View Full Version : Retro computer audio with Macintosh 4400
I got in an argument about computer audio. Do you you need the latest and greatest computer to play decent hifi sound???
Yes, you need at least two processors, 3 gigs of memory
and the latest operating system. Or a silver aluminium laptop from the fruit company.
Recording audio without special sound-card hardware was available on PowerMac processor Macs in the the middle of 1990's.
Thats 17 years ago! So let's try this out.
I am going to test the oldest computer I have. It is a Macintosh Performa 4400 (200 MHz processor) from 1996.
It has MacOs 8 and a Korg sound-card. The Korg 1212IO card has ASIO drivers (ASIO was new then).
It plays and records 12 channels in and out simultaneusly. 2 analog, 2 spdif and 8 ADAT lightpipe.
We have at least Cubase VST and Deck II.
First problem will be to get the music files on the computer. Back in those days there was no USB. SCSI drive boxes were the norm.
I'll have to find an old PCI slot USB card and Apple drivers.
There is no way to just download music because the machine is so weak that no web browsers run on it.
This is about 5 - 10% computing power compared to current machines.
realysm42
28-08-2012, 15:37
:popcorn:
Do you need the latest and greatest computer to play decent hifi sound???
Short answer, no you don't. I can only vouch for a 1.6GHz single core CPU and 1GB RAM as being the lowest spec I have successfully used, with Windows XP as the O/S. You can play exceptional audio from a much lesser spec machine, especially if its running a Linux kernel.
This low spec, silent and very low power board will play you exceptional audio if you set it up right?
http://store.voyage.hk/prod_images/alix3d2.jpg
OS: Voyage MPD 0.8.5 w/ 3.2.17 kernel
CPU: 500 MHz AMD Geode LX800
DRAM: 256 MB DDR DRAM
Storage: 4GB CompactFlash, pre-loaded with Voyage MPD
You don't need a powerful (or expensive) computer to play high quality audio. I haven't done it with this board myself (yet), but I know a man who has ;)
http://store.voyage.hk/KMPD2g.php?id=65
I don't think your testing yourself hard enough - I've got a Sinclair Spectrum kicking around in the garage somewhere... :eyebrows:
Surprised you can't get a web browser to run, though... Windows 95 machines have no such problems - I've got a similar vintage Pentium 120 which was happily doing porn internet duties when I first started out with Freeserve dialup in 1997! Haven't used it for 8 years or so, has a Soundblaster AWE32 I think - hmmmm...
... which was happily doing porn internet duties when I first started out with Freeserve dialup in 1997! ...
Must be vintage porn by now...:lol:
Beechwoods
28-08-2012, 16:57
There's an old Mozilla build available that runs on OS8.6
http://wamcom.kuix.de/latest-131/
This page may be useful: http://warker.com/2006/10/24/web-browser-for-mac-os-89-users/
And this one: http://lowendmac.com/thompson/06/0103.html
You could even load your music onto a local webserver and use a browser or SSH / FTP client to copy it over. Possibly simpler than trying to get USB working on OS8.
Good luck!
WOStantonCS100
28-08-2012, 18:30
I don't know about early 90's; but, certainly by the late 90's I was employing a Turtlebeach Montego soundcard (in a 486 DX2 80?) and getting quite acceptable results (compared to CD players of the time). I was also using the analog input of that card and a Y cable to record LP's. (I remember placing the PC in the middle of the living room so as to be as far away from the turntable as possible.) I played back one of those CD-R's recently (Also sprach Zarathustra) and, you know, it really doesn't sound all that bad as CD's go, pretty good really. Hi-def or analog it ain't; but, it still (IMO) kills what was to come... mp3's. :spew: :D
Just don't ask me to try and do something with a TRS80!
realysm42
28-08-2012, 18:38
I remember my mum bringing home an old pc from work once; it had an EGA graphics device that was amazing and I think a 16mhz processor. The HDD was 20mb if I remember correctly :D
Couldn't fit one song on that bad boy now ha ha!
My first PC at work didn't even have a hard drive, 2 5.25" floppy drives, one for your software (multiplan or delta back then) & one for your data, were they 360k or something? can't remember
realysm42
28-08-2012, 18:46
512k then 1.44mb if I remember rightly.
bobbasrah
28-08-2012, 19:08
512k then 1.44mb if I remember rightly.
Eh? :scratch: Memory was hazy but then rememberd 40 and 80 track so looked it up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk
My Macintosh Performa 4400 story continues:
I visited a local used computer store. Did find an old Usb PCI card
in their "old junk" box. It must be from Usb 1.0 times. Usb is easier than
file transfer with ftp.
Tried to boot the Mac. It does not start. This model does not boot, if back-up battery is dead. Opened the box.
Battery was so dead that it was leaking. I am going to make a 4.5 volt battery from a plastic AA battery clip.
PC/Mac issues:
I had different pc:s with Windows 95 in the late 90's. All of them have been junked ages ago. Macs seem to last longer.
Multi-channel full duplex audio recording was more advanced on Macs around 1995.
realysm42
28-08-2012, 19:17
I looked at that page too, theres many more capacities than I was ever aware of. Look like I was wrong with the 5.1⁄4 and right with the 3.1/2.
I was about 6 when I had this pc you have to remember.
bobbasrah
28-08-2012, 19:22
I looked at that page too, theres many more capacities than I was ever aware of. Look like I was wrong with the 5.1⁄4 and right with the 3.1/2.
I was about 6 when I had this pc you have to remember.
When I was 6, flints were the latest fashion.......
Reid Malenfant
28-08-2012, 19:32
I was given an old XX86 based computer way back before I bought my first laptop :eyebrows: The extraordinary thing about this machine though was the amount of RAM it had, baring in mind that RAM was expensive & came in chips that were the same as standard DIL ICs.
This thing had either 10Mb or 20Mb, I can't remember which... However all this ram was on a seperate PCB about the same size (though thinner) than a modern 15" laptop :eek:
It cost someone an arm & a leg back in the day :eyebrows:
Good luck with your project Juha, sounds (pardon the pun) interesting :)
I got in an argument about computer audio. Do you you need the latest and greatest computer to play decent hifi sound???
Yes, you need at least two processors, 3 gigs of memory
and the latest operating system. Or a silver aluminium laptop from the fruit company.
Recording audio without special sound-card hardware was available on PowerMac processor Macs in the the middle of 1990's.
Thats 17 years ago! So let's try this out.
I am going to test the oldest computer I have. It is a Macintosh Performa 4400 (200 MHz processor) from 1996.
It has MacOs 8 and a Korg sound-card. The Korg 1212IO card has ASIO drivers (ASIO was new then).
It plays and records 12 channels in and out simultaneusly. 2 analog, 2 spdif and 8 ADAT lightpipe.
We have at least Cubase VST and Deck II.
First problem will be to get the music files on the computer. Back in those days there was no USB. SCSI drive boxes were the norm.
I'll have to find an old PCI slot USB card and Apple drivers.
There is no way to just download music because the machine is so weak that no web browsers run on it.
This is about 5 - 10% computing power compared to current machines.
:mex::mex:
Go Juha! The Korg 1212 was the staple semi-pro / home studio digital card of the time and many people were using it to record etc. I used to have the Korg Soundlink 168RC mixer that was part of it (the 1212 was the digital interface and several A/D and D/A options went along with it). Might even hace the 1212 kicking around somewhere too if I didn't sell it on (this stuff was just going out of favour as I got into computer audio so not too expensive to pick up on early eBay).
So, if that was being used for recording and mastering music for CD then it should be just as good for play back as anything else!
I found an Archimedes RISCPC 600 a while ago with special 16 bit soundcard and I hope music software still on the harddrive (not yet fired it up!).. wonder what that will sound like.
I guess it is storage and memory size which is the problem as you go further back.
WOStantonCS100
28-08-2012, 20:03
My Macintosh Performa 4400 story continues:
I visited a local used computer store. Did find an old Usb PCI card
in their "old junk" box. It must be from Usb 1.0 times. Usb is easier than
file transfer with ftp.
Tried to boot the Mac. It does not start. This model does not boot, if back-up battery is dead. Opened the box.
Battery was so dead that it was leaking. I am going to make a 4.5 volt battery from a plastic AA battery clip.
PC/Mac issues:
I had different pc:s with Windows 95 in the late 90's. All of them have been junked ages ago. Macs seem to last longer.
Multi-channel full duplex audio recording was more advanced on Macs around 1995.
Hey Juha,
Pics (perhaps even a vid) of the equipment/process and final outcome would be interesting, especially for those who are a lot younger than I am. :( :)
Juha, find yourself an Apple PowerCD thing:
http://www.doctorhappymac.co.uk/photos/pages/10_obscure_apple_products/6f4e2_005.jpg
I got one for £10 from ebay: not only a SCSI CD-Rom drive but a fully working external CD player with remote with CDM-9 mech! Also can play your Kodak PhotoCDs on a tv via s-vhs.
I was given an old XX86 based computer way back before I bought my first laptop :eyebrows: The extraordinary thing about this machine though was the amount of RAM it had, baring in mind that RAM was expensive & came in chips that were the same as standard DIL ICs.
This thing had either 10Mb or 20Mb, I can't remember which... However all this ram was on a seperate PCB about the same size (though thinner) than a modern 15" laptop :eek:
It cost someone an arm & a leg back in the day :eyebrows:
Good luck with your project Juha, sounds (pardon the pun) interesting :)
I upgraded our 286 with 2 Mb of extra memory - was a full length ISA card! Newer games seemed to begin to need 1Mb rather than the 640Kb it came with.
My Macintosh Performa 4400 story continues:
I visited a local used computer store. Did find an old Usb PCI card
in their "old junk" box. It must be from Usb 1.0 times. Usb is easier than
file transfer with ftp.
Tried to boot the Mac. It does not start. This model does not boot, if back-up battery is dead. Opened the box.
Battery was so dead that it was leaking. I am going to make a 4.5 volt battery from a plastic AA battery clip.
Could you try serial to serial transfer? Might need two old macs though, not sure if an old mac would talk to a PC ok, assuming you still have a PC with a serial port of course... would probably need a cable to be made for the mac's round serial port
Thanks for encouragement.
Still having problems in booting the old computer. Now it almost starts.
The os is MacOS 8.6. Booting stays on loading extensions screen. Hard disk
seems to be doing some heavy maintenance. I'll leave the machine on overnight.
Maybe it finally boots.
Had a look at the Korg card. It has the TDA1305 DAC chip.
Pictures tomorrow.
Really interested in seeing the outcome of this!
BR /Mike
After 4 hours of trying various tricks I now have a working computer.
The Usb card was a bad idea. That did not work.
This Mac has 80 megs of memory. Thats a lot. So it runs pretty snappy.
It connected to internet automatically. I tried Internet Explorer 5.1.
Most net pages don't accept such an old browser.
The machine was useless, but then I found Audion 3 (http://www.panic.com/audion/).
This fantastic freeware runs on my old computer.
It has many, many features. I use it to play tracks from CDs and to stream net radios.
The old Mac streams aac 256 radio. Sounds good.
The semi-pro sound card is good. It is clean and neutral.
http://kuninga.com/korgcard.gif
Korg 1212 io drivers are available for MacOS 7-9, Windows 95,98,Me.
So no OSX and not even XP. Potentially Windows 98 / foobar2000 could work.
The card is a full size pci card. It needs a large box.
http://kuninga.com/mac.jpg
Testing with Eumig C-1000 pre-amp (a close relative of Luxman Reference Laboratory series), Quad 522, ESS AMT Monitor speakers.
Hi know several people using a raspberry+usb pen as their music server, so I'm guessing that you don't need a i7 to have full quality sound/audio streaming...
I don't think Rasperry PI is going to be good enough. It does not have pro quality audio hardware.
My tip is to look for semi-pro audio recording equipment. Firewire and Usb external recording systems are
easily available at pawnshops, music stores etc. No need to install any hardware.
My 200 MHz Mac sounds better than Squeezebox Touch that has a 533 MHz processor.
It is very difficult to find usable software for old machines. I was lucky with Audion 3. This 2002 software runs on 1996 computer.
Reid Malenfant
29-08-2012, 18:18
Ha ha ha, sucsess :) Nice one Juha, bit of a surprise to hear that it out performs a Squeezebox though :D
Can't complain at that :cool:
WOStantonCS100
29-08-2012, 21:25
What about the ambient noise level, the biggest problem with integrating a PC into a listening environment?
Nowadays, we have SSD's and "quiet technology"; but, in the past, PSU fans and noisy hard drives always meant the PC had to be in another room. I have rarely ever found a "stock" PC or laptop (one not specifically designed for audio) that was actually quiet enough to have in the listening area. Amazingly, it was a P4 based eMachines!!! :eek: If I hadn't found the Tascam, I might have gone that route. Macs are usually quieter than PC's, aren't they?
What about the ambient noise level, the biggest problem with integrating a PC into a listening environment?
Nowadays, we have SSD's and "quiet technology"; but, in the past, PSU fans and noisy hard drives always meant the PC had to be in another room. I have rarely ever found a "stock" PC or laptop (one not specifically designed for audio) that was actually quiet enough to have in the listening area. Amazingly, it was a P4 based eMachines!!! :eek: If I hadn't found the Tascam, I might have gone that route. Macs are usually quieter than PC's, aren't they?
?? Is which PC quieter than a Mac?
Macs are made by one single company, Apple.
Other PCs are made by hundreds of manufacturers - if you want a quiet one, then you buy a quiet one from a brand that makes a quiet one..
Maybe what you're thinking is that the Motorola G processors could run slower than Intel ones for the same performance and therefore cooler.
But tower Macs just used the same noisy PSUs as other brands and of course the same harddrives and they started to use case fans in an odd position from the Bondi Blue ones onwards, firing into the case side creating a lot of air noise .
Only iMacs were generally quiet and of course the Cube was fanless. Plenty of other PC manufacturers were also making quiet/silent PCs for particular markets too. I have a standard HP mini tower kicking around and I can't tell whether it's switched on or not it is so quiet - a standard home Pentium 2.
Go back though to before P2/G4s and the processors didn't need fans, only the PSUs were making the noise..
I think a beige G3 would be the most practical roll-back as there's lots of good software available for OS 8.6 / 9.
After 4 hours of trying various tricks I now have a working computer.
The Usb card was a bad idea. That did not work.
I did wonder... cards had to be Mac-specific to work. Would have been rare to find a Mac USB card without looking. They just don't seem to want to work at all if you try the wrong card..
On the Apple 8.6 Usb install packet the card is specified as industry standard Achi.
It supports keyboards, mice, audio and mass memory.
All my music is on FLAC files. I have not found any way to play FLAC on MacOs 8.6.
Streaming radio and CD's is enough to test. No need for Usb.
Regarding noise. Mac 4400 Performa is one of few Macs build on standard pc-components.
Unfortunately the power unit predates the Noise-Killer models. It runs full blast very noisy.
But this is all good retro fun. Korg 1212 card original price was 599 GBP.
The Mac was over 1000 GBP. So not cheap back in 1997.
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