View Full Version : Calling all SL-1200/1210 owners!
Guys,
I thought that I'd report on a very quick, free, and simple tweak. Try removing the small rubber washer fitted to the arm's detachable headshell, or the ZU Supreme if you're using one of those, so that it results in superior coupling between the arm and headshell and thus increases the arm's overall rigidity. Tighten up the collar and play... :)
You should notice an improvement in the sound's overall 'focus', with vocals in particular being reproduced more clearly and with better definition. While you're at it clean the brass pins on the end of the headshell bayonet fitting and the ones inside the tonearm with isopropyl solution.
I'm also currently experimenting with upgrading the supplied thin grey DC lead that KAB supply with their external PSU, which I believe is holding back performance somewhat, with some woven Kimber cable shown here (available to order separately) on the SqueezePak PSU:
http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?src=google&lookup=1®ion=UK¤cy=GBP&pf_id=1810&customer_id=PAA1467026108908QYPZIMOXPVHTKTVJ
Initial results are very good indeed and suggest that it's quite a worthwhile upgrade - full report to follow.
Marco.
Vinyl Grinder
15-02-2008, 16:18
If you didnt have an headshell there would be 8 less pin contacts to worry about.plus 4 less solder joint at the back or the armtube bayonet socket.
:lolsign:
Hahahaha... Aye, but you wouldn't have the convenience of being able to run two or three different cartridges already fitted into different headshells, and swap between them very easily when you feel like it, either! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Vinyl Grinder
15-02-2008, 17:35
Hahahaha... Aye, but you wouldn't have the convenience of being able to run two or three different cartridges already fitted into different headshells.
Marco.
That the same as preference to CD so you don't have to flip the record over for side 2?
:lolsign:
sastusbulbas
15-02-2008, 23:21
Guys,
I thought that I'd report on a very quick, free, and simple tweak. Try removing the small rubber washer fitted to the arm's detachable headshell, or the ZU Supreme if you're using one of those, so that it results in superior coupling between the arm and headshell and thus increases the arm's overall rigidity. Tighten up the collar and play.
Marco.
Hello Marco,
Have you been reading Hi Fi World?
I myself have been looking at a Technics 1200's as a "maybe". I could do with something simpler with a cheaper cart for going through a lot of my records and such, which I can put in the sitting room with a lid to keep prying fingers away.
What upgrades have you given yours Marco?, and any other upgrades you can post pics of and report on or that you have read about?
I myself am "thinking" stock deck for now, but with a decent cart for second hand vinyl.
Maybe later an SME V (or IV or 309).
And an Achromat 5mm.
Maybe feet?
Vinyl Grinder
16-02-2008, 01:47
Don't understand why marco don't fit another arm or buy a 'SP10'! Or is it the headshell thing you keep it for Marco?
LOL.
Andre,
The detrimental effect of the detachable headshell is minimal, trust me, and completely outweighed by the effect of important modifications that have been carried out to the arm (Cardas arm rewire, fluid damping, brass counterweight balance, metal alloy headshell, etc) which allow it to compete sonically with any fixed headshell 'hi-end' tonearm up to £1k.
Yes, I've compared it to the various Regas (Origin Live modded and others), Hadcocks and SME Series M2s of this world, and they're not any better I can assure you (just different in presentation). The bearings on the Technics arm are also smooth and of good quality. It's actually very well engineered. So, mate, worry not about detachable headshells if the arm as a whole is a well-sorted and thought out design ;)
Plus also, if I bought a tonearm with a fixed headshell I wouldn't be able to use an EMT XSD-15 or an Ortofon SPU, would I? And I definitely want to own both of those cartridges at some point soon! Eventually, my cartridge 'portfolio' will consist of both of those plus my various 103s, all set-up in their own headshells, which is quite a nice selection of cartridges to have, and only achievable if I've got an arm with a detachable headshell :smoking:
Of course I could shell out serious money on a really top-notch arm if I wanted and no doubt it would be better but that would completely defeat the purpose of me buying the deck in the first place. Anyone can chuck money at hi-fi and buy the most expensive bits, if you can afford to, but getting maximum sound-per-pound and owning something different that's a true giant-killer takes a bit more thought and intelligence :)
SP10s? I love them, but my modified SL-1210 gets me about 95% there (I've heard SP10s in comparison) without any worry about things going pop and then not being able to replace the parts!
Marco.
P.S Steve (Sastus) I'll come back to you later. There's quite a lot to discuss with the points you raised.
Vinyl Grinder
16-02-2008, 13:28
To cut all that short. 'SP10'/'SME 3012R'...I might like you a bit more then
:lolsign:
Maybe, but that's also not without its problems.
And faced with the choice of fannying about searching for suitably mint and fully operational, reliable, versions of the above at a decent price or simply just enjoying music on my (already superb) KAB-modified SL1210, let's see how long it takes me to make up my mind, big boy...
[One-millionth of a nanosecond later]
The SL-1210 option wins!! :lol:
Marco.
Vinyl Grinder
16-02-2008, 14:31
But but but :doh:
:lolsign:
I'm giving some thought to getting myself one of these beasties - have considered going the KAB route as a 'turn-key Super-SL', but quite like the idea of getting a good clean used 1210. I'd mod it myself using the OL Rega armboard and bunging a Tecno onto it, then doing the mat and feet thing.
Could be fun. :)
(and I still think the 1210 looks damn smart too) :)
Right...
I've been threatening to do this for about four months, or thereabouts, so I think the time has come to sit myself down in front of the laptop for an hour or two and write a detailed report on the KAB Technics SL-1210, how it compares to a standard 'DJ' SL-1210, LP12s and other similarly 'revered' belt-drives, and a whole host of other stuff KAB SL-1210 related.
Ok, it *WILL* be ready to read in the 'Strokes of Genius' review section before this weekend!!
I promise it will be controversial and make very interesting reading... ;)
Marco.
I promise it will be controversial ;)
Marco.
All the better!! Looking forward to it. :)
A couple of guys on 'another' forum have gone for some KABs and been quite..shall we say..'shocked' at how good they are.
At to the Tekky itself - I was in HMV in Uxbridge last week where I found a 1210 sat at the back of the shop, all unloved and cast aside. No headshell nor c/weight fitted (no doubt to stop the local tea-leafs).
Anyway I had a good look over it and was sersiously impressed with its weight and build quality. I actually wanted to carefully tuck it under my arm and bring it back to a good home...give it back its dignity.
All the better!! Looking forward to it. :)
A couple of guys on 'another' forum have gone for some KABs and been quite..shall we say..'shocked' at how good they are.
I'll do my best, Richard!
Good is a vast understatement, with the arm modified or replaced with something a bit more serious than a Rega, and a decent MC cartridge, I'd go as far to say that aside from a handful of the world's best belt-drives and something like a mint SP10 or EMT, there is no better... It really is that good.
The problem is badge snobs and 'audiophiles' can't see past the name 'Technics'.
Marco.
The problem is badge snobs and 'audiophiles' can't see past the name 'Technics'.
Marco.
Moot point Marco - would like to think I've long since managed to get away from that, fortunately. I own a Cambridge Audio CD player (which is bloody good, no excuses needed) so have no issues with 'badges'. ;)
What I'd really like to know re the 1210 is how the KAB would fare compared to a home-sourced unit with the various mods, described in the press, applied to it.
I shall very much look forward to your report. :)
Oh yeah, Marco's definitive 1210 review - I'd forgotten all about it! Look forward to it too fellas, hey how about a piccie of the bread bin to accompany it...give the readers some food for thought eh! :doh:
Rich, I would usually subscribe to the 'build it up slowly and enjoy the journey' approach to upgrading, but in this instance with the technics I would just say go all out from the off and you just wont look back.
:gig:
You'll never live the 'bread bin' down, mate... :lol:
Nick, I've got another 'journey' to take you on with valve amps this time when you get yer taffy arse up here ;)
Hehe...I think you'll enjoy this one as much as the Technics!
Richard, I know you can see the bigger picture but sadly some other people's deep-rooted preconceptions and prejudices run much deeper...
Regarding your question about a modified home-sourced unit, I'll cover that in my review - safe to say though that a significant percentage of the upgrade in the deck's performance is derived from the separate PSU, which as far as I'm aware, no-one has perfected yet in the UK. The internal electronics of the SL-1210 are apparently quite complex and therefore the implementation of a separate PSU is a task not for the fainthearted.
Marco.
The internal electronics of the SL-1210 are apparently quite complex and therefore the implementation of a separate PSU is a task not for the fainthearted.
Marco.
Interesting - wonder what KAB have done then to make it really work. I had considered the possibility of going for something like a Speedbox SE or Heed Orbit to plug the 1210 into as they purely re-generate the mains with a rock-solid 50Hz.
I'm reasonably aware of how good a DD TT can be having had a good listen to Guy's SP10 at Heathrow last year, and the chap who I bought my old Expo IX/XI psu/pre off had an SP10 with SME IV which sounded none too shabby. First thing which struck me was the bass - it just sounded so real and its pitch coherence was uncanny.
C'mon Marco, hurry up.... My SL120 should be arriving soon. I'm all ears (eyes?)! :)
LOL. It's on my 'things to do' list, don't worry! :)
Richard,
First thing which struck me was the bass - it just sounded so real and its pitch coherence was uncanny.
Oh yes, absolutely! Belt-drives sound slow, stodgy, and ponderous in comparison.
The pitch coherence comes from the totally accurate speed stability, lack of stylus drag, and remarkably low levels of wow and flutter.
Marco.
Vinyl Grinder
05-03-2008, 21:02
Oh yes, absolutely! Belt-drives sound slow, stodgy, and ponderous in comparison.
The Linn the only belt drive you ever owned then?? ;)
LOL, erm hang on... No!
Marco.
Ok, it *WILL* be ready to read in the 'Strokes of Genius' review section before this weekend!!
Marco.
C'mon Marco - it's the weekend now!! (only cos I'd got today off) ;)
He's too busy fannying about with valves I reckon! ;)
LOL. Indeed!
I'll sit down tomorrow and write it. Check back around teatime and there should be some reasonable waffle to read :smoking:
Marco.
LOL. Indeed!
I'll sit down tomorrow and write it. Check back around teatime and there should be some reasonable waffle to read :smoking:
Marco.
Good man. :)
Vinyl Grinder
07-03-2008, 23:09
C'mon Marco - it's the weekend now!! (only cos I'd got today off) ;)
I think's he's running the BBC accounts department behind the scenes, either that or playing wif himself all day. :lolsign:
I'm three-quarters of the way through the report, chaps. I need to do a few other things now so if I don't finish it later it'll get it done tomorrow and posted then :)
If you know anyone from other forums interested in the KAB-modified SL-1210 ask them to come over and join in the forthcoming fun! I intend to make the thread a one-stop reference point for anything you want to know about the subject, and it will be made into a sticky.
Marco.
Ok, it's pretty much finished. I need to go out for a bit now, so check back at teatime and the review will be in this section of the forum on a new thread :)
Marco.
Getting there, folks... Bear with me - there are too many distractions in real life out with of hi-fi!!
Laters,
Marco.
Erm, In the meantime...here's some divine inspiration.
...
Lead Marco not into distraction
but deliver us from belt drive
for thy is the Japanese direct drive
to fit and forget
for ever and ever
amen.
Hehe...don't worry it's coming - and before Christmas, too! :lol:
Marco.
<Time passes>..... I'm just getting the tree and tinsel out of the loft! :upyours: :ner:
WHERE...IS...IT??? :steam:
LOL. Patience, my boy, patience... Good things come to those who wait ;)
Marco.
I know, I know, I know... :o
Blame life (and business) getting in the way!
It will happen soon though, trust me :)
Marco.
The KAB PSU looks interesting, and a good price. But I noticed this:
'The PS-1200 is designed to replace the internal power source of the Technics SL-1200 MK2, 3 or 5 series turntables.'
Does that mean it wont work with a MK1 SL120? :(
Possibly, Mike. I'll ask Kevin (from KAB) for you. I don't think so, though. I think what that's referring to is the MK2, 3 or 5 series SL-1200/1210 integrated turntables. The SL120 isn't mentioned because it's just a motor unit (i.e. not a 1200 or 1210). However I'm almost certain that the motor unit in the 1200/1210 is the same as the one in the SL120, MK1 or not. So based on that, the PSU should work :)
How's it sounding, anyway? You've been very quiet!
Or are you just waiting for my review? ;)
Marco.
It's still in the box! :lolsign:
Hahahahahaha... What are you like? You're worse than me with my bloody reviews! Ok, maybe not quite... :lol:
Marco.
Well!....
As I won't have a phono stage or cartridge till the end of the month (I'm not made of money - sadly) there seem little point is buggering about with it yet. So there! :ner:
Still not stopping you from posting your all singing and dancing guide though, is it?
Bloody slacker! :wanker: :lolsign:
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/indypepa/testcard.jpg
:lolsign::lolsign::lolsign:
LOL! Nice one, Nick :lolsign:
I'm too bloody busy arguing with jc and Ashley!!
Marco.
Leave it Marco,
There's no reasoning wiv da AVI posse!... Word!
:mental:
It's all good fun as far as I'm concerned! :)
Actually, what's happened to the Yaqin has held up the 1210 review.
Marco.
Possibly, Mike. I'll ask Kevin (from KAB) for you.
Hi Marco,
Have to got round to doing this yet?
There's no great rush, I'm just curious.
Not yet, dude.
I'll send him an email right now! :)
Marco.
Done!
I'll let you know when I get a reply - should be either later tonight or tomorrow :smoking:
Marco.
Right...
I've been threatening to do this for about four months, or thereabouts, so I think the time has come to sit myself down in front of the laptop for an hour or two and write a detailed report on the KAB Technics SL-1210, how it compares to a standard 'DJ' SL-1210, LP12s and other similarly 'revered' belt-drives, and a whole host of other stuff KAB SL-1210 related.
Ok, it *WILL* be ready to read in the 'Strokes of Genius' review section before this weekend!!
I promise it will be controversial and make very interesting reading... ;)
Marco.
I cannot help but notice that time is still passing!!!
Does ANY of this mighty tome actually exist yet??? :scratch:
:lolsign:
StanleyB
26-03-2008, 17:36
Some things can't be rushed. I packed away a fortune worth of audio equipment the moment my wife said she was pregnant. It took me two decades and the need to do a loft conversion before I finally dug out the bits again. Most people had thought I had got rid if the stuff or had just lied about me ever owning any of it. So Marco might be on the same type of trip:).
Out of interest, things that I packed away:
2 x Micro Seiki MA-505 MKI
2 x Technics EPA-501H
1 x Micro Seiki DDX-1000
1 x Ariston RD-40
1 x Sony PS6750
1 x Mitsubishi DA-10
Plus a few dust arms. Since then eBay has enlightened me to the curet day value of all that stuff:). Glad I didn't flog them then.
Mike,
Yep, it's half done. I've just got the 'interesting' bits to add ;)
I've got too many things on right now to finish it, but don't worry it'll be posted before your next birthday :lol:
I'm also trying to get the Yaqin sorted.
Has your deck 'emerged' yet from its slumber?
Marco.
PS. Sensi, did you read my reply about the EPA-501H?
StanleyB
26-03-2008, 17:59
Mike,
PS. Sensi, did you read my reply about the EPA-501H?
I did. Got a few things to take care of, which is taking up space on the same table I use to take pictures. Once that is out of the way I shall do you the shots.
Has your deck 'emerged' yet from its slumber?
I'm sniffing about right now for the best phono stage (and cartridge) I can find for under four hundred quid, which ain't easy! :(
Once all the necessary bits are in one place, away we go!
I'm sniffing about right now for the best phono stage (and cartridge) I can find for under four hundred quid, which ain't easy! :(
Once all the necessary bits are in one place, away we go!
Got a box?
Got a tranny with 18-0-18 upward and a couple of caps, 4700mfd will do, and a bridge?
If so then you can buy http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270210407137&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT
It is then upgradable to four :smoking: seperate power supplies, as is your want.
Sensi,
Nice one. Keep me in the loop :smoking:
Mike,
Looks like Richard has sorted out the phono stage side of things. For the cartridge do you fancy a coil or an MM jobby, and what type of sound do you like?
I can then recommend some suitable cartridges within your budget :)
Marco.
Got a box?
Got a tranny with 18-0-18 upward and a couple of caps, 4700mfd will do, and a bridge?
If so then you can buy http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270210407137&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT
It is then upgradable to four :smoking: seperate power supplies, as is your want.
Interesting!
But could I ask a couple of questions please?
1. Ignoring PSU's for the moment, Is there any difference in circuitry between that board in the link above and the Phono1 and Phono2? (I'd already been looking and they figure in my short list).
2. Would it be possible purchase the board and four PSU's together, and at what price?
3. If I purchased four PSU's I assume it would be preferable to use four separate transformers, bridges etc. Yes?
Cheers,
Mike.
For the cartridge do you fancy a coil or an MM jobby, and what type of sound do you like?
I can then recommend some suitable cartridges within your budget :)
Marco.
Well, it depends on which phono stage I settle on, but considering present budget constraints I expect to be looking in the MM playground for now.
Sound wise - clean, detailed (but not too 'in yer face'), tight bass - my speakers can be a bit 'full' sounding thanks to twin quarter wave pipes, so nothing to exacerbate that tendency.
Cheers,
Mike.
Interesting!
But could I ask a couple of questions please?
1. Ignoring PSU's for the moment, Is there any difference in circuitry between that board in the link above and the Phono1 and Phono2? (I'd already been looking and they figure in my short list).
2. Would it be possible purchase the board and four PSU's together, and at what price?
3. If I purchased four PSU's I assume it would be preferable to use four separate transformers, bridges etc. Yes?
Cheers,
Mike.
Don't dissapoint me I thought you knew what was what and could use a soldering iron.
This is the basic board, I thought you wanted cheap. Same as built in the integrateds and in the P90 pre. Phono2 more complicated.
In the pic and in the offer there is only one regulator board, but each of the gain stages can be powered seperately so if you wish to power them seperately you would need four regulator boards. PSU are £190 each, your money is gone!
Any techie has got a couple of trannies lying around and a few caps I though you were one, I was trying to help but if you want it built then you pay for it built.
Doh!.... I'm a clown and should pay more attention to what I'm typing!
Please re-read questions 2 & 3 and where it says 'PSU' please insert 'Reg'.
:doh:
I kind of knew what the answer to Q1 would be, but I thought I'd check anyway. One never knows, maybe you could be persuaded to sell a Phono2 board! ;) (he said, expecting the answer 'No'!)
Doh!.... I'm a clown and should pay more attention to what I'm typing!
Please re-read questions 2 & 3 and where it says 'PSU' please insert 'Reg'.
:doh:
I kind of knew what the answer to Q1 would be, but I thought I'd check anyway. One never knows, maybe you could be persuaded to sell a Phono2 board! ;) (he said, expecting the answer 'No'!)
Come on it is a simple regulator board, a couple of resistors and comping caps one side of the chip a couple the other, when you get one you can copy another three on some veroboard or similar. I want to see you do some techie.
Phono2 - Same board layout different quality on some comps. When you get it look at it and work it out yourself. Stick to the values replace the quality. The laws of diminishing returns apply. You could go whole hog with Shinko res and top dog caps, you could change the op-amps but I have found no better, they are just selected for the phono 2.
Come on it is a simple regulator board, a couple of resistors and comping caps one side of the chip a couple the other, when you get one you can copy another three on some veroboard or similar. I want to see you do some techie.
Awww dammit!.....
A chalange has been made! And there was me just trying to be lazy...... I'm just off to eBay.
:wave:
There... Done!
Let's see what can be done with this wee beastie then!
:ner:
There... Done!
Let's see what can be done with this wee beastie then!
:ner:
Keep it on-line and keep us amused with progress, even if you fry it :doh:
Don't worry though if you cook it I will haul you out the sh1t by doing it properly for you :ner:
Keep it on-line and keep us amused with progress, even if you fry it :doh:
Don't worry though if you cook it I will haul you out the sh1t by doing it properly for you :ner:
Pffft....
I'll make it even better than your own and sell it back to you (with a retailers hat on) for three times the price!
:ner: :ner: :ner:
Pffft....
I'll make it even better than your own and sell it back to you (with a retailers hat on) for three times the price!
:ner: :ner: :ner:
That is just what most manufacturers do, what is original :confused::doh:
Anyway for that you have another challenge, seeing as you haven't decided on which cartridge yet it will come sans input res and comp and sans gain res, so you can have the pleasure of working it out when you decide which cartridge you are going to use. BUT I am alway here for you young sprog mi lad, as long as there is a little deference to your Jedi master, we can get there together.
And there will be lots of celebration and :gig:
Okeydokey.... :youtheman:
When I get started I'll start a new thread and documant 'The Build' with photo's 'n stuff.
I think I'll have to source some nice boxes for it all to live in though rather than the scabby bits of tat I've got lying about. It'll have to be a two box affair too, it'd just be rude not to!
Night night.
Okeydokey.... :youtheman:
When I get started I'll start a new thread and documant 'The Build' with photo's 'n stuff.
I think I'll have to source some nice boxes for it all to live in though rather than the scabby bits of tat I've got lying about. It'll have to be a two box affair too, it'd just be rude not to!
Night night.
First lesson - never put a transformer (especially if it is a frame) anywhere near a phono stage, even moving magnet. Two boxes are essential unless you are only using one small 50va (or under) torroid, and then aligned so the field null points to the phono pcb.
LOL. Master and pupil at work - doncha just love it! :lol:
Mikey,
Rewinding back past the electonics for beginners class, fascinating as it is... What bloody sound do you like so I can recommend a bloody cartridge. I won't bloody ask you again! :lolsign:
Marco.
LOL. Master and pupil at work - doncha just love it! :lol:
Mikey,
Rewinding back past the electonics for beginners class, fascinating as it is... What bloody sound do you like so I can recommend a bloody cartridge. I won't bloody ask you again! :lolsign:
Marco.
I bloody answered you several bloody posts ago. Bloody muppet!
Scroll up a bit!
:ner:
Hahahaha... I didn't bloody scroll down far enough on page 6 and missed your last bloody post! I'm bloody blind :lolsign:
Well, it depends on which phono stage I settle on, but considering present budget constraints I expect to be looking in the MM playground for now.
Sound wise - clean, detailed (but not too 'in yer face'), tight bass - my speakers can be a bit 'full' sounding thanks to twin quarter wave pipes, so nothing to exacerbate that tendency.
Remind me again of the maximum budget you have available for the cartridge, now that Richard appears to have saved you some money by going down the D.I.Y route for the phono stage. Suitable recommendations will then follow :)
Marco.
Let's say, hmmmm...... £150(ish). Oh, and it has to work well in a Hadcock GH228 (earlyish one with aluminium armtube).
:scratch:
P.S. Why do people bid like this? :
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Denon-DL-160-High-Output-Moving-Coil-Cartridge-EX-MP3_W0QQitemZ380008977283QQihZ025QQcategoryZ48648Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
You can buy a brand new one for less than £80!
Prince of Darkness
27-03-2008, 12:05
P.S. Why do people bid like this? :
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Denon-DL-160-High-Output-Moving-Coil-Cartridge-EX-MP3_W0QQitemZ380008977283QQihZ025QQcategoryZ48648Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
You can buy a brand new one for less than £80!
A lot of people have no idea of the value of what they are bidding on and assume it must be a bargain if it's on ebay. I've also seen cases where identical items from the same seller have been available as either auction or "buy it now" on seperate listings and the auction item has gone for a higher price!:scratch:
Yes Kevin!... I guess there's still lots of mileage in the old saying 'There's one born every minute'!
Strange but true.
:mental:
Hmmm...... I've found a Goldring 2500 for a pretty attractive price. I liked the 1024 I used a couple of years ago, I wonder how they compare?
Decision, desisions...
:scratch:
Let's say, hmmmm...... £150(ish). Oh, and it has to work well in a Hadcock GH228 (earlyish one with aluminium armtube).
Mike,
Could you go to one of these:
http://www.audiocubes2.com/category/Cartridges/product/Audio-Technica_AT33PTG_Prestige_MC_Stereo_Cartridge.html ?osCsid=a3a38b99f36aecec62b93456ce01d1d7
They are extraordinarily good for the money, and as good as anything up to £1000! It's the usual 'the best stuff goes to the non-UK market' scenario. The AT-33PTG is a veritable giant-killer, and it has the balance of sonic virtues you're looking for. It is also far better than an OC-9!
Another option is the Denon DL-110, which is a high-output model you can use straight into a MM stage. It has a higher compliance than the DL-103, which I would normally recommend, but which wouldn't really suit the relatively low-mass of the Hadcock.
Otherwise, any of the Clearaudio MMs in your price range would be good, or the new Ortofon or Goldring MMs, or perhaps some of the Grados - most of these are within your budget.
Marco.
Hmmm...
Interesting choice, and a bit of a new one to me.
Too late though, I've already ordered a Goldring 2500 (I got bored waiting :ner:).
Yes I'm going out on a limb here but I think it's more or less impossible to audition one first in the deck/arm combination I'm going to be using for the foreseeable future.
LOL. Nice one - I hope it works out :smoking:
And that would be the SL-120, I presume?
Marco.
And that would be the SL-120, I presume?
Or Lenco GL75... Winner takes all!
:gig:
P.S. Why do people bid like this? :
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Denon-DL-160-High-Output-Moving-Coil-Cartridge-EX-MP3_W0QQitemZ380008977283QQihZ025QQcategoryZ48648Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
You can buy a brand new one for less than £80!
Now it's just silly, check this out:
http://www.hifix.co.uk/sku_list.lasso?red=1&dept_id=65&dept=b799d26ec1cb63d32fea43d1abdc8c8c&majorg=07e9c8c49ebbd9c1e3c3ef1eae70c2a214680834358 32445&minorg=ca056cdeaa9c1b6c&minor_id=&major_id=29
Price includes VAT & delivery
Some people eh? :mental:
That is just what most manufacturers do, what is original :confused::doh:
Anyway for that you have another challenge, seeing as you haven't decided on which cartridge yet it will come sans input res and comp and sans gain res, so you can have the pleasure of working it out when you decide which cartridge you are going to use. BUT I am alway here for you young sprog mi lad, as long as there is a little deference to your Jedi master, we can get there together.
And there will be lots of celebration and :gig:
It has arrived quickly, ta!
Hmmmm, I have questions.......
Only time for one at the moment though. Are the dry joints on the reg board's C3 another little test?
:ner:
It has arrived quickly, ta!
Hmmmm, I have questions.......
Only time for one at the moment though. Are the dry joints on the reg board's C3 another little test?
:ner:
I sub the pcb boards assembly to an outwork company. I will moan at them for you. I obviously check the ones I use, but this is your project so get on with it, moany git.
PS the new avatar is to denote our new found relationship, so watch out for that plug - meep! meep! meep! :lol::lol::lol:
Not moaning grumpy git!
Anyone who buys 'bare bones' stuff to fit themselves won't be bothered by something that simple, and that includes me! :lolsign:
Just 'bantering' in good humour! :ner:
Anyway.... I'll start a new thread to continue this sometime soon and delete some of this 'Mike & Richards bantering room' stuff to allow the thread to at least look like it's on topic.Unless anyone would like it to remain 'as is'?
'Later' folk's, I've got some serious cooking to do, a nice Kashmiri Rogan Josh doesn't cook itself you know! ;)
ta ta for now. :wave:
Anyway back on topic
I have just taken delivery of an ex DJ 1210.
It will be a little fun project in my quiet times (if I ever get any). I will mod and rebuild it using principles and things learned in the design of the NVA senior T/T (never to be made again) dating from 1990. But sorry they will be my secret :ner:
C'mon Richard, get those hands in the air and kick up a fierce one!
:gig:
Excellent, this is very exciting indeed, as it appears that no one else in the UK has really put their hand up and had a bash at one these sleeping giants. I know this is Kevin's (KAB) fear, but I guess it had to happen sometime.
I'm sure a few of us on here will be very interested in your findings. :)
Yes, Richard, do let us know how you get on :)
Are you retaining the stock arm?
You *might* even manage to report on your findings before I get round to writing my review! :lol:
Nicky boy,
I took delivery today of one of Thruno's '3-piece suite' brass counterweight balances. It's excellent, but you're lucky you have that extra weight on top of your nude 103 Pro because if I use all three brass weights I can only get 2.1g VTF with my Denon, and that's with all three counteweights pushed as far forward towards the pivot point as possible...
I'll dick around a bit at the weekend and add a touch more mass at the headshell to enable me to use all three counterweights, and thus allow me to position them ideally (as close to the pivot point) as possible, and obtain the correct VTF. I usually find 2.6g ideal.
I just thought I would report on this :)
Marco.
C'mon Richard, get those hands in the air and kick up a fierce one!
:gig:
Excellent, this is very exciting indeed, as it appears that no one else in the UK has really put their hand up and had a bash at one these sleeping giants. I know this is Kevin's (KAB) fear, but I guess it had to happen sometime.
I'm sure a few of us on here will be very interested in your findings. :)
Its my fun so :ner:
Anyway I wont be competing so much with things he does, my forte is power supply design. Though I will obviously play with other things. What I want to work on is that the power system is almost digital, it is a series of on and offs, and the more on and off the better as they use in lathe drive. I have ideas to simulate a greater number of poles in how the motor is driven. Also the motor needs very much lower impedance feed. There is still backlash in the motor.
I have just finished my last bit of fun / project of taking the cheapest CD player you can find on ebay, originally sold by Richer Sound - the Eclipse CD101 - you can get them on ebay for about a tenner - and rebuilding it with killer powers supplies and some component changes and it makes a CD player to kill for. It just happens to have one of the best sounding transports ever made and is extremely long lived and reliable. Anyway now it no longer has a mains lead but has a seperate PSU box or two seperate box PSU's depending on how far you take the mods. I have surepticiously bought 10 of them on ebay over the last 6 months, so keeping a couple for myself there will be 8 going up on ebay at some stage.
C'mon all you amateur techies. Buy some of the cheapest **** you can find on ebay and have fun. It is the techie version of Jerry :lolsign:
Marco, yes lovely pieces aren't they. It was a bit of guesswork really, but luckily it works out fine for me. I'm not butted right up against the pivot, but pretty close.
I havent spun any vinyl for 7 weeks now, the chap building my pre has had family illness problems and is running a month late. I'm beginning to climb the walls. My Quad actives are much better now they run from dvd player rather than ipod, the same chap is going to mod these too in the near future, so I should have an excellent system by the summer.
Anyway I wont be competing so much with things he does, my forte is power supply design. Though I will obviously play with other things. What I want to work on is that the power system is almost digital, it is a series of on and offs, and the more on and off the better as they use in lathe drive. I have ideas to simulate a greater number of poles in how the motor is driven. Also the motor needs very much lower impedance feed. There is still backlash in the motor.
If you want a quick peek inside my PS-1200 PSU just let me know ;)
But no direct copies, mind! :eyebrows:
The thing about the SL-1210 is its amazingly accurate speed stability and virtually non-existent W&F, which has a remarkable knock-on effect in various areas of its sonic performance. Most T/Ts these days (even very expensive ones) are just toys in comparison.
Marco.
Nick,
Marco, yes lovely pieces aren't they. It was a bit of guesswork really, but luckily it works out fine for me. I'm not butted right up against the pivot, but pretty close.
You get away with it because of the extra mass on top of your 103 Pro.
I havent spun any vinyl for 7 weeks now, the chap building my pre has had family illness problems and is running a month late. I'm beginning to climb the walls. My Quad actives are much better now they run from dvd player rather than ipod, the same chap is going to mod these too in the near future, so I should have an excellent system by the summer.
Yeah no doubt, mate. I'm sorry to hear about the delay. Hopefully you'll also be able to take a trip up to sunny Wrexham :)
Marco.
If you want a quick peek inside my PS-1200 PSU just let me know ;)
But no direct copies, mind! :eyebrows:
The thing about the SL-1210 is its amazingly accurate speed stability and virtually non-existent W&F, which has a remarkable knock-on effect in various areas of its sonic performance. Most T/Ts these days (even very expensive ones) are just toys in comparison.
Marco.
Not in the slightest bit interested in what is in your PSU. Amateur prat arounds are good fun but don't compete with the *master* :ner:
You will just have to accept you will have second best and live with it :smoking:
Your description is common knowledge and is really gobble de gook "amazingly accurate speed stability and virtually non-existent W&F" how are you measuring it, since whan has any test equipment told you anything sensible. Torque my man Torque, that is king in car engine design same in turntable motor design. Forget your bloody stupid BHP. In a T/T it is stopping and starting torque, so does that mean when you press the button, nah!!! it is happening everytime a pole passes the coil. The trouble with a direct drive is that it is *never* rotating at the right speed. It averages the right speed, but you don't necessarily notice it as it happens in a split second. BUT it effects how you percieve music. Guy was muttering about it in the version that Technics did for the cutting lathe. Needs much bigger motor with many more poles. I am playing at simulating that.
Not in the slightest bit interested in what is in your PSU. Amateur prat arounds are good fun but don't compete with the *master* :ner:
You will just have to accept you will have second best and live with it :smoking:
LOL. We'll compare T/Ts then when yours is finished ;)
I agree with you about torque. Measurements? Look at the 1210 spec in the manual!
My (very good) ears and my experience with a multitude of T/Ts, though, tell me all I need to know about the deck's performance.
And I won't ask you again, old chap, are you keeping the stock arm or is dementia addling the grey matter? :ner:
Marco.
And I won't ask you again, old chap, are you keeping the stock arm or is dementia addling the grey matter? :ner:
Why on earth would he want to?
It's cack and you know it! :ner:
LOL. We'll compare T/Ts then when yours is finished ;)
I agree with you about torque. Measurements? Look at the 1210 spec in the manual!
My (very good) ears and my experience with a multitude of T/Ts, though, tell me all I need to know about the deck's performance.
And I won't ask you again, old chap, are you keeping the stock arm or is dementia addling the grey matter? :ner:
Marco.
It will stay as long as I want it to, it is the tt I am playing with. THEN well I might build my own if I have time :smoking:
So the stock arm is staying? - Excellent. Gosh you're hard work!
Actually, if you dispose of the rank-rotten stock internal wiring and phono cables and replace them with Cardas sliver linz and good quality phono interconnects, fit a decent counterweight balance and headshell, and add some silicon fluid damping, the Technics arm is very, very good :)
Build your own, by all means, and I'm sure it will be excellent, but don't automatically assume it will be better than the modified stock arm I've described above :smoking:
Also, fitting a decent mat is a must. The standard rubber thing is shit and does next to hee-haw (a rather quaint Scottish expression) to damp the ringing platter.
Marco.
Why on earth would he want to?
It's cack and you know it! :ner:
Mmm... I use to have a brand new Hadcock GH242 Integra. I sold it. Do you wonder why? ;)
Marco.
So the stock arm is staying? - Excellent. Gosh you're hard work!
Actually, if you dispose of the rank-rotten stock internal wiring and phono cables and replace them with Cardas sliver linz and good quality phono interconnects, fit a decent counterweight balance and headshell, and add some silicon fluid damping, the Technics arm is very, very good :)
Build your own, by all means, and I'm sure it will be excellent, but don't automatically assume it will be better than the modified stock arm I've described above :smoking:
Also, fitting a decent mat is a must. The standard rubber thing is shit and does next to hee-haw (a rather quaint Scottish expression) to damp the ringing platter.
Marco.
The amazing thing about you is you *actually* think you are telling me something. Everyone knows now you are full of hot air and promises promises promises, your worse than an air hostess :lol::lol:
If my customers had to wait as long for products as you have strung out the panting hoards with your teasing bullsh1t about this, I would still be building last years orders.
<Snigger>
Well, Richy-boy, like I said, we'll compare T/Ts when yours is finished. I'm fascinated to see/hear what you come up with.
In the meantime I'm just making sure I keep you right ;)
Marco.
Mmm... I use to have a brand new Hadcock GH242 Integra. I sold it. Do you wonder why? ;)
Marco.
[errr, borrowing and modifying phrase from Capitan Slow] You are a cock?
:lolsign:
Filterlab
29-03-2008, 09:51
I have just taken delivery of an ex DJ 1210.
It will be a little fun project in my quiet times (if I ever get any)....
Will you be mixing up the fat 'n fresh flavours?
That's a bit too cryptic, Rob :scratch:
Mikey Spikey [errr, borrowing a phrase from Capitan Slow] You are a cock?
No, I just didn't want to be a haddock.
Marco.
Mike,
Could you go to one of these:
http://www.audiocubes2.com/category/Cartridges/product/Audio-Technica_AT33PTG_Prestige_MC_Stereo_Cartridge.html ?osCsid=a3a38b99f36aecec62b93456ce01d1d7
They are extraordinarily good for the money, and as good as anything up to £1000! It's the usual 'the best stuff goes to the non-UK market' scenario. The AT-33PTG is a veritable giant-killer, and it has the balance of sonic virtues you're looking for. It is also far better than an OC-9!
Another option is the Denon DL-110, which is a high-output model you can use straight into a MM stage. It has a higher compliance than the DL-103, which I would normally recommend, but which wouldn't really suit the relatively low-mass of the Hadcock.
Otherwise, any of the Clearaudio MMs in your price range would be good, or the new Ortofon or Goldring MMs, or perhaps some of the Grados - most of these are within your budget.
Marco.
I managed to knock of few quid of the AT Marco, take a look here:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=360038734899&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=023
Cheers,
Mike.
Yeah, Mike, that's cool.
You'll love it, mate. It's a helluva cartridge for the money. It's grossly underpriced considering its build quality and performance. It takes a bit of running in from new, though, so don't judge it too strictly right away.
It tracks like a demon, it's detailed yet totally unfatiguing, musical sounding, and all-in-all highly addictive! :smoking:
Marco.
P.S Have you got the valves yet?
P.S Have you got the valves yet?
Hmmm... No!
:scratch:
You need to quiz your neighbours, mate - one of them must have them :)
Marco.
You need to quiz your neighbours, mate - one of them must have them :)
Marco.
Got em!!!
At least two are wrecked though..... Bugger! :(
thrunobulaxx
08-04-2008, 11:55
Yes, Richard, do let us know how you get on :)
Are you retaining the stock arm?
You *might* even manage to report on your findings before I get round to writing my review! :lol:
Nicky boy,
I took delivery today of one of Thruno's '3-piece suite' brass counterweight balances. It's excellent, but you're lucky you have that extra weight on top of your nude 103 Pro because if I use all three brass weights I can only get 2.1g VTF with my Denon, and that's with all three counteweights pushed as far forward towards the pivot point as possible...
I'll dick around a bit at the weekend and add a touch more mass at the headshell to enable me to use all three counterweights, and thus allow me to position them ideally (as close to the pivot point) as possible, and obtain the correct VTF. I usually find 2.6g ideal.
I just thought I would report on this :)
Marco.
Hi fella`s, just caught up here after being a bit rough lately, if you need some adjustments making to the mass of any of the 3 pieces, or heavier parts making let me know, i dont charge for adjusting any i have sent off, have you got Jakes 3 piece one now marco ?
Regards John.
Yep sure have, mate - and I love it :)
It could probably do with some more weight, though, to enable me to position the full counterweight balance as close as possible to the arm's pivot point.
What's the best thing to do, send you the smallest brass counterweight balance for you to produce a similar heavier one, or what else?
Sorry to hear that you weren't keeping too well, John. I hope things are better now :smoking:
Marco.
thrunobulaxx
09-04-2008, 08:20
you can send the smallest back and i can do you one at a higher grammage, do you think you can work out heath robinson style ( balance gauge and weight on the headshell) how many grams more it needs to be.
If memory serves that one had a total of 165g + or - 2g.
Was the stub hole diameter 14mm on your arm marco ? also what is the model No for the standard fitted arm to the 1210 ? is it a EPA100 with a differend C/W ?
Hi John,
Just to check I am getting this right...
The current situation is that with all three of your weights in place and moved as far forward towards the arm's pivot point as possible, I'm unable to obtain the correct VTF of 2.6g with my 103. I can only get 2.1g.
So I presume I need more mass on the counterweight balance to resolve this, presuming that I want the whole counterweight balance as close to the arm's pivot point as possible?
I always get a bit mixed up with this! :eyebrows:
Once confirmed, I'll work out what extra 'grammage' I require.
Marco.
thrunobulaxx
09-04-2008, 20:38
If i`m understanding that properly it seems to me you need less mass at the rear end of the arm. or am i as confused as you tonight .or do as j7 sometimes does, add a couple of grams to the headshell in the form of a small polished disk, or something, test it with blue tac first to see if we are both out to lunch.:)
Send me the centre one down and i will reduce it, it would be hard to make another and get the diameter exactly the same as it is in the suite, i skimmed them down as one piece before splitting them.
John.
If i`m understanding that properly it seems to me you need less mass at the rear end of the arm. or am i as confused as you tonight
Nope, you are not confused.
If the weights are as far forward as they will go, you need to decrease mass at the rear to increase tracking force. :)
thrunobulaxx
09-04-2008, 22:09
Nope, you are not confused.
If the weights are as far forward as they will go, you need to decrease mass at the rear to increase tracking force. :)
Marco had me at it there for a few minutes, its bloody obvious innit.:lol:
Seems to me that you only need 0.5 to 1g off, as an experiment take out one of the screws temporarily, each one is about 0.6 g, start with one out and see if you can get what you want, if not enough try a second then third to give me some idea of the reduction needed.
you are trying to achieve quite an exact thing getting you VTW spot on with the c/w at the limit of its adjustment forwards. ;O)
I figure the slightest of skims off any of them will do the trick.
Yeah, I'm losing the plot :eyebrows:
Too many broken bottles in my head today.
John, I'll send you the centre one to reduce the mass slightly - how much though I don't know :confused:
What I'm trying to achieve is 2.6g VTF, but with the counterbalance weight as far forward towards the arm's pivot point as possible. At the moment its slightly less half way along the stub - like in my avatar. I want it all the way along.
Marco.
thrunobulaxx
10-04-2008, 14:39
I just put my reply in my last post and cant be assed to redo it, sorry.
LOL. PM me you addy again, John :smoking:
Marco.
thrunobulaxx
10-04-2008, 20:56
LOL. PM me you addy again, John :smoking:
Marco.
Done, put it in your book this time:lol:
Dont forget to try getting your 2.6g VTW with a screw or two out, i need to know how much to shave off if you have to be butted right up to the pivot end.
Just a thought, the whole idea of the "3 piece suite" version is to be able to use 1 / 2 or 3 of the weights depending on cart/headshell mass, have you tried with the smallest left off, i would imagine you will still get close to the pivot albeit not butted right up ?
Yep that's what I'm using at the moment, and the remaining counterweight balance ends up positioned as per my avatar, at 2.6g :)
So there's still a bit to go for it to be butted-up to the pivot.
Got your addy, so I'll send you the smallest weight to be trimmed.
Marco.
thrunobulaxx
11-04-2008, 07:27
Marco there is not enough metal on the sides of the small one to skim, the threads for the grub screws will become exposed a bit, send the middle one down, i will have it back to you same day.
If i read the above reply right you are only using the large and middle at the mo with them sat in the same place as the old one in the avatar ?
Indeed you are right :)
So you can see how much further I need to get it butted up to the pivot.
I meant to say I'll send you the middle one, as we had already talked about that - I made a mistook :eyebrows:
Marco.
So, when are we getting the (in)famous review of the Technics?
Cheers! :cool:
Alex
So, when are we getting the (in)famous review of the Technics?
Cheers! :cool:
Alex
Don't hold your breath like I did..... You'll go purple many times over!!!
:lolsign:
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:( :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:( :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:( :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
Okay, okay, I get the message! :lol:
I'll have to condense it though and leave out the pics for the time being... ;)
Marco.
Shut it or I'll stick a KT88 up your bum :ner:
Marco.
Hmmm!
Well I have four useless ones sitting here. Maybe I should stick them up another certain 'useless one'!!!
POST IT !!!
Yep, the PO's posterior. The delivery was 'Special' all right!
Any joy on that score yet?
Marco.
Nah!
Think I'll end up just 'putting it down to experience'.
And being forever paranoid and obsessive when it comes to packing big tubes for posting!
:doh:
In Scotland 'tubes' has got a totally different meaning :lolsign:
Marco.
I bet it has..... No doubt involving some sort of deep frying!!! :ner:
Well if you're ever in Glasgow call someone a "big tube" and see what happens! :lol:
Marco.
Blimey, it's been nearly 10 weeks since I sold my analogue bits and pieces and I'm climbing the walls now, having only cd to play. I've chopped and changed the format of my new integrated valve phono/linestage that's being built for me, due to some technical/design issues the latest and final iteration is basically the one I should have plumped for in the first instance - valve MM and linestage. I'm now considering either a MC headamp made by the same fella, or an auditorium23 step-up. I'm hoping to get the pre-amp by the end of the week, and I'll post some pics up then.
I've also replaced the quad active monitors with some rare sony active speakers that have electrostatic tweeters, I owned a pair of these some years ago and should never have sold them, they are every bit as good as I remember playing through the mini system and crap interconnects they are bundled with, my new valve pre-amp has been impededence matched with the amps, so I'm expecting great things from this combo.
Blimey, it's been nearly 10 weeks since I sold my analogue bits and pieces and I'm climbing the walls now, having only cd to play.
Jeez, Nick, you've not sold your KAB SL1210, have you? :confused:
Marco.
Hell no! I wouldn't sell the 1210 (ever)!....well maybe for a slatedecked mint sp10 mk3!
I'm refering to the phono stage and amp. I had less than an hour with my newly nuded 103pro before I boxed the amps, speakers and cables up and sent them off. that seems like a looooong time ago now. I dont know why I put myself through it. The end is in sight now though and the results should be interesting - there's something about 'active' that I just love.
I wonder how Richard is getting on with his 1210 tweaking?
I don't know I think it's on the back burner...
Blimey, it's been nearly 10 weeks since I sold my analogue bits and pieces and I'm climbing the walls now, having only cd to play.
Thank goodness you haven't sold your 1210. From the sentence above, just for a second, it appeared that way!
Nick, let me give you the most absolute assurance possible (you can feel free to kill me if I'm wrong :eyebrows:) - if you go the MM valve phono stage route with an A23 step-up transformer, and your 103Pro/KAB-modified SL-1210, you will be in analogue heaven, trust me! It is a phenomenally good combination, of course depending on how good your valve MM stage is ;)
If you want to listen to the effect jump on the train and come up and visit. We were due to reschedule your last visit, anyway, so now's as good a time as any if you have a day to spare :smoking:
I would honestly hate to see you miss out on what this fabulous device does to a 103.
Marco.
griffo104
28-04-2008, 14:38
Marco,
Have used the Audiotorium with any of the other Denon carts ?
I ask as I'm using a Denon AU300-LC trannie which according the website is for the DL103 and DL301ii models - I'm using a DL301ii at the moment and it's doing sterling work.
However I was thinking of upping the money and going for a better trannie, the AU300LC only cost about £70 imported from Japan.
I know the 23 is specifically for the DL103 but the requirements of the DL301ii are very similar (0.4mv. output and it wants a 40 Ohm load), I'm seriously considering taking the gamble.
Of course I'm still not convinced about these DJ decks you keep using :ner:
Go on Griffo, I dare (http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Denon/product/Denon_DL-S1_Moving_Coil_Cartridge.html?osCsid=37c35c3fd4458 7e3cf2f5936812b83a6) you!
...together with the s1 transformer I bet you would wipe the floor with any DV, Koetsu, or whatever!
I'd go for it Griffo. Like you say, the spec is very similar, and if you don't like it I'm sure you'll have no problem selling an A23 to the many DL-103 aficionados on forums, such as Scoobs! ;)
Do you know the best place to order one? If not I can point you in the right direction.
DJ decks? LOL. Come and hear one if you want, and bring your own deck with you for comparison. You might get a shock :eyebrows:
What are you using anyway these days?
Scooby-doo,
What are you doing about the A23 - are you coming for a listen, and has the bread bin got woodworm yet? :lolsign:
Marco.
griffo104
28-04-2008, 15:28
Scoobs, I was VERY tempted by the DL-S1 (I got the 301ii from Audiocubes) and I do think it may end up on the end of my tonearm at sometime in the future.
Marco, I think I may be tempted by the A23. I reread Art Dudley's comments about it in Stereophile last night, and I'm very tempted.
My setup is pretty similar to what it was, Michell Orbe SE and Technoarm. audio analogue Aria has replaced the Dino+ (much more natural sounding and works a treat with the Denon) and then I've added the DL301ii and the AU300-LC trannie. The Lyra dorian is currently sleeping in it's box. I bought the DL301ii to have a play with a budget cart (cost approx £155 on an import from Audiocubes2) and even though I slightly prefer the Dorian I have to say the Denon really does sing and I can't be bothered to swap them back round, says it all about the DL301ii.
I'll have to get a listen to one of the modded SL1210 decks one of these days. I've heard a 'standard' 1200 and remained unimpressed but then sometimes prejudices are very hard to lose.
woodworm...haha
I will come up before the year is out, hopefully before you get the KAB 1210 review up.
I'm going to compare my cost options - a23 vs mc headamp. If I had the cash I'd take a punt on the denon s1 cart and transformer.
Griffo,
I was also tempted by the DL-S1, as I'm sure it would be a superb sounding cartridge and probably better than pretty much anything else that's available. Apparently, it's meant to have amazing midrange detail and sounds as sweet as nut.
The only thing that put me off was the extremely low output (which I've found can sometimes make MC cartridges sound 'weedy' even with a step-up device) and the low tracking force, which again can have this effect as well as the tendency to skip easily and collect lots of crap on the stylus. I'm just not sure it'll have the sheer 'balls' and bass weight of a 103 Pro, which is important to me. I hate anaemic sounding cartridges or ones which make vinyl sound like CD!
You should try a 103 Pro, incidentally - it's a different animal to and much more refined sounding than the standard 103, due to the superior high frequency extension of 55,000Hz (as opposed to the 45,000Hz of the standard model) and some other tweaks, and a total bargain at less than £300 including import duty and taxes. I simply haven't heard a better cartridge than it when properly optimised - even ones at three or four times the price.
As for 1210s, in standard form they are quite simply pants compared to when extensively modified. Don't even think that a KAB-modified one sounds anything remotely like a standard SL-1210! With a standard one you can hear the benefits of the superb D/D motor unit but the cheap PSU, tonearm wiring, interconnects, and horrible rubber mat kill the sound and most of the benefit the motor unit gives.
It really is completely transformed by the KAB PSU, and the (very good quality stock arm!) being fluid-damped and rewired with Cardas cable, terminated in a high quality junction box, which you can use with your favourite interconnects, and the fitting of a good quality magnesium or metal alloy headshell with high quality headshell leads such as those from Clearaudio or Cardas.
Fit the strobe disabler, replace the rubber mat with an SDS Isoplatmat and Funk Firm Achromat to stop the platter ringing like a bell and to provide the ideal interface for the record, and replace the standard counterweight balance for a soild brass one, such as those made by John (Thrunobulaxx). Then replace the standard support feet for Isonoes. Finally, install your favourite MC cartridge. With that all done you've got a seriously top-notch T/T and one which can compete at the highest level, sonically :smoking:
Seriously, I can't listen to belt-drive decks now, unless they're of the really high-mass category, because my ears instantly pick up on the coloration induced by the inferior speed stability and wow and flutter caused by the belt-drive system and/or (in many cases) low-grade PSU, particularly when listening to solo piano, and suchlike.
Basically, an SL-1210 modified as described provides a neutral platform from which to hear the characteristics of your chosen cartridge and your favourite albums in all their glory. If the cartridge has a 'warm' sonic signature, that's what you'll hear, and conversely the same if the cartridge is forward sounding or whatever. Once the weaknesses of the standard deck are eradicated the deck itself has no sonic signature of its own and acts as an open window on to the recording. There is simply little sense of a stylus tracking a plastic groove or the 'bloom', 'thickness', or curtailing of dynamics that is often associated with vinyl when compared to CD - in fact the very opposite!
Hey, I'm almost launching into a review here! :lolsign:
;)
Marco.
griffo104
29-04-2008, 08:04
Marco,
Nice write up matey :), when's that review due then ;)
It's funny but when I had a DL304 many moons ago, track at about 1.2g and very low output, I did think it was a bit weedy to the point of being a little boring, especially with harder rock stuff. Moving to a Goldring Elite was much more of a fuller picture and the bass drove the music on far better than the DL304.
If I stated on a hifi forum that the Elite was a better cart than the DL304 then most would think I was a bit mad but for my music tastes it was better for a lot of the reasons you mention above.
The DL301ii has a better output at 0.4mv but still tracks very lightly at 1.4g. For me the bass performance is far better then the DL304, the midband is lovely, full of detail and tonal colour, although maybe a little inaccurate but I can live with that, and the treble very sweet but never hints at any brightness - it's an excellent cart.
I've had a DL103 for a very short period and didn't get on with it, although I did look at the PRO version, I think the better compatibility with Rega based arms is what helped me choose the DL301ii and so far no regrets.
I was hoping to have a listen to Ray70's KAB 1210 when he had a bake off earlier in the year but sdaly it hadn't been shipped when we went round there, something which was a little bit disappointing. Maybe I'll get a chance in the future to get a listen, they are certainly gaining popularity amongst forum members.
I still prefer a bouncey, belt driven deck though. I found the Orbe with the DC psu and never connected circuitry resolved many of the problems I had with my Lingoed LP12, especially with the massy platter of the Orbe.
I've got a Lenco 75 at home, bought of ebay and I had the intention of replinthing it, getting a better arm on it, replacing the idler wheel for a new one and giving that a try. that was 18 months ago and it's still on the floor in the spare room :lol:
Scoobs,
woodworm...haha
I will come up before the year is out, hopefully before you get the KAB 1210 review up.
Well let's say that I promise to have the review up before Mike finishes building his phono stage! ;)
I'm going to compare my cost options - a23 vs mc headamp. If I had the cash I'd take a punt on the denon s1 cart and transformer.
When you say "mc headamp" do you mean active MC phono stage or an actual head amp? The latter are very thin on the ground, and of the ones available, none suit the 103. I'm a little confused because I thought you were going for a valve MM stage, and if that's the case you really need a properly matched MC step-up transformer for the 103 such as the A23 or AU-S1.
You're welcome to come up any time; I just thought it would be a good idea to hear the A23, with the same deck and cartridge as yours, before you took the plunge with head amps, etc :)
Marco.
Yes I mean MC headamp, the chap building my pre-amp also makes headamps and would employ the same materials as the pre, which makes it an attractive proposition, I cant remember how much he charges for one, so it's likely to come down to cost.
Ah, I see... What you really need to do is compare his MC head amp against the A23 in your system.
I can let you borrow my A23 and send it down to you if you want to do the comparison. I can always go MM for a bit with another cartridge.
Let me know if you're interested. I just want to make sure you make the right decision, and I can't advise properly because the other chap's head amp is an unknown quantity :)
Marco.
Blimey, that's a generous offer Marco, and too good to turn down. He's waiting for V-caps to arrive from the states, so I guess it's looking like the back end of next week, before I get the pre. Maybe he can loan me a headamp, as I've been very patient with him over the last 10 weeks. Can I let you know when I'm in a position to borrow your a23? Many thanks Marco.
No worries, mate. That's what we're here for :)
The other unknown variable of course is what his valve MM stage is like. I've got no idea how it will compare to the one in my Croft, and so don't know what the combined effect will be of his MM stage and the A23 with your 103 Pro compared to what I get, and also with his MC head amp in the equation. If he's voiced his valve preamp and MC headamp together then this may be the best sounding combination.
I'll certainly be interested in your thoughts, so I expect a full write-up ;)
Let me know when you're ready to borrow the A23. I can let you have it for a week so you are able to conduct proper and meaningful tests.
Marco.
Cheers Marco. The pre is a simple design based on the kondo m7, and uses NOS Mullards like your Croft.
Ah, I wondered. I was going to ask you what valves it used.
Sounds good. I'm sure you'll have some interesting listening ahead :)
Keep me posted!
Marco.
Well looky here...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2063.jpg
A certain very nice gentleman has lent me this bog-standard 1210 for a while, as I'd been harping on about wanting to find out how one would sound.
Just fitted my old (but still low-mileage) MC15 Super into it.
I get a sneaking feeling there's a rather fine (ok bloody good) turntable bubbling away here, below the surface ;)
And you'd be right to think that, Richard! :smoking:
The quality of the motor unit is phenomenal. Once the deck's little 'foibles' (as I have outlined previously) have been attended to you, quite simply, have a world class T/T on your hands.
Marco.
Wahey, good one Rich. Party at Gromit towers tonight! Enjoy.
:gig:
Just popped the Lyra into the Technics - blimey (in substitution for stronger words) it sounds good. :gig:
Obligatory porn shot...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2069.jpg
How much would a 1210 be now if at kept in line with inflation/competition from when it was first introduced? Sure it's not as controlled as the NAS nor as 'big' sounding but it's given it more than just a slight fright. :)
Nice one, Richard. Superb pic! :smoking:
Just popped the Lyra into the Technics - blimey (in substitution for stronger words) it sounds good.
Observe my earlier comments:
Basically, an SL-1210 modified as described provides a neutral platform from which to hear the characteristics of your chosen cartridge and your favourite albums in all their glory. If the cartridge has a 'warm' sonic signature, that's what you'll hear, and conversely the same if the cartridge is forward sounding or whatever. Once the weaknesses of the standard deck are eradicated the deck itself has no sonic signature of its own and acts as an open window on to the recording. There is simply little sense of a stylus tracking a plastic groove or the 'bloom', 'thickness', or curtailing of dynamics that is often associated with vinyl when compared to CD - in fact the very opposite!
And at the moment you're using it in stock form with all its inherent limitations. How can the Lyra sound so good in a 'crap, mass-produced, DJ tonearm', for example? ;)
How much would a 1210 be now if at kept in line with inflation/competition from when it was first introduced?
Well, the motor unit itself would cost many thousands of pounds for any British manufacturer to produce - that's providing they had the engineering know-how, tooling, and technological nous to make it in the first place! A company like SME could perhaps have a stab at it but I suspect not many others! The other parts (tonearm, operational ancillaries, PSU, etc) wouldn't cost much because Technics have refined mass production down to a fine art, but that doesn't mean the parts themselves aren't any good! Quite the opposite is true because they're engineered to an extremely high level of mechanical tolerance.
I guess that if a British manufacturer were able to produce a direct-drive mechanism of the same quality as the SL-1210, together with the ancillaries mentioned above it would sell for perhaps £5-6k, but in terms of sonic performance compared to what else is currently available on the market, when fully modified as I described earlier and fitted with a decent cartridge, I would comfortably put it in the £8-10k bracket, and even then it will still compete with some truly exotic designs at many times that price purely because of the fundamental excellence of its engineering. It's a very special T/T, Richard, the likes of which are simply no longer made.
Sure it's not as controlled as the NAS nor as 'big' sounding but it's given it more than just a slight fright
I'm not surprised in the slightest. When fully modified I would expect it to completely outperform the NAS, which is an excellent T/T in its own right. Thus modified, the SL-1210 will be in a different league altogether.
Marco.
Well, the motor unit itself would cost many thousands of pounds for any British manufacturer to produce - that's providing they had the engineering know-how, tooling, and technological nous to make it in the first place! A company like SME could perhaps have a stab at it but I suspect not many others! The other parts (tonearm, operational ancillaries, PSU, etc) wouldn't cost much because Technics have refined mass production down to a fine art, but that doesn't mean the parts themselves aren't any good! Quite the opposite is true because they're engineered to an extremely high level of mechanical tolerance.
I guess that if a British manufacturer were able to produce a direct-drive mechanism of the same quality as the SL-1210, together with the ancillaries mentioned above it would sell for perhaps £5-6k, but in terms of sonic performance compared to what else is currently available on the market, when fully modified as I described earlier and fitted with a decent cartridge, I would comfortably put it in the £8-10k bracket, and even then it will still compete with some truly exotic designs at many times that price purely because of the fundamental excellence of its engineering. It's a very special T/T, Richard, the likes of which are simply no longer made.
Huh? :scratch:.... I must be missing the point somehow.
http://www.decks.co.uk/products/decks/technics/sl1210mk5
LOL. You're not missing the point, Mike.
I was referring to high quality direct-drive motor units and the standards of engineering seen in the likes of the SL-1210. Outside of companies such as SME, who have genuine engineering prowess, the vast majority of T/Ts produced these days, certainly in the 'affordable' sector of the market, are by companies who don't have the necessary tooling and expertise to engineer T/Ts to the standard of the SL-1210. They utilise other aspects of their design skills instead to make their products competitive.
As far as high quality direct-drive motor units are concerned, in the British market only Technics and Stanton have units for sale of the required standard. Others such as 'Numark', etc, are clones of either Technics or Stanton units and are not finished to the same standards of construction.
There is no hope in hell of any British turntable manufacturer producing a direct-drive T/T of the 1210's quality for £375!
Is that clearer now? :)
Marco.
There is no hope in hell of any British T/T manufacturer producing a direct-drive T/T of the 1210's quality for £375!
Is that clearer now? :)
Marco.
Yes...... seen this?:
http://www.grandprixaudio.com/prod_monaco_turntable.php
:)
Yes, and it costs $19,500!!
Which is around £9.5k. I'm sure it sounds great, though. But that's the sort of money you have to pay to get the level of performance of the SL-1210 from a 'hi-end' T/T manufacturer. The reason the SL-1210 is so cheap to buy is because Technics have the resources to mass-produce them to a high standard at, frankly, ridiculous low cost to the consumer. It most certainly doesn't mean that they are 'cheap' T/Ts in terms of construction or performance. That's the fatal mistake many audiophiles and 'badge snobs' make when judging the SL-1210 as a 'serious' hi-fi T/T. They will often choose something else with a more desirable 'badge', often a belt-drive T/T, but which is fundamentally inferior.
I rest my case :)
Marco.
Yes, and it costs $19,500!!
Which is around £9.5k.
12K actually!.... You are forgetting the 'rip off Britain markup'! :(
Sounds fantastic apparently. Well, according to RG that is. ;)
Yep, you're right, but in *real* terms how much better will it be than a fully modified 1210 or a properly fettled and partnered SP10 in a decent plinth?
I'm sure it does sound fantastic, but on the basis of the above, is the cost of the Monaco deck justified?
Maximum sound-per-pound is where I'm at these days. If I was to drop £12k on a T/T it would have to be for much more than simply 'audiophile jewellery', and it would certainly need to be £10k better sounding than my (approx) £2k modified SL-1210!!
Marco.
Yep, you're right, but in *real* terms how much better will it be than a fully modified 1210 or a properly fettled and partnered SP10 in a decent plinth?
On that basis, is the cost of the Monaco deck justified?
How the bloody hell would I know! :confused:
It'll be a long long time till I have a spare twelve grand for a TT!!! :unfair:
Mate, when you get your deck up and running, and your phono stage built, any thoughts of lusting after £12k T/Ts will quickly evaporate! :trust:
Marco.
Hmmm.... maybe I should get the deck outa the box. :eyebrows:
It's still in there! :mental:
No you're waiting first for my 'imminent' review! :D
I've tackled a lot of it in my last few posts on the thread anyway.
Marco.
Marco cheers for linking into this topic. I am really looking forward to the review I am interested in your thought process on the modifcations, how they helped improve sound, a quick idea of cost and difficulty of modifications would be much appreicated as well.
Hi John,
To save a load of palaver on here, and me repeating stuff I've written already, PM me and I'll give you my number and we can have a chat :smoking:
Marco.
Cut 'n pasted from Wigwam as I did forget that Marco's the SL-1210 masta:
I have noticed some turntable rumble on my SL-1210... I guess this is one unwelcome introduction to vinyl! I have heard that rumble can often be cut into the record in the first place.
Still, even when a side of vinyl has finished playing & is still spinning, if I crank it up a bit I can see my woofers pumping (not ridiculously so). This really doesn't seem to be an issue at my playing volumes (in a second floor flat).
Does anyone use rumble filters, or could enlighten me to the cause?
I am presently using the MC card built-in to my Exposure 2010S, which I do notice hisses pretty loudly with a hint of woofer movement when vinyl's not spinning & volume is cranked right up (feedback?).
Hi Yom,
I've not experienced this before with my 1210, so I'm a little unsure what to advise. Like you say, it could be a feedback problem.
A few questions:
What do you sit your deck on - is it a proper equipment support or just a piece of ordinary furniture? Is the 'rumble' present during playback of the music or just when a side of vinyl has finished but is still spinning? And is there often excessive cone excursion when music is being played at moderate volume? Lastly, when was the last time you oiled the bearings on the motor?
Meanwhile perhaps some of the other 1210 users could offer their thoughts?
Marco.
Hi Yom,
I've not experienced this before with my 1210, so I'm a little unsure what to advise. Like you say, it could be a feedback problem.
A few questions:
What do you sit your deck on - is it a proper equipment support or just a piece of ordinary furniture? Is the 'rumble' present during playback of the music or just when a side of vinyl has finished but is still spinning? And is there often excessive cone excursion when music is being played at moderate volume? Lastly, when was the last time you oiled the bearings on the motor?
Meanwhile perhaps some of the other 1210 users could offer their thoughts?
Marco.
It sits on a massive wooden coffee table. Not optimal by any means I know!!!
The 'rumble' is present during playback, but it isn't a worrying amount, just clearly noticable when A/Bing between the same album in CD & vinyl.
Haven't oiled the bearing ever.
There's a small amount of cone movement (at reasonably high volume) when the vinyl's finished but still spinning.
I am guessing that the table is the root of the problem :P At my listening levels, it's really not a problem, but when I move out & get to crank it up, I think I should invest in a dedicated rack.
Yom,
I think you need to invest in a wall shelf - a Quadraspire one would be good.
Also, how long have you had your deck and how much use does it get?
If the answers are a long time and often, get those bloody bearings oiled, or one day you might find that your motor is no more! :(
That could well be the cause of your rumble...
Marco.
Mike,
Could you go to one of these:
http://www.audiocubes2.com/category/Cartridges/product/Audio-Technica_AT33PTG_Prestige_MC_Stereo_Cartridge.html ?osCsid=a3a38b99f36aecec62b93456ce01d1d7
They are extraordinarily good for the money, and as good as anything up to £1000! It's the usual 'the best stuff goes to the non-UK market' scenario. The AT-33PTG is a veritable giant-killer, and it has the balance of sonic virtues you're looking for. It is also far better than an OC-9!
Marco,
I've taken your advice and ordered a 33PTG direct from Japan. It's currently in Lithuania (?!?) according to the 'tracker'.
If it's crap, it's all your fault and I will be popping round to insert a large garden gnome into you! (guess where I nicked that phrase from?).
:lolsign:
Cheers,
Mike.
Hi Mike,
Well done. I think I should avoid being 'gnomed' - you'll love it :)
Did you use Audiocubes or one of the Japanese Ebay sellers?
Marco.
Ordered from here:
http://www.joynetmall.com/shop/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=24&products_id=506
:)
Looks fine, Mike. Let us know when it arrives :smoking:
You might have to get the deck out of its box, though, to fit it and set it up... Oh the bother-ation :lolsign:
Marco.
You might have to get the deck out of its box, though, to fit it and set it up... Oh the bother-ation :lolsign:
Marco.
Oh bugger!
Err, I best get on with this phono stage too, ahem!
I've been dithering a bit till I decided what cartridge to use. Last weekend I got fed up of procrastinating and ordered the cartridge and a pair of WD step-up transformers and a few other bit n' piece's including a new Hadcock headshell. The plan is to find some appropriate SS tube and convert it to a 242, adds a bit more mass, see?
I've got this weekend (excluding tonight) with no on-call or 'other plans' to get in the way. Time to get cracking!
:)
Nice piccy of step-up tranny's.
Yum Yum. :)
http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/MCT1.jpg
I'm trying to get the SL120 out of it's box.
Jeez!..... anyone got a crane I can borrow? :please:
Marco,
I've taken your advice and ordered a 33PTG direct from Japan. It's currently in Lithuania (?!?) according to the 'tracker'.
If it's crap, it's all your fault and I will be popping round to insert a large garden gnome into you! (guess where I nicked that phrase from?).
:lolsign:
Cheers,
Mike.
Hmmm..... So much for the tracking information!
It is allegedly still in Lithuania. I say 'allegedly' because it's about a foot away from me as I type!
I'd best get my finger out with this phono stage, although I'm still waiting for the MC traffo's to show up.
:smoking:
Prince of Darkness
27-05-2008, 15:23
Hmmm..... So much for the tracking information!
It is allegedly still in Lithuania. I say 'allegedly' because it's about a foot away from me as I type!
Still, that's better than having the tracking information say it's with you when it's really in Lithuania.:lolsign:
Oh, there is another slight problem.
Being a 'Japan only' model the documentation is (of course) all in Japanese!
I haven't got a clue what sort of loading this thing likes! :confused:
It does, however, come with a few useful little extras, such as long and short mounting screws, a nice cleaning brush, screwdriver, and last but not least, a set of PCOCC headshell leads. Which is nice. :)
Cheers,
Mike.
and last but not least, a set of PCOCC headshell leads.
Which are detachable and therefore bugger all use in your Hadcock :lol:
Never mind you can send them to me ;)
The following should be of use regarding your AT33PTG:
Specifications:
Type: MC type
Playback frequency range: 15 - 50,000Hz
Output voltage: 0.5mV (1kHz and 5cm/sec.
Channel separation: 30dB (1kHz)
Output balance: 0.5dB (1kHz)
Stylus pressure: 1.6 - 2.0g (1.8g standard)
Coil impedance: 17 Ohms (1kHz)
Direct current resistance: 17 Ohms
Load resistance: 20 Ohms or more
Coil inductance: 70 mu H (1kHz)
Static compliance: 40×±0 - 6 cm/dyne
Dynamic compliance : 10×±0 - 6 cm/dyne (100Hz)
Needle tip form: Micro linear (ML)
Vertical tracking angle: 23?
External size: L26.5 × W 16.6 × H16mm
Mass (cartridge): 6.8g
I would go for 100ohms (the norm) and optimise it if necessary from there :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco,
I'd already unearthed that info though :)
20 ohms or more is a bit of use, but not that much!
Quite right about the headshell leads with the Haddock, but they'll come in handy sooner or later. ;)
No worries, mate. Like I said, go for 100ohms, which is 'standard' for an MC and tweak it from there. Flexibility is one of the benefits of going the D.I.Y route :smoking:
Marco.
Just got one of these on ebay - damn cheap.
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/pioneer/pl-71.shtml link to brochure.
Sad but I remember this beast early 70's. I lusted after one then but couldn't afford it, made do with a PL12AC (much better built than the PL12D). Top of the range of Pioneer t/t, considered by many the best technical expression of the DD until the 1980's Trio LC07D.
Beautifull construction and nearly twice as heavy as the Technics - steel base with real walnut top.
So now I have a 1210 and collecting this beast next week, though the 1210 is out on loan, so which one gets the work done on it is up for votes. But for looks this Pioneer is so beautifull and is built like a tank and beats the 1210 on that basis.
Looks great, Richard. Nice find :)
I (and I'm sure a few others) look forward to reading about your forthcoming escapades with it.
Marco.
Looks great, Richard. Nice find :)
I (and I'm sure a few others) look forward to reading about your forthcoming escapades with it.
Marco.
This thing is as rare as hens teeth in the UK (far more common stateside) and I was surprised to find it on ebay. To get it for the price I paid was a bigger surprise, only one person recognised it for what it is and the rest just thought it was one of yer run o' the mill cheapy DDs. It only got bid up to £9.99 with 30secs to go, but I was willing to go over £100 for it, got it for £68. The motor is bigger and stronger with more poles than the 1210 and the PSU is more advanced and complex and so needs less modding. Some cap changes mostly because of age then just regulators and some big fat high va torroid trannies. The only thing I am unsure about is the arm, but we will see when I get it.
Up there at least with the Microseiki and I think probably better, and Microseiki's are going at double 1210 prices when they come up at ebay. They are a lot rarer, but not as rare as this.
This is very interesting, espacially the EMT and the pro Pioneers.
http://www.thevintageknob.org/MISCELLANEOUS/SS1980TT/SS1980TT.html
I want one
http://www.thevintageknob.org/PIONEER/P3/P3.html
The domestic version was PL70 which has much in common motor and construction wise with the PL71 I just bought. Wish I had that arm to play with though.
Help yourself:
http://www.hifido.com/KW/G0301/P0/A10/E/0-10/S0/C08-37468-21740-00/
;)
Help yourself:
http://www.hifido.com/KW/G0301/P0/A10/E/0-10/S0/C08-37468-21740-00/
;)
Gulp! how much is that in clam shells.
Gulp! how much is that in clam shells.
About 2 grand in our dosh.
Just got myself my very own 1210 this afternoon - a very clean Mk2. Let the tweaking/fiddling/wrecking/swearing begin. :gig:
Another NAS bites the dust eh!
Congrats Rich, No doubt you'll have a lot of fun fettling from scratch.
I wish I had bought a mk2 instead of 5 now. I like the look of the mirror chrome changable covers that are doing the rounds on ebay, for when you fancy a change like.
Just remains to see if you'll buck the tend and keep the faith with the stock arm - we watch with interest!
What did you make of the comparison to Ray's KAB 1210?
Nick - the comparison with Ray's KAB was a very interesting experience. Needless to say his rig sounds marvellous, especially on orchestral music, being musically intense and with bags of scale and colour. The Mk5G does also look da bollox. :)
The bias was perhaps tipped slightly in favour of the standard 1210 as it had the Lyra fitted as opposed to the DL304 in Ray's KAB - I'm a huge fan (as you know) of the 103 and its ilk but I'm not so much of the 304. Still, in the the KAB it did play very well and despite my slight reservation over the cartridge, the KAB was obviously better. Still, with the Dorian in the std deck it was still quite a shock how good it sounded.
Spent yesterday evening comparing 'my' 2 1210's - it's quite interesting how different they sound to eachother. I've used the exact same cartridge and mat in both, yet they still have slightly different characteristics. One is sprightlier but slightly coarse, the other is bigger, bolder but perhaps more musically 'measured'. This was a surprise in as much as I didn't expect two mass-produced turntables to sound that dissimilar. I am wondering if my 1210 isn't really run-in yet? The previous owner states it's only had a few hours' use in its 3 years of life.
Nick - the comparison with Ray's KAB was a very interesting experience. Needless to say his rig sounds marvellous, especially on orchestral music, being musically intense and with bags of scale and colour. The Mk5G does also look da bollox. :)
The bias was perhaps tipped slightly in favour of the standard 1210 as it had the Lyra fitted as opposed to the DL304 in Ray's KAB - I'm a huge fan (as you know) of the 103 and its ilk but I'm not so much of the 304. Still, in the the KAB it did play very well and despite my slight reservation over the cartridge, the KAB was obviously better. Still, with the Dorian in the std deck it was still quite a shock how good it sounded.
Spent yesterday evening comparing 'my' 2 1210's - it's quite interesting how different they sound to eachother. I've used the exact same cartridge and mat in both, yet they still have slightly different characteristics. One is sprightlier but slightly coarse, the other is bigger, bolder but perhaps more musically 'measured'. This was a surprise in as much as I didn't expect two mass-produced turntables to sound that dissimilar. I am wondering if my 1210 isn't really run-in yet? The previous owner states it's only had a few hours' use in its 3 years of life.
Good to see you've taken the plunge Richard!
As I told you on the night, I was amazed at how good the stock 1210 was. I also agreed that the KAB sounded better, but the stock 1210 is an excellent platform for further tweakery.
With hindsight, I'm glad I bought the KAB because I know how little willpower I have. If I had bought the stock, I know that I would be having constant thoughts of upgrading in the back of my mind, and it probably would have detracted from my enjoyment of the music. With the fully modded KAB, there's nothing else I want to do with it - except spin more records.
Good luck with the journey Richard - keep us informed about how you get on!
Great stuff, Richard, and welcome to da 1210 club! :smoking:
I knew you'd end up getting one of your own, and you'll no doubt have lots of fun modifying it :)
I would suggest the first thing to do is ditch the stock rubber mat and buy an SDS Isoplatmat to damp the ringing in the platter and top it with a Herbie's or Achromat, then fit a decent headshell (I have a spare AT magnesium one you can have F.O.C if you like) and then get the arm rewired - this is essential to hear what the stock arm is capable of.
That should be enough to keep you going in the meantime. Let's see some pics of the beast in situ! :gig:
Marco.
Marco - the new'un seems to be loosening up now and background noise is definitely quietening down. Don't think it's had much use (previous owner reckons a few hours tops) so perhaps it just needed using?
I've ordered a Sumiko h/s but if you're happy letting me have a play with an AT one it'd be briliant. Don't know how long it'll take for the Sumiko h/s to arrive and my borrowed 1210's got to go back next week. My own 1210 didn't come with a h/s as it was fitted with an unused Ortofon Concorde Night Club E cartridge (which'll be up for sale as I don't have an MM input).
For the time being I've just placed the Ringmat on top of the Techy mat which has brought a 'blimey' reaction from yours truly. Works damn well in fact, surprisingly so.
Current plan..
1. Arm re-wire
2. Achromat (I loved what this does on the TT's I've heard it on)
3. Isonoe feet
Hi Richard,
You can have the headshell for nowt, mate - in fact I will send you two of them so you can decide which one you like best (one is shorter in length than the other). PM me your addy and I'll send them off to you. You will then be able to assess the difference whilst waiting for your Sumiko to arrive :)
Btw, make sure you remove the small rubber washer between the headshell bayonet fixing and the tonearm - it sounds better without it (this was the original subject of the thread many pages ago!)
I would also strongly advise you to buy an SDS Isoplatmat. The Achromat is excellent for providing an ideal interface with the record but it doesn't dampen resonance in the platter as effectively as the SDS, which is why I use both. The difference in sound quality when both are in use is significant.
I'm with you on the arm rewire, as it is essential. If you would like to borrow a brass counterweight balance to replace the standard one, like Rich and me use, I can send you one along with the headshells. It does make a fairly substantial difference, and along with the rewiring and headshell replacement totally transforms the performance of the stock tonearm.
I wouldn't be in a big hurry to buy Isonoes, as the effect they have is quite subtle (at least it is in my system) considering their relatively high cost. If you're serious about trying these I could give you a loan of mine at some point and you can decide for yourself if they're worth the money or not.
Hope this helps :smoking:
ATB,
Marco.
That's great Marco - PM sent. :)
Edit: Oh....and here it is in its unfettered glory:
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2097.jpg
No worries, mate. I'll get that organised for you :)
It's looking good - nice and 'clean'! :smoking:
Marco.
No worries, mate. I'll get that organised for you :)
It's looking good - nice and 'clean'! :smoking:
Marco.
Thanks. :)
The deck's pretty much spotless - it was quite dusty when I got it (reckon it's stood doing nowt for a long time) but it may as well be brand new, bar a couple of tiny scratches on the lid. :)
Marco, a question please?
I had it on very good authority that the headshell washer is there for good reason - it breaks up resonances in the joint, rather than directing them elsewhere.
I appreciate Grahams HiFi were selling ADC headshells by the dozen way back and recommending removing the washer. I just preferred it in place with a Linn LVV arm...
Perhaps it's another Linn "judgement" applying only to their products...
Marco, a question please?
I had it on very good authority that the headshell washer is there for good reason - it breaks up resonances in the joint, rather than directing them elsewhere.
Interesting point - something that has crossed my mind. I think it's worth having a play, seeing as I've a couple of hours' QT on my own this afternoon. :)
The KAB modified arm is damped utilising a fluid trough, additionally the Zupreme headshell that I use has 2 lugs (as opposed to the one on the standard) that dock very snugly with the bayonet, I feel the rubber ring in this instance is overkill. Got to be worth playing about with on a stock arm though.
Marco, a question please?
I had it on very good authority that the headshell washer is there for good reason - it breaks up resonances in the joint, rather than directing them elsewhere.
I appreciate Grahams HiFi were selling ADC headshells by the dozen way back and recommending removing the washer. I just preferred it in place with a Linn LVV arm...
Perhaps it's another Linn "judgement" applying only to their products...
Hi Dave,
Welcome back! I thought you had abandoned us ;)
I wouldn't dispute your assertion in the slightest - my comments are based purely on experience of the results in my system, however I think Scoobs makes a good point in his last post.
My advice is to 'suck it and see', as is always the case with these things. Incidentally the difference, should one be heard, is quite subtle so anyone trying this tweak shouldn't be expecting night and day differences.
I'll be interesting to hear what Richard thinks :)
Marco.
Well whaddaya know??
Didn't get chance to do much listening with the rubber inserted (ooer) yesterday but did spin a couple of records this morning. Conclusion?
One example I can say, without question, where there was an improvement: 1st movement Shostakovich 11 - huge string sounds, over which there is laid a lone trumpet. Without the grommet it tends to spit slightly, as though the sound breaks up. With, and it gains body and grows in volume more consistently without break-up. Will leave it in place now for a few days then remove it to re-check the findings. Quick A-B's aren't always the best way to judge stuff IMHO. :)
I've also found it's possible to tighten the fixing more firmly with the grommet in place, so it may even make for a more solid coupling. Who knows. :)
I'm not surprised you've come to that conclusion, Richard :)
I think it's highly likely, as Scoobs says, that with fluid damping in use and a high quality headshell, which already aids solid coupling, the rubber washer/gromit is a step too far and unnecessary. It certainly doesn't produce a beneficial effect in my set-up.
It'll be interesting to hear what you think when I send you the magnesium headshells (prob Sat), and we'll see if you get a different result then. Incidentally I can also send you the Zu-Supreme, as I'm not using it just now with having recently bought the Audio Technica. You can then compare it to the Sumiko when it arrives and do your own 'headshell rolling' :smoking:
Actually, you can never have too many spare headshells with a detachable headshell arm - it means you can set-up an array of different cartridges to simply plug in and play (after adjusting VTF and VTA accordingly) which is very cool!
Btw, did you get a little plastic alignment tool with your 1210? It makes cartridge alignment a breeze.
Marco.
In light of this, I popped the rubber grommet back on last night in curiosity and found that it thickened up, and dulled the sound pretty much from top to bottom.
Richard, how's the azimuth on your arm/headshell? It seems that a fair few guys (including myself) have less than perfect planarity. Of course this is no longer any problem with a hedashell like the Sumiko or Zupreme fitted.
Lyra, by their own admission, state their cartridges dump a lot of energy into an arm so something which adds a tiny bit of 'loss' into the proceedings may be helping. Perhaps this is what would explain the slight improvement I'm hearing - it's damping a (cartridge/arm-specific) resonance.
Could also explain why the Dorian sounds quite magical in the Spacearm where some cartridges can sound a little soft and woolly.
My Sumiko's not turned up yet. :confused:
If you ordered it from Stoneaudio, then you may be waiting a while longer. Lefty and at least one other waited a long time for their's to arrive, for some reason.
If you ordered it from Stoneaudio, then you may be waiting a while longer. Lefty and at least one other waited a long time for their's to arrive, for some reason.
Nick - I've just found the thread elsewhere about Stone Audio where Lefty describes his Sumiko ordering experience. Too late unfortunately. :(
Shame is if I'd looked on eBay Chord2425 (or whatever he's called) has them in stock and, having used him before, his delivery is super-quick.
Well Marco, worry is over as I played on near max volume using my acrylic mat instead of a vinyl & was no 'rumble' at all :)
Richard, I had to cancel my Stone Audio order for the Sumiko headshell a couple of months ago as I couldn't wait past three weeks...
In light of this, I popped the rubber grommet back on last night in curiosity and found that it thickened up, and dulled the sound pretty much from top to bottom.
Richard, how's the azimuth on your arm/headshell? It seems that a fair few guys (including myself) have less than perfect planarity. Of course this is no longer any problem with a hedashell like the Sumiko or Zupreme fitted.
I removed the grommet from my headshell and am experiencing much the same: more air, clarity and bass definition... interesting! I will have to change back when I've spent some proper time sans-grommet. I wonder if the grommet has a decoupling effect, which could affect transfer of vibrational energy away from the headshell & cart. Maybe would explain the 'muddying' that Scoobs talked about.
Sorry for the edit: added "am I chatting sheeeet?"
Or the grommet allows a certain amount of 'wobble' thereby 'muddying' things?
If some of the energy from the cartridge is lost through a daft little bit of rubber then surely some information is being lost?
Or am I also chatting shit?
:lolsign:
The standard tonearm is still bobbins though. <He said, poking Marco in the eye again :)>
wouldn't taking out the grommet change the alignment of the cartridge? That is, shouldn't you set it forward on the headshell, I guess, 1 mm? Could that explain the change in sound?
I haven't tried taking out the grommet BTW, but it just occurred to me... :scratch:
Many thanks to Marco for sending me a couple of bits'n'bobs to try on my 1210...
1. A pair of AT headshells of differing size/weight
2. Zu Supreme headshell (looks identical to the Sumiko I think?)
3. Cardas headshell leads
4. Bling bling counterweight (looks v nice!).
First off I fitted the Dorian into the Zu and used the Cardas leads. Initial findings are immediate and obvious - greater clarity, HF extension (there's more sparkle on stuff that should sparkle), bass is less bloomy and seems quicker. Vocals have gained some character and inflection too. Overall it offers a quicker, more up-beat musical presentation with greater punch. No downsides.
After 20 mins or so I fitted the counterweight - this is a lot less obvious in what it does. Perhaps a mite smoother, less ragged. On its own I probably wouldn't worry about it too much until after I'd done the other mods - the headshell/leads has made a more significant improvement. Still, it does look damn cool. :smoking:
Obligatory piccie...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2138.jpg
Nice one, Richard. You're welcome – looking good, mate! :smoking:
It just shows what a few tiny bits of wire and a headshell can do, eh?
The Cardas leads really do make a difference, and it will give you an inkling of what to expect when you have the arm fully rewired. I can't stress enough how the stock wiring really does hold back the arm's performance.
Once fluid damped (this is the next mod I'd recommend you carry out after the rewiring) with the new headshell and leads, and counterweight balance, the sonic ability of the arm will be in a different league. Trust me, you will not feel inclined to 'upgrade' (and I use the inverted commas deliberately!) it to a Rega or a Tecnoarm :eyebrows:
You are welcome to hold on to the Zu headshell until your Sumiko arrives so you can enjoy the improved performance it's giving and compare it to the Sumiko. You may prefer one over the other (they are slightly different) and like I said it's always handy having a few spare quality headshells.
You're right, the effect of the brass counterweight balance is more subtle but you'll find that once your ears are attuned to the way the arm presents music with it in situ, going back to the standard item is a definite downgrade. You will sense a certain 'magic' missing in deck's musical presentation.
Furthermore, the one I sent you is a bit of a ‘mish-mash’ of ones Thruno made for me until I got the mass right. To hear its maximum effect you need to have one made to compliment your Dorian so that the c/w balance is butted up as close to the pivot point as possible, which at the moment it isn't. However, like the headshell, you're welcome to keep hold of it for as long as you need.
Have fun, enjoy your tunes, and keep us posted of any new developments!
:gig:
Marco.
Coming together Rich, nice one.
Just to add to Marco's comments on the counterweight, I found obvious gains with the addition of it, however mine is heavier still I think at 60gm. As he says the closer you get the bulk mass to the front of the stub the better, may be an idea to pop the little aux weight on to the back of the stub and move the main weight forward a little.
may be an idea to pop the little aux weight on to the back of the stub and move the main weight forward a little.
Hi Nick - I added the aux weight about 10 mins after taking the picture, it does mean the main weight is now about 5mm further forward.
I'm going to contact Stone Audio tomorrow and ask them why, if an item ordered is out of stock, there is no notification of such to the customer. Bad Form if you ask me. Even an automated 'sorry but the item you have ordered is on back order etc etc' would be a small step in the right direction.
Richard,
Stone Audio are notorious for taking ages to ship orders. Half the stuff they advertise on their website isn't in stock. What'll be happening is they'll have ordered a Sumiko from the States and will be waiting for it to arrive. Bearing in mind that it took about 3 weeks for my Zu Supreme to arrive from America, you've probably got another couple of weeks for your Sumiko to get to Stone Audio.
If you don't get a satisfactory answer I would cancel your order, get a refund, and order one from here:
http://www.needledoctor.com/Sumiko-HS12-Headshell?sc=9
I've used them before and they're very quick and efficient, even considering stuff is coming from the States. You'll still probably get it quicker than you will from Stone Audio!
Failing that, if you like the Zu, we can come to a deal on it and keep what you've got.
Have you noticed any difference now with the c/w balance positioned nearer the pivot point?
Marco.
Any joy with Stone Audio, Rich? :)
Marco.
Marco - where did you get the Cardas leads from?
By the way, I have three of those Zu headshells. One has a Dynavector 20Vx and one has a Denon 304. The third one is currently empty, but there is a AT 33PTG on it's way from Japan to join it. Oh the joy of interchangeable headshells!
Still plan to try a 103pro, but I think I have enough to be getting on with for the time being!
Anyone tried the Zu DL103?
Peter Stockwell
12-06-2008, 10:56
I'm getting ready to plunge, been umming and ahhing for weeks now. Even told the missus I wouldn't buy one until after the redecoration.
Had been lusting after an SP10 mk2, but I think that's a road to ruination, even if the results may well be worth it. I'm sure I'll find out for myself, but anyone care to qualify the differences between an unmodified SL1200/SL1210 and a Garrard 401 ?
If I do make the plunge i'll have to make a difficult choice one day ;)
regards
Peter
Peter Stockwell
12-06-2008, 11:38
Ok, me again.
Just looked at the KAB site. I also looked at the current USD/€ exchange rate. I could get a KAB SL1200 including import duties for almost the same price as a new SL1210 here!
I'm thinking that the power supply and the strobe dissabler are must haves, what else is worth going for ?
cheers
Peter
Hi Peter.
If you're right about the price of a KAB with shippping & import tax being so close to french new stock, then it's simply a no brainer! The PSU is a major upgrade, no doubt, but the strobe disabler is not so significant, neither is the clamp if taken in isolation.
The killer KAB upgrades without doubt are the arm re-wire and fluid damping, this what takes the 1200 into the big players league, a few additional tweaks to the arm (all covered in this thread) along with a decent platter mat are the icing on the cake.
Found it difficult to think about how a strobe light would affect the platter rotation in any way :P I do notice that even KAB say disabling it 'could' make a difference or something along those lines.
I wonder, is it really worth sticking with the stock tonearm and modifying it, or will an SME 3009 bring something new and maybe in certain ways 'improved'? Does anyone know any subjective differences in their presentation?
lol...are you're still thinking about that 3009 on ebay? I can't offer a comparison as I've never heard a 3009, maybe Marco can. If you're going to modify the stock arm, you're looking at least a re-wire with tonearm cable and decent rca's. and to get it to it's max potential you're also looking at the fluid damper, headshell and custom counterweight (you've got these last two already haven't you?)
On the other hand, you've got the 3009 that is 103 ready to go, apart from the SME mounting plate and subsequent internal butchery.
He's put another one on ebay now, bit cheaper too. As I understand it the 3009 was primarily designed for MM, and perhaps not ideal for your 103, but the one you've been looking at is rebuilt with the 103 in mind, and comes with a ready built / connected tonearm lead, and an SME fluid damper can be added if required. If I was in your shoes, I would go for the SME.
Peter Stockwell
12-06-2008, 17:39
Hi Peter.
If ... the price of a KAB with shippping & import tax being so close to french new stock, then it's simply a no brainer!
It does, of course depend on how much KAB magic is on the KAB sourced SL12nn.
The PSU is a major upgrade ...
The killer KAB upgrades without doubt are the arm re-wire and fluid damping, this what takes the 1200 into the big players league, a few additional tweaks to the arm (all covered in this thread) along with a decent platter mat are the icing on the cake.
Thanks for that info, I'll look over the thread some more. I can source a used SL12nn, but no real guarantee of what it's been doing, for €200-250, but I've seen a fine looking example for €370. New prices are from €550-650.
What I don't like about the KAB arm rewire is that it goes to either a din connector or RCAs, so there's a cable break. Or is it nowt to "tordre ma culotte" over ?
cheers
Peter
Just in from a busy day, chaps. Rest assured though, I shall answer all the queries here in detail tomorrow :)
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
13-06-2008, 06:55
...but I've seen a fine looking example for €370.
3 months old and with two cartridges (DJ) I can sell on. It's mine :mental:, although I think the missus maybe :steam: !
:champagne:
Marco - where did you get the Cardas leads from?
Hi Ray,
The ones that Richard is currently using I got from KAB USA. They're listed on the website.
By the way, I have three of those Zu headshells. One has a Dynavector 20Vx and one has a Denon 304. The third one is currently empty, but there is a AT 33PTG on it's way from Japan to join it. Oh the joy of interchangeable headshells!
Too right! Nice selection of cartridges, btw. I'll be adding an EMT XSD-15 to my collection soon, but that comes already fitted in its own headshell. Later on down the line I also plan to get an SPU.
Still plan to try a 103pro, but I think I have enough to be getting on with for the time being!
Just a bit! You'll love the 103Pro, and it will have a different sonic signature to your other cartridges, but make sure you use it with its proper step-up transformer, or an A23, otherwise you won't get the best from it.
Marco.
Anyone tried the Zu DL103?
Hi Yomanze,
Yes, and it's very good. I would say it's a cross between a 103Pro and a DL-304, in that it has the sheer 'balls' synonymous of all the 103 variants but also the midrange finesse and detail retrieval of the 304 - looks the biz, too! I seriously considered getting one but decided that I already had enough 103s, having bought the standard model, the 103R and 103Pro.
Marco.
Had been lusting after an SP10 mk2, but I think that's a road to ruination, even if the results may well be worth it. I'm sure I'll find out for myself, but anyone care to qualify the differences between an unmodified SL1200/SL1210 and a Garrard 401 ?
Hi Peter,
I'm familiar with all three decks. If a near mint SP10 MK2 came on the market in a decent plinth, and you could guarantee its history, this in my opinion would be the best of the three decks. The problem is most of them have been used and abused in radio stations or broadcast studios and there are a number of components that are irreplaceable if or when they go pop. This is why I decided to go instead for a fully KAB-modified SL-1210.
It is simply a much safer option, and crucially, there isn't much in it in terms of sound quality when compared to an SP10, providing all else is equal in terms of arm, cartridge, etc. The SP10's motor unit has more torque, which gives it a marginally more solid sound with a little more bass drive, but that's it, and that's providing everything is in full working order which often isn't the case with vintage T/Ts like SP10s.
The reason why SP10s have such a reputation is because they were highly specialised products in their day with a price tag to match (although still very much the poor relations compared to EMTs and suchlike), and somewhat significantly, didn't get used in clubs as 'DJ decks' in the way of the SL-1200/1210. As a result they were always highly respected by the audiophile fraternity, and this continues today, whilst the SL-1200/1210 is often treated as a second-class citizen when in reality this is far from the case.
A Garrard 401 in comparison to both Technics decks will be fuller in the bass, but also softer and more 'lumpy' sounding, too, and somewhat veiled in the upper frequencies. I like idler drive decks and the 401 is an excellent example, but in my view both the SL-1200/1210 when modified and the SP10 have a much tighter, 'grippier', and overall more neutral sound than the 401. It's not neutral as in boring or overly analytical - basically the motor units have little character of their own and simply reproduce what is on the record as told by the partnering arm and cartridge.
Hopefully that should help. If there is anything you would like me to expand on feel free to ask :)
Marco.
Ok, me again.
Just looked at the KAB site. I also looked at the current USD/€ exchange rate. I could get a KAB SL1200 including import duties for almost the same price as a new SL1210 here!
I'm thinking that the power supply and the strobe dissabler are must haves, what else is worth going for ?
Yep, the PSU is an absolute must as it makes a huge difference to the deck's performance. The strobe disabler is worthwhile having, although I've never had the opportunity to compare with and without on my deck. I chose it simply because it made sense as many of these types of light chuck noise into the circuit.
What are you doing about the arm - are you going to keep the stock one and have it modified or will you be replacing it? I can advise on this if you wish and it will also have a bearing on what other KAB mods are worth going for.
Another essential modification, but it's got nothing to do with KAB, is buying a good mat (or mats). The standard rubber one is quite dreadful and simply serves to muddy the sound. You need something which both provides an ideal interface with the record and also completely dampens the ringing in the platter. In my opinion, having tried virtually every mat on the planet, the best combination without a shadow of a doubt is an SDS Isoplatmat in conjunction with a Funk Firm Achromat. You need to use both at the same time for maximum effect and performance.
Apart from that follow the advice from Scoobs and others.
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
13-06-2008, 13:56
Hi Peter,
A Garrard 401 in comparison to both Technics decks will be fuller in the bass, but also softer and more 'lumpy' sounding, too, and somewhat veiled in the upper frequencies. I like idler drive decks and the 401 is an excellent example, but in my view both the SL-1200/1210 when modified and the SP10 have a much tighter, 'grippier', and overall more neutral sound than the 401. It's not neutral as in boring or overly analytical - basically the motor units have little character of their own and simply reproduce what is on the record as told by the partnering arm and cartridge.
Well the missus didn't :steam: anywhere near as much as I thought she might, so tomorrow I'm going to pick up the black beauty. I'll need a starter cartridge for it, AT95E or should I push the boat out and get something better ?
To be honest I'd like to get it running asap, but don't want to go to the trouble of pulling the Grado of the 401. I could, I suppose get a cheap grado and just flip the stylus assemble over for comparisons, hadn't thunk of that. I fear however that the stock mat/platter config of the SL1210 will be to dark to be a good match with a Grado.
I'll ultimately have to choose between the two decks (401/1210), and I've had the 401 10 years now!
cheers
Peter
More later, chaps (including the 3009 thing). I'm off to listen to some tunes :)
Marco.
Any joy with Stone Audio, Rich? :)
Marco.
Haven't been in touch with them yet Marco - will drop them a line later today. PITA thing is that if I'd bothered to look on eBay I could have got the Sumiko off Stuart (Chord blokey) and had it in my grubby mitts now. :(
Peter Stockwell
14-06-2008, 13:43
I could, I suppose get a cheap grado and just flip the stylus assemble over for comparisons, hadn't thunk of that. I fear however that the stock mat/platter config of the SL1210 will be to dark to be a good match with a Grado.
I'll ultimately have to choose between the two decks (401/1210), and I've had the 401 10 years now!
cheers
Peter
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm286/user34_Peter/IMG_1832.jpg
Oh shit! :doh: I'm gobsmacked. I just plonked it on top of my NAP200, put a 30 year old Grado onto it and sounds as good as the 401, at least in terms of musical communications. That, Jimmie Forresst, Saxophone sounds ooooh soooo sweeet.
The technics SL1210 boogies like a bastard!
Peter
I wonder, is it really worth sticking with the stock tonearm and modifying it, or will an SME 3009 bring something new and maybe in certain ways 'improved'? Does anyone know any subjective differences in their presentation?
I've heard a 1200 with a 3009 on it many times, a friend had one for years. It was pretty good to be honest. BUT I sold him my redundant Linn LVX+ arm and it murdered the 3009, I don't know how either compare to the Technics arm but I can definitely say there are other arms which will be a better match than the SME arm.
Cheers,
Mike.
Has anyone tried this under their SL1200... or other turntable? Could it be used to float it in a swimming pool and be the first aquatic DJ?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FreeFloat-DJ-Turntable-Stabilizer-Black-Free-float-Pair_W0QQitemZ290238790845QQihZ019QQcategoryZ48460 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Yom,
Found it difficult to think about how a strobe light would affect the platter rotation in any way :P I do notice that even KAB say disabling it 'could' make a difference or something along those lines.
I don't think it's got anything to do with platter rotation - it's more to do with reducing 'noise' in the circuit, which things like strobe lights can cause. Like I said earlier, for me it made sense to have it fitted but I've got no way of ascertaining its sonic effect. If for no other reason, though, it's worth having it fitted to disable the (rather vulgar) bright red light that shines every time you switch the deck on.
I wonder, is it really worth sticking with the stock tonearm and modifying it, or will an SME 3009 bring something new and maybe in certain ways 'improved'? Does anyone know any subjective differences in their presentation?
My thoughts on the stock tonearm are by now well documented - once it's fully modified with the fluid damper, rewired, etc, it's up there with the best in my experience, so my answer to your question would be "yes".
The 3009 is a decent arm, but unless you're planning to use a high compliance cartridge with it (MM, such as a Shure V-15) I wouldn't bother. It will be pretty useless with most moving coils, although a DL-103 might work if it's a Series II 3009 with the detachable headshell (shown in the link below) as an aftermarket high-mass one could be fitted to facilitate compatibility. I think that combination could work quite well, but in no way would I say it was better than a fully modified stock Technics tonearm. In fact, I would say it would be quite a bit behind it.
SME Series II (shown close-up with SPU in Trond's second picture - scroll up):
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=11802#post11802
Marco.
Peter,
Oh shit! :doh: I'm gobsmacked. I just plonked it on top of my NAP200, put a 30 year old Grado onto it and sounds as good as the 401, at least in terms of musical communications. That, Jimmie Forresst, Saxophone sounds ooooh soooo sweeet.
The technics SL1210 boogies like a bastard!
Hehe... Nice one. I told ya :)
Wait till you have it 'fettled'!
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
15-06-2008, 17:48
Peter,
Wait till you have it 'fettled'!
Marco.
Just getting the PS and the tonearm rewire organised. enfin, ordered at least. Spent most of the day re-organising the kit. The Naim stuff is almost all on one stack, the SL1210 and the phono stage on it's own stand. Can't run two tables at the same time; my Garrard is a thing of beauty but it's now being confined to the cellar until a resurrection some day.
The strong points are immediately obvious, solid constuction, no bloody wobbly bits to go out of kilter. Ease of use that audiophools have long forgotten about, almost instant Start and Stop.
Musically it stuffs any beltdrive wobbledeck I've ever heard. Why ? Because it doesn't tell any lies about pitch or timing! For me that's really the heart and soul of the music. It only took me 5 minutes to decide to retire the Garrard 401/Bastin plinth psu/Spacearm.
A friend has a CDS3/555PS based system. What the SL1210 does, reminds me of that. That is, it keeps everything in perfect order, whilst still allowing all the naturalness and life to come through.
I've not had so much fun with LP for months, maybe years.
Peter
Rich,
Haven't been in touch with them yet Marco - will drop them a line later today. PITA thing is that if I'd bothered to look on eBay I could have got the Sumiko off Stuart (Chord blokey) and had it in my grubby mitts now. :(
No worries. Keep me posted how you get on. At least you've got the Zu to use meanwhile :)
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
17-06-2008, 10:01
The cover of my SL1210 is not as pristine as I would like. I can buy a replacement for about €55. Before doing that is there a non aggresive way to clean up the lid ? As yet I haven't had a go at it with mild soap and water as recommended in the manual.
I'm looking for a European supplier of spare parts, any leads on that? I thought I found one in Ireland, but I lost the trace of it.
I've asked John to make me a counterweight and the Sumiko hadshell should be on its way.
regards
Peter
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