, Edmundson, etc :)
Do you have somewhere like that local to you?
Marco.
Cheers Marco.. Only place is B&Q and Wickes. I think there is a specialist place though.. will find out.
Cheers dude - top system :cool:
No worries, cheers. Unfortunately, you won't get that stuff from the likes of B&Q or Wickes. It needs to be from the kind of places that the trade mainly use. Here are store locator links for both CEF and Edmundson:
http://www.edmundson-electrical.co.uk/storelocator.php And: http://www.cef.co.uk/branches
An example of the sort of stuff I'm talking about: http://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/categories/11091-swa-xlpe-insulated-pvc-sheath-6945x-5-core
I'll give you a shout when I'm free, and pop down for a listen to your new Lockies! :cool:
Marco.
daytona600
06-09-2012, 23:14
firewall & dfpc ultra audio select component
www.ultraaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=137
Hi Scott,
Thanks for the kind offer. I'll bear it in mind. At the moment, however, I just want to get used to the recent changes I've made, without confusing matters :)
Hope you're doing well with your cables, though. They look awesome! :cool:
Marco.
* Post Removed as confusion cleared up by Scott (Daytona600) *
The Grand Wazoo
07-09-2012, 07:47
I have to agree with Alex, if you simply read the conclusion, you'll see the following:
...the likes of Nordost Valhalla or Furutech Powerflux will easily defend their prices, because the contribution they make cannot be achieved by other means.
(Their words not mine, I'd sooner drink a pint of camel saliva than use Nordost products!)
brian2957
07-09-2012, 08:18
One hump or two :cool:
Yup, it's important to get the facts right, and it seems to read the way that Alex and Chris have said :)
Scott, whilst I know that you're very enthusiastic about selling your stuff, as you've just started a new business, you need to cool it a bit, in terms of the 'hard sell', as at the moment your enthusiasm is getting the better of you! ;)
Just calm it down a bit, mate, and be more selective about where you promote your goods, and a bit less pushy, and you'll be fine :cool:
Marco.
(Their words not mine, I'd sooner drink a pint of camel saliva than use Nordost products!)
Mmm... Camel spit. Tasty, but not a patch on wombat wee!
Marco.
daytona600
07-09-2012, 12:15
Sorry guys for the incorrect information on the above post I have ammended the post
Ok, now that the hilarity has ended, it's time to get down to just what this cable does for a hi-fi system....
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9646/furukawa26mmcable.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/515/furukawa26mmcable.jpg/)
Well, let's first of all look at what the manufacturer claims (source: http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/power_cord/pg466.html )
EE/F-S 2.6 consists of 2.6mm PCOCC-A conductors which have a 600V 30A capacity, halogen-free sheathing developed specifically for audio applications, copper foil shielding and the drain wire for easy wire connection. It has demonstrated 30dB superiority in noise protection over standard indoor cable.
Normally, advertising blurb is full of pseudo-science gobbledygook, designed to amaze the gullible and impressionable, so one simply sifts through the bull and cherry-picks the bits which make some sense, and I have to say that Furukawa's claims, regarding noise protection/reduction, certainly appear to translate into 'real world' subjective listening.
I can't question the measurements, but my goodness, this is one subjectively very 'quiet' cable, as after having installed it, when playing music, the normal perceived noise-floor of your system appears as vastly reduced, and so, conversely, does the system's resolution and ability to unravel musical information on recordings, particularly the subtle nuances, textures and inflections, which make recorded music sound real.
Now, I'm not going spout the usual audiophile flim-flam of music emerging from an 'inky blackness', as you all know where I'm coming from here. That kind of stuff is churned out continually, to the point where it has become virtually meaningless, and so to use it to describe the effect of the superb Furukawa would be to grossly dilute its efficacy.
Therefore, instead, I'll liken the difference to accurately tuning in a station on the radio...
If you've owned a decent, manually operated, analogue tuner, with an accurate signal meter, and have used it with a proper outside aerial (as I have, and still do), you'll know the difference in listening to a live musical broadcast when you've succeeded in fine tuning the station, in order that background noise is reduced to a minimum, and consequently, when the sound 'snaps into focus'; in effect, you've found the 'sweet spot' where the acoustic, surrounding the performance, seems more real and the natural ambience of the studio is captured to greater effect.
With other mains cables I've used, the noise-floor is akin to that when one is just outside of that sweet spot, and so whilst generally the music sounds very good, when under more critical scrutiny, the sound is still a little diffuse and not quite 'in focus', as it should be. With the Furukawa, the noise-floor is reduced to such a dramatic extent that it almost sounds as if there is none, and exactly like it should, when one is smack in the centre of that sweet spot! :)
It's probably a difficult thing to appreciate, if you've never experienced that effect before with live music on radio, reproduced through a top-notch hi-fi system, but it's the difference between being genuinely able to suspend disbelief, in terms of experiencing an actual live musical event, and feeling in your very bones, the emotion being expressed by musicians performing their art, the effect of which on one's appreciation of the performance is utterly mesmeric, instead of a somewhat hazy and ill-defined substitute of such.
Now, when you can also transfer that effect, as far as possible to when reproducing recorded music on CD or vinyl, simply because the use of the Furukawa cable, powering your system throughout, ensures that the vanishingly low noise-floor created benefits all music sources, then you've got something very special indeed. This is not simply frivolous 'audiophile tweakery', but fundamental to any notion of a high-end system reproducing genuinely believable music, as opposed to simply an 'impressive noise'! :exactly:
Combine that with the ability of the Furukawa to allow your system to reproduce 'whip-crack' dynamics, when the music demands, with such intensity that it makes you blink, sphincter-tight bass, with seismic impact and extension, vocals which sound sonorous, beautifully layered and uncannily believable, and a top end which is filigree-detailed, sweeter than honey and yet suitably revealing and incisive, all as a result of the Furukawa's remarkable reducing of the underlying system noise-floor, and in turn, the ability of your system to maintain the integrity of the music signal, and you have something that is more than merely a cable: it acts as an artery that allows recorded music to become an almost tangible entity, and thus is a mandatory system addition for all serious audiophiles and music-lovers.
My advice?
If you have a system that you think deserves the Furukawa treatment, and you want to experience what I have with your favourite music, then contact Mark Grant, A.S.A.P, and place your order! It's that simple.
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/
Marco.
I'd sooner drink a pint of camel saliva than use Nordost products
Me too. I still remember their El Dorado cable with a shudder. It was about as successful as the TV series of the same name.
Sorry guys for the incorrect information on the above post I have ammended the post
No problem, Scott :)
Marco.
Dingdong
07-09-2012, 13:01
Me too. I still remember their El Dorado cable with a shudder. It was about as successful as the TV series of the same name.
I liked the tv series.
Seriously? I'm shocked. I thought it was one load of pish, on a par with the likes of 'Benidorm' and other such mindless drivel.
It should've been strangled at birth with a Furukawa mains cable! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I was going to mention Albion Market, but I'm worried that my small intestines will rise up through my oesophagus and throttle m.... :eek:
Albion Market? Never heard of it. I guess it was quality? :)
Marco.
Albion Market? Never heard of it. I guess it was quality? :)
Marco.
Lets just say it was not as good as Eastenders...
Lets just say it was not as good as Eastenders...
And that is setting the bar really high... :lol:
Albion Market? Never heard of it.
You don't know how lucky you are... :D
Ali Tait
08-09-2012, 10:18
Fwoookin chuffin norah! :) Marco... mate that is mental cable. Well bloody done man, superb!
Now we have decided to stay where we are I'd like to get a dedicated mains put in but need a cable that is cheap but will give me an improvement over the ring main.
I think I need about 5-6meters of the stuff.. With your experience can you recommend anything?
Joe, I'm on holiday this week, but should be able to "acquire" some when I'm back next week. Yours for the cost of postage.
The Black Adder
08-09-2012, 12:47
Joe, I'm on holiday this week, but should be able to "acquire" some when I'm back next week. Yours for the cost of postage.
Cheers matey.. cool... very kind of you.
I have realised however that as well as a 6m run from the CU to the socket I will need an additional length as a return back to the CU but I'll take it if it's going matey.
PM me when you have a spare minute and let me know what you can do, cheers n beers! :cool:
Reid Malenfant
08-09-2012, 19:07
Hmmm, while I won't be installing Furutech cable, all this bodes some serious goodness in the sound stakes when I upgrade from the 2.5mm twin & earth in my present spur to what I will be using :D
10mm² for the power amplifiers & 6mm² for the front end kit including the PS Audio PPP :eyebrows:
The thing is though, the whole lot will be inside a stainless steel flexible conduit, so it'll be nicely screened to.
You aren't the only mad one round here Marco :cool:
Nice move, dude. However, I'd use the SWA cable from CEF (or Edmunsons), or if Ali has got any more of his stuff spare he'll let you have, as the bog-standard T&E that's sold now in most home DIY stores is pish.
It's made from very poor quality copper, mass-produced in China. The stuff I'm talking about is made by Doncaster cable, in the UK, and a different ball-game entirely, trust me ;)
Marco.
Mr Kipling
08-09-2012, 19:20
This is my idea of a real man's mains cable: something you can get your hands round. How would you like that up the back of your (copper) amp, Marco?
Burnt that jumper in yet? Bit more less constrained and resticted now?
Latest creation from Yannis. (Sorry for the drift.)
My, that's a fat one! Mmm... Suits you sir... :eyebrows:
Are you local?
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
08-09-2012, 19:35
Nice move, dude. However, I'd use the SWA cable from CEF (or Edmunsons), or if Ali has got any more of his stuff spare he'll let you have, as the bog-standard T&E that's sold now in most home DIY stores is pish.
It's made from very poor quality copper, mass-produced in China. The stuff I'm talking about is made by Doncaster cable, in the UK, and a different ball-game entirely, trust me ;)
Marco.
Ah, it's not twin & earth I'll be using ;) I'll be using much better & higher current rating Tri Rated cable with individual conductors. It's specifically designed to run in conduits & for use in panel wiring.
As an example 6mm twin & earth is rated at about 36A, the Tri Rated stuff I'll be using is rated at 53A for the same cross sectional area :)
Much better cable :cool:
Ah, soz, dude. When you just said 6mm² and 10mm², I presumed that you meant T&E...
The other stuff sounds like proper quality! :cool:
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
08-09-2012, 19:43
:lol: No worries, it's easy to jump to the wrong conclusions...
Well, without the full information at any rate :cool:
brian2957
08-09-2012, 20:29
Just fitted one of these to my mains block .Build -wise, this is a serious piece of kit . Initial impressions are very good .I'll update when I have time to listen properly.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/furutech-F1-1363G-gold-plated-UK-13A-mains-plug-10-10-/130731863439?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Power_Ca bles_Connectors&hash=item1e7039ed8f
Looks good Brian..
£83!!!!!
brian2957
08-09-2012, 20:46
:D May prove to be a ' cheap ' upgrade mate . I'm listening just now and it's unlikely I'll be sending it back.
Nice one, Brian. I use the Rhodium version of the same plug. The advantage you gain with the Furutech, is the copper (as opposed to brass) conductor and the quality of the internal connections, all helping maintain signal integrity.
I hope you bought it from one of our resident Furutech-friendly dealers, on AoS, though! ;)
Marco,
brian2957
08-09-2012, 21:03
This is without a doubt the best mains plug I've come across . I do try to support the sellers on AOS when I can , but this seller was the first one I dealt with on Ebay quite a few years ago Marco and he has been a favourite seller ever since . I feel I owe him a bit of support too .
Fair enough, baby. Glad you're enjoying it. Now you just need some more! :eyebrows:
Marco.
brian2957
08-09-2012, 21:14
Aye , NEED to get one for the amp now :) . Did you try the gold v rhodium and if so what were your findings .
Nope, but I suspect that there would be little difference, sonically, as all you're talking about is a thin coating of another material over the same conductor.
What I like about Rhodium plating, however, on plugs and sockets that take a lot of abuse (the pins on 13A plugs, for example), is that it's very durable (more durable than gold plating), and so protects the pins better against oxidising, thus maintaining a more consistant electrical connection. This is why, with quality plugs and sockets, I generally prefer the Rhodium-plated versions :)
Marco.
brian2957
08-09-2012, 21:25
Thanks Marco , when I get around to purchasing another ( which judging on initial impressions is a strong possibility ) I may go for the rhodium plated plug.
Nice one, Brian. It simply means that the integrity of the connection will be better maintained, that's all. However, sometimes Rhodium plating can produce a more 'sparkly' and detailed sound, too :)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
08-09-2012, 21:33
However, sometimes Rhodium plating can produce a more 'sparkly' and detailed sound, too :)
Marco.
Is that because it's a brighter colour? :eyebrows:
Sorry Marco, I couldn't resist it :D
Now where did I leave that rock :scratch:
brian2957
08-09-2012, 21:35
I had heard this . That's why I went for the gold plated version . I was using a silver - plated MK plug and the gold plated Furutech seems to be giving me a more open but smoother presentation . Sometimes I wonder if I'm hearing things :rolleyes: Obviously that makes two of us :eyebrows:
Is that because it's a brighter colour?
Yes, it's because I'm a really a magpie! :D
Marco.
The Black Adder
09-09-2012, 09:45
A quick question if I may. What would be best from the CU to the sockets? Would you go for 6mm or 16mm SWA if you had the choice?
I'm going to go for two radials with a double socket on each using the house earth, any suggestions/comments?
Aye , NEED to get one for the amp now :) . Did you try the gold v rhodium and if so what were your findings .
I have gold and rhodium versions in different positions and there's such a small difference between them that I'm not going to get hung up about it. You'll make a far bigger difference by changing the fuse for a Hi-Fi Tuning one.
+1 :)
Joe, the answer is, the thicker cable, the better, as you're further lowering resistance and impedance. Therefore, if you can handle the relative inflexibility of routing 16mm² underneath walls, or whatever, then go for it!
Also, if you can install a dedicated earth for your system, via plunging a serious of star-wired copper rods, into your garden, then that will make a huge difference, sonically, by significantly lowering noise on the dedicated mains feeding your system. I can advice you on how to do this safely, if necessary :cool:
Marco.
The Black Adder
09-09-2012, 15:50
Please do, Marco. I'm interested to know. I will get a sparky in to do the job, just need to find one with a hi-fi passion. I am however thinking of getting some advice on routing the cable beforehand so I can do that myself and save some squids. I'll leave the connecting to the onion man.
Pm me if required.
Hi Joe,
Best give me a bell, matey, and I'll talk you through it. Have you still got my number? :)
Marco.
Mark Grant
10-09-2012, 10:32
A quick question if I may. What would be best from the CU to the sockets? Would you go for 6mm or 16mm SWA if you had the choice?
I'm going to go for two radials with a double socket on each using the house earth, any suggestions/comments?
16mm cores might not physically fit in the terminals in the double sockets so I would suggest to decide which sockets you are going to use then find the largest cable that will fit for a reasonable price.
The Black Adder
10-09-2012, 11:45
16mm cores might not physically fit in the terminals in the double sockets so I would suggest to decide which sockets you are going to use then find the largest cable that will fit for a reasonable price.
Hi Mark... Cheers matey, didn't think of that.
It's Ali who has offered me the cable (if he as some) so I've not seen the cable but it's a 4 core cable, would that make a difference? Would the individual cores still be too thick do you think? The 4th core won't be used.
Just looking for an enclosure for the two double sockets too. The white 3 or 4" depth jobbies. Does anyone know of anywhere that sell these? Can't find anywhere. Also, for now they will be standard MK or Crabtree double sockets me thinks. Others seem too expensive at the moment.
Marco, pm me your number, cheers matey.
I have gold and rhodium versions in different positions and there's such a small difference between them that I'm not going to get hung up about it. You'll make a far bigger difference by changing the fuse for a Hi-Fi Tuning one.
I find a big difference in the sound between rhodium and gold iecs. Do not buy rhodium if your systems sounds bright or dry. Not so sure about plugs.
brian2957
10-09-2012, 21:36
Anybody tried these http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230843162353
Belatedly, my thoughts on the Furukawa 2.6. Marco has described it well, it is a physically imposing cable and very stiff and inflexible. You will need to plan its route carefully and specify a length that will allow for shallow bends.
I had my 2m length fitted with a right-angle Furutech rhodium plug and Furutech silver IEC. The cable is so stiff and heavy that I had to pre-bend it carefully to ensure that the run doesn't pull heavily on the plugs at either end. Most of the run rests on the floor, which may break some people's notions of cables not touching anything, but in my setup that's impossible. It is plugged into a Missing Link EPS-100 silver unswitched double socket on the ring main.
This cable effectively supplies my entire system by powering the Power Plant P10 regenerator, so is in an ultra-critical position for sound quality. It replaces a Russ Andrews Signature (Kimber) Powerkord.
The Power Plant simply loves this cable, providing incredibly tightly regulated power to all the equipment. Marco mentions that the cable is 'quiet': it sure is, or rather its extreme low impedance couples the system to the supply such that noise is effectively reduced a great deal. Everything sounds quieter, coming from a blacker background, and that always enhances dynamics. My system is not shy of slam, but the kick in the guts it is now capable of is very impressive. Even more exciting is the soundstage backdrop; music coming from a silence such that you swear you really could hear a pin drop had it been recorded.
I note that every time I improve a power cable there is a lowering of harshness and more naturally extended treble and fine detail. That's certainly the case here. Also micro-dynamics - again as Marco has observed - heighten the sense of realism, the sense of really experiencing the performance in my room and not just a recording.
I'm not sure I could suffer a multitude of these cables in my system, but if yours is fed from a central point (be it Marco's distribution unit or my regenerator) then look into this cable seriously. It's actually a lot cheaper than some of the silly stuff out there and represents excellent value for money.
The Power Plant simply loves this cable, providing incredibly tightly regulated power to all the equipment. Marco mentions that the cable is 'quiet': it sure is, or rather its extreme low impedance couples the system to the supply such that noise is effectively reduced a great deal. Everything sounds quieter, coming from a blacker background, and that always enhances dynamics.
You've nailed it, Martin! Glad the Furukawa's hitting the spot. This musical effect of this stuff is more addictive than crack cocaine, innit? :D
Marco.
This musical effect of this stuff is more addictive than crack cocaine, innit? :D
Err, umm, I'm sure it must be ;)
Just remember your student days! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I do remember, but the stuff then was a little less life threatening :rolleyes:
Lol, indeed... There were 'mushies', though! :D
Marco.
Ah, the memories of sunny days, walking along filling empty crisp packets in the park, replete with prime fungi, and returning to a friend's house to enjoy some 'afternoon tea'.... :D
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
14-09-2012, 16:12
:rfl:
Those were the days, or should I say weekends :cool:
:D
Now to get rid of this alcohol habit :eyebrows:
Hehe... I thought you'd pick up on that! ;)
Marco.
realysm42
14-09-2012, 21:24
Mushrooms, eurgh...
Reid Malenfant
14-09-2012, 21:29
Mushrooms, eurgh...
Aye, I much prefered blotters or similar :yay:
Same effect, no heaving :eyebrows:
Oy, this is a music forum I'll have you know :eyebrows:
kininigin
16-09-2012, 00:35
Isn't it shroom season soon? I used to live in hereford,so lots of places to go picking round there.
Haven't a clue where in berkshire to go though :(
Wakefield Turntables
16-09-2012, 09:39
Its now, fungi love cold dark weather (sadly my first degree based around dermatophytes, not quite fungi but I still had to do a lot of reading around the subject). where I live you can also pick these flyagaric http://www.shee-eire.com/Herbs,Trees&Fungi/Fungus/Fly-agaric/main.htm or the more traditional liberty bell mushroom which half you lot probably munched in your student days
http://www.shee-eire.com/Herbs,Trees&Fungi/Fungus/Liberty-caps/Factsheet1.htm. In fact the local farmers cut the grass virtually every week in there fields around here to stop people picking them. :)
Wakefield Turntables
16-09-2012, 09:43
Why these topics have anything to do with power mains is way beyond me :rolleyes:
'Cos using Furukawa mains cable takes you on a 'trip' to musical nirvana, baby!! :trust:
Marco.
kininigin
16-09-2012, 14:12
Its now, fungi love cold dark weather (sadly my first degree based around dermatophytes, not quite fungi but I still had to do a lot of reading around the subject). where I live you can also pick these flyagaric http://www.shee-eire.com/Herbs,Trees&Fungi/Fungus/Fly-agaric/main.htm or the more traditional liberty bell mushroom which half you lot probably munched in your student days
http://www.shee-eire.com/Herbs,Trees&Fungi/Fungus/Liberty-caps/Factsheet1.htm. In fact the local farmers cut the grass virtually every week in there fields around here to stop people picking them. :)
Well i intend to go looking in a few weeks,apparently end of september/october is a good time.I'll ask the local farmers if i can search their fields as well.You're more likely to get a yes,rather than an irate farmer with a gun,chasing you through cow shit :lol:
I'm quite interested in the affects of psychedelics on the perception of sound.
Maybe a interesting thread idea?
Anyway back to the cable talk :lol:
Wakefield Turntables
16-09-2012, 15:52
i had a friend that photocopied an enlarged full stop on a sheet of A4. He got most of his mates off their heads on mushrooms. He sits them down and tells them to stare at the black hole (can you see where this going??), he then tells them to try jumping in. Few tries later and said mates have sore heads. That my friends is a true strory from the annals of Huddersfield university :D I'll not tell you who the guy was who photocopied the full stop but he's not a million miles away :D
Sovereign
17-09-2012, 14:01
Great thread, I'll be carrying out a Roy K Riches sort out of my mains after Christmas. My listening room is a detached building so I need 30m of 35mm armoured...
Enjoy, James. Roy knows his stuff, so you'll not go far wrong following his advice.
If you can afford it, then for best results, use the Furukawa cable, for the last few metres of your install, powering your kit, and the armoured stuff, from your main CU to the dedicated one, feeding the separate spurs for your system. That way you will ensure maximum SPPV :)
Marco.
Sovereign
18-09-2012, 21:04
I'll see if I can use the cable from the dedicated CU to each piece of hardware, hardwired of course :-)
Nice one. Don't skimp either on your choice of IEC connectors, although you don't have to go for the 'dog's danglies' Furutechs :)
Marco.
Sovereign
19-09-2012, 06:53
I found the cable on Ebay, do you think this is the genuine cable or a bit of a fraud?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313&_nkw=Furukawa+cable&_sacat=0
Mmm, interesting... The answer is I'm not sure, although it seems too cheap to be true! The connectors used will definitely be inferior Chinese types (using brass, as opposed to solid-copper conductors), but the cable itself *could* be genuine.
The best people to answer that would be either David (MCRU) or Mark Grant, as they're in the trade and so will know if there are any fakes around. Perhaps one of those guys would care to comment?
Marco.
Sovereign
19-09-2012, 15:22
Marco
How do you have your maids set up?
It sounds like you had a dedicated CU behind your hifi which has now been removed and you are running a separate spur from a CU downstairs?
Why have MG extension block when you can hard wire each piece of hardware???
Thanks
The Grand Wazoo
19-09-2012, 21:52
How do you have your maids set up?
Marco has his electricity delivered to his hi-fi on a copper platter by the maids!
Spectral Morn
19-09-2012, 22:19
Marco
How do you have your maids set up?
Now that is indeed an interesting question, with many possible answers....
I pull up a chair, sit down with a nice drink :cool: and some :popcorn: and await Marco's answer :eyebrows:
Marco's leccy is hand rolled on the thighs of...
MikeMusic
20-09-2012, 08:51
Marco's leccy is hand rolled on the thighs of...
<thinks, Wrexham>
Sheep ?
Ha - very good! :sheep:
:D
Marco
How do you have your maids set up?
It sounds like you had a dedicated CU behind your hifi which has now been removed and you are running a separate spur from a CU downstairs?
Why have MG extension block when you can hard wire each piece of hardware???
The incoming mains from our local substation enters the house, via a CU in the hallway downstairs, and from there a separate spur, for the system, is fed upstairs to my dedicated listening room, via a length of 25mm² SWA armoured cable, which is then connected to one end of the junction box (shown screwed to the wall in an earlier picture).
At the other end of the junction box, the Furukawa mains cable, powering both my Copper valve amp and Mark Grant mains distribution unit, is hard-wired to the incoming mains inside the junction box, supplied by the armoured cable. From there, all my kit (save the amp) is powered by the mains block and the Furukawa mains cables connected to the equipment, via the mains block. You can't get much more 'direct' than that! :eyebrows:
In essence, therefore, the only piece of kit that is hard-wired to the mains supply is my amp. I have chosen to do things this way for various reasons. Firstly, in terms of hard-wiring only the amp, it's the component that draws the most current, and so, technically, (and which has indeed been proven by listening), the amp will benefit most, sonically, from being hard-wired to the mains supply.
The reason that the rest of the kit hasn't been hard-wired is twofold:
1) I chose to maintain a certain level of safety protection, as the rest of the kit retains a 13A fuse in the mains plug (along with its internal case fuse, or fuses).
2) Through carrying out numerous tests, I've found that it sounds best (by a significant margin) to have the source and control system components decoupled from the wall (and thus a main source of vibration), which is then transferred to the rest of the equipment via mains leads hard-wired to a CU or junction box, thus degrading sonic performance.
The use of a high-quality mains distribution block, with the system's mains leads plugged into it, supported on my Mana rack (under many levels of 'Soundstages') effectively decouples the system (amp aside) from the deleterious sonic effects of said vibration.
I used to have the amp plugged into the mains block, for the same reasons, but the improvements were very clear to hear, when Mark fitted the chunkier 2.6mm Furukawa cable to the amp and hard-wired it to the junction box. Therefore, in that instance, the benefits of allowing my amp to draw more current, and thus improve the system's transient response, outweighed any negative effect of coupling the amp to the wall (and thus to a major source of vibration). It's called achieving the best compromise.
The cumulative sonic results of the above set-up are stunning, but one should always be aware of the safety implications!
Hopefully, James, that should explain everything :)
Marco.
I found the cable on Ebay, do you think this is the genuine cable or a bit of a fraud?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313&_nkw=Furukawa+cable&_sacat=0
NO, NO, NO :)
UP-OCC stands for ultra pure ohno continuous cast copper, invented by Professor Ohno of Japan. There is only 1 machine in the world making this cable and guess what, it's owned by Furukawa.
The 2.6mm referred to as mark grant furukawa in certain posts is the 2.6mm version of the furukawa, the 2.1mm version is what I use in my Ultimates, the 2.6mm is not practical for a mains lead as it's too stiff and too thick, the 2.1mm version was introduced as a result of requests for a more flexible version of the cable. The 2.6mm at a push is OK for connecting to power conditioners and as a dedicated mains spur cable (after all it is actually an in wall cable first and foremost).
If you want to spend fruitless hours trying to track some down on the cheap beware that many e-bay sellers abroad probably have no liability insurance in case your house blows up, there are fake cables about, not sure if the EE/FS has been copied so beware. If there ever was a problem how do you explain to your insurance company you bought the cable from china off ebay, better to buy from a trusted source I reckon.
I am an authorized dealer for this cable and yes you can almost certainly find it cheaper elsewhere, I only sell the cryo treated version as it sounds better but can sell it in plain un cryo'd if anyone wants it, as can Mr Grant no doubt.
See it at the Whittlebury show if anyone wants a peep. :)
Thanks for the info, daftee. Therefore, can we presume that the 'Furukawa' cable linked to earlier is an inferior copy or a fake?
Incidentally, in the interests of accuracy:
The 2.6mm referred to as mark grant furukawa in certain posts...
I think you've misinterpreted that, dude, certainly if you're referring to anything that I've written. What I said was that the cable was sold by Mark (and also you), but never implied that the cable was called a "mark grant furukawa" :nono:
Also:
I am an authorized dealer for this cable...
Indeed, as is anyone else in the trade who has an account with Black Rhodium :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
20-09-2012, 14:28
Just had a peek at the ebay listing,
Seems to be a genuine seller, ie; lots of feedback etc, so, one could presume that the cables are genuine, its posible that he buys the cable direct as others do here, and gets a good deal on quantity etc.
I think at the end of the day, when buying from a source outside of the UK, one should always assume there is a higher risk element of something not being what it is described as, so agree with Dave [MCRU] on that front.
However, if you contact the seller and he can assure you with proof that his cables are genuine then i cant see there being an issue.
A...
MikeMusic
20-09-2012, 14:31
Just had a peek at the ebay listing,
Seems to be a genuine seller, ie; lots of feedback etc
Account could have been hijacked. Not saying has been of course....
anthonyTD
20-09-2012, 14:46
Account could have been hijacked. Not saying has been of course....
Fair point, :)
Hence my advice to check things out as thoroughly as possible.
A...
Sovereign
20-09-2012, 16:48
I have always found eBay to be a safe ace to do business with the huge back up of eBay and PayPal should anything be found to be a fake. However a replica can be indestinguishable from the original, but I doubt it is in this instance
Why not email the seller.
Would be extremely surprised if it is a hijacked account.
Sovereign
20-09-2012, 18:15
I don't think it's a fake or a hijacked account, if it is and alarms are raised eBay will be all over it like a rash.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
20-09-2012, 18:31
Can I ask a really dumb question? What about the EU plug? Does he do them with UK plugs or will you just take the plug off? Seems wasteful or are you planning to hard wire?
Sovereign
20-09-2012, 19:05
If your asking me, I'm not planning on using the wire to go from a CU or distribution block into my NVA amps, I a planning on using it from a dedicated CU - hardwired into an AG1500 regenerator - then hardwired into a home made distribution block using 15a sockets.
My plan for a mains upgrade is a bit RKR, RD and my own slant.
Figlet108
20-09-2012, 19:05
Ok,I contacted the seller. It's 17mm cable which goes some way to explain this price.
And you can buy raw cable without plugs - just contact him with how much you want.
I'm pretty sure he is genuine.
Sorry, Jason, I don't get what you mean by "It's 17mm cable which goes some way to explain this price"? What's 17mm got to do with anything? The Furukawa cable we're discussing that Mark and David sell is 2.6 and 2.1mm :scratch:
Marco.
anthonyTD
20-09-2012, 19:15
Sorry, Jason, I don't get what you mean by "It's 17mm cable which goes some way to explain this price"? What's 17mm got to do with anything? The Furukawa cable we're discussing that Mark and David sell is 2.6 and 2.1mm :scratch:
Marco.
Its the over-all outside diam of the cable!
Not the conductor size. :)
A...
Ah, I see... 17mm meant nothing to me, as I've no idea what the outside diameter is of the 2.6mm (conductor size) cable :)
Marco.
Sovereign
20-09-2012, 19:54
Ok,I contacted the seller. It's 17mm cable which goes some way to explain this price.
And you can buy raw cable without plugs - just contact him with how much you want.
I'm pretty sure he is genuine.
Nice one Jason
Figlet108
20-09-2012, 20:19
For some reason I thought the 2.6mm conductor version was more than 17mm overall - but I could be talking nonsense.
Anyway, as soon as my new friend Geng wakes up I'll ask him :)
I think that cable is fake. It's too cheap. The advert mentions it coming from Hong Kong, but then at the bottom says China. Loads of Chinese kit for sale. I suspect he's on the mainland. I'm off to HK in Dec might ask to go to his premises.
For some reason I thought the 2.6mm conductor version was more than 17mm overall - but I could be talking nonsense.
I'm sure it is more, mate, but someone like David Brook or Mark Grant could confirm.
Anyway, as soon as my new friend Geng wakes up I'll ask him
Excellent :)
Marco.
The Furukawa 2.6 measures 17mm overall diameter, as far as I can see by eye.
I roughly measured mine earlier too, and it looked about that... Oooh, the plot thickens! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Guys,
The cable on ebay is NOT the same cable that Martin. Marco and I use, not the same 100% guaranteed, do I have to spell it out, it's totally different. The Furukawa 2.6mm and 2.1mm is a heavily shielded solid core cable, the ebay seller mentions furutech in one of his adverts, buyer beware. Scour the web and lots of suppliers sell supposedly OCC copper cable, £70 for a length of wire with 2 connectors on is not right!
Trying to do it on the cheap is not sensible, trust me.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
21-09-2012, 05:52
Guys,
The cable on ebay is NOT the same cable that Martin. Marco and I use, not the same 100% guaranteed, do I have to spell it out, it's totally different. The Furukawa 2.6mm and 2.1mm is a heavily shielded solid core cable, the ebay seller mentions furutech in one of his adverts, buyer beware. Scour the web and lots of suppliers sell supposedly OCC copper cable, £70 for a length of wire with 2 connectors on is not right!
Trying to do it on the cheap is not sensible, trust me.
Can I ask how you can be 100% certain about this. Unless you've bought some and had it professionally analysed then surely you can't be? Dunno, maybe you've done that or know someone who has.
Harry - David is in the cable business and is therefore in a much better position to know than the rest of us. Do you really think you can get something for so much less money without it being a Chinese rip-off?
David, you do realise that you are actually breaking the law by offering the Furutech 1363 range of plugs for sale in the UK? None of them have been UK safety tested and approved and as such it's illegal to offer them for supply and sale in the UK. You might want to look into that as it would certainly void anyone's household insurance were they required to make a claim.
and martin wondered why I decided to leave this forum recently and he asked me to come back!
Simon, take that issue up with Furutech direct, I and 1000's of other sellers who you have not pointed out as you enjoy being controversial sell these plugs. Such a statement should not be posted in a public forum without evidence which I presume you have, if so take it up with the manufacturer before posting comments like this and unless you remove it I will take this further as it's me you have chosen to pick on (again).
Can I ask how you can be 100% certain about this. Unless you've bought some and had it professionally analysed then surely you can't be? Dunno, maybe you've done that or know someone who has.
look at the pictures
they are DIFFERENT to what I have here
Ali Tait
21-09-2012, 07:52
I don't think it's a fake or a hijacked account, if it is and alarms are raised eBay will be all over it like a rash.
I wouldn't rely much on eBay or PayPal. I agree there is generally no problem buying stuff on the bay, however last year I bought an item which I never received. Before I put a complaint in, eBay removed the seller as fraudulent. Despite this, after I made my complaint, they found in favour of the seller! I have given up asking eBay to justify their decision. Needless to say I never got my money back.
MikeMusic
21-09-2012, 07:58
I wouldn't rely much on eBay or PayPal. I agree there is generally no problem buying stuff on the bay, however last year I bought an item which I never received. Before I put a complaint in, eBay removed the seller as fraudulent. Despite this, after I made my complaint, they found in favour of the seller! I have given up asking eBay to justify their decision. Needless to say I never got my money back.
Chocolate and teapot come to mind
I buy a lot of stuff from Ebay, relying on the basic honesty of 99% of the people on there. Comes to the crunch I think your example would be the norm
MikeMusic
21-09-2012, 07:59
Harry - David is in the cable business and is therefore in a much better position to know than the rest of us. Do you really think you can get something for so much less money without it being a Chinese rip-off?
10,000 eh Martin
What do you do all day ?
:)
Figlet108
21-09-2012, 08:45
Ok, Geng has provided a close-up of the cable:
http://i50.tinypic.com/2ijokcx.jpg
Looks real to me and Geng's behaviour doesn't fit my profile of a cheat...
Jason, that looks totally different from what's shown here (which is the stuff Martin, David and I use):
http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/power_cord/pg466.html
;)
It's not the same cable, mate. Look at the cores, for starters...! Here are the two of them together, in order to remove any doubt:
http://i50.tinypic.com/2ijokcx.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img341/9646/furukawa26mmcable.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/341/furukawa26mmcable.jpg/)
Marco.
Figlet108
21-09-2012, 09:04
Yep, looks completely different.
I have invited Geng to join the discussion here.
chris@panteg
21-09-2012, 09:08
Hi Marco
The cable in your link is ' In wall cable ' Gengs cable I'm assuming is the flexible stuff ?
No worries. Always happy to welcome a new member :)
I've no doubt that Geng is selling a legitimate product, but it's not the same Furukawa cable we were discussing (EE / F-S 2.6 2.6mm PCOCC-A), and which David Brook and Mark Grant sell here, hence the difference in price....! ;)
Anyway, at least we've solved the matter now.
Marco.
Hi Marco
The cable in your link is ' In line cable ' Gengs cable I'm assuming is the flexible stuff ?
It's multi-strand cable too, Chris, as opposed to solid-core - totally different!
Marco.
chris@panteg
21-09-2012, 09:12
Jason, that looks totally different from what's shown here (which is the stuff Martin, David and I use):
http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/power_cord/pg466.html
;)
It's not the same cable, mate. Look at the cores, for starters...! Here are the two of them together, in order to remove any doubt:
http://i50.tinypic.com/2ijokcx.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img341/9646/furukawa26mmcable.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/341/furukawa26mmcable.jpg/)
Marco.
Marco , He's not selling it as In wall cable ? But as replacement leads , you wouldn't try and use that 2.6 stuff with an IEC and plug would you :scratch:
Lol... You're missing the point, Chris. Unfortunately I don't have time to explain it just now, as I'm in the middle of doing a few things.
Perhaps someone else can explain it to Chris? Cheers :)
Marco.
Ok, Geng has provided a close-up of the cable
Dude, the Furukawa 2.1 and 2.6 cables are solid core. Whatever he's showing you, it is not like the cables we are using or which David Brooks and Mark Grant are selling. Therefore we cannot speak for its quality.
Can we have less of this casting aspertions bollocks now as I'm starting to lose my rag.
chris@panteg
21-09-2012, 09:18
It's multi-strand cable too, Chris, as opposed to solid-core - totally different!
Marco.
I think Furutech make a flexible multi stranded cable for standard leads though ? From David's site .
37 strands of 0.25mm diameter α Alpha μ-OFC Conductor x 1 Core (ą14 AWG) / (1.82 sq.mm).
chris@panteg
21-09-2012, 09:23
Lol... You're missing the point, Chris. Unfortunately I don't have time to explain it just now, as I'm in the middle of doing a few things.
Perhaps someone else can explain it to Chris? Cheers :)
Marco.
.
Jeez...
Martin or someone else, could you please explain to Chris what's happened here, as I simply don't have the time at the moment to sit and type it out. Cheers!
Marco.
The cables sold by David Brooks and Mark Grant are Furukawa 2.1 or 2.6 solid core cables. They are manufactured as in-wall cables but are used to make up power cables as well as sold off the reel.
Marco and I have used and assessed these cables for both hard-wired and stand-alone power cable use (for instance, David's MCRU Ultimate cable). We have reviewed them very positively and I know that several members on AoS are using them or a variant of.
Therefore all of our comments relate to these models only. If you want to take a flyer on something else that may or may not be manufactured by Furukawa, you're on your own. However, to compare them or suggest that they sound the same is erroneous, and to then go on to complain that they're available cheaper on eBay is, at the least, very misleading.
Second point: the Furutech plugs clearly have a CE mark on them and to suggest on public forum that it is illegal to sell them is potentially libellous.
Right, I've just taken off one of the Furutech FI-1363 plugs on my mains leads (in order to photograph it later) and it CLEARLY shows a CE mark on the base of the plug.
I will post a close-up picture later of the plug, showing the CE mark. Therefore, Simon, what you wrote before is totally erroneous, and so you owe David a public apology - in fact, I insist on it.
Next time, please get your facts right, and provide evidence, before bandying about unfounded accusations that could damage someone's business!
Marco.
I didn't think that CE marking was appropriate for BS 1363 plugs and sockets?
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ABS_1363
"Just to clarify, EU rules do not enter into this and the suggestion that plugs would bear CE marks is false. The CE mark can only be applied under an EU regulation, and there is no EU regulation which covers BS 1363. In fact the UK government states: "As the devices regulated by Part I (of the Plugs and Sockets Regulations) are outside of the scope of Community Directives and the Regulations are national in origin in support of the General Product Safety Directive, the CE Marking is not to be used. Its use may constitute an offence under section 1 of the Trade Descriptions Act 1968." A CE mark on what may appear to be a BS 1363 plug (and there are plenty of them) is a sure sign of a counterfeit plug." (my emphasis)
Interesting info, Keith, so thanks for sharing. It helps put things into perspective. Clearly, not everything sold in the UK requires to be CE approved.
Regardless, however, there is no way that the Furutech plugs being widely sold throughout the UK by various suppliers, for some considerable time, are counterfeit, otherwise we'd have known about it by now.
Marco.
...there is no way that the Furutech plugs being widely sold throughout the UK by various suppliers, for some considerable time, are counterfeit, otherwise we'd have known about it by now.
Marco.
Just to clarify that "counterfeit" here means a plug claiming to conform to BS 1363 that doesn't - NOT a suggestion that its not a genuine Furutech product
Cool - the wording was somewhat misleading :)
Marco.
Mark Grant
21-09-2012, 10:19
I'm not missing the point ! He's not selling or claiming its the 2.6 IN WALL CABLE !
They are advertised as Furutech IEC mains leads ! The cable your talking about is IN WALL CABLE , Furutech make flexible leads too !
I think the confusion started on post 110
I found the cable on Ebay, do you think this is the genuine cable or a bit of a fraud?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_tr...cable&_sacat=0
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=363436&postcount=110
'the' was 'similar' rather than the actual cable and its gone downhill ever since:eek:
Just a slight misunderstanding and because it's about cables it all kicks off :)
Indeed, Mark. Your explanation and Martin's should hopefully clear things up.
Basically, the cable that Geng is selling on eBay is a multi-strand mains cable, for use in mains leads, which no doubt is a genuine Furukawa product, and probably very good, but the key point is that it is NOT the same product that I installed recently to hard-wire my power amp to the dedicated mains supply for my system (as detailed earlier on this thread). The former, being a multi-strand cable, will not sound the same.
James (Sovereign) found Geng's advert for the Furutech cable on eBay, and thought it was the same thing that I had used. However, as it clearly isn't, it cannot be compared with the same solid-core EE / F-S 2.6mm PCOCC-A Furutech cable that I (or Martin) are using.
I really do hope now that the situation is crystal clear to everyone! :)
Marco.
sq225917
21-09-2012, 10:45
Apologies to David for the incorrect statement. I had been informed incorrectly as to the conformity of the plugs in question and as Marco says they are indeed CE approved. I apologise unreservedly for not checking my facts first hand. I wasn't targeting David above anyone else, this just happened to be the thread I landed on upon coming to AOS after having been in discussions around this topic on an unrelated site I thought to check if he was selling the item in question as his name was in the thread covering the same brand.
Sorry.
Ali Tait
21-09-2012, 10:48
In the interests of clarity, I feel the need to point out that many Chinese manufacturers apply a fake CE mark to their products. This is well documented on the net if you have a look around.
Apologies to David for the incorrect statement. I had been informed incorrectly as to the conformity of the plugs in question and as Marco says they are indeed CE approved. I apologise unreservedly for not checking my facts first hand. I wasn't targeting David above anyone else, this just happened to be the thread I landed on upon coming to AOS after having been in discussions around this topic on an unrelated site I thought to check if he was selling the item in question as his name was in the thread covering the same brand.
Sorry.
I understand. Thanks for that, Simon. I appreciate the apology, as I'm sure David will :)
Could you please now delete the original post, where you made the accusation, and I will then remove the subsequent remarks made in reference to it?
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Apologies to David I had been incorrectly informed with respect to the CE status of the 1363 Furutech plug when discussing this with a third party.
Excellent. I shall delete the other posts later - right now, it's lunchtime, and I have some pan-fried veal T-bone, marinated in lemon, garlic and fresh rosemary, to polish off - yum yum! :)
Laters....
Marco.
Those Furutech plugs are the best plugs I have ever used in terms of both quality and sound. I have tried MK etc too.
Yep, the Furutech plugs really are superb. My favourite has emerged as the FI-1363 rhodium.
By the way, Furutech are a Japanese company so very upstanding compared with some Chinese companies.
Beobloke
21-09-2012, 12:20
I usually try and stay out of threads like this as I end up getting very cross, but I thought I would draw your attention to this statement from the Department of Trade and Industry's 'Requirements for Plugs and Sockets'
As the devices regulated by Part I (i.e. UK mains plugs ands sockets) are outside of the scope of Community Directives and the Regulations are national in origin in support of the General Product Safety Directive, the CE Marking is not to be used. Its use may constitute an offence under section 1 of the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
In addition I would add that I do not know the status of the aforementioned Furutech plugs and so cannot comment on them specifically.
UK law requires that most if not all electrical equipment used in the home needs to comply with the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 1994 and that where required the equipment must be fitted with a plug that has been approved by a notified body and either conforms to BS 1363 or offers an equivalent level of safety.
The 3 current (no pun intended) notified bodies are BSI, ASTA-BEAB (Intertek) and Nemko UK. Plugs for use in the UK market must carry at least one of the approval marks eg: kitemark, diamond or N mark.
If the plugs are not marked as above then they ain't approved for use (or legal?) in the UK no matter who makes them. CE marking in this instance simply has no relevance.
Hugh
Thanks for the info, guys. However, this is getting way too complicated and, TBH, somewhat tedious.
The only facts that interest me are:
1) I bought my (CE marked, containing no other approval marks that I can see) Furutech FI-1363 mains plugs, to my knowledge, legally, from an authorised UK agent for Furutech.
2) They have notably increased the sonic performance of my system.
Anything else outside of that doesn't really interest me, and is between the manufacturer (Furutech) and their authorised agents to sort out between them. If these plugs were not legal for sale in the UK, then they shouldn't have been advertised and sold here in the first place!!
Somehow, I can't see a company like Furutech not looking into the necessary legalities and attending to them, before distributing their products into the UK market. I am therefore perfectly satisfied with the product that I have bought.
Marco.
I see that Richard Dunn's spouting his idiocy again. I thought that he was behaving himself, after recently being given some 'home truths' by Jason, in public, on his toy forum. Obviously not:
But you are shilling an illegal product from one of *your* pet, approved by you, suppliers.
I'm not "shilling" anyone. I'm merely recommending products (as a consumer) which I consider are good, to fellow members of the forum. There's a big difference between that and shilling - look the latter up in the dictionary!
You've got "shilling", "slurping" and "ad hominem" on the brain.
Now run along and get a life, take your 'telling off' from Jason on board, and stop behaving like my pet stalker (as flattering as it is), there's a good lad! :D
Over and out.
Marco.
I too am getting tired of this. I don't shill anyone, I listen to products and recommend those that perform very well, regardless of who supplies them. Proof of that is that I have recommended NVA LS7 speaker cable in this very forum, along with many other products. I never recommend something that I personally have not heard.
EOT for me.
Sovereign
21-09-2012, 14:09
Bloody Hell! what did I start there???
I have not been on the forum since last night and all hell broke loose due to an eBay link I posted, this is where forums frustrate me.
I was interested in this thread and read it from the first page, when I got to the end of the thread I tried to find the cable from Edmunds Electrical wholesalers and couldn't find it. I entered the cable into Mark Grants search box on his site and couldn't find it there, so I had a quick look on eBay, due to the price I didn't think it could have been the cable Marco had been referring to so I asked the question here and posted the link.
Since then there have been comments on multiple forums, emails to the Far East and back, libelous accusations and a near court case.
Sometimes you regret making any comment at all.
Proof of that is that I have recommended NVA LS7 speaker cable in this very forum, along with many other products.
Indeed, so what's the difference between you recommending (and reviewing, prompted by the manufacturer), I would hasten to add, NVA speaker cable, and me doing the same with a Furutech plug or mains cable (although I wasn't prompted to do so by anyone)?
Richard Dunn creates his own ludicrous definition for things, simply to to suit whatever agenda he has that day! :rolleyes:
Perhaps you shouldn't "shill" any more of his cables, or anything else, he sends you for review? ;)
Anyway, I insist that this thread gets back on-topic, i.e. discussing the sonic merits of the products concerned or that which relates to installing separate mains spurs for hi-fi systems. Anything further which is off-topic will be deleted.
I think we've heard quite enough now from the 'Mains Plug Police' and the brain damaged elsewhere!
Marco.
Bloody Hell! what did I start there???
I have not been on the forum since last night and all hell broke loose due to an eBay link I posted, this is where forums frustrate me.
I was interested in this thread and read it from the first page, when I got to the end of the thread I tried to find the cable from Edmunds Electrical wholesalers and couldn't find it. I entered the cable into Mark Grants search box on his site and couldn't find it there, so I had a quick look on eBay, due to the price I didn't think it could have been the cable Marco had been referring to so I asked the question here and posted the link.
Since then there have been comments on multiple forums, emails to the Far East and back, libelous accusations and a near court case.
Sometimes you regret making any comment at all.
Bloody trouble maker :lol:
Wakefield Turntables
21-09-2012, 15:30
Does the ce mark have to be on the body of the plug, or does it have to be on one of the three prongs??
Andrew, with respect, I think we've had more than enough now about the CE thing and legalities, as I wrote in my previous post, so let's leave it there, mate, and return to purely hi-fi matters.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Dave,
Did you read what I've just written? Please delete your post, as it's now off-topic. {Edit: I've done it for you}.
Any more of this, people, and the thread will be locked.
Marco.
Dave,
Did you read what I've just written? Please delete your post, as it's now off-topic. {Edit: I've done it for you}.
Any more of this, people, and the thread will be locked.
Marco.
Sorry Marco I didn't see your post. I was just pointing out what might have been the source of the issue ;)
No worries. Some of these busybodies and 'curtain twitchers', with nothing else better to do, but interfere and moan, can't help themselves... :rolleyes:
It's like the self-appointed 'Traffic Police' you get (only here we have the 'Mains Plug Police'), who insist on hogging the outside lane of a motorway, and not letting you past, even though the middle lane is clear, just because they're doing 70 MPH, and don't want you going any faster than them (oh how I loathe people like that...)! ;)
Right....... Now, back to the subject of audio!!
Marco.
No worries. Some of these busybodies and 'curtain twitchers', with nothing else better to do, but interfere and moan, can't help themselves... :rolleyes:
In PlugSafe's case I'm very much behind them having perused their website and seen just what dangers there are out there for the unsuspecting consumer. Some of the items highlighted are available from very well known and respected retailers.
It's like the self-appointed 'Traffic Police' you get (only here we have the 'Mains Plug Police'), who insist on hogging the outside lane of a motorway, and not letting you past, even though the middle lane is clear, just because they're doing 70 MPH, and don't want you going any faster than them (oh how I loathe people like that...)! ;)
Oh that's an easy one to solve; look over left shoulder and also check nearside mirror. If middle lane is clear, move into it, put foot down and zoom off into the sunset, moving into nearside lane if clear. That's what I do anyway ;)
Right....... Now, back to the subject of audio!!
Indeed... ;)
Wakefield Turntables
21-09-2012, 19:22
Andrew, with respect, I think we've had more than enough now about the CE thing and legalities, as I wrote in my previous post, so let's leave it there, mate, and return to purely hi-fi matters.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Right ok. The only reason I ask is because I have a similar setup to yourself in that I have my own spur into my listening room. But I have plans to slightly redesign the traditional plug as we know it ;) Additionally I has plans to hardwire some of my kit, thats why I sent you a PM the other day about how you'd hardwired some of your kit. If your interested in talking about it, send me a pm.
Best give me a ring, mate, as I get about 40 PMs a day (not including emails), about one thing and another, and there simply aren't enough hours in the day to answer them all!
I'll PM you my number :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
21-09-2012, 19:29
Andrew, with respect, I think we've had more than enough now about the CE thing and legalities, as I wrote in my previous post, so let's leave it there, mate, and return to purely hi-fi matters.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Replied! :cool:
I had a hifi dedicated CU and ring installed a few years ago. At the time the perceived wisdom was a ring was better than a spur (radial) supply. Dont know what the current thinking is on this.
I had 6mm sq cable rated at 30 amp put in - this amperage is doubled with a ring as opposed to a single run which I guess is one advantage.
I use industrial sockets and plugs to connect a furman balanced power conditioner.
These plugs provide a very large contact area so are pretty quiet.
http://img-europe.electrocomponents.com/largeimages/R7209409-01.jpg
http://img-europe.electrocomponents.com/largeimages/R464161-01.jpg
MikeMusic
01-10-2012, 07:30
I had a hifi dedicated CU and ring installed a few years ago. At the time the perceived wisdom was a ring was better than a spur (radial) supply. Dont know what the current thinking is on this.
I had 6mm sq cable rated at 30 amp put in - this amperage is doubled with a ring as opposed to a single run which I guess is one advantage.
I use industrial sockets and plugs to connect a furman balanced power conditioner.
These plugs provide a very large contact area so are pretty quiet.
I had a ring for the room too. Seems I should have had a spur :(
Standard twin and earth or I may have specified something a bit thicker
Wish I'd been here in 2009 when it was all done
Be interested to hear if anyone else has tried those Commando plugs and sockets as they are nice and big with a good, solid connection. I guess they will be out performed by expensive plugs and sockets but I wonder by how much .....
I had those industrial connectors on my boat for providing shore power. Still have the extension cable in my garage.
MikeMusic
01-10-2012, 07:49
I had those industrial connectors on my boat for providing shore power. Still have the extension cable in my garage.
Got me thinking about the 3 phase armoured extension cable we have at work plus all the spare single and 3 phase plugs and sockets......
Bit big for home use but I wonder how they sound
Got me thinking about the 3 phase armoured extension cable we have at work plus all the spare single and 3 phase plugs and sockets......
Bit big for home use but I wonder how they sound
The thickness of the conductors is not as important as the purity of the copper. Then there is the shielding which is vitally important, read this peeps. (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/sitefiles/15/2/2/152201/cables_explained.pdf)
Mark Grant
01-10-2012, 09:23
The thickness of the conductors is not as important as the purity of the copper.
:) The current capacity of a cable is directly related to the mm2 of the conductors, the purity is a secondary consideration aimed at hifi enthusiasts and has very little to do with current capacity.
As an example a 6mm2 plain copper electrical cable will always be able carry more current than a 2mm2 hi-fi branded electrical cable regardless of 99.99999% pure cryo treated etc.
I do see what you mean though but the size of the conductor is the most important consideration as many people dont understand the effects of volt drop when more than a few amps are drawn through a length of cable.
So I would say to look for a large enough capacity cable then look for something bling in the same mm2 or larger if anyone feels the need to spend more etc.
MikeMusic
01-10-2012, 09:29
The thickness of the conductors is not as important as the purity of the copper. Then there is the shielding which is vitally important, read this peeps. (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/sitefiles/15/2/2/152201/cables_explained.pdf)
Ah thank you Master
We learn
:)
(well I certainly do)
Wakefield Turntables
01-10-2012, 13:51
:) The current capacity of a cable is directly related to the mm2 of the conductors, the purity is a secondary consideration aimed at hifi enthusiasts and has very little to do with current capacity.
As an example a 6mm2 plain copper electrical cable will always be able carry more current than a 2mm2 hi-fi branded electrical cable regardless of 99.99999% pure cryo treated etc.
I do see what you mean though but the size of the conductor is the most important consideration as many people dont understand the effects of volt drop when more than a few amps are drawn through a length of cable.
So I would say to look for a large enough capacity cable then look for something bling in the same mm2 or larger if anyone feels the need to spend more etc.
:clapclapclap: nice reply mark. Using nice simple science based principals to explain how a cable works. I have seen no evidence yet which suggests that Cu or Ag purity helps improve sonics or conductivity. At least the cross sectional area of Cu can be measured to see the effects on conductivity. Do you have any thoughts on how the measureable effects of RFI and EMI effect how a cable works (i.e. interconnects / speaker cables etc).
Thanks
A
As the old saying goes: "never mind the quality, feel the width". Well, in this case, for optimum results, one should feel BOTH the width AND the quality! Therefore, what both Mark and David have stated is right.
Using a mains cable, constructed from 'weeny-boy' thin copper conductors, no matter how pure, would be as crap as using one constructed from 'fat-boy' copper conductors of (in comparison with the best) grossly inferior purity. It's not just about maximising current capacity, nor is it just about conductor material purity. For optimum sonic results, you want the best of BOTH worlds, which is why, IMO, the 2.1 or 2.6mm Furukawa cable (discussed earlier) is the best that there is.
There are plenty of decent high-current capacity, high-purity copper cables available, but it's the Ohno Continuous Casting Process (see details here: http://www.audiotweak.co.za/items/1306765741-0910.pdf), of the Furukawa, which makes the difference, delivering both high-current capability AND the highest possible conductor material purity! Couple that with the Furukawa's serious attention to shielding, and you've got a near no-compromise solution for mains cables and all mains power installations for high-end audio systerms.
http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/power_cord/pg466.html
From the link above:
EE/F-S 2.6 is consists of 2.6mm PCOCC-A conductors which have a 600V 30A capacity, halogen-free sheathing developed specifically for audio applications, copper foil shielding and a drain wire for easy wire connection. It has demonstrated 30dB superiority in noise protection over standard indoor cable.
Why settle for anything less? :)
Marco.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
01-10-2012, 18:06
Dare I ask how much per metre that stuff is Marco?
Why settle for anything less? :)
Marco.
Indeed, and as you once said to me, doubt if there will ever be anything better!
Dare I ask how much per metre that stuff is Marco?
The 2.1mm is RRP £100 per metre
The 2.6mm is RRP £125 per metre
Hope that helps.
Indeed, and as you once said to me, doubt if there will ever be anything better!
I'd argue the case for your own No. 9 being very, very close. Anyway, I needed the far greater flexibility :)
I doubt there would be much in it, sonically, providing that you're using Furutech FI-50 IEC plugs and FI-1363 13A plugs, with whatever cable David supplied. Those make a huge difference, especially the FI-50s, which are undoubtedly the finest IEC plugs ever made! :eek:
http://imageshack.us/a/img819/2003/furutechfi5020b2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/furutechfi5020b2.jpg/)
Marco.
Sovereign
01-10-2012, 19:46
I doubt there would be much in it, sonically, providing that you're using Furutech FI-50 IEC plugs and FI-1363 13A plugs, with whatever cable David supplied. Those make a huge difference, especially the FI-50s, which are undoubtedly the finest IEC plugs ever made! :eek:
This is where I don't get it, sure these are top IEC connectors, but if you hard wire the cable straight into the hifi components then it will sound better still. Why is this so often overlooked? As we all say why settle for second best?
This is where I don't get it, sure these are top IEC connectors, but if you hard wire the cable straight into the hifi components then it will sound better still. Why is this so often overlooked? As we all say why settle for second best?
Try wiring the Furukawa direct into anything, not possible. Then when you sell said component what do you do? The Furutech FI-50 is not £200+ for the sake of it, it has an earth damper mechanism built in as well as other unique features, hard wiring is for the DIY crowd, not for the general hi-fi public. I could hard wire all my system no problem but what do I do when someone sends me a new cable to try?
Hi James,
This is where I don't get it, sure these are top IEC connectors, but if you hard wire the cable straight into the hifi components then it will sound better still. Why is this so often overlooked? As we all say why settle for second best?
That's a good point, and a valid one too, so it deserves a proper answer! :)
The reason I use IEC plugs is firstly so that my mains cables are portable, as quite often I'll take them to friends, who also have nice hi-fi systems, and let them try them. Quite a few have bought some of their own, the same as mine, as a result of being very impressed with their sonic effectiveness.
Secondly, having conducted numerous listening tests, over a long period of time, it's become obvious to me that not coupling your equipment directly to a main source of vibration, i.e. the wall, makes a significant difference to the sonic performance of your equipment and system, and crucially, it's ability to reproduce music as realistically as possible. By hard-wiring mains cables to equipment (especially, if they're also hard-wired at the source end), you're effectively allowing the connecting cable to act as a conduit for transferring harmful vibrational energy directly into your equipment and system, thus notably degrading its performance. Honestly, if properly demonstrated, you can easily hear the effect!
Using IEC plugs, such as the Furutech FI-50, with its cleverly constructed vibration-damping shell, effectively decouples your equipment from the most harmful sonic effects of the aforementioned vibrational energy. Trust me, I've tried hard-wiring, using a thinner version of the same cable (as the 2.6mm Furukawa is solid-core and so way too stiff and unyielding to solder directly to anything and stay put), and it sounds worse! It probably wouldn't sound worse, however, if you were using ordinary IEC plugs with thinner and more flexible multi-strand mains cable (as per the norm on mains leads), so what you're suggesting would likely work better in those circumstances.
This is also why I use a high-quality mains distribution block, placed on many levels of Mana supports, with all my gear plugged into that, instead of hard-wiring mains cables directly to the incoming supply or plugging them into wall sockets, with the exception of my power amp. The reason for that is the mains block helps decouple my system from the wall, and thus to a major source of vibration. The Furutech mains plugs I also use feature solid-copper conductors, plated with rhodium (as opposed to the usual brass, sometimes plated with gold), and are cryo-treated.
No other mains plugs I know of have those (sonically significant) features - not even the old 15A round-pin types! ;)
Honestly, you wouldn't believe the amount of listening and experimenting I've done in this area, and so have simply settled for the most practical and best sounding arrangement that I've discovered so far. However, just like in every other area of audio, I'm learning and making more improvements with the mains all the time! :cool:
Marco.
Sovereign
01-10-2012, 22:50
Marco
Thanks for your answer, really appreciate it. When I upgrade my mains I want to do it once and don't have the time and/or exhaustive passion you have, although I do love to tinker.
I've just bough a mains regenerator, which has delayed my immediate need to sort out my mains as I am VERY impressed with it, but I'm guessing it will be some time around Christmas.
When I do I have to run a 30m run of armoured cable from the house incoming supply to my detached hifi room, RKR suggests 30mm armoured I'm wondering if it will make much difference to go down to say 25mm as it is a lot easier to route round the tight corners I need to negotiate.
You're welcome, James.
No, not at all. In fact, 30mm would be way too thick and inflexible to route anywhere! I'd stick with 15 or 20mm, as it'll still be very bulky, but a lot easier to work with than 30mm stuff.
Proper mains regenerators are worthwhile and can be very effective devices, although their effectiveness depends on how bad (noisy/distorted) the mains electricity is in your area. Aside from that, you will also gain the benefit of the generator effectively acting as a high-quality distribution block, which in turn helps in decoupling your system from the wall and the harmful effects of vibrational energy, as I discussed earlier - all of which, when transferred to equipment, affects sensitive internal electronic components, and thus degrades sonic performance.
Of course, I'm not talking about vibration that you'd be able to feel, by touching the wall (which is ridiculous, unless there is a serious problem), but sub-level vibration, present in some form in all structures, and caused by all manner of things. For example, traffic rumble, permeating through your house, particularly if you live near a main road, resulting in walls vibrating in sympathy, at a sub-level beyond our ability to detect, without measurement apparatus, picked up and transferred elsewhere (such as to audio equipment) by any cables coupled to said source of external vibration. There is also the issue of airborne vibration to consider, and how that affects matters.
Honestly, is anyone really naive enough to believe that our audio equipment lives in a 'perfect' sonic environment? Think about why properly designed equipment supports work, and what they protect equipment against (such as the effects of microphony). Certain people would do well to read the following entry in Wiki, for their homework, absorb it properly, and analyse its intrinsic relationship with the phenomenon I'm referring to on this thread: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphonics
Consider this: does your kit sound good when just sat on the floor (coupled to another major source of vibration), or much better when properly isolated on a decent equipment rack? Well, vibration doesn't just travel through the floor... The trouble is, unless a phenomenon fits with someone's belief system, scientific or otherwise, the dogmatic and simple-minded will only seek to ridicule it, rather than challenge their belief system and further investigate the phenomenon. Remaining within their comfort zones and practicing their agendas, pooh-poohing previously unconsidered phenomena in the process, is always much easier!! :rolleyes: (And rest assured that I'm not talking here about you).
The only thing that puts me off mains regenerators is that all the extra electronics and connections it puts in the supply path, raising impedance along the way, rather goes against my purist principles of minimising the former and hard-wiring wherever possible. My whole system has been built, very successfully, around the principles of 'keeping it simple'.
However, that doesn't mean to say that slotting a high-quality mains regenerator into the equation might not improve things even further. It's something that I'll have to investigate at some point in future! :)
Marco.
P.S I've just read the usual 'totally missing the point' idiocy and inability to read properly what's written in front of them, from the usual suspects, on your other favourite forum. If you like, I could dissect what's written there, highlight their numerous errors, and explain where they have failed to grasp the point (due to not following properly what's already been written here on the subject), but I fear that no matter what I do, their agendas and pigheadedness won't allow them to accept any validity in the points I've raised, with regard to hard-wiring and vibration control.
Therefore, it's probably best to let them wallow in their inanity - a skill which, over some time, they have honed to perfection ;)
MikeMusic
02-10-2012, 09:49
I've just bough a mains regenerator, which has delayed my immediate need to sort out my mains as I am VERY impressed with it, but I'm guessing it will be some time around Christmas
James
I have a PPP. Sure it does a good job.
All the *other* things I have done to the mains has also improved sound, some by huge amounts
The only thing that puts me off mains regenerators is that all the extra electronics and connections it puts in the supply path, raising impedance along the way, rather goes against my purist principles of minimising the former and hard-wiring wherever possible.
Just one point of clarification, Marco. The best regenerators, like my PS Audio, actually lower the output impedance compared with the wall outlet. They achieve this from being active devices.
Sure, Martin, I get that. However, I also know that the more sockets and switches one has in-line with the supply, raises impedance, therefore a largely hard-wired set up, such as mine, minus said sockets and switches, should from that aspect, have a lower impedance.
The genuine effect you mention of the PS Audio unit lowering output impedance, due to being an active device, however, perhaps outweighs its heavy use of sockets and switches. That is why, unless my mains is particularly bad (as seems not to be the case), I'm unsure whether I would reap an overall benefit, sonically, by using a mains regeneration device, simply because it complicates the supply path...
It would certainly be an interesting one to test at some point :)
Marco.
Sovereign
02-10-2012, 11:33
You're welcome, James.
No, not at all. In fact, 30mm would be way too thick and inflexible to route anywhere! I'd stick with 15 or 20mm, as it'll still be very bulky, but a lot easier to work with than 30mm stuff.
Proper mains regenerators are worthwhile and can be very effective devices, although their effectiveness depends on how bad (noisy/distorted) the mains electricity is in your area. Aside from that, however, you will also gain the benefit of the generator effectively acting as a high-quality distribution block, which decouples your system from the wall (and the harmful effects of vibrational energy I discussed earlier).
Of course, I'm not talking about vibration that you'll be able to sense normally, by touching the wall or whatever (which is ridiculous, unless you have a serious problem), but sub-level vibration continually present in all structures, caused by all manner of things, such as for example, the continuing rumble of traffic, particularly if you live near a main road, resulting in walls vibrating in sympathy with that, at a sub-level which is picked up by any cables coupled to this source of vibration. There is also the issue of airborne vibration to consider. I mean, really, is anyone stupid enough to believe that our audio equipment lives in a perfect sonic environment?
Think about why properly designed equipment supports work, and what they protect equipment against. Does you kit sound good just sat on the floor, or much better when properly supported on racks? Well, vibration doesn't just travel through the floor... The trouble is, unless a phenomenon fits with someone's belief system, scientific or otherwise, the dogmatic and simple-minded will only seek to ridicule it, rather than challenge their belief system and further investigate the phenomenon. Remaining within their comfort zones and pooh-poohing previously unconsidered phenomena, is much easier (and rest assured that here I'm not talking about you) :rolleyes:
The only thing that puts me off mains regenerators is that all the extra electronics and connections it puts in the supply path, raising impedance along the way, rather goes against my purist principles of minimising the former and hard-wiring wherever possible. My whole system has been built, very successfully, around the principles of 'keeping it simple'.
However, that doesn't mean to say that slotting a high-quality mains regenerator into the equation might not improve things even further. It's something that I'll have to investigate at some point in future! :)
Marco.
P.S I've just read the usual 'totally missing the point' idiocy and inability to read properly what's written in front of them, from the usual suspects, on your other favourite forum. If you like, I could dissect what's written there, highlight their numerous errors, and explain where they have failed to grasp the point (due to not following properly what's already been written on the subject), but I fear that no matter what I do, their agendas and pigheadedness won't allow them to accept any validity in the points I've raised, with regard to hard-wiring and vibration control.
Therefore, it's probably best to let them wallow in their inanity - a skill which, over some time, they have honed to perfection ;)
Thanks for this. To clarify I am needing to fit a 30m run from the incoming tails to my house to my hifi room. Are you recommending 15-20 mm armoured? If that is the case it would save me a shed load of money.
Thanks
Sovereign
02-10-2012, 11:36
James
I have a PPP. Sure it does a good job.
All the *other* things I have done to the mains has also improved sound, some by huge amounts
That is what I am expecting to find,different approaches to a similar problem, it's good to find someone who have carried out both installs together.
Thanks for this. To clarify I am needing to fit a 30m run from the incoming tails to my house to my hifi room. Are you recommending 15-20 mm armoured?
15 or 20mm² armoured, yes. It's more than ample for the job :)
Incidentally, Roy Riches is a friend of mine, and has visited my home, as he has those of very good friends of mine. I know exactly what his principles are on optimising the mains set-up for a hi-fi system; indeed I have practiced much of it at some length, although I've now refined his approach (and that originally of Russ Andrews) to suit my own individual preferences.
Whilst wishing to remain as modest as possible, you'll struggle to find anyone who's experimented more with the mains supply, and its effect on the audio performance of hi-fi systems, than I have!! ;)
Marco.
I also know that the more sockets and switches one has in-line with the supply, raises impedance, therefore a largely hard-wired set up, such as mine, minus said sockets and switches, should from that aspect, have a lower impedance.
If we look at the insertion of a regenerator into a non-hardwired system, it will normally replace the mains distribution block. My P10 takes a standard IEC cable in (a Furukawa 2.6 in my case), and offers 9 unswitched sockets on the back for powering components. It therefore behaves as a distribution block and each component plugs directly in with its own power cable. There is no higher count of switches or plug/socket interfaces.
The way my regenerator works, with a massive reservoir of capacitive and magnetic storage, the output impedance offered at each socket is lower than the incoming mains. Further to that, there are 5 zones, each isolating the component from all the other zones allowing analogue and digital components to be kept separate from each other.
So for most setups there is no insertion loss in using a regenerator, only gains in terms of the 'ideal' low impedance waveform offered to each component, each isolated from the other.
Certainly it's a complex solution inside the box, but externally the system connections are no more complex than before.
Sovereign
02-10-2012, 12:23
15 or 20mm² armoured, yes. It's more than ample for the job :)
Incidentally, Roy Riches is a friend of mine, and has visited my home, as he has those of very good friends of mine. I know exactly what his principles are on optimising the mains set-up for a hi-fi system; indeed I have practiced much of it at some length, although I've now refined his approach (and that originally of Russ Andrews) to suit my own individual preferences.
Whilst wishing to remain as modest as possible, you'll struggle to find anyone who's experimented more with the mains supply, and its effect on the audio performance of hi-fi systems, than I have!! ;)
Marco.
Roy came to my house earlier on in the year, a really top chap and as keen as mustard to help. He ran various tests on my incoming mains and so have one of the Sparks that work for me, on the whole the mains coming into my house
is in pretty good order and fairly quite. However the regenerator I installed was still to great effect, day or night. Give it a go if you get the chance.
MikeMusic
02-10-2012, 12:27
Roy came to my house earlier on in the year, a really top chap and as keen as mustard to help. He ran various tests on my incoming mains and so have one of the Sparks that work for me, on the whole the mains coming into my house
is in pretty good order and fairly quite. However the regenerator I installed was still to great effect, day or night. Give it a go if you get the chance.
I'd be interested to know how good or bad my mains is
We are down a cul de sac off a little country lane with the power coming in on poles. So I may be stuck with some attributes
So for most setups there is no insertion loss in using a regenerator, only gains in terms of the 'ideal' low impedance waveform offered to each component, each isolated from the other.
Indeed, Martin. However, my set-up is not most set-ups - far from it, hence the thread title!
Remember, that in my hard-wired set-up, the dedicated mains spur doesn't even feature a consumer unit, nor any associated MCBs, RCDs, RCBOs, or any fuses of that type, which act as a HUGE sonic 'bottleneck', never mind anything else usually considered as normal. All that exists is a junction box, where the incoming mains supply cable (25mm² armoured SWA), from the meter and CU downstairs, is directly hard-wired to the Furukawa cables powering my valve amp and mains distribution block! :eek: ;)
Yes, it's not the last word in safety (!) and I choose to take the necessary risks of running such a set-up (NO-ONE ELSE SHOULD EVEN ATTEMPT THIS!) but you need to hear the sonic effect with a hi-fi system, achieved by using that type of set-up, in order to appreciate how the results would differ from the usual alternatives, yours being one of them.
Certainly it's a complex solution inside the box...
Indeed, and so we also have to consider the effect of the power supply path going through all the complex circuitry in your PS Audio unit (the sonic benefits of which in your system are undeniable) versus a hard-wired set-up, such as mine. Like I said, the comparison would be interesting, which is why at some point I need to try a quality mains regenerator in my system, in order to assess whether or not, sonically, it would be a retrograde step :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
02-10-2012, 12:34
my hard-wired set-up, my dedicated mains spur doesn't even feature a consumer unit, nor any MCBs, RCDs, RCBOs, or any fuses of that type within it
Marco.
Do you have mains into the building to a board with circuit breakers - and nothing *after* that for the hifi set up ?
Sovereign
02-10-2012, 12:37
Remember, that in my hard-wired set-up, the dedicated mains spur doesn't even feature a consumer unit, nor any associated MCBs, RCDs, RCBOs, or any fuses of that type, which act as a HUGE sonic 'bottleneck', never mind anything else usually considered as normal. All that exists is a junction box, where the incoming mains supply cable (25mm² armoured SWA), from the meter and CU downstairs, is directly hard-wired to the Furukawa cables powering my valve amp and mains distribution block! :eek: ;)
Yes, it's not the last word in safety, and I choose to take the necessary risks of running such a set-up (NO-ONE ELSE SHOULD EVEN ATTEMPT THIS!) but you need to hear the sonic effect, achieved by that type of set-up, in order to appreciate how the results would differ from the usual alternatives, yours being one of them.
I may have missed it when I read the whole thread a couple of weeks ago.
If one end of your 25mm armoured is to your hifi, what is at the other end of the armoured cable? Does it by pass a CU altogether and go straight into a Henley block to your house tails?:scratch:
Hi Mike,
Effectively, yes! :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
02-10-2012, 12:41
Hi Mike,
Effectively, yes! :)
Marco.
Ah good.
So no likelyhood of fried Marco, house and street any time soon then
:)
Hi James,
If one end of your 25mm armoured is to your hifi, what is at the other end of the armoured cable?
The connection from the incoming mains supply (from the substation) at my meter and CU downstairs. From there, the armoured cable in question runs along the side of the house, through the wall on the outside, and into my listening room upstairs, where it meets the junction box, powering my system.
I trust that the set-up I have in place is clearer now :)
I should also mention that all my mains leads are fitted with fused 13A plugs, as is all my equipment fitted with its internal case fuse(s). The dedicated mains supply feeding my hi-fi system is also shut down, when I'm away for any length of time, and the system disconnected.
Marco.
Sovereign
02-10-2012, 16:12
Thanks
sq225917
02-10-2012, 16:27
Hi Mike,
Effectively, yes! :)
Marco.
Don't you have to have a fuse/safety between what comes in from street and any wire running in your house. (In addition to the 100amp or whatever you main fuse is). Or am I not quite understanding your set-up?
No, it's more that I didn't mention it... :eyebrows:
There is a 100A service fuse in-line with the incoming mains supply. It was upgraded from 80A to 100A, a few years ago by my local electricity supplier when we had a power shower fitted, which coincidentally resulted in a notable sonic improvement from my system (due to further lowering the impedance) :)
Marco.
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