View Full Version : Listener fatigue
So I've rebuilt my old Naim based class A hi-fi and replaced it with a dac and computer audio setup and a class D amp. While it sounds far better in terms of soundstage, separation and spacial placement and musicality (cough) I have some problems with the treble. After listening to music with a lot of hi hats or vocals I notice my ears a bit rather than just relaxing and I'm trying to work out the cause. So a couple of reasons I think are:-
1.The Naim somehow filters the higher frequencies, people talk about the top end and vocals being silky with Naim.
2.My muddy class A Denon AV amp was masking some of the top end.
3.The metallic tweeters in my Monitor audio silver 8i's have always been harsh, I just haven't noticed before.
4.Computer audio + class D amp creates a digital sounding system.
I found an interesting document while googling the problem:-
http://www.teachmeaudio.com/production/mixing/4-techniques/10-audio-spectrum
So I've got a couple of things I'm planning on trying:-
1.Run an eq or filter on my audio player to reduce the 3khz band. (done)
http://osxdaily.com/2012/05/18/equalizer-for-all-audio-mac-os-x/
2.Add some sort of analogue component into my system to make it warmer? tube pre-amp? expensive!
3.Demo some speakers with a softer tweeter:-
http://www.epos-acoustics.com/products/epic-5/
purite audio
05-09-2012, 13:35
Try turning the tweeters so that they do not directly face you, ie not toed in, output is generally far less off axis, also do you sit against the rear wall, if you do try some absorption behind your head.
Keith.
StanleyB
05-09-2012, 13:36
The Bushmaster was partly designed to counter act that problem. You tried the Bushmaster already but I guess that you didn't pick up on it when you did your comparison between the two DACs you had on trial. The frequency band from the Bushmaster is not enhanced in any way as far as the tops is concerned.
A lot of people get attracted to the enhanced treble in some DACs which give the impression of a cleaner clearer and more detailed signal. But in reality it's a lack of low frequency detail in the signal that gives that impression. The enhanced treble does get fatiguing after a while.
I first noticed this problem when I had a Benchmark DAC1. The bass on my NS1000M was hardly moving but the mids and treble were ear piercing. On my HD800 headphones the same thing happens when used with most headamps and DACs. This has caused many HD800 owners to quickly part with their headphones.
You might have to try a set of phono leads that are tops shy. Or you can try soldering a small value capacitor at the output end of the phono leads just before the plug. It would be a case of trying different values from 1uF or lower.
Hi Giles,
Ive been through exactly the same thing myself and have now got it just right for my ears and room.
Here's what I did:
- Bought a Bushmaster DAC, which has a very smooth top end, compared to my old DacMagic.
- Reduced the speaker treble output a bit by adding an extra resistor in series with the tweeter.
- Played around with the EQ of my music player (JRiver). This involved dropping the level a few db at around 1-3 KHz to reduce the slight mid-forward balance.
I used a RTA program and decent external microphone on my tablet to check that the resulting response was nice and flat at the seating position. Sound is more laid back, not so exciting, but more natural and less fatigueing. Result :). Maybe it's not the done thing, HiFi wise, but probably saved me ££££s by not having to change kit.
p.s. I did have some MA speakers a while back, but they had to go. Too forward for extended listening :(
So I've rebuilt my old Naim based class A hi-fi and replaced it with a dac and computer audio setup and a class D amp. While it sounds far better in terms of soundstage, separation and spacial placement and musicality (cough) I have some problems with the treble. After listening to music with a lot of hi hats or vocals I notice my ears a bit rather than just relaxing and I'm trying to work out the cause. So a couple of reasons I think are:-
1.The Naim somehow filters the higher frequencies, people talk about the top end and vocals being silky with Naim.
2.My muddy class A Denon AV amp was masking some of the top end.
3.The metallic tweeters in my Monitor audio silver 8i's have always been harsh, I just haven't noticed before.
4.Computer audio + class D amp creates a digital sounding system.
I found an interesting document while googling the problem:-
http://www.teachmeaudio.com/production/mixing/4-techniques/10-audio-spectrum
So I've got a couple of things I'm planning on trying:-
1.Run an eq or filter on my audio player to reduce the 3khz band. (done)
http://osxdaily.com/2012/05/18/equalizer-for-all-audio-mac-os-x/
2.Add some sort of analogue component into my system to make it warmer? tube pre-amp? expensive!
3.Demo some speakers with a softer tweeter:-
http://www.epos-acoustics.com/products/epic-5/
I haven't heard any Naim for ages but cannot remember anyone say "the top end and vocals being silky with Naim" sort of the opposite. IIR
Very interesting, I'm using soundflower so I can plumb in any AU plugin, I'm going to try a few of these:-
http://getthatprosound.com/16-of-the-best-saturation-plugins-in-the-world/
I'm afraid regarding the bushmaster I found the treble too prominent and the problem was even worse, especially with my poor spdif sources. The young is a different beast in terms of soundstage and the treble, but then it's stack load of cash. The bass range on the bushmaster was superb I would say that.. I'm going to have a wiggle around with my speaker positions and I've bought some focus rings too for the speakers so the quest continues.
g.
awkwardbydesign
05-09-2012, 14:15
Giles, I'd go with point No.4, plus point No. 3. I have a little T-amp, and although it's great for analysis, I find it very fatiguing after a while. I also prefer analogue over digital, valves over SS, class A over class B, etc. So take my comments in context.
Many reasons for fatique it something I worked hard on in the years mostly via trail and error to get right and made lots of mistakes on the way
All the suggestions given are good but might be worth exploring a few other options
Think about your room use some pictures and carpets to help defuse the sound
I found using felt (thicker the better) around the tweeter could really help with defractions when using standard speakers
Cabling might play apart too The Mark Grant cables are very neutral and clean and many people use them in some really great systems
Some speakers are known for their harsh treble if you every buy again hear them in your home first and play music that you know cause issues for you.
It can be a long road getting rid of htese issues but they can be cured
purite audio
05-09-2012, 15:18
Cables and tweeter material won't make any difference, dacs should have a perfectly flat frequency response, the Young certainly does, so it won't be that, if you room is sparsely furnished, perhaps if you have a hard floor or bare walls, that could easily exaggerate the HF, if you try a plug in use one that knocks a few db off at 6-8 kHz and report back.
KR Keith.
If you can measure your room ,that would reveal all!
Audioman
05-09-2012, 16:13
1.The Naim somehow filters the higher frequencies, people talk about the top end and vocals being silky with Naim.
2.My muddy class A Denon AV amp was masking some of the top end.
3.The metallic tweeters in my Monitor audio silver 8i's have always been harsh, I just haven't noticed before.
4.Computer audio + class D amp creates a digital sounding system.
2,3 and 4 probably. Can't remember a Naim being silky smooth. Would have expected it to add to the fatiguing sound.
StanleyB
05-09-2012, 16:18
Steady state frequency response is more often than not going to show up flat on a scope. But music is dynamic and there is when the frequency response can be far from flat. Excessive highs is quite common in amplified outputs stages in a DAC that then have to use a Sallen-Key or MFB anti aliasing filter. Those kind of filters can easily produce a harsh type of sound if the output stage has been set up for maximum detail and the output uses opamps. FETs transistors and valves were the most obvious cures to the problem, but unamplified outputs are now finding their way into the market with the introduction of DAC chips from several manufacturers.
Cables and tweeter material won't make any difference, dacs should have a perfectly flat frequency response, the Young certainly does, so it won't be that, if you room is sparsely furnished, perhaps if you have a hard floor or bare walls, that could easily exaggerate the HF, if you try a plug in use one that knocks a few db off at 6-8 kHz and report back.
KR Keith.
If you can measure your room ,that would reveal all!
Yes, don't spend a penny on cables until youve sorted out your problem. The speakers make the biggest difference to the sound IMHO.
You could either try some different speakers or play around with the EQ at the player. Being able to measure the problem would be very useful.
If I had a pound for every " I've got MA speakers and they are too bright/painful " thread that I've read, I'd be quite a bit richer than I am now...:)
purite audio
05-09-2012, 16:34
Speakers/ room does make the biggest difference, hopefully the manufacturer has made the speakers with as flat an FR as possible ,and will have measured them in an anechoic chamber, it would be interesting to get hold of the fr graph for you loudspeakers.
But however the speakers measure at the factory they will be changed by your room, in room measurements are very revealing.
Keith.
Source: custom NAS --> Dell mini 9 squeezeplay -> soundflower eq --> m2tech young --> GD1500HD
Amp:tbi audio millenia battery powered --> naim cable
Speakers: Monitor audio silver 8i
This is your problem IMO - Speakers: Monitor audio silver 8i
Have a read of this - http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=356284&postcount=34
from this thread - http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=356284#post356284
MA's have been discussed a lot as Martin has stated, they are fine if you like their sound (lot's of people do) and I will probably invoke ridicule for saying this, but I think as your listening and appreciation of Hi-Fi/music matures, you grow out of what Monitor Audio is able to offer the serious listener. IMO Monitor Audio do the WAF more than enjoyable sound, especially if you like to listen to music for more than an hour. If you listen with your ears and not your eyes, I think they have limited long term appeal.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/hidingunderchair.gif
hifinutt
05-09-2012, 17:25
having listened to many class d amps i don`t find them bright , most recently enjoyed a fab homemade hypex with some vivids
some black ravioli under the speakers can help as well as all the other suggestions
Cables and tweeter material won't make any difference, dacs should have a perfectly flat frequency response, the Young certainly does, so it won't be that, if you room is sparsely furnished, perhaps if you have a hard floor or bare walls, that could easily exaggerate the HF, if you try a plug in use one that knocks a few db off at 6-8 kHz and report back.
KR Keith.
If you can measure your room ,that would reveal all!
Did I say anything about DAC's
With regards to the rest I beg to differ For instence there is a well known cable with a very harsh treble on most systems, whilst intially impressive utimatly tiring
With regards to second differaction this also causes harshness which in our systems due to their deisns are not a issue
Agree around the mearsurements
I was just suggesting their factors room being one of the biggest
I was basising my views on personal experience when I had the Opus 3 even though the speakers are considered soft in the treble I had listening fatigue I did quite a few upgrades to get rid of the issue it was driving me crazy hence my empathy of this sitiuation Once I put the felt around the tweeters I could listen without fatique anytime I took them off I could not, they might of been another way to deal with this issue but believe me I tried everything else
Thankfully I no longer have that as issue as it was a visually horrible solution
Wow thanks for all the responses. It's good to hear that I'm not the only person with these kinds of setup issues.. AOS really does have a good atmos compared to other audio forums which seem to turn into complete fights over just about anything from grammar to what music someone wants to play! Fact is I hadn't listened to my cd player for 6 months so computer audio really is the way forward for me, over sticking an ipod into a minijack to phono cable that is.
So back to the job in hand. I did give my room some measurements and it's these, and I've attached a photo.
[--- hifi---- ]
| |
| 2.8hi |
| |4m
| |
| |
[--3.5 m---- ]
I'll be trying all the "free" options and will report back on the best au plugins before I go and demo some new speakers but I suspect the monitor audios are probably the weak link in the chain now.
Oh one thing I did find in my last flat that had a low ceiling, may be 2 metres is that the music sounded totally different depending whether I stood up or sat down with weird booming sounds if I was in the wrong place, so I've certainly experienced first hand the difference a room can make. Not fatiguing but certainly horrible to listen to.
Excessive highs is quite common in amplified outputs stages in a DAC that then have to use a Sallen-Key or MFB anti aliasing filter. Those kind of filters can easily produce a harsh type of sound if the output stage has been set up for maximum detail and the output uses opamps. FETs transistors and valves were the most obvious cures to the problem, but unamplified outputs are now finding their way into the market with the introduction of DAC chips from several manufacturers.
I don't quite know what you mean by unamplified? With modern delta/sigma DACs the output stages and filters are already built into the DAC chip, and these have been in the market for decades now. I think designers feel the need to introduce a needless extra stage just to say that they actually designed something. Best thing you can do with the majority of delta/sigma DACs is to use a resistor and a capacitor, nothing more... DIYers have been doing this for years!
I remembered something actually, I bought a mini-t for my bedroom setup last week and I found the treble too much as well, but the overall sound worlds apart from my 30 year old class A that I've had for years. I just used the eq in winamp to take the edge of things there so I wonder how much of my problems relate to the amp choice in my main system. I probably need to spend an evening listening to everything without my new amp in there. I expect I'll miss the detail now though, once you've tasted the champers it's difficult to go back to the cheap cava.
realysm42
05-09-2012, 22:21
Too much of anything in the sound range makes it Lambrini to me!
Balance is key, just because you lacked something before doesn't mean you need to over-compensate...
I'm really glad I never went the MA route from the feedback people have given on here.
StanleyB
05-09-2012, 22:58
I don't quite know what you mean by unamplified? With modern delta/sigma DACs the output stages and filters are already built into the DAC chip, and these have been in the market for decades now. I think designers feel the need to introduce a needless extra stage just to say that they actually designed something. Best thing you can do with the majority of delta/sigma DACs is to use a resistor and a capacitor, nothing more... DIYers have been doing this for years!
It's quite clear you haven't got a clue what you are on about. I suggest that you read up on the implementation documents from the likes of Texas Instruments and Wolfson with regards to the various Delta Sigma chips that they manufacture. Each chip requires a different kind of output configuration. You certainly wouldn't get away with putting a capacitor and resistor at the output of a WM8741 or PCM1792 and expect to get a usable signal that can be sent directly to the input of an amplifier. On top of that, the filters built into some DAC chips are digital filters. That's completely different from the external analogue filter requirement.
I remembered something actually, I bought a mini-t for my bedroom setup last week and I found the treble too much as well, but the overall sound worlds apart from my 30 year old class A that I've had for years. I just used the eq in winamp to take the edge of things there so I wonder how much of my problems relate to the amp choice in my main system. I probably need to spend an evening listening to everything without my new amp in there. I expect I'll miss the detail now though, once you've tasted the champers it's difficult to go back to the cheap cava.
The Mini-T's seem to work particularly well with classic speakers such as my DM2's.
So I've rebuilt my old Naim based class A hi-fi....
But Naim amps aren't class A, they are A/B.
people talk about the top end and vocals being silky with Naim.
Not really - people usually make the opposite criticism.
2.My muddy class A Denon AV amp was masking some of the top end.
I very much doubt that the Denon actually runs in much class A either - none of the ones I've ever come across did.
maxrob200
06-09-2012, 05:00
IMHO, some combinations of equipment and cables make the sound more "Hi" then "Fi".
Result: A relentless tiring sound which sounds impressive at first listen but fatiques the listener very quickly
Sounds great in showrooms but certainly not for long-term enjoyment
IMHO, some combinations of equipment and cables make the sound more "Hi" then "Fi".
Result: A relentless tiring sound which sounds impressive at first listen but fatiques the listener very quickly
Sounds great in showrooms but certainly not for long-term enjoyment
QED... (oops) :D
Giles, Naim+Monitor Audio will give you exactly the sound you described.StanleyB is right.
Most components nowdays are voiced to sound nice ina showroom but tiring at home after some time.You could audition new speakers and/or replace your pre but how can you be sure everything is fine? You need to experiment a lot and 2-3 days of equipment loan just wont do.The cheapest (not that cheap,mind you) to kinda fix the problem and since you are not using a turntable,is to get a secondhand dsp room correction device.
Copland used to make one as-well-as Odyssey.Check ebey for both. You could go for sound absorbing panels etc,which in my opinion is the better way,but don't be surprised if in the end will cost you much more than the dsp correction device.
bkgengwe
06-09-2012, 07:51
i had a similar experience. after I bought kimber cables, I was excited by the level of detail, the space between instruments and the tight bass and and...but I noticed that after a while I couldn't listen to music anymore, I just wanted to switch off the music, after a few more days, my ears actually pained after listening to just one track!!!the horror of it all! I tried to change the speakers, first KEF's, then Q acoustics and finally the Celestions, but the problem didnot go away, I changed cdp, from rotel to NAD, then put in a rotel DAC/sound processsor but things did not improve. then I tried room treatments, a rug here, thick curtains there a picture on the wall but I gave up listening to music, it was too painful. then I changed cables, first QED, at first music became listenable but after a while everything seemed too congested and the bass was boomy and overexaggerated, and did not enjoy the music again, I gave up on hi fi altogether, I just wanted my money back!!!! then I remembered my first cables that I had classified as cheap, but I recallled that I could listen for a long time before I changed to kimber. in came the supra classical 2.5 cables, not expensive and not in your face, no frequency overemphasis, nothing remarkably outstanding until you listen for long periods of time, to whatever music. I'm back to enjoying my music again.my point is components that are initially outstanding often are tiring and not listenable ove rthe long run
@synsei I've got a mini-t in my kitchen powered from a squeezebox analogue out and connected to dali zensors wall mounted. No issues with fatigue there as it's the kit I listen to most in actual fact. I might try swapping them into my bedroom setup and see if that makes a difference. I will find the source of my treble problems, even if it kills me!
I'm pretty sure it's your MA speakers Giles, sorry. If you hook them up to the Mini-T I predict a rather raucous performance will ensue. The Mini-T can sound analytical and harsh with the wrong speakers... :eyebrows:
Yea in my lounge I do have a different type of chip amp but I am suspecting the ma's have to go. They have served me well over the years though. I've been looking at the rega rs7, ProAc Response D18 and epos epic 5. Time to whip the credit card out methinks.
g.
Do try and arrange a home demo if you are able to Giles for piece of mind. If you are unable to do so I'm sure those with experience of the models you are considering will help guide you in the right direction ;)
As stated earlier in the thread, you could add some in-line resistors to your Tweeters, they're cheap and can easily be removed if they don't solve things, or are no longer required due to other factors.
About 1 to 1.5 ohms should do the trick, much better than sticking a tone control in the path ;)
Heya Will, I have modified the capacitors on the crossover years ago so that is definitely on the cards. Presumably what you are saying is that it's best to keep as much signal going through all the components and deal with the treble as late as possible in the signal path.
I've found a chap that has the rega rs7's and pro-acs so I'm going to demo them on Saturday. The rega's are going for £950 which sounds in budget for me.
g.
As stated earlier in the thread, you could add some in-line resistors to your Tweeters, they're cheap and can easily be removed if they don't solve things, or are no longer required due to other factors.
About 1 to 1.5 ohms should do the trick, much better than sticking a tone control in the path ;)
Yes, this is what I did, as mentioned above. I put something like 3.9 ohms in series and all was well. I purchased a selection from Maplin (5 or 10W wire wound) Cost was about £1.50.
In fact I didn't even need to do any soldering, I just put them in place of the biwire jumper to test it out. I then listened to it and measured the results.
See my thread for details here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18823
I did take a look at the crossover in my Neats, as they don't have a "classic" crossover circuit. In fact, with the Neat circuit, I needed to put the resistor in the 0V side of the circuit.
Bear in mind that a forward balance doesn't necessarily mean that the tweeter level is totally to blame. There may well be issues further down the frequency range as well, that could be tweaked with EQ. You really need to be able to accurately measure the response to see whats going on though.
purite audio
06-09-2012, 13:19
Measure the room, once you see what it is doing then you can think about the possible fixes, also you can use the measurement software to find the best place to site your speakers and you , XTZ room analyser perhaps.
Keith.
Heya Will sorry to bother again, will any of these fit the bill?
http://www.maplin.co.uk/search?criteria=resistor
I think I'll just shut up now.
Heya Will sorry to bother again, will any of these fit the bill?
http://www.maplin.co.uk/search?criteria=resistor
Hi Giles, the ones named 'wirewound' look like the fellows I'm using in a couple of pairs of speakers, although I got mine from 'Wilmslow Audio', they were marked as 1.75 ohm...my electronics knowledge isn't good enough to interpret that into Watts (V=I*R has left me scratching my head) :scratch:
One other point I used mine on bi-wired speakers, so I'm not sure if there are any implications there.
They just bump up the ratio of bass to treble without affecting the signal...much ;)
I think I'll just shut up now.
Hi Martin ...ah it was you that mentioned it earlier, should have given you a name check :)
Sounds like you have more experience on the subject than I :cool:
I just put mine at the +ve terminal of the tweeter and all was well...
@MartinH ah sorry mate I didn't see you post, I think I was typing my response! Exactly the info I need though. I will cycle to maplins tomorrow and purchase some resistors then.
@keith that xtz room analyser is £150 though. I wonder if I can get something to work with a cheap mic.
Ok, I'm back. Strop over :)
If you have a tablet, you can buy a decent RTA software for a few quid. I use Pocket RTA HD for iPad. The iPad built-in mic is OK for rough measurements, but a proper calibrated USB mic is best. I have a Samson Meteor mic (£60) which is one of the only ones to work with the iPad and not need an external PSU/Hub. I also got some mp3 test tones from the internet.
The 5, 7 or 10W wirewound ones are the ones to buy - just grab a selection (2 of each) and have a play. I think I settled on 2.7 ohms myself.
Will, yes I thought that the resistors would go in the +Ve speaker side, but inspection of my crossover circuit showed that they needed to go in the 0V see circuit below. I guess it depends upon your speakers.
http://www.chelsea-bathrooms.co.uk/crossover.jpg
Cheers,
Ok, I'm back. Strop over :)
Will, yes I thought that the resistors would go in the +Ve speaker side, but inspection of my crossover circuit showed that they needed to go in the 0V see circuit below. I guess it depends upon your speakers.
Cheers,
Hi Martin, I have to confess that I did mine with the help of a 'grown up', in this case 'Wilmslow Audio' who are close by and very helpful...
I'd bought a couple of pairs of used Mission 780SE's (bi-wired) with knackered bass drivers, and their advice was to use some Monacor drivers as replacements, however on closer inspection the originals were rated at 6 ohms, the replacements at 8, hence a rather bright sound (i.e. the tweeters were 6 too)...:eek:
£2.00 & about 10 mins later all was sorted with these little fellows, and in the case of the Missions, at the +ve terminal seems to work nicely...:cool:
purite audio
06-09-2012, 16:29
@keith that xtz room analyser is £150 though. I wonder if I can get something to work with a cheap mic.
Giles ask nicely on all the forums and you may be able to borrow one,
KR Keith.
Hi Keith,
Sorry to butt-in, but could you do me a favour and add your approx geographical location to your profile? Everyone needs these details in now.
Cheers, matey! :cool:
Marco.
Looks like there are various android apps that do spectral analysis so I'm going to try them.
Looks like there are various android apps that do spectral analysis so I'm going to try them.
My one concern would be the bandwidth of the mic on an android phone, from what I've read they only cover approx 300hz to 3khz, as their designed for speech, perhaps on a larger tablet with a mic in....:eyebrows:
purite audio
06-09-2012, 19:29
Hi Keith,
Sorry to butt-in, but could you do me a favour and add your approx geographical location to your profile? Everyone needs these details in now.
Cheers, matey! :cool:
Marco.
Done!
Thanks Marco,
KR Keith.
Well an interesting weekend. Went up to London to demo some rega rs7's with my amp and dac with me. Definitely didn't solve my treble problems but nice wide soundstage with those side mounted bass drivers. He had a naim class a amp though so we tried that out and the treble didn't sound harsh so it's definitely the class d amp that is the issue and not the dac, but I kinda already knew that.
He also had some proac d28's which had a totally different sound, even with the class d amp in there the treble sounded fine, at least for the short time I listened to them. So I'm going to have a listen to some d18's to see if they fit the bill. Despite the problems of the top end fatigue I seem to be addicted to the sound of this amp, to my ears it sounded better than the naim. Next week it's resistor time!
Reid Malenfant
09-09-2012, 21:13
He had a naim class a amp though so we tried that out and the treble didn't sound harsh so it's definitely the class d amp that is the issue and not the dac
Naim have never built a class A amplifier, so if someone told you that there Naim amp is class A, then they are talking out of the sphincter ;)
While they may well be AB as I believe Mark mentioned earlier, only about 0.1W per channel (or less) is in class A (frankly I haven't often seen many amps with heatsinking quite that small for the power output - maybe 0.1W is being overly generous :eyebrows:). The rest is in class B, though this should be noticeably superior to just about any class D amp in the extreme treble regions.
What you are probably finding is that the lumpiness of the extreme treble which is caused by the reconstruction filter on the output of the class D amp is exciting the breakup modes of the tweeters on your MA speakers.
Far better to use a soft dome with a class D amp than a hard dome, unless it doesn't go into breakup far above the audio band like a Beryllium tweeter would.
Heya Mark this more my misunderstanding, I just thought all standard hi-fi amps were class a.. Looks like the proacs use a silk dome tweeter. Did like the sound but then again they were 4k's worth of speaker.
Reid Malenfant
09-09-2012, 22:43
Hi Giles, no worries... Just look at the size of the heatsinking...
A real 20W class A amp will have a bigger heatsink than a 200W class AB ;)
In fact a 20W class A amp will look like a humungous amount of aluminium fins, no matter which way you look at it...
I'd expect about 4Kg of aluminium heatsinking, which isn't small :eyebrows:
I have some dali zensor 1's in my kitchen so i'll try them out downstairs as they have the same type of tweeter as their floorstanders and they seem to play nicely with my other chip amp.
The Grand Wazoo
09-09-2012, 23:53
A real 20W class A amp will have a bigger heatsink than a 200W class AB. In fact a 20W class A amp will look like a humungous amount of aluminium fins.......expect about 4Kg of aluminium heatsinking.....
25 watts of Class A Mark Levinson (and well known for overheating!):
http://www.highendclassics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/marklevinsonml2_latemodel.jpg
jeepers that is a beast! I hooked up a free spectral analyser and tried some pink noise last night, wasn't totally flat, 6-7hertz were louder.
I hooked up a free spectral analyser and tried some pink noise last night, wasn't totally flat, 6-7hertz were louder.
I guess that you mean 6-7 kHz - can you apply EQ to that area to flatten it out and then listen to the results?
I may be wrong (I usually am) but the forward balance may not just be due to the extreme treble. Also, isn't your speaker a 3way? You may be able to reduce the level of the tweeter AND the next one down to address the balance without major surgery.
icehockeyboy
10-09-2012, 11:29
I use a class D Lyngdorf semi digital integrated, before that the power amp only version of it, never had any treble problems at all.
Interesting, you using the Quad 22 L2 listed in your profile? They have fabric tweeters. I'm going to have a chat to some of the people on the US forum that have the same amp I'm using and see what they are running with it..
Listening fatigue is a funny thing, it seems to only happen to people over 30.
I think the dirty little secret is as we age we don't listen to music for really extended periods of time as often as we did when we where younger. Not being able to except we just get tired of music faster we blame it on our perfectly good gear.
True there are some systems with terrable peeks in the upper ranges but few would bother a younger listener.
So much of this has been made to sell very very expensive fixes to a problem that may just be in our minds.
The Grand Wazoo
10-09-2012, 20:29
Never had the problem myself - is it just a less painful way of saying "I don't really like the sound of my hi-fi"?
Reid Malenfant
10-09-2012, 20:33
25 watts of Class A Mark Levinson (and well known for overheating!):
http://www.highendclassics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/marklevinsonml2_latemodel.jpg
Ah, now that's what I was attempting to get accross :eyebrows: Not exactly a small amount of heatsinking needed...
Cheers Chris :)
I think the dirty little secret is as we age we don't listen to music for really extended periods of time as often as we did when we where younger.
Interesting thought there Jeff and I reckon there could be a lot of truth in that. However, in my case I have in fact turned full circle and now play music more than I have ever done in my entire life (I'm 53). My peaks were from around 14 to 18 and probably again in the last 2-3 years, but it's gone off the scale in the last 12 months, thanks to all the kind peeps on AoS, who changed my entire system for me without them (or me) even realising it was happening :lol: So Chris I think is bang on about not being happy with how a system sounds. I'm blissfully happy now in my Harbeth/Rega heaven.
Can I just say as an aside too Jeff that I really enjoy reading your posts. Always interesting, often thought provoking and sometimes controversial but above all very entertaining.
:cool:
Are we distinguishing here between fatigue and boredom? Fatigue for me is when the sound is unpleasant. Almost certainly down to distortion - could be the source, amp or speakers. Boredom is when it is just not intersting to listen to. Normally becasue the sound is too dull in the top and lacking in fast transients and dynamics.
No, I'm talking about normal aging and it's effects on the mind as we get older most people listen to music less often and over shorter periods of time.
When we are young we listen to music more often than our parents and they listen more often then then grandma and grandma.
Think about it my stepfather Tom spent thousands of dollars on audio and after 35 never used it much. When I asked him why as a late teen he said it's part of getting older.
You just can't focus on enjoying music for more than an hour and then it just becomes annoying .
Are there exceptions of course but how meany 60 year olds still rock out for hours a day? very few if we are being honest.
I can honestly say Jeff that I listen to more music now than I did as a teenager, does that make me weird? :D
I can honestly say Jeff that I listen to more music now than I did as a teenager, does that make me weird? :D
yes:lol:
Reid Malenfant
10-09-2012, 22:31
Maybe what you are refering to is more a having kids & being married Jeff? Not having the time...
I have been listening to music for well over eight hours now :)
Lots of new stuff to, but some that I have heard previously. In all honesty I don't know what it is, but as we get older out high frequency hearing deteriorates, so a metalic tweeter doing it's worst should be less of a problem than when we are younger in all honesty :eyebrows:
Maybe what you are refering to is more a having kids & being married Jeff? Not having the time...
I have been listening to music for well over eight hours now :)
Lots of new stuff to, but some that I have heard previously. In all honesty I don't know what it is, but as we get older out high frequency hearing deteriorates, so a metalic tweeter doing it's worst should be less of a problem than when we are younger in all honesty :eyebrows:
The tweeter thing is my point it dosen't bother a young listener but as we age sound becomes more of an ire-taint to us.
Maybe not all of us but things change in our mental make up as we age.
:mental: It's just normal life for most of us. but that doesn't mean all of us.
Reid Malenfant
10-09-2012, 22:42
Hmmm, you may have something there Jeff, while I know our upper frequency of hearing tends to decrease, it may well be possible that peaks stand out more :scratch:
You never know, but at least we got your speaker sorted :D
Stratmangler
10-09-2012, 22:45
Rough sounding tweeters set my tinnitus off something chronic :eek:
Reid Malenfant
10-09-2012, 22:50
Rough sounding tweeters set my tinnitus off something chronic :eek:
You have my sympathy Chris :) Only ever suffered the once for a couple of days after a particularly earth shaking gig, it wasn't very pleasant :(
Hmmm, you may have something there Jeff, while I know our upper frequency of hearing tends to decrease, it may well be possible that peaks stand out more :scratch:
You never know, but at least we got your speaker sorted :D
Very true, I think AOS members are that exception any way.
I mean people over 40 that are here on the forum are the 2% who still seriously listen to music. That in it's self makes for a lopsided view of the larger majority.
:cool: Here's to us odd balls!
I can honestly say Jeff that I listen to more music now than I did as a teenager, does that make me weird? :D
+1
I tried my dali zenzor 1's in the same room and they looked to have 2 bands, 6 and 7 khz. I've tried my av amp also and I'm pretty sure the effect is reduced but it's still present. I've sold my naim cd player now so I can't do a pink noise test with that but I've done some more comparisons between my new amp and the denon and I'm definitely not going back. In fact I'm going to buy some components to mod it from this site http://www.hificollective.co.uk/. Resistors from maplin this week and demoing the proacs after that.
I used to run a Tact SDA 2175 class D with Snell and Audionote type J and had no fatigue/treble problems.
Hmm audionote are literally based up the road from me! V tempting to have a go at building one of their kits.
Hmm audionote are literally based up the road from me! V tempting to have a go at building one of their kits.
If you have the skills I would go for it, the type E is a loverly sounding speaker.
icehockeyboy
13-09-2012, 10:12
Interesting, you using the Quad 22 L2 listed in your profile? They have fabric tweeters. I'm going to have a chat to some of the people on the US forum that have the same amp I'm using and see what they are running with it..
And prior to the Quads, I had the original metal tweetered PMC FB1's, but had them "+'d" for about £350' which just entailed having soft dome tweeters installed to replace the metal ones.
At the time I persuaded myself the new tweeters made an astounding difference, but now a bit older and wiser, I'd say there was a modest improvement, probably not £350 worth! :eyebrows:
@gilesw
I'm considering the Zensor 1s to be paired with Aptastic t-amp also and was wondering if they're a good match? What is the performance in general with dali/mini-t combination?
Cheers
I did not notice if anyone mentioned isolation feet under sources and preamp to tame some brightness and fatigue. A support of softer material can really tame the highs and can be done cheaply. For a low cost solution try vibrapods or similar under the cd and dac in place of existing feet. Lots to experiment with there and can go the DIY route too. Every source, from a $500 dac to a $10k dac or CDP will change based on type of isolation. The stock isolation under even many expensive components can sometimes be just garbage and won't let the gear shine. However, if the problem is a peaky cable or component or speaker, you can tame some of the issues but never fully eliminate the problem. Sometimes a gear upgrade is more cost effective than upgrading cables and supports and so on. Good luck!
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