Pro-ject Genie Mk1 Making Nasty Static Noises

[Rothchild]

Hi,

My Mk1 Genie makes some really nasty static noises when moving the tone arm out of its holster and over towards the start of a record. It all seems to be ok once it's on the record and playing but i was hoping someone might be able to give me some pointers as to how I might rectify this annoying noise?

I'm reasonably competent in terms of taking things apart and putting them back together again but I'm not sure I have the right tools to reset the tonearm angles if I go too far with it!:eek:

[hifi_dave]

Are you sure it is 'static' and not noisy tonearm wiring ?

[Rothchild]

It could be noisy tonearm wiring, what should I do to check / aliviate it?

[DSJR]

Check all the earthing wires, from main bearing to tonearm (I think there's one) and the fine black arm-earthing wire itself and how it's joined to the exit lead thicker earthing wire. There's probably a break somewhere.

[Rothchild]

Thanks Gents

I've got the output box off the bottom (beneath the arm pivot point)

I've got blue, white, red and green coming from the cart, down through the main bearing and to the RCAs, and an additional green that's on a tab in the bottom of the arm (just next to the bearing) and that runs to a tab on the output box and forms the earth with the 'thumbscrew' between the RCAs (ie the whole output box is earthed).

I've just been over it with a multimeter and there's continuity from the bottom bearing to the earth thumbscrew....

The noise is a staticky scratching and clicking and is nasty!

[DSJR]

Next thing to look at is continuity of the arm to earth terminal and hope the "extra" green wire that comes out of the arm isn't open circuit.

Are you still using the cartridge that came with the deck? The Ortofon OM series uses a little tab connecting the body to one of the earthing pins, as do the Stanton/Pickerings and others.

Please check the earthing of your amp and the deck to it (in this case).

Can't think of much more. Good luck :)

[hifi_dave]

Static usually sounds like random clicks, usually when the arm is close to or playing a record.

Your description is more like faulty wiring. If you move the arm from side to side using the finger lift, does it make the scratchy, graunchy noise then ?

[Rothchild]

Your description is more like faulty wiring. If you move the arm from side to side using the finger lift, does it make the scratchy, graunchy noise then ?

Yes, that's it but when I insulate my finger (just using the needle guard over the finger lift) there's no noise. Is / should the cartridge be connecting earth to the arm too? If so how?

[hifi_dave]

Do you get any radio noises ?

The metalwork of the arm should be earthed separately from the signal wires, to prevent hum and radio etc. This is usually accomplished with a separate, single wire, which connects to the amp earth.

Is the turntable a recent acquisition ?

[Rothchild]

Thanks Dave,

I guess that's what the green wire from the bottom of the bottom bearing is for. It seems that the top part of the arm is not connected to this (I can get continuity from the horizontal bearing but not the vertical one.

That said I'm getting continuity from the two 'grounded' outputs from the cartridge to the earth line too, is that right? (that's why I was asking if the cartridge should be bonded to the arm)

Alas it's not a recent purchase (and it was B-stock at that) it's just that recently I've stepped up how much I use it (along with finding this forum) so I thought I'd try and do something about it.

Edit: No I don't get any radio noises, it's only an issue while I'm handling the arm, it performs ok once it's on and playing.

[DSJR]

IMO, the cartridge returns should not be connected to the chassis earths, since this can cause hum (at very low level). There should be an earth (black?) wire in the arm pipe possibly which connects the pipe etc to the lower bearings via the tag under the arm. I no longer have the Debut II with which to compare I'm afraid..

[Rothchild]

Thanks David,

It's the black arm connection I appear to be missing, all that I can see going in to and coming out of the arm is the red, white, blue and green cartridge connections, the main earth is just the green wire that's bolted in to the bottom of the arm.

It would be interesting to hear from any other Genie users to see how their arms are setup and see if I am indeed missing this extra cable to bond the top of the arm to earth.

[hifi_dave]

The bearing green wire is to earth the bearing and hopefully, reduce static.

Usually, there is a a separate wire in with the two phono connections from the arm to earth the metal work of the arm. Not all arms have this - Rega for instance, so it isn't necessarily missing.

You could try and run a piece of wire to the amp 'earth' and touch it to the arm tube or bearing housing to hear if this makes any difference. If it reduces the noise, it would appear that the arm needs an earth. If it doesn't improve things, it could well be damaged/worn inner wiring.

[hifi_dave]

I have just noted that in one post you say the green wire is attached to the bearing and in another, you say it's on the bottom of the arm..:scratch:

[DSJR]

I can't remember Dave, but the Debut II my cousins gave me (and then had back) had a green wire running in a channel from the bearing housing to the under tonearm main earth tab (If you know what I mean). The Debut arm was earthed to this tab and the external earth wire was also soldered to this point IIRC.

[Rothchild]

It's as DSJR describes it, but I only have the cable that attaches to the tab on the underside of the whole assembly (on the bottom, there is a bearing in there) and is soldered to the output box (earth)

There is no additional lead from the top part of the arm, just the 4 leads from the cart.

[hifi_dave]

In that case, if there is no 'earth' connection point under the arm, you can try to run a wire from the bearing 'earth' and connect this to an 'earth' point on the amp. If that is done and the noises are still there, I strongly suspect you have faulty internal wiring.

Where are you in East Anglia ?

[Rothchild]

Thanks Dave,

I'm going to try and work out how to cludge an additional earth from the top section of the arm to the amp earth and see what that does. If it works then I've got an extra problem of trying to work out how to make it a permenant fixture!

I'm in Cambridge.

[hifi_dave]

You just need a convenient screw to touch it on to.

You can always bring it over here and I can take a look.

[hifi_dave]

So, what happened ?

It would be nice to know..:scratch:

[Rothchild]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the concern (and the offer of help) I've basically been so distracted with day to day stuff the past week that I've not had a chance to play with it. I'm going to give it a go now and see what happens.

Cheers,
Marc

[Rothchild]

Yeah, I took a bit of wire and connected it to the earth point and touched it to the bearing in the top of the arm (the vertical one) and whatdyaknow no earthy crackling when I move the arm around. So now I need to work out how to connect it permenantly.

[YNWaN]

Are you sure it is 'static' and not noisy tonearm wiring ?

That was also my first thought.

Most armtubes have an earth connected to them - are you sure your arm doesn't have one and it has become detached?

[DSJR]

I'm sure it has a fifth black "arm earth" wire as I remember the Debut tonearm having. may be worth calling Henley Designs, as they sell wiring looms for these arms with nice tags at one end for the cartridge, and pre-tinned ends at t'other for the terminal block underneath.

[Rothchild]

Thanks Dave,

I'll try with Henley, do you know where the black earth wire would connect to the arm? As previously described I only appear to have the 4 wires from the cartridge and the additional green one, which seemingly should be the arm earth but is only connected to the bottom plate of the arm post which appears not to be electonically connected to the upper part of the arm assembly...

[hifi_dave]

Sometimes the green (earth) wire runs from the earth tag together with the two phono plugs, right up to the end of the arm tube, to earth the whole arm. Another way it's done is that the bottom part of the arm is earthed and the bearings carry it to the arm tube. Third way is that one of the phono leads earth screens and then on to an internal earth wire is connected internally to the arm tube or headshell.

If you have a meter or continuity buzzer, you should get continuity from the bottom of the arm right up to the headshell.

[Rothchild]

I think mine is meant to be like explanation 2, insofar as the green lead that attaches to the underside of the pillar should do the whole lot, it just seems that it doesn't!

Hopefully I'll have a better chance to look in a bit more detail this weekend and see if I can get it connecting better with top part of the arm.

[DSJR]

I'm so sorry I can't remember, but is there a little tag attached to the rear of the headshell, semi-hidden underneath? If there is, this is where the arm-tube earth would be.

How many wires come out of the arm pillar to connect to the tag strip? If it's only four, you'll have to resort to some subterfuge in earthing the tube to the main eathing point. Either yourself or Johnnie at Audio Origami.. Trouble is, the deck ain't worth paying for the labour as you'll never get it back.

[Rothchild]

Trouble is, the deck ain't worth paying for the labour as you'll never get it back.

The investment or the deck? ;)

[DSJR]

My bad typing as uaual. It'll cost loads in labour to re-wire the arm and the whole deck was cheap to start with - is what I was trying to say..

[PhilDick]

I think mine is meant to be like explanation 2, insofar as the green lead that attaches to the underside of the pillar should do the whole lot, it just seems that it doesn't!

Hopefully I'll have a better chance to look in a bit more detail this weekend and see if I can get it connecting better with top part of the arm.

Hi Rothchild,

Sorry to dig up a really old thread. I have the same issue with my newly acquired Genie. Did you ever manage to solve it?

[PhilDick]

Looks like Rothschild doesn't frequent here anymore.

Anyway I fixed mine by striping a bit if litz wire out of an old earphone cable. I took the tonearm apart and ran the wire up the tube and out the bottom of the bearing.

I soldered one end to the earth point inside the connection block underneath the turntable. At the cartridge end I made a loop in the wire and coated it in solder. I put the loop around one of the nuts for the cartridge bolts and reassembled (had to scrape the paint off the nut a bit to ensure a good connection).

It now operates totally silently.

[struth]

yeah not seen him post for some time.

[PhilDick]

I looked at pictures of the later Genie arm and noticed that they have a similar ground wire. It is attached to the underside of the tonearm (near headshell) via a small self tapping screw. So I've altered mine by drilling a small hole in the arm and attaching the ground wire Inthe same way.