Would you purchase an Mdac after reading PF forum.

[Audioman]

The Mdac has had plaudits in many magazines and forums for it's SQ and facilities. As many know there is a long thread on Pink Fish which now is reverting to reported faults and upgrades in the pipeline from the designer.

The problems are probably isolated but point to a worrying trend that echoes a similar pattern with other IAG products. It does appear likely that alternative parts are being substituted in manufacture. Also the designer has ceased to be involved and is providing future upgrades through his own company.

It appears that IAG not wishing to enagage his services in future development are trying to go their own way. Apparantly even going so far as to reverse engineer the design (components and software) to crack code in effect to steal the IP (intelectual property). Apparantly the design is licenced from Lakewest.

Apart from the legal position I believe this does not look good for future reliability. Chinese do have a reputation for stealing designs and likely lack the knowledge for competent digital design at this stage. Frankly do forum members still have confidence in this product or any of the 'British' brands aquired and manufactured by this company. From experience is current production regarded as inferior to the original UK manufactured brands ?

[synsei]

Although I don't talk from personal experience, I'd have a problem with it. I don't think we are seeing the death of the industry here though. All that will happen is that the big brands bought up by the Chinese will gradually disappear as they navigate their rudderless boats over the waterfall. Those influential designers who left to set up their own businesses will find their old customers coming back to them and subsequently their businesses will grow. In many ways it is something to look forward to because it will be a return to the '60's and '70's with a plethora of small concerns making excellent British products.

[synsei]

2001st post ... YAY :cool:

[bobbasrah]

Agree pretty much with what Dave pointed out but with one small codicil to a presumption Paul made....
"Chinese do have a reputation for stealing designs and likely lack the knowledge for competent digital design at this stage". You are kidding, right?
There are some extremely competent guys over in China who are already turning out some stunning products, some of which are truly ahead of the market NOT trailing after it....

PS - Don't look a day over 2000 Dave

[Tim]

I just don't like how it sounds, too bright and forward for my liking so that's the main reason I wouldn't buy one.

Additionally my main system components are British and that's the way I like it right now and I intend to keep it that way if at all possible (apart from my music server of course, not much I can do about that right now).

[Martinh]

I'd love to be able to buy a product like the MDAC - a digital preamp and DAC with remote control etc. but there's not much choice out there.

I don't like the Audiolab sound either, so that's why i'm not tempted.

[sq225917]

Martin, when you say you don't like the Audiolab 'sound' do you mean you didn't like the Mdac, or that you think that a product designed by a designer with no link to a brand, now in its third incarnation and hands of ownership might sound like they did 15 years ago?

Audiolab today has nothing to do with the original brand, other than the legacy designs that remain. The Mdac certainly doesn't share a 'house' sound.

I think it's pretty shitty that IAG are trying to reverse engineer John and Dominik's IP to circumvent their licensing agreement. Hopefully John will source production for a revised design soon.

[WAD62]

I'd love to be able to buy a product like the MDAC - a digital preamp and DAC with remote control etc. but there's not much choice out there.

I don't like the Audiolab sound either, so that's why i'm not tempted.

I can only comment on my personal experience, I've had mine since May and it hasn't missed a beat :)

SBT(EDO)/USB hub/USB isolator/Kimber USB 1/2m/M-DAC (A0.8)/8000P, 8000SX power amps

As for the 'audiolab sound' it's completely different from the DAX it replaced, on my 4th firmware update, with 180 degree data rotation (takes the load off the DAC chips apparently), it has a very full bodied sound, whilst also retaining incredible detail.

To get the best out of it it needs to operate as a pre-amp too, as a stand alone DAC I'm sure there are plenty of adequate alternatives, but when used in Pre-amp/DAC mode it's a winner IMHO ;)

[MCRU]

I think the M-Dac is a superb piece of kit, as to how it sounds, it depends on what it is fed (thanks Nick), internal politics like the situation with the M-Dac have been going on for decades it's just that forums did not exist in the 70's or 80's well not as prominent anyway so stuff is more out in the open these days. I will never get rid of mine and Nick built me a PSU for it and it sounds even better now.

When I get my xlr cables back I am going to connect it to my Rowland power amp direct via balanced and see what that sounds like, should be stonking.

[StanleyB]

Having been at the receiving end of Chinese companies copying products of mine that I designed for my last employer, I can fully understand the anger felt by other British designers who have had a similar experience. It's not easy when you have to submit the schematics and PCB layouts to Chinese engineers, and then find out that one or more of those engineers suddenly vanish and then reappear as owner of a new upstart with cheaper variants of your initial design.

As for problems that show up in a product after it has been launched: I have had my fair share of those over the years. Some can be down to just bad luck whilst others can be attributed to changes made by the engineers in the factory brought on by cost cutting methods such as substitution of components with a reduced specification. I have even been hit with unauthorized design changes that stray from the circuit diagram and are only detected on a populated PCB by pure luck, or after extensive tests to determine why the prototype sounds so much better than the finished product. It's an ongoing problem and I have had to accept it as a way of life for the last two decades.

With regards to the reverse engineering of software: it's another bone of contention. You often have to give those guys in the Far East an unprotected copy of the code so that they can burn it into the chips. Any skilled enough engineer adept at reverse engineering HEX code will soon have it picked apart.

So what do we do? I wish I had the solution, but it's a minefield out there and trusted partners are close to impossible to find.

[sq225917]

You do the sensible thing. You have it made at two separate factories and assemble locally. never give one vendor the full design.

[StanleyB]

I tried that and the two parts did not fit together. Neither would either of them accept blame for the mismatch.

[Paul Hynes]

You really have to make it yourself from verified materials sources. Ok it will be more expensive than the imported goods but at least it should meet your required specification and give you confidence in your products. It’s about time we reinstated our country’s engineering base.

[synsei]

It’s about time we reinstated our country’s engineering base.

+1 :clap:

[Audioman]

You really have to make it yourself from verified materials sources. Ok it will be more expensive than the imported goods but at least it should meet your required specification and give you confidence in your products. It’s about time we reinstated our country’s engineering base.

Precisely. The cost difference is getting less as Chinese labour costs rise. I don't think a premium of say £200 on something in this price range is unacceptable to provide superior quality and reliability. I think most consumers would pay the extra for British made and branded product. The cost of Audiolab is now approaching the prices of the last UK made TAG/Mclaren products any way.

[StanleyB]

It is slowly happening. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19510040 Raspberry PI is doing just that. I am thinking of building one into a DAC once I can figure out the software end of things.

[Tim]

I am thinking of building one into a DAC once I can figure out the software end of things.
What a fantastic idea Stan, a one box solution for streaming, that should prove very popular around here - especially with the demise of the SB Touch :)

[StanleyB]

Not so loud Tim ;).

[WAD62]

What a fantastic idea Stan, a one box solution for streaming, that should prove very popular around here - especially with the demise of the SB Touch :)

...particularly if it could run a software SB player, eg. squeezeplay on android, or the other linux options...the ultimate SB receiver... controllable from a phone...doh! sorry Stan ...;)

[ppat2]

Hi,

I have the Audiolab M-DAC, just a short few weeks now. I have upgraded the firmware to the new LAKE WEST va.08 version.

Did not upgrade due to issues, simply to grab the nifty new features the firmware provides over the original firmware. The upgrade worked like a charm, as have the new features which simplify use of the DAC and make it a much more versatile device.

I have browsed through the articles on pinkfish that are referenced here, but unless I am missing something I don't see what the fuss is about. I see some complaints from a user about some dropouts connecting the device to an optical output that comes from a TV. Not sure why anyone would want to run the output from a TV into the DAC though. Garbage in and garbage out....

As for the long term quality of the M-DAC, that is anyone's guess, the same as pretty much any new design. However, the designers and build team are pretty knowledgeable long term hi-fi manufacturers. For the fact that it is built in China, that in itself for me is a non-issue. Many of the leading hi-fi brands have factories in China now. It's pretty standard.

Maybe not a part of this thread, but as for the sound quality of the M-DAC, I have heard some say it is "bright". That is true in the first few weeks. After that, it really smooths out. The highs are clear with no brightness, and the bass very solid and layered. I've heard that it "lacks bass". That would be a system matching problem, not a characteristic of the DAC.

I had the Rega DAC on loan for 5 weeks from my dealer while I waited for the M-DAC. After 5 weeks, I just could not get the Rega DAC to work in my system. It is "musical" and a good DAC, but a little too thick sounding for my tastes. The M-DAC really trumps it in separation and dynamics and "air". As for brightness, the M-DAC after 3 weeks has cleaner highs and mids than did the Rega after 5 weeks, and much better quality bass. As deep as the Rega in the bass frequencies, but with better definition. In my system the Rega DAC also had some grunge and grain I just could not get rid of, and could not tolerate.

However, both are good DACs and it often comes down to system matching for those of us who are in this price bracket.

One tip for M-DAC users. Make sure the shelf/stand you have under the M-DAC is very solid/dense with good isolation. If your shelf is light or fragile or such, then the M-DAC will pick up on this and the highs may sound bright. The casework is on the light side, and susceptible to vibration. The Rega DAC is less susceptible to this as it's casework is more solid, but it also (in my system) had that graininess that I could not eliminate.

After some experimentation with the existing platforms and isolation devices I have in my system, it has really hit the sweet spot. My system has never sounded so good, and I am listening to as much digital as I am vinyl now.

[sq225917]

They have had some issues with the XO in the dac, John reckons about 1% fail in the first few weeks. 15 of 20,000+ is a reasonable size number, especially if you are part of that 1%.

Just goes to prove, nothing is perfect. Thankfully the service from John is excellent, he's quick to answer questions and fixes units on his own bit outside of the IAG warranty offering. You couldn't ask for better service.

[anubisgrau]

MDAC had to be produced in china. if it would be produced in the UK, it would most likely cost a triple and at 2k RRP it just wouldn't sell as now. if it would be a 2-men show (john and dominic), it would cost a double and they wouldnt have their lives anymore (not sure about that now either). so not much to complain about - you get excellent sound, amazing ergonomics and versatility and a few hiccups you can easily sort out yourself unless you were really not lucky (i got mine with a SPDIF RCA socket pulled out, silly).

anyway, the PFM thread despite working as an enormous PR for the product also put lots of people off. i've realized MDAC is an unfinished product and if i hate something in audio, this is it. if such a thread would exist a year ago, i wouldn't bite it.

last but not least, as someone mentioned it has to be used as a preamp too to yield the best out of it, i tend to disagree. it just depends what kind of preamp you have at home. a good top preamp would provide better sonics - especially in the field of tone, dynamics and drive - but chances are high that such a preamp would cost much more than a DAC itself. my preamp that sounded significantly better than a MDAC's was a DIY work that would be in the range of 5-7k RRP if branded, think of pure sound L300 as the nearest comparison. if you are not there and have one of the "normal" preamps, yes MDAC one is fine and probably more transparent.

[WAD62]

last but not least, as someone mentioned it has to be used as a preamp too to yield the best out of it, i tend to disagree. it just depends what kind of preamp you have at home. a good top preamp would provide better sonics - especially in the field of tone, dynamics and drive - but chances are high that such a preamp would cost much more than a DAC itself. my preamp that sounded significantly better than a MDAC's was a DIY work that would be in the range of 5-7k RRP if branded, think of pure sound L300 as the nearest comparison. if you are not there and have one of the "normal" preamps, yes MDAC one is fine and probably more transparent.

I suppose my 8000Q falls squarely into the 'ordinary' department, as the M-Dac beats it hands down...you get what you pay for I suppose ;)

[r100]

It is slowly happening. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19510040 Raspberry PI is doing just that. I am thinking of building one into a DAC once I can figure out the software end of things.

1111+ great idea... have you had time to give it a try ? oops, sorry shhhhhhh :doh:

[StanleyB]

The Caitwo will have a databus interface for the RPi. But it was not as straight forward as I had hoped. The switch from hardware to software control has to be done internally with a dip switch bank. That's because the DAC chip needs to be wired up differently between software and hardware. Initially, only the DAC chip will be accessible via the Pi. But I am in the process of designing a data expansion board to try out, which will give access to the channel input selection and LED functions. I am also working on a USB adapter that will give the option to control the CaiTwo via a PC. But all these additional options will rely on third party and DIY code writers. I am no good with coding.
I did manage to try the CaiTwo in software at 32Bit/1152KHz sampling rate though.

http://www.homehifi.co.uk/aos/ct.jpg

I'll have to do some more experiments on that. I also need to find my VB6 discs. Anyone got an old set of VB6 discs that they no longer need?

[MartinT]

Interesting stuff, Stan. Am I to understand that this is Pi based with some additional DAC bits? An all-in-one streaming solution like this would be superb, and eminently mod/upgradeable to suit different users.

[StanleyB]

It is not Pi based. The C2 can be used as a stand alone DAC in hardware mode. But when in software mode it can be hooked up to the Pi, or a PC for that matter, via an I2C interface. That then opens up a whole range of additional options since the Pi can be expanded with numerous hardware bits and pieces.

[Krisbee]

I take it this has done away with ( or will do ) the "middle man" between a RPi, or similar, and a Caiman Two DAC of say using USB out from RPi to USB in on the DAC. I'd certainly like to see this feature progress to the production model.

There are alot of web refs to using i2c on the RPi, but I haven't a clue how it would be coded.

Just realised I've confused i2c with i2s, so this is about control of the C2 DAC and not about passing audio data direct from the RPi or similar. Would there be any way of controlling the volume of the C2 DAC variable out (assuming it has it) via i2c? A Caiman Two DAC with remote control was always on my wish list.

[StanleyB]

Yes the C2 works fine when connecting the Pi via USB to it. My own idea is to make a case that accepts the Pi and a variety of add-ons. Then that new case connects to the C2 via I2C.
The Pi can accept LCD displays, and can be controlled via a remote. So controlling the C2 via the Pi with a remote is not impossible. The C2 volume control can then be adjusted in various ways. It's a long list,a nd in due course I'll start a thread on those things.
Don't worry about the IC codes. I'll supply the registry and address bits. All I need at this stage is a user interface with input blocks that can store and execute the appropriate code. I used to design remote controls, so I have a fair idea what needs doing. I just need a Pi programmer to convert what I am thinking of into an interface. See the screen grab of a simple user interface and control that I posted on the previous page in this thread. I use that to test out the DAC.

[MartinT]

Thanks for the explanation - nice sounding project.

[StanleyB]

It is also costing me a lot more to develop than I had expected.
But all that software/hardware talk aside, the sound is the important bit. If the BM2 puts a big grin on your face, the C2 will bring tears of emotion to your eyes.

[Krisbee]

Whatever finally materialises in 2014, I'm looking forward to hearing the Caiman Two.