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Spur07
02-02-2009, 11:14
just wondering,

has any AOS members had the chance to compare stan's new beresford to the 7510+ yet?

or is the great man himself prepared to give us his own unbiased opinion :smoking:

Gazjam
02-02-2009, 15:59
Waiting on these myself....

Stans already said they are different dacs for different markets....but I'd be most interested in DIRECT comparison of them both as Dacs only.

They ARE aimed at different markets though, so I should learn be be happy with what Ive got, but I'm always that little bit curious!

Spur07
02-02-2009, 18:04
yeah, me too - can't help but be curious. I've read stan's made a few improvements. I'd seriously consider a demo if there's quite an upgrade in performance.

popped down to richer sounds the other day and tried to bag a CA Dacmagic for home demo, but the manager was having none of it :confused:

he would only promise a credit note on return, and if you buy from their website you only get 7 days to return for a refund. Not that i'm considering replacing the beresford - just curious. i can't see the CA justifying the price difference. :eyebrows:

StanleyB
02-02-2009, 19:21
It would be unfair of me to do a review of the TC-7520. I shall however do a write up on the ideas and execution of those that have resulted in the TC-7520. But anyone thinking of spending money on a DAC should take into consideration that the TC-7510 scored very highly against some other DACs costing a lot more. The TC-7520 tramples all over the TC-7510, and by a very wide margin. Or your money back. I can't be fairer than that.

Stan

Spur07
02-02-2009, 19:32
"It would be unfair of me to do a review of the TC-7520.......the TC-7520 tramples all over the TC-7510, and by a very wide margin"

LOL. careless talk costs money, stan - the word 'trampled' has got me hooked. When will they be available on your website?

Spur07
02-02-2009, 19:40
Stan,

just realized - if the 7520 has USB, they'll be no need for my 'Trends' USB convertor between my Mac and my beresford. do you think they'll be much difference in performance in this respect - going straight from Mac to 7520?

JakeBlade
02-02-2009, 20:00
Annoyingly I recently relented and bought the new DacMagic - a combination of impatience, and annoyance that my Rotel cdp was beating my SB's dac every time.

Well, the upcoming 7520 is one of the reasons I joined AoS - so would really love to hear more from Stan about the ideas behind his latest baby...

Spur07
02-02-2009, 20:05
jake,

you don't happen to be living anywhere near the London, Surrey, berkshire area do you?

i'd be interested in setting up a Dacmagic v 7520/7510 face off

kalozois100
02-02-2009, 20:28
It would be unfair of me to do a review of the TC-7520. I shall however do a write up on the ideas and execution of those that have resulted in the TC-7520. But anyone thinking of spending money on a DAC should take into consideration that the TC-7510 scored very highly against some other DACs costing a lot more. The TC-7520 tramples all over the TC-7510, and by a very wide margin. Or your money back. I can't be fairer than that.

Stan

Which version of the tc-7510 is being trampled on? i ve read very good reviews about the tc-7510 6/4 compared to the 6/3. You make it sound like the difference is night and day between tc-7510 6/4 and the tc-7520. Yet the price difference is expected to only be 45 uk sterling? Well all I can say is that if the tc-7520 is that good lucky immenent buyers and bravo to you Stan for pulling it off at such a price;)

apmusson
02-02-2009, 20:51
I have had one of the tc-7520s since Saturday. I can't do a comparison to the tc-7510 as this is my first external DAC purchase. I can say however that I am very very happy with its sound quality - it is stunning. The headphone amp is the thing thats gobsmacked me though... If you're looking for an excellent DAC with USB input that can properly drive HD650's without external amplification (see my original post on the headphone amp part of the dac in "you like?" forum) you don't need to look any further.

I will be comparing the DAC with my colleagues £1000 DAC in the next few months. I will write up our thoughts after that. I won't pre-empt the results but I'm sure that the 7520 won't sound out of place in the comparison.....

Ade

StanleyB
02-02-2009, 22:02
Which version of the tc-7510 is being trampled on? i ve read very good reviews about the tc-7510 6/4 compared to the 6/3.

The 6/4 shares some of the improvements that are in the TC-7520. But compared to the 6/3 and before, there is no contest.

StanleyB
02-02-2009, 22:04
jake,

you don't happen to be living anywhere near the London, Surrey, berkshire area do you?

i'd be interested in setting up a Dacmagic v 7520/7510 face off
I am in North London and can loan a TC-7520 out to anyone trustworthy and impartial who wishes to do a face off against any other DAC at any price below £2K.oNly the Chord64 and the Zanden scare me...

Stan

fraser.
02-02-2009, 22:13
Hi Stan, the new improved dac sounds very tempting... will you be offering a service where 'old' models can be sent to you and brought up to spec rather than buying the new model? Do you have a rough idea of cost? cheers, Fraser

Gazjam
02-02-2009, 22:16
"I will be comparing the DAC with my colleagues £1000 DAC in the next few months. I will write up our thoughts after that. I won't pre-empt the results but I'm sure that the 7520 won't sound out of place in the comparison....."


Now THATS what I'm talking about! :)

Gazjam
02-02-2009, 22:17
Hi Stan, the new improved dac sounds very tempting... will you be offering a service where 'old' models can be sent to you and brought up to spec rather than buying the new model? Do you have a rough idea of cost? cheers, Fraser


Stan, can you give me £1000 please? :)

StanleyB
02-02-2009, 22:29
Hi Stan, the new improved dac sounds very tempting... will you be offering a service where 'old' models can be sent to you and brought up to spec rather than buying the new model?
I can bring older models up to MK6/4 spec to a certain extent. £25.
The TC-7520 is NOT a TC-7510 with USB. So the TC-7510 can never be brought up to the same spec at any cost.

Stan

fraser.
02-02-2009, 23:14
LOL gaz, i know i know...

Ok thanks for clearing that up, i'll start saving my pennies :)

Osku
03-02-2009, 00:12
I would like to read a thorough review (blind test) between the new DACmagic, TC-7510 MK6/4 and the new TC-7520 to be compared only as a pure DAC with a few (3->) different high grade systems in some well made acoustical environment. The hq HP amp is for my use only a bonus in the TC-7520, but that would not be heavily valued when making the decision (so little HP use these days here).

brainz2000
03-02-2009, 00:28
The TC-7520 is NOT a TC-7510 with USB.


Is there any chance of a 7510 with a USB - is there a DIY mod or a return to Stan option to get a USB fitted ?

I could happily sacrifice a co-ax for a USB to make my 7510 even better?

Or is this just not worth the money and I just need to keep saving ...

StanleyB
03-02-2009, 06:41
Is there any chance of a 7510 with a USB - is there a DIY mod or a return to Stan option to get a USB fitted ?
I am working on that:).

StanleyB
03-02-2009, 08:30
The hq HP amp is for my use only a bonus in the TC-7520, but that would not be heavily valued when making the decision (so little HP use these days here).
If I left that out, the DAC would be cheaper, and people would say that it can't be any good because it is cheaper. So it is best to put in a HP amp that is as good or better than some stand alone £200 HP amps. That way I can encourage HP amp buyers to buy my HP amp, and get a DAC and digital switching box thrown in for free ;).

Stan

Labarum
03-02-2009, 09:19
The economics and quality of headphone amps is the topic here

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug07/articles/qa0807_3.htm

It is as Stan says: ~£200 (or lot more) for a headphone amp or ~£200 for a headphone amp , DAC and digital pre-amp.

A no brainer?

trailer
03-02-2009, 09:20
It is when the DAC itself is a bargain at £200. Never mind the HA.

Martin J
03-02-2009, 10:32
I never really considered myself a headphone man but I have a 7520 on the way and my NAP250 is off to the Sound Org to be recapped later this week so I guess for a week or two I will be.

I have some Bose QC2s and QC3s which I bought for use on trains and planes and up in the loft I have some Beyer something or others which I haven't used for about 18 years. I wonder if they still work.

Martin J
03-02-2009, 10:38
Nearly forgot. I also have some Ultimate Ears Super.Fi earbuds which are surprisingly musical with an ipod. They take a lot less room in your bag than the QCs and they don't make you look such a knob on the train. The downside is if you try to have a beer and some crisps while wearing them you hear everything as they go down!

Osku
03-02-2009, 17:07
If I left that out, the DAC would be cheaper, and people would say that it can't be any good because it is cheaper. So it is best to put in a HP amp that is as good or better than some stand alone £200 HP amps. That way I can encourage HP amp buyers to buy my HP amp, and get a DAC and digital switching box thrown in for free ;).

Stan

I agree perfectly with the reasons why it is there, but as for a review I am not so interested comparing HP amp against not HP amp, so it is not apples to apples but would be more like apples to oranges. In real life I might be willing to pay extra for the HP amp, but that is not a necessity. And since I have a ES-series Sony amp in both places I might use HP it is not that important for me anyway. (I might change that opinion once I have tested TC-7520 with my MDR-SA5000 and compared with my STR-DA3300ES´s HP output).

Do I remember correctly that the TC-7520 has different chips (and now in a socket) than TC-7510? I could not find the thread that I remember reading earlier.

EDIT:
Stan: is the jitter correction you have stated to re-clock the data (already) in 7510 something that the competition does not have? Or is there difference in the behavior/quality of that correction? I am somewhat new to separate DACs and since have not seen that many statements of re-clocking capability elsewhere, am wondering if the competition is having something similar or laking it completely.

Perhaps the VALAB 2009 DAC might be also worth of testing against the TC-7520?

Filterlab
03-02-2009, 17:25
Fair enough, the headphone amplifier is a very important aspect of a DAC to me and therefore when I receive my 7520 I will be testing it against my existing DAC both via headphones and loudspeakers. :)

StanleyB
03-02-2009, 18:54
I agree perfectly with the reasons why it is there, but as for a review I am not so interested comparing HP amp against not HP amp, so it is not apples to apples but would be more like apples to oranges.
That's fair enough. Potential customers who wish to economize on the headphone may wish to consider the MF V-DAC or the CA DacMagic. If it is not a feature required then there is no need to purchase the TC-7520, not matter how much better it may or may not be than other DACs. At the end of the day perfect audio reproduction should not be THE deciding factor. Maybe the TC-7520 has too many input facilities, or an expensive USB socket that is not required.

STan

leo
03-02-2009, 19:20
Its hard pleasing everyone unfortunately Stan

I get the impression people are hoping for a cheaper version of the 7520 minus the Headphone amp and USB input but offer the same sound quality on the fixed analogue outputs.

The problem is once people see a post that states the anolgue output of the 7520 is miles better than the 7510 this tends to put people off the inferior but cheaper model IMHO, if the cheaper model cannot be modded or updated to be on par with the new model might also put people off

This is no stab towards you Stan, its just the impression I'm getting reading some posts on this forum, if I am totally wrong then just ignore my prattling on:lol:

Its a shame the dac didn't have internal sockets to allow the addition of say a USB input module and headphone amp module etc which can be added as a later upgrade if you know what I mean

leo
03-02-2009, 19:21
BTW, I personally would not touch the Dacmagic with a big stick! but thats just my opinion, I've never tried the V-dac so no idea regarding that

Filterlab
03-02-2009, 19:28
...Its a shame the dac didn't have internal sockets to allow the addition of say a USB input module and headphone amp module etc which can be added as a later upgrade if you know what I mean

I'm sure Stan will know exactly what you mean, as would a few electronics bods, but remember Leo that you are in a distinct minority of audiophiles and hi-fi enthusiasts. I would class myself as a complete digital head with a basic working knowledge of electronics, but I still wouldn't dream of opening a DAC to make alterations to the circuitry. I'd say that most customers of Stan's would be the type who want excellent quality from a box that has plenty of connectivity and works well. Four inputs is plenty for most folk, heck most DACs only have one or two, and those who want USB can choose the 7520, those who don't may opt for the 7510 - either was they're on to a winner. If the desire to get the best one is there then they will choose the 7520.

Gazjam
03-02-2009, 20:02
A burning question for a lot of us folks I guess, is the Dac itself of the 7520.

A lot of us would upgrade (id bet) from our Mk6/4 if it was SIGNIFICANTLY better - the "Giant Slayer" you speak of Stan.

I'd certainly upgrade if it was - I guess over time the comparisons and reviews will come out and people will form a bigger picture impression.

I TOTALLY get the different market sectors you are aiming for Stan, id be itchy to upgrade though if I knew there was a better Beresford out there - even if only for the Dac.


Heres me, watching and waiting :)

leo
03-02-2009, 20:02
Your probably right, I was thinking similar lines to the old Naim pre amps, remove four screws, slide out sleeve and slot in cards.

As mentioned though, its hard to please everyone:)

Reviews are certainly needed !

Filterlab
03-02-2009, 20:13
I will be submitting my review soon, just going to let the DAC get a week's worth of running in to loosen it up a touch. ;)

Labarum
03-02-2009, 20:16
A burning question for a lot of us folks I guess, is the Dac itself of the 7520.

A lot of us would upgrade (id bet) from our Mk6/4 if it was SIGNIFICANTLY better - the "Giant Slayer" you speak of Stan.



Let me quote Stan

"What I can say is that if you got an outstanding preamp or intend to drive a power amp directly from the DAC, then the new one would be the ideal candidate. If you need USB performance, or a headphone amp that can match an equivalent £200 headphone amp in its own right, then again the new unit would be up your street. But if none of the above applies to you, then the TC-7510 is more than adequate.
The biggest problem I found was that many preamps are inferior sounding as a preamp when compared to the new DAC. So running the DAC through a half decent preamp is not going to offer you much improvements. It is hard to explain properly, without physically trying out what I just described. It's one of those things that makes people say it is impossible, until you hear it for yourself."

From

http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1741c

Post #10

And there is another quote I am looking for.

trailer
03-02-2009, 20:20
I will be submitting my review soon, just going to let the DAC get a week's worth of running in to loosen it up a touch. ;)

I've had mine running for 4 days now and it's just improving as you'd expect it to. Compared to the 7510: more refinement & more detail. The big difference I have found is the extra clarity of vocals.

Gazjam
03-02-2009, 20:30
Let me quote Stan

"What I can say is that if you got an outstanding preamp or intend to drive a power amp directly from the DAC, then the new one would be the ideal candidate. If you need USB performance, or a headphone amp that can match an equivalent £200 headphone amp in its own right, then again the new unit would be up your street. But if none of the above applies to you, then the TC-7510 is more than adequate.
The biggest problem I found was that many preamps are inferior sounding as a preamp when compared to the new DAC. So running the DAC through a half decent preamp is not going to offer you much improvements. It is hard to explain properly, without physically trying out what I just described. It's one of those things that makes people say it is impossible, until you hear it for yourself."

From

http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1741c

Post #10

And there is another quote I am looking for.


Yeah Brian your right...

But for me, if theres a BETTER StanDac out there....I'd probably upgrade, even though I dont use Headphones.

The reviews will let me know to start saving the pennies or not :)

PS LOVING my 6/4. Listening to "Duffy-Stepping Stone" earlier and it was liquid. Emotion, passion, all the musical stuff was right there.
But if it can be bettered......wow.

I've a big thing about maximising the quality of my sueezebox setup: linear PSU's, Stans Latest Dac with Maplins PSU, Belden HDTV Spec DigiCoax...that kind of thing. All things that have inproved sound quality.
Im happy with my current setup - but can it be bettered?

Labarum
03-02-2009, 20:46
if theres a BETTER StanDac out there....I'd probably upgrade, even though I dont use Headphones.


The other quote I had in my mind, and cannot now find was to the effect that apart from the improved headphone circuit, the improvement in general musical competence was incremental, now Stan seems to be saying more than that. Yet if the headphone amp is upgraded we must suppose the analogue section behind it has been, and that better volume pot has been used.

When I move to Cyprus I will probably need a second DAC to service a second listening station. The Squeezebox's DAC just doesn't do it for me. At that point I can justify the £200.

At the moment I have one Squeezebox in the lounge driving the Quad 405-2 without a preamp in the middle, but relying on the variable output of the Standac 6/4

If I drive the Quad power amp from the fixed output of the Standac and use the Digital Volume Control in the Squeezebox with 10 or 20% attenuation I think it is clearer, but by a very small margin. I may be right up against the resolving qualities of the Quad 405 (rebuilt) and the Quart speakers linked in my Signature.

It doesn't stop me enjoying the music!

But like you I wait for other opinions.

Filterlab
03-02-2009, 21:01
I've had mine running for 4 days now and it's just improving as you'd expect it to. Compared to the 7510: more refinement & more detail. The big difference I have found is the extra clarity of vocals.

I've never heard any of the previous Beresford DACs so I have no point of reference from that point of view, I will be comparing it to my Apogee (which is a very established DAC that's often rated better than the Benchmark DAC 1) and also to my memories of my MF Tri-Vista DAC 21.

Spur07
03-02-2009, 21:41
"A lot of us would upgrade (id bet) from our Mk6/4 if it was SIGNIFICANTLY better"

Yeah, that was my thinking behind starting this post - plus the fact that I currently use a USB convertor between my computer and the MK 6/4, (which incidentally cost as much as the MK 6/4). The 7520 would enable me to do away with the convertor, but initially I'd be interested in comparing the performance between the two - a USB face off, as it were.

I might contact stan regarding a loan.

leo
03-02-2009, 22:10
Its a shame there wasn't a Beta unit to be passed around say the 200+ post members, after a week you post it recorded onto the next person in line, everybody who tried it does a small write up

trailer
03-02-2009, 22:17
I'm finding it hard to fathom the change in tempo here.
A couple of weeks ago everyone was "gung ho" for the latest StanDAC. Now it's out(ish) there's a real sense of "maybe if"?

Filterlab
03-02-2009, 22:58
I'm finding it hard to fathom the change in tempo here.
A couple of weeks ago everyone was "gung ho" for the latest StanDAC. Now it's out(ish) there's a real sense of "maybe if"?

I hadn't sensed that myself to be honest, I think the 'if' questions simply encompass the specifications rather than the ability. The proof of the pudding in any hi-fi component is in the listening of course.

Gazjam
03-02-2009, 23:27
No, I hadn't picked up on that either...

The 7520 was never an option for me till now(ish) as I started hearing it was better as a Dac than the 7510 I'm currently using.

If it is significantly better, I'll be upgrading.

I can say the 7510 Mk6/4 I'm currently using is an amazing piece of kit, which along with my squeezebox is the best hifi purchase I have made in 20 odd years of this hobby. It is SO much better than my Cambridge 640V2 CD player (which hasn't even been PLUGGED IN for Months) its not funny.

Its a double edged sword for Stan, make a better product FOR NOT MUCH MORE MONEY and the original may fall out of favour a bit.

Still, its better to have a choice at two different price points - different markets for different pockets - not a bad thing in my book. :)

Stratmangler
03-02-2009, 23:27
Its a shame there wasn't a Beta unit to be passed around say the 200+ post members, after a week you post it recorded onto the next person in line, everybody who tried it does a small write up

A tad impractical methinks - approx 4 years Beta testing = Stan going bust and all efforts getting the unit to market become an expensive waste of time.

That said, I'd love to hear what a 7520 DAC brings to the party.

Chris:)

StanleyB
04-02-2009, 06:53
Indeed impractical. But I am doing at least my best to be different than the other manufacturers. One of them is that all my beta testers are getting the chance of a free upgrade to the new power supply when it comes out, as long as they pay P&P and return the old one:).

I can understand that some may not quite appreciate the 50% price difference between the TC-7510 and TC-7520. But if you break it down, the TC-7520 too cheap in real terms.
1. £20 gives you a USB input that has a very low jitter, its own re-clocking circuit, and is the best sounding USB input on a DAC I have heard. I haven't had a chance to heard the DAC1 USB, so I can't comment on that one.
2. For an extra £10 you also get a headphone amp that will soon set the benchmark in terms of headphone amp output on any DAC. It is a cut down version of a headamp I hope to sell later this year at under £100. Right now that £20 HPA can hold its own against HPAs costing 10X or more.
3. £10 gives you a far more advanced output stage with opamps that can be replaced to taste if need be.
4. And for the remaining £10 in price difference you'll get a dedicated power supply that is not a wallwart.
So all in all, I have only added extra features that can compete with anything equivalent on any other DAC at a far higher price point. And I would challenge any other DAC manufacturer to add equivalent circuits at those low prices, let alone circuits that are oustanding in nature.

They say that the cost of diminishing returns were clearly demonstrated to be true when I introduced the TC-7510. Well, the TC-7520 was designed with the objective in mind that performance of each part could hold its own in terms of diminishing returns, and then add them all together in one box. That's the only way I could make sure I didn't break the rule of diminishing return:eyebrows:.

The TC-7520 is high-end in performance, not high-end in price.

Stan

Labarum
04-02-2009, 12:35
Thanks for the clarification, Stan.

The analogue output stage can affect the sound considerably, so great to have that upgraded in the 7520.

Is the basic core DAC the same in both the 7510 and 7520? Have any better quality components been used in the core DAC of the 7520?

Of course this is all just a matter of detail - how it sounds is what counts.

Martin J
04-02-2009, 19:22
My first impression of the 7520 after about an hours use compared to my fully run-in 7510 Mk6/4 is:
- resolves the bass better but doesn't (yet?) sound as full as my 7510
- more life-like vocals
- overall sounds more accomplished (but I am struggling to find the words to explain why)
- seems to really like AC/DC, whenever they came up on shuffle there was a serious boogie factor apparent!

I still notice that some recordings sound a lot better than others. My CDS2 seems to be able to drag a good sound from almost everything. But thats a £6k device.

One minor criticism: the blue leds are very bright. I'd quite like to turn them down.

Looking forward to more listening.

Cheers,
Martin

Filterlab
04-02-2009, 19:51
...One minor criticism: the blue leds are very bright. I'd quite like to turn them down....

Well, if that's your only criticism then the DAC is boding well. I have to agree with your thoughts so far.

Filterlab
04-02-2009, 19:51
I like the blue LEDs. :)

JakeBlade
04-02-2009, 20:02
Martin - would be interested to hear how well-mastered music plays between the 7510 and 20 when you're properly run-in. Anything from the BBC stable tends to be very well mastered (most tracks from the Live Lounge discs for example).

Out of interest, how long should the 7520 take to run-in? I'm itching to compare against the CA DM (and maybe a Supernait if I can rope a friend in), but haven't got much time on my hands at the minute.

JakeBlade

Martin J
04-02-2009, 20:03
Well, if that's your only criticism then the DAC is boding well.

Yeah, its not bad going is it!

My earlier listening was at about 6pm and I always find between 5 and 7pm to be about the worst time to listen to music. My theory is its a combination of crappy mains and not being relaxed.

Just had another quick blast and I think it was already sounding fuller. I also think it has more pace than the 7510 judging from Jackson Browne's Everywhere I Go which is my favourite test track.

Got to give it a rest for a bit now. SWMBO wants to watch Waterloo Road.

Cheers,
Martin

Filterlab
04-02-2009, 20:08
...SWMBO wants to watch Waterloo Road...

Must be a girl thing, same here. However I'm buried deep in my Sennheisers lapping up the liquid audio. ;)

StanleyB
04-02-2009, 20:13
However I'm buried deep in my Sennheisers lapping up the liquid audio. ;)
Which ones have you got? Just as a reference for anyone who might have the same cans.

Stan

Filterlab
04-02-2009, 20:14
HD600s with Cardas Rewire.

Volume is around two o'clock and is more than ample.

StanleyB
04-02-2009, 20:52
The headamp on the DAC is addictive. I would love to try it with a HD800, but I can't justify the price of those. The K701 also works very well with the DAC. It won't surprise me if many people pair the TC-7520 with the K701. I can see a lot of TC-7520 owners adding their current headamp to their ebay listing.

STan

leo
04-02-2009, 22:15
I have HD250 II, HD 650 and K701
You did a good job if it drives the K701's well Stan, these cans cause lots of headphone amps problems

Spectral Morn
04-02-2009, 22:46
Hi Guys

Not wanting to blow my own trumpet, but as part of an overview of digital kit from the last 20 years or so I did a review of Stans TC7510 DAC, as part of that review. I guess it was missed as it was part of a much bigger item in the Strokes of Genius section. Heres the link (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1919)

You guys may find it interesting and I compare it to the Musical Fidelity TRI-VISTA 21, so Filterlab may be interested in this aspect of the review. Sorry its long but believe it or not this is the edited version.

I will be doing a follow up in a few weeks with the Maplins power supply and with a bit more run in as well. A comparison of the new TC 7520 would be nice at some point...Covenant would like me to do this.

Regards D S D L----Neil :)

Martin J
04-02-2009, 22:54
I've just packed up my power amp as its off to be recapped tomorrow. I will probably be without it for a couple of weeks. So now I am a 7520 headphone listener...

My headphones are Beyer DT990s. I think I bought them in about 1990. They have been in their box in the loft for the last 10 years. I have just got them down. I was worried that the cloth ear pads would have perished but they look as good as new.

A very tolerant wife and two little girls who sleep like logs has meant I haven't thought to use headphones at home. Its nice using them without being on a train. I could get to like it.

The sound is absolutely fabulous. It looks like the 7520 is going to be another winner for Stan! Well done sir.

Ali Tait
05-02-2009, 10:59
Just use a little blue paint to cover them.That'll tame the brightness.

jandl100
05-02-2009, 12:17
Just use a little blue paint to cover them.That'll tame the brightness.

... or little strips of black insulating tape - you won't see them from more than a foot or so away - and you can dim those pesky lights to your exact preference by varying the amount that each light is covered. Must admit that I do this on most of my kit as LEDs are generally too bright - it's also easily removable!

Filterlab
05-02-2009, 12:35
You guys may find it interesting and I compare it to the Musical Fidelity TRI-VISTA 21, so Filterlab may be interested in this aspect of the review. Sorry its long but believe it or not this is the edited version.

I'll have a read of that later Neil, many thanks. :)


I will be doing a follow up in a few weeks with the Maplins power supply and with a bit more run in as well. A comparison of the new TC 7520 would be nice at some point...Covenant would like me to do this.

Now that would be interesting, the Maplin power supply is generally regarded to be one of the best of its kind for the price point and above.


... or little strips of black insulating tape - you won't see them from more than a foot or so away - and you can dim those pesky lights to your exact preference by varying the amount that each light is covered. Must admit that I do this on most of my kit as LEDs are generally too bright - it's also easily removable!

Also one could use red translucent modelling paint, they'd glow a cool purple then, how many folk can claim they have hi-fi with purple LEDs?! :)

theone999
09-02-2009, 02:58
Just to say, I also love the blue LEDs mainly because the LEDs on my PC monitor and speakers are all blue as well

Timbo
09-02-2009, 03:02
Damn blue LED's! I suppose they'll match my T-Amp and my vision is usually so blurred it will not matter....:cool:

apmusson
09-02-2009, 18:03
Ok. I have had the 7520 for just over a week now and have been listening to it every day (and into the night too). It has impressed me very much. I have tried listening to many different kinds of music on the 7520 and it has coped admirably with everything I have thrown at it. In my earlier post I mentioned that I would be doing a comparison with a colleagues £1000 DAC in the near future to compare the audio performance. This is still the case. I spoke to my colleague today and he confirmed that his DAC is a Stello (approx 1 year old). I'll get specifics soon and will give you our impressions soon after the comparison.

I have been comparing the headphone output of the DAC with my Graham Slee Solo SRG (inc PSU1) on a regular basis. This has been very interesting. The Slee is a very well respected headphone amplifier. It has a richness to its sound that is very appealing. The 7520 headphone output is detailed. I can hear things in the music that I haven't heard before. Each time I swap between the Slee and the 7520 headphone amplifier I feel torn between the warmth and richness of the Slee and the amazing detail of the 7520.

If I didn't already own a headphone amplifier, I would be very happy with the 7520 as a DAC and headphone amplifier. As it is I am tempted to sell my Slee and just use the 7520 - it's that good.

Ade

apmusson
09-02-2009, 18:04
BTW. Headfi has a thread on the 7520 where someone compares the 7520 headphone output to a Lehmann headamp. He reaches a similar conclusion.

theone999
09-02-2009, 18:14
I have now received a 1/4 to 3.5mm adaptor and as such have started using the headphone amp.

Currently I use a pair of ACS T2 custom IEMs paired with a Cowon A3 PMP.

I can say that the headphone out on 7520 is better than the HP out on my Cowon A3. The improvements to me are deeper and better textured bass, wider and deeper soundstage, smooth clear vocals and a sound that is pleasant overall.

A general disclaimer about HP amps is that any improvements to the sound will be subtle, and as such do not expect to hear anything drasticly different at first; however the difference will be there and obvious should you downgrade in the future.

The fact that 7520 provides the extra quality which my T2s is able to translate into extra performance should be applauded. Especially given the very high performance of the T2s already. It's also good that the HP out seems balanced as it is. Thus perhaps saving the trouble of opamp rolling as I had a Xin portable amp several years ago where I had a choice of lots of different combos of the opamps I had. Some users would not appreciate the hassle of opamp rolling, so a good stock sound is a plus.

Timbo
09-02-2009, 23:40
Right, I got my 7520 from Stan this morning.
Nice little unit, it is my first DAC apart from the internals of a Sony QS MD player. I have tried it today with a Sony ES CD player as transport, a Toshiba Sd-510E DVD player and my PC through the USB input.

It's only had about 6 hours use so it is early days but I have found it reveals a lot more detail on DVD's and PC radio. The bass is much improved, but I am finding the top end a little strident.

The headphone amp is a cracking feature, I'm listening to John Martyn right now and it's magic.

People have said that it does improve with use and I do hope so as the top end is so manic right now. Will report back.:)

Tim

StanleyB
10-02-2009, 06:25
It's only had about 6 hours use so it is early days but I have found it reveals a lot more detail on DVD's and PC radio. The bass is much improved, but I am finding the top end a little strident.
[ ]

People have said that it does improve with use and I do hope so as the top end is so manic right now. Will report back.:)

Tim
I am not quite sure what you mean Tim. Anyhow, if it is not a suitable match for your system, just send it back at the end of the week for a refund. I have customers waiting for one to try out on their system.

Stan

jandl100
10-02-2009, 07:53
All of the Beresford DACs need at least a day's run-in to make them start sounding decent, ime. The improvements continue for a week or more, but for those first few hours you feel like sending it back - that would be a seriously bad move, imho! :)

StanleyB
10-02-2009, 09:36
You know the score Jerry:). But without mentioning anyone by name, I received the following comment about the TC-7520.
' I have to say that the initial sounds after 1 hour was very good with excellent vocals but not matching my CDX2 with XPS2 power supply or Linn LP12, but I would imagine it is early days. I'

What can I possibly offer in defence against that:scratch:?

STan

Labarum
10-02-2009, 11:48
Over 20 years ago I bought my first CD player - a Phillips CD204. I took it round to a friend who had an LP12. We agrees his best pressings (mostly 60s LPs) matched the CD sound.

This man was a retired BBC engineer and knew his stuff. From that day on I have never understood the analogue brigade.

Digital stuff has constantly got better.

Nothing to defend , Stan.

leo
10-02-2009, 12:17
You know the score Jerry:). But without mentioning anyone by name, I received the following comment about the TC-7520.
' I have to say that the initial sounds after 1 hour was very good with excellent vocals but not matching my CDX2 with XPS2 power supply or Linn LP12, but I would imagine it is early days. I'

What can I possibly offer in defence against that:scratch:?

STan

Theres a lot of digital sources out there with a huge variation in signatures, its impossible to design something that will please everybody regardless of price, what sounds great to one person may not suit another.

You've had far more positive opinions than negatives so I wouldn't worry about it;)
BTW having a comment where a £200 unit doesn't quite match a unit costing considerably more isn't something you should feel needs deffending IMHO

kalozois100
10-02-2009, 12:31
You know the score Jerry:). But without mentioning anyone by name, I received the following comment about the TC-7520.
' I have to say that the initial sounds after 1 hour was very good with excellent vocals but not matching my CDX2 with XPS2 power supply or Linn LP12, but I would imagine it is early days. I'

What can I possibly offer in defence against that:scratch:?

STan

Its not a fair comparison for it to be so it should be Tc-7510 against the TC-7520 or any other dac close within the price range. When I bought the LP12 I missed out on a holiday abroad that year unlike last year when I bought the Tc-7510.;)

Labarum
10-02-2009, 12:42
When I bought the LP12 I missed out on a holiday abroad that year unlike last year when I bought the Tc-7510.;)

That's it. It is now possible to achieve very high standards of reproduction at much lower cost that previously. It's about time the HiFi industry woke up to that fact. They chase an ever decreasing and ever more esoteric market.

By sensible purchase from the computer and music industries, and from a few folk like Stan, it is possible to approach studio quality without a second mortgage.

StanleyB
10-02-2009, 12:43
When I bought the LP12 I missed out on a holiday abroad that year unlike last year when I bought the Tc-7510.;)
I can see another TC-7520 order coming up:eyebrows:.

Sold out till week after next by the way:).

Stan

tfarney
10-02-2009, 13:31
That's it. It is now possible to achieve very high standards of reproduction at much lower cost that previously. It's about time the HiFi industry woke up to that fact. They chase an ever decreasing and ever more esoteric market.

By sensible purchase from the computer and music industries, and from a few folk like Stan, it is possible to approach studio quality without a second mortgage.

Yes. It is.

Tim

Timbo
10-02-2009, 13:36
I am not quite sure what you mean Tim. Anyhow, if it is not a suitable match for your system, just send it back at the end of the week for a refund. I have customers waiting for one to try out on their system.

Stan

Hi Stan,

It is sorted, I swapped the amp that the DAC was outputting to (a Chinese T-Amp) for an old Musical Fidelity job and left it playing internet Radio all morning whilst I went to work.

I don't know if it was the T-amp or "burn in" but it sounds bleeding amazing now! The stridency of the treble I was hearing last night has gone to be replaced by an amazingly detailed sound no matter what is outputted to it!

Thanks very much Stan, safe to say I won't be sending it back:trust:

Tim

Labarum
10-02-2009, 13:41
Yes. It is.

Tim

The difficult area remains domestically acceptable loudspeakers.

kalozois100
10-02-2009, 19:23
That's it. It is now possible to achieve very high standards of reproduction at much lower cost that previously. It's about time the HiFi industry woke up to that fact. They chase an ever decreasing and ever more esoteric market.

By sensible purchase from the computer and music industries, and from a few folk like Stan, it is possible to approach studio quality without a second mortgage.

Ela re ( its greek equivalent to hi-er mate and i love to use it)
I'm obviously not up to date on new advances. I like the idea of foobar with xp but never tried it. My pc only has usb out but I prefer optical out which my acer has not.( there's a s video out which I don't use) Has anyone upgraded their laptop to optical out and how do you go about it? A new mac is definately out the question!:scratch:

Labarum
10-02-2009, 20:08
Kalozois

This USB box will give you give to an optical out for connection to a 7510 - it is a DAC as well and will probably be as good as the output from a Mac - line out and headphone out.

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/shop/flypage/product_id/8522

You must use the ASIO or WASAPI (for Vista) drivers to tame Windows.

---

I use a Squeezebox - it too bypasses the Windows sampling rate issues.

I have my FLAC files on the study PC and stream to the Squeezebox, which feeds the Standac - that beats the Squeezebox internal DAC by a big margin.

The Squeezbox is also good for Internet Radio.

See

http://forums.slimdevices.com/

https://www.ripcaster.co.uk/

http://www.cooltopia.com/product.php/6/30 << Cheapest UK price £130

The Cyprus Logitech agents are in Strovolos, but their website does not show the Squeezebox

http://logitechcyprus.com/

tfarney
11-02-2009, 18:14
The difficult area remains domestically acceptable loudspeakers.

This is, of course, dependent upon the working definition of "domestically acceptable," :), but speakers have always been, and will always be the most difficult area and the one that makes the most difference.

Tim

Labarum
11-02-2009, 18:27
This is, of course, dependent upon the working definition of "domestically acceptable," :), but speakers have always been, and will always be the most difficult area and the one that makes the most difference.


Agreed.

Music industry monitors will integrate into many modern interiors, subject to the whole household's agreement! They will not sit well in the traditional English cottage, or the 18th century drawing room!

kalozois100
11-02-2009, 18:28
This is, of course, dependent upon the working definition of "domestically acceptable," :), but speakers have always been, and will always be the most difficult area and the one that makes the most difference.

Tim

That's a turn around for me! I was led to believe many years ago the source of the audio was most critical and makes the most difference because it tends to be the most expensive part of the sound system and therefore harder to achieve - and that the speakers were the least of the factors in the sound system. Pehaps I 've got it all wrong?:scratch:

Labarum
11-02-2009, 18:44
That's a turn around for me! I was led to believe many years ago the source of the audio was most critical and makes the most difference because it tends to be the most expensive part of the sound system and therefore harder to achieve - and that the speakers were the least of the factors in the sound system. Pehaps I 've got it all wrong?:scratch:

That was the current view when the Linn Sondek swept onto the scene. Rubbish in, rubbish out was the theory. Since then digital sources and amplification have improved very considerably.

I was never totally sold on the cash at the front idea - it is expensive to move air, and that's what loudspeakers do. Or look at it another way - the transducer is where the expensive mechanical engineering is needed. In the analogue chain you have four - microphone, cutting lathe, turmtable/arm/cartridge and loudspeaker. (Six if you count tape transport with record and replay heads.)

In the digital chain you have two - microphone and loudspeaker. Put you cash into the only mechanical transducer in the replay chain - the loudspeaker. The rest is dirt cheap (cheap as chips) - or ought to be.

kbuech
11-02-2009, 19:25
That was the current view when the Linn Sondek swept onto the scene. Rubbish in, rubbish out was the theory. Since then digital sources and amplification have improved very considerably.

I was never totally sold on the cash at the front idea - it is expensive to move air, and that's what loudspeakers do. Or look at it another way - the transducer is where the expensive mechanical engineering is needed. In the analogue chain you have four - microphone, cutting lathe, turmtable/arm/cartridge and loudspeaker. (Six if you count tape transport with record and replay heads.)

In the digital chain you have two - microphone and loudspeaker. Put you cash into the only mechanical transducer in the replay chain - the loudspeaker. The rest is dirt cheap (cheap as chips) - or ought to be.

Ah yes, Brian, but only if the digital to analog conversion is done correctly. Then, with the musical signal in microvolts, one needs to amplify it dramatically without losing musical information, and drive the transducers in the speakers that are moving the air without losing control of them as impedience swings dramatically.

I have recently heard dirt cheap speakers sound terrific when used with great source, DAC, and ampilication equipment. Example- my iMac ALAC music files to AirTunes, to Apple Airport Express, toslink optical to Linn AV 5103 (onboard Numerik DAC), to AVI V2 amplifier, to Sony $159 tower speakers.

I think every step of the signal chain is equally important.

Kurt

kbuech
11-02-2009, 19:47
Hello mates,

BTW: my office system will get 7520 that Stan ships to me Monday. It is...

Apple MacBook Core 2 Duo USB or toslink optical ALAC music files, Pandora or higher bitrate Internet radio, to Stan 7520 to Audio Refinement Complete integrated amp to bi-wired Linn Kan II speakers.

I'm using the Zero DAC via toslink now.

Any predictions on whether usb or optical into the 7520 will sound better in my system?

Cheers,

Kurt

kalozois100
11-02-2009, 19:53
Hi Brian,
Interesting comments. I have a friend at work and he said that if he wants to listen to music he puts on a record but if he wants to listen to noise he puts on the cd. Well, I have to admit that before I got Stan's dac I had the same predijicial point of view . Yet he buys cds' which what I have done over the years. Had to really since alot of material was only released on cd.now i feel I have the chance to listen to them properly. Anyway I'm gonna let the tc-7510 settle down after the mods and invite him around for a listen. I'm sure I'll make a believer out him in the end.
In the mod 21 for the 6/3 I put some cheap capacitors in but have since ordered black gates pk series from abroad and hope to get even better audio from the Tc-7510 when they are fitted. :)

Labarum
11-02-2009, 19:55
Ah yes, Brian, but only if the digital to analog conversion is done correctly . . .

Always a question of balance. It ought to be possible to take for granted that the electronics would be competently executed. All components (resistors, capacitors and semiconductors) are manufactured to a reasonably high standard these days, and the premium components are not that much more. There is no excuse for expensive electronics, still less for bad design.

Yes, I too have heard remarkable sounds from plastic speakers gripped by good amplification, but the law of diminishing returns necessarily cuts in higher with mechanical transducers.

tfarney
12-02-2009, 02:05
That's a turn around for me! I was led to believe many years ago the source of the audio was most critical and makes the most difference because it tends to be the most expensive part of the sound system and therefore harder to achieve - and that the speakers were the least of the factors in the sound system. Pehaps I 've got it all wrong?:scratch:

As philosophy, garbage in/garbage out sounds great. I just don't think it works that way in practice. To my ears, at least, the differences between DACs, even in radically different price ranges, are subtle nuances compared to the obvious differences between speakers, often even speakers of very similar design.

Tim

Labarum
12-02-2009, 07:36
As philosophy, garbage in/garbage out sounds great.

Of course it is true that detail once lost cannot be recovered, but . . .

NRG
12-02-2009, 13:49
As philosophy, garbage in/garbage out sounds great. I just don't think it works that way in practice. To my ears, at least, the differences between DACs, even in radically different price ranges, are subtle nuances compared to the obvious differences between speakers, often even speakers of very similar design.

Tim

Indeed, the purveyor of this philosophy was trying to sell a turntable at the time. ;)

I don't agree about DAC's, my tweaking of the 7510 has proven to me there is a lot of scope for changing the sound presentation and quality...and not in a small way either, the differences are very noticeable.

tfarney
12-02-2009, 14:14
Indeed, the purveyor of this philosophy was trying to sell a turntable at the time. ;)

I don't agree about DAC's, my tweaking of the 7510 has proven to me there is a lot of scope for changing the sound presentation and quality...and not in a small way either, the differences are very noticeable.

And I don't doubt your experience. It's all relative I suppose. You get a very noticeable difference from a DAC tweak. But a change from horns to ribbons? From floor standers to mini monitors? From passive to active? A dramatic transformation.

Tim

Labarum
12-02-2009, 14:31
Indeed, the purveyor of this philosophy was trying to sell a turntable at the time. ;)

So he was, but it wasn't all sales hype. The LP12 did represent a leap forward with technology. The idea was to get as clean an output from the vinyl as possible, pass through a transparent amp onto a small speaker that traded mid range clarity and low colouration against bass extension . CD came along and clarity could be had by all without the precision engineering overheads. The trouble with CD players was the amps they drove. They couldn't handle the dynamics; and, to be fair, the digital mush that early post digital filters didn't catch. It was a similar problemto putting a Ford Anglia onto the newly opened M1. (For those outside the UK when the first six lane highway was opened ordinary production cars blew up because they could not handle the sustained speed of 70mph!)

I did some listening to the LP12 at the time - there was a turntable and arm that had an oil dash pot that extended in an arc across the LP - a paddle on the end of the cartridge dipped into this dashpot - at audio frequencies the arm was effective locked solid at both ends resulting, I thought, in a sound with much snappier transients and firmer bass.

All of this precision engineering was expensive - chips are not. Stan gives us the chips in a case that is domestically acceptable but not expensively engineered. Great! *AVI has worked out that if they can hide the chips in the wooden boxes needed for the speeakers thay can sve themselves and the customer some money. I guess, though, they have kept the greater part of the savings for themselves.

* http://www.avihifi.co.uk/

kbuech
12-02-2009, 15:40
And I don't doubt your experience. It's all relative I suppose. You get a very noticeable difference from a DAC tweak. But a change from horns to ribbons? From floor standers to mini monitors? From passive to active? A dramatic transformation.

Tim

A transformation in rhythm, pace, emotional connection with the listener, musicality? Not in my experience. Those have been determined way earlier in the chain, I think at the source. Linn had it right with the LP12, I could easily demonstrate a marked improvement in Hi-Fi when I sold these in the 1980s. And Stan Beresford and others can demo this vast improvement with their "front-ends", DACs. IMHO of course.

Labarum
13-02-2009, 00:23
Stan,

Just seen your webpage on the 7520. Three comments.

1. I am not sure too many people will know what "SB3" is. Perhaps it should be expanded to "Squeezebox Classic or Duet".

2. Some of your headings are in blue and underlined. This suggests they are clickable, and they are not.

3. These words are unclear to me:

"Separate Left and Right audio ICs are behind the audio capabilities of the TC-7520 headphone amplifier. This is only used for the headphone amplifier output. Audio to the external headphone and line outputs is not processed this way, only level control is adjustable in the digital domain for these ports."

"This"? What? The separate left and right ICs?
"Audio to the external headphone and line outputs is not processed this way . . . " Which way? Not through the separate R and L ICs, is what the English seems to mean, but it can't be what you mean. Is the volume control for variable line out and the HP amp digital?

---

Glad you're keeping busy and sold out!

leo
13-02-2009, 00:48
Some dac chips allow the gain to be controlled digitally within the dac chip, IC's usually mean integrated circuits like op-amps so maybe the actual gain/vol is adjusted using the dac chip and the IC's are used as drivers for the headphone out

Its sort of hard to explain:)

ReachtheSky
13-02-2009, 02:13
Stan's updated webpage on the 7520 does look interesting.

Regarding USB dac's, is it standard for USB input to only support up to 32, 44.1, and 48khz sample rates and for max word lengh of 16bit? How does that compare sonically with 96/24 input from SPIF? Maybe Stan's separate USB reclocking compensates for all that?

The description of the headphone amp output and the variable line out (preamp out) confused me. Are they effectively one and the same as initial reports suggest both to be very good?

Looking good Stan.

tfarney
13-02-2009, 03:46
A transformation in rhythm, pace, emotional connection with the listener, musicality? Not in my experience. Those have been determined way earlier in the chain, I think at the source. Linn had it right with the LP12, I could easily demonstrate a marked improvement in Hi-Fi when I sold these in the 1980s. And Stan Beresford and others can demo this vast improvement with their "front-ends", DACs. IMHO of course.

MHO differs, I suppose. I don't particularly believe in PRaT, or the musicality of kit. Transformations in rhythm, pace and emotional connection with the listener are, in my view, the territory of musicians, not chips and valves, so I look for electronics that are as transparent as possible, and transducers that please my ears.

YMMV.

Tim

StanleyB
13-02-2009, 07:55
Stan's updated webpage on the 7520 does look interesting.

Regarding USB dac's, is it standard for USB input to only support up to 32, 44.1, and 48khz sample rates and for max word lengh of 16bit? How does that compare sonically with 96/24 input from SPIF? Maybe Stan's separate USB reclocking compensates for all that?

The chip I use only supports 16bit. If you play back a CD via your PC the output from USB or SPDIF to the DAC would both be in 16bit/44.1kHz.



The description of the headphone amp output and the variable line out (preamp out) confused me. Are they effectively one and the same as initial reports suggest both to be very good?

The headphone amp and line output are two different circuits. Just like in a preamp or integrated amp, when you plug in or unplug the headphone, you switch between output circuit or headphone circuit.

StanleyB
13-02-2009, 08:02
MHO differs, I suppose. I don't particularly believe in PRaT, or the musicality of kit. Transformations in rhythm, pace and emotional connection with the listener are, in my view, the territory of musicians, not chips and valves,

I am afraid that you are wrong, but as I am not aware of what other engineers do in the design of their circuits in order to get better PRaT, I can't divulge how I do it in mine. It does require some extra effort to get an acceptable level of PRaT.
You are always welcome to visit me and listen to the reproduction of two test rigs that I have set up. They look identical, but within 1 minute listening to each of them, you can clearly pick up the difference in PRaT from them.

Marco
13-02-2009, 08:10
Hi Tim,


MHO differs, I suppose. I don't particularly believe in PRaT, or the musicality of kit. Transformations in rhythm, pace and emotional connection with the listener are, in my view, the territory of musicians, not chips and valves, so I look for electronics that are as transparent as possible, and transducers that please my ears.


The simple fact is that no information lost at source can ever be retrieved further down the chain by transducers or anything else, so I would contend with kbuech's view - and of course the fact that DACs sound different (not to mention T/Ts) proves that there's something valuable to be lost.

However, I'm not saying that a staunchly "source first" approach is the most logical either as the thinking is a bit too simplistic. As ever in audio, it's the absolutist approaches of any type that usually get it wrong. 'Right' is usually found somewhere in the middle.

Brian,

I think you'll find that the LP12 was a flawed design from the beginning. Ivor admitted that if he could go back he would have designed a turntable with a direct-drive mechanism as it is more accurate. The Townshend Rock with fluid damping trough you refer to though is a superb example of turntable design and was years ahead of its time. I use a similar, although rather less elaborate system, on my T/T.

Labarum
13-02-2009, 08:18
The Townshend Rock with fluid damping trough . . . is a superb example of turntable design and was years ahead of its time.

I am glad my ears did not deceive me. I was not taking that much interest, as my affections had already transferred to CD. At the time I remember thinking that rigidity must the the answer to turntable/arm design - they must be as solid as the cutting lathe, or data will be lost.

Marco
13-02-2009, 08:24
Nope, you've obviously got good ears! :)

The principles you describe are fundamental to accurate vinyl replay.

Anyway, I just popped in briefly to make a few points. This is the digital section of the forum so I won't intrude any further with my analogue-orientated ramblings.

Carry on, chaps.

Marco.

tfarney
13-02-2009, 11:51
I am afraid that you are wrong, but as I am not aware of what other engineers do in the design of their circuits in order to get better PRaT, I can't divulge how I do it in mine. It does require some extra effort to get an acceptable level of PRaT.
You are always welcome to visit me and listen to the reproduction of two test rigs that I have set up. They look identical, but within 1 minute listening to each of them, you can clearly pick up the difference in PRaT from them.

Stan, I suspect this is a matter of semantics more than disagreement. I believe in transient response. I believe in the ability of components to make the attack of instruments more immediate or not. But when people on boards speak of electronic components actually changing the pace, rhythm and timing of the music, as if that term were meant to be used literally, I believe they take it way too far. 128kbps files, a cheap mp3 player and Radio Shack earbuds do not change the timing of the performance. An old belt drive table could, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

Tim

Labarum
13-02-2009, 12:10
I'm with you Tim. The technology can destroy the music, but it cannot create it. Only musicians can do that. You can have a musical performance that is technically very accurate, but lacks "soul": you can have a much less accomplished performance where the innate musicality of a developing musician is clearly struggling to get out.

Listen to the Young Musician of the Year Competition. Many times I have heard young pianists from Specialist Music schools (it seems to me most evident with pianists). They have been heavily drilled by their teachers, and their technical performance is most impressive, yet they lack the musical and emotional maturity to project themselves in and through the score. Whilst remaining impressive, the performance lacks conviction, and ultimately fails. Two or three years on they may well be different.

The technology cannot even enhance the musicality of the performance, though in some types of music an artful recording engineer can make the best of it. The record/replay chain in itself cannot, as I said add value, though it can surely wreck the music.

tfarney
13-02-2009, 12:17
The simple fact is that no information lost at source can ever be retrieved further down the chain by transducers or anything else

Of course. And of course that is very different from an electronic component changing the timing of a musical performance.

Tim

Labarum
13-02-2009, 12:31
I can reference a number of "eureka moments".

One in a HiFi shop a number of years ago - Quad Electrostatics and Cello Music. Before the music started I heard the resonance of the cello as the cellist picked it up. Aha! That's just how it is.

And more recently with Stan's DAC - just plugged it in - piano music off the Virgin Cable box at 128Kb/s MP2 - within two or three bars I had decided I was keeping the box. Listening to pno music showed great accuracy at the end of a movement as the pianist let the final chord die with the dampers off.

Notice in both cases I was making a judgement on the edges of the musical sounds, based on a knowlege of what the authentic instrument sounded like.

In both cases they are good technical reasons for my appreciation of the accuracy.

One day I will have a pair of electrostatics.

Marco
13-02-2009, 12:43
Of course. And of course that is very different from an electronic component changing the timing of a musical performance.

Tim

I think Stan will have a different view on this, so I'll let him answer if he has time. I could say more, but I'll save it for later.

Marco.

tfarney
13-02-2009, 13:28
I think Stan will have a different view on this, so I'll let him answer if he has time. I could say more, but I'll save it for later.

Marco.

Marco, I can tune an instrument to a professional strobe tuner, then put on a digital source, any digital source, from the cheapest mp3 player up, and play along, in perfect tune (well, as perfect as my imperfect musical instruments get), every time.

Not only is the timing of the music unchanged, the smallest nuance of pitch - the subtlest measure of accurate time reproduction of music - is audibly unchanged. Don't take my word for it. Ask any guitarist of an age to have played along with records and tape how that experience changed with CD. Don't even make it a leading question. You will get the same answer.

This is, as I said to Stan, a semantic disagreement, not a technical one. I clearly don't understand what audiophiles mean by pace, rhythm and timing, because they clearly cannot mean that electronics change the pace, rhythm and timing of the actual musical performance. Perhaps Stan can explain it to me.

Tim

StanleyB
13-02-2009, 13:41
I clearly don't understand what audiophiles mean by pace, rhythm and timing, because they clearly cannot mean that electronics change the pace, rhythm and timing of the actual musical performance. Perhaps Stan can explain it to me.
Explaining things like that means absolutely nothing, unless in the possession of an example to audition. The now famous MOD21 of mine is a typical example of how the change of a few components can affect the PRaT. But without a TC-7510 to play with, you are at a disadvantage in terms of finding out how components can affect PRaT.

leo
13-02-2009, 13:49
I find its mainly tone and signature altered regarding components.
Also some types/brands of capacitors can give the impression of adding a particular signature, some types make bass sound slow, even overblown and muddy yet others add HF distortion which we call harshness and brightness.

If you have a bunch of different brand components in the same value you can't assure they'll all sound the same used in a particular circuit

Theres a lot involved with electronic components , I honestly wish they didn't make much difference, it would make the job of fine tuning redundant :)

Covenant
13-02-2009, 13:56
You love it really Leo........

kalozois100
13-02-2009, 14:07
Marco, I can tune an instrument to a professional strobe tuner, then put on a digital source, any digital source, from the cheapest mp3 player up, and play along, in perfect tune (well, as perfect as my imperfect musical instruments get), every time.

Not only is the timing of the music unchanged, the smallest nuance of pitch - the subtlest measure of accurate time reproduction of music - is audibly unchanged. Don't take my word for it. Ask any guitarist of an age to have played along with records and tape how that experience changed with CD. Don't even make it a leading question. You will get the same answer.

This is, as I said to Stan, a semantic disagreement, not a technical one. I clearly don't understand what audiophiles mean by pace, rhythm and timing, because they clearly cannot mean that electronics change the pace, rhythm and timing of the actual musical performance. Perhaps Stan can explain it to me.

Tim
ofcourse Stan should answer this as its his invite however I'll contribute how I understand it. Take a visual correlation...
If a speeding car is coming towards me from my right side but I am looking straight ahead as it whizzes past and the someone asks me to describe the car I can offer very little.
Now the same car approches from the right side at the same speed but I turn my head towards it and pan it and see it for alot longer as it drives past, infront and follwing it to my left . I can now say clearly what colour it was, make and model and even who the driver was!!
Yet the car in both instances was the same. This is how I experiece the listening to a cd(in the first instance of the car) over ten years ago compared to present day listening( in the second instance of the car) .
Many years ago a friend and I had a discussion about "the cd" and wether it was capable of great sound but that technology was not yet refined to capture it. My question was answered with Stans dac after the modifications - and yes it is capable in my "ears" now. But, and this is a big but - " Everyone has their own set of ears":)

tfarney
13-02-2009, 14:58
As I said to Stan, this is a semantic issue, not a real one. Where I'm stumbling, I'm afraid, is on the term PRaT, and the over-zealous descriptions I've read from time to time over the years. I don't doubt for a moment that amplification and digital conversion can impact transient reponse, bass control, tone, etc. In fact, I know it is true from my own experience. But I also know that they do not audibly alter the actual timing of the musical performance. You can record a track on state-of-the-art equipment, play it back through really cheap equipment, and it will still sync with the rest of the tracks, the rest of the performance on the tape or file. This is not speculation.

But I'm being too literal. My bad.

Tim

kalozois100
13-02-2009, 15:41
As I said to Stan, this is a semantic issue, not a real one. Where I'm stumbling, I'm afraid, is on the term PRaT, and the over-zealous descriptions I've read from time to time over the years. I don't doubt for a moment that amplification and digital conversion can impact transient reponse, bass control, tone, etc. In fact, I know it is true from my own experience. But I also know that they do not audibly alter the actual timing of the musical performance. You can record a track on state-of-the-art equipment, play it back through really cheap equipment, and it will still sync with the rest of the tracks, the rest of the performance on the tape or file. This is not speculation.

But I'm being too literal. My bad.

Tim
Although the physics of the matter may be as you say it is(I'm no expert) that the actual timing is unaffacted, the emotional response from the now more emotionally/more detailed audio for the listener gives rise to the illussion and impression that it does. :confused:

tfarney
13-02-2009, 16:29
Although the physics of the matter may be as you say it is(I'm no expert) that the actual timing is unaffacted, the emotional response from the now more emotionally/more detailed audio for the listener gives rise to the illussion and impression that it does. :confused:

I've yet to experience that particular illusion. I can count out a tune and play along with a cd boom box or a studio monitoring system. The tempo feels no slower on the former, even though the transient response and dynamics are much faster on the latter.

Tim

Marco
13-02-2009, 17:16
I would agree with Kalozois. It's impossible to accurately describe or explain these things, but his post for me sums it up quite nicely.


But I'm being too literal.


With respect, Tim, I think you are a bit, as you do have quite a 'literal', 'black & white' way of looking at hi-fi when I would suggest that shades of grey are perhaps more appropriate.

As Kalozois says, it's not about the physics of the matter - no audio equipment can alter the actual timing of the musical performance recorded onto the disc or record; this is an impossibility, so you're right in that respect, but I believe it is possible (and I've heard the effect with my own ears) that certain equipment through judicious component selection and implementation of such can allow the ear to perceive better pitch and timing (pace, rhythm or whatever) by ensuring that this aspect of the musical performance is more faithfully reproduced.

Therefore, what it's about really is accuracy to the original sound (and musical performance) recorded onto the disc or record, and not any magical altering of the impossible. This is why that measurements only tell half the story when designing equipment - it is absolutely essential for a designer to listen and tune equipment by ear, and use his experience accordingly, to ensure that the other half of the story is told in order that the final result enjoyed by the listener is a truly musical one, and not just some bland (seemingly 'accurate' from measurements) sound, devoid of colour and emotion (that's the colour and emotion originally recorded onto the disc or record, not a by-product of the equipment's sonic signature), and the reproduction of a musical performance that's not believable in a real sense.

Quite simply, inferior equipment will often miss fine details which contribute to the successful discerning of pitch and timing by the ear, or not. People like Stan have the ability to eke out that extra few percent of music in recordings with their equipment designs because they know what to listen for - when to turn off the oscilloscope, discard other objective measurement apparatus, and have faith in their ears during the process of tuning the sound of their equipment, and crucially, they know what components to use or which part of the circuit to alter in order to create the effect that is necessary.

It's the latter that often defines a great DAC from merely an 'adequately good' DAC, or one that simply goes through the motions in music and relays this to the listener in an efficient but ultimately un-involving way, and one which connects the listener closest to the musical performance recorded onto the disc and gives him or her Goosebumps. That 'magic', in my experience, is often missed when an equipment designer does more measuring than listening and as such his designs appeal more to the head than to the heart... But then maybe some people like that?

Marco.

Marco
13-02-2009, 17:20
I've yet to experience that particular illusion. I can count out a tune and play along with a cd boom box or a studio monitoring system. The tempo feels no slower on the former, even though the transient response and dynamics are much faster on the latter.


Maybe that's because, as a musician, your brain can successfully fill in the gaps in the musical message (as a result of poor reproduction of the pitch and timing of the musical performance recorded originally onto the disc) missed by inferior DACs, or whatever, that other people who aren't trained as musicians require to be provided by better equipment? :)

Marco.

Labarum
13-02-2009, 17:36
Now here is a mystery.

I foolishly promised my 9 year old son, who had just graduated from a half size to a 3/4 cello that he could have a 4/4 cello when his teacher said he could handle it. That came round rather sooner than I had hoped. Given the rate of his improvement it was not worth scrimping on a cello. He is 23 and still has it. I grit my teeth and took my chequebook to the violin shop.

I was also confidently told the bow also could make a significant difference to the quality of the sound. This I found difficult to believe. After choosing a cello with the help of his teacher we moved to the bow room. The shop assistant pulled out four bows he though might go well with the chosen cello. My son played all four and ranked them in price order!

We took two away on approval, and he ended up with the more expensive of the two - £450 14 years ago. (Don't ask how much the cello cost - price of a small car!)

Now why should this be? Why should the bow make such a difference? Why should a 9 year old boy be able to rank the bows? (I too could hear the difference) There is something very odd going on here. So with HiFi boxes.

Pace
Rhythm
Attack
Timing

Call it what you will. Musicality will always be illusive, but equipment design should follow the science.

Labarum
13-02-2009, 17:43
Maybe that's because, as a musician, your brain can successfully fill in the gaps in the musical message

Some musicians don't care what they listen on. It is only a memory prompt for them - they are hearing their own ideal performance in their head.

Some hear the music just as successfully by reading the score.

Yet others get very picky about HiFi, because they know what the instruments should sound like.

tfarney
13-02-2009, 18:53
no audio equipment can alter the actual timing of the musical performance recorded onto the disc or record; this is an impossibility

Then we agree.

What a strange character I must be, though, to be so black and white and yet so capable of filling in the blanks and turning a recording into the music I hear in my head. :)

Tim

kbuech
13-02-2009, 18:54
While this a very interesting discussion, I'd love some comments on the topic of the thread. I'm yet to receive my 7520 and wonder. ....

1. Anyone compared it to Cambridge DAC Magic? Or Zero DAC? Or to any NOS DAC?

2. Has anyone compared the performance of 16 bit/44.1 input to the 7520 via USB vs. SPDIF?

Thanks folks,

Kurt

Marco
13-02-2009, 19:16
What a strange character I must be, though, to be so black and white and yet so capable of filling in the blanks and turning a recording into the music I hear in my head. :)


I guess you're just a talented chap, Tim! ;)

Marco.

Labarum
13-02-2009, 19:23
I think the whole PRAT thing, and I say Pace, Rhythm, Attack, Timing is try to address the question: is the whole system capable of singing the recorded music, or is it singing its own tune?

In the end its a matter of accuracy, neutrality and transparency.

"The closest approach to the original sound."

Marco
13-02-2009, 20:37
Indeed, Brian. I also agree with Tim, here:


Where I'm stumbling, I'm afraid, is on the term PRaT, and the over-zealous descriptions I've read from time to time over the years...


Some of the diehard Naim/Linn 'flat-earthers' are rather guilty of 'over-romanticising' the term.

Marco.

ReachtheSky
13-02-2009, 23:26
Stan, thanks for the clarification on the 7520 USB inputs and also the headphone amp and line output circuits.
Granville

Dougr33
14-02-2009, 00:33
I think the whole PRAT thing, and I say Pace, Rhythm, Attack, Timing is try to address the question: is the whole system capable of singing the recorded music, or is it singing its own tune?

In the end its a matter of accuracy, neutrality and transparency.

"The closest approach to the original sound."

From the west side of the pond, I think this is it. Your equipment can't "improve/make-more-pleasant" the sound of the master-tape on the original device and still be hi-fidelity. I think PRAT is achieved from simply fast, accurate and adequately powerful electronics moving fast, accurate, nondistorting full-range speakers to mimic the PRAT of the artists recorded on the tape. NO easy task, mind you!

kalozois100
14-02-2009, 07:04
Indeed, Brian. I also agree with Tim, here:



Some of the diehard Naim/Linn 'flat-earthers' are rather guilty of 'over-romanticising' the term.

Marco.
Im not sure what past unpleasant experiences you've had with linn/naim products or their listeners in the past but would be interesting to hear them. As I have said before I stuck with my linn system not because it is flawless but for cost reasons. If it sounds good to others that have heard it it is from owners of 400 pound midi stereo systems and not the the high end equipment aos members have here. It gets expensive changing hifi components to gain a few percent improvement in sound. Brian was spot on when he said that top sound could be had from a dac like Stans at a fraction of the cost compared to the cost of turntable upgrades. To get the same ratio of improvement in the LP12 I would have had to have spent over a 1000 pounds in upgrades but It only cost me 50 pounds for the modifications to the tc-7510. i don't think this is the behaviour of a flat earther in my case. but Marco I've known linn/naim owners that were so narrow and obsessed that they wouldn't even audition another brand even If their life depended on it! I did alot of research before buying the tc-7510 by reading around on forums and reviews and I"M very pleased with the outcome. Yet I did not hear it before buying! This is the beauty of a forum that being able to trust others' experiences on hifi matters can help you achieve great sound without a second mortgage. If I sounded over romantic when referring to the discussions on Prat then so be it im guilty as charged lock me up and throw away the key!! :doh:
P.s. talking about being romantic Don't forget the ladies in our lives(or men for any gay aos members- to be politically correct) its Valentimes Day today. Id open a thread "what are you playing for the love in your life " but don't know how to open new threads. :kiss:

Beechwoods
14-02-2009, 07:39
Hi Kalozois - to start a new thread, you go to the forum you want - say, Abstract Chat (http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10), and click the 'New Thread' blue button at the top left :)

Labarum
14-02-2009, 08:27
I think PRAT is achieved from simply fast, accurate and adequately powerful electronics moving fast, accurate, nondistorting full-range speakers to mimic the PRAT of the artists recorded on the tape. NO easy task, mind you!

Agreed. If there is a tape!

Fast and accurate. As I was saying: look to the margins. Can the system follow when cymbals or tympani are bashed? What happens to the last dying detail of a vibrating string as the volume sinks through the noise floor? How does the system maintain phase integrity? This is all science and technology.

But the science of how and why a bow makes a difference to the sound of a stringed instrument beats me. It must, surely, be something to do with the rigidity of the bow - one particular wood has been found to do the job best - pernambuco.

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/violintro.html

http://www.theviolinsite.com/violin_bows/index.html

kalozois100
14-02-2009, 09:42
Hi Kalozois - to start a new thread, you go to the forum you want - say, Abstract Chat (http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10), and click the 'New Thread' blue button at the top left :)

Cheers :cool:

jandl100
14-02-2009, 09:48
I believe it is possible (and I've heard the effect with my own ears) that certain equipment through judicious component selection and implementation of such can allow the ear to perceive better pitch and timing (pace, rhythm or whatever) by ensuring that this aspect of the musical performance is more faithfully reproduced.


I've got quite strong views on the PRaT business, especially as it refers to Naim systems.

I've done fairly extensive listening to some Naim kit and was able to directly and immediately compare it to more 'standard' non-PRaT gear.

Yes, the Naim did PRaT superbly, and while it was playing I thought to myself "Yes, I can definitely see a decent Naim system in my future". The same electronic/rythm&blues track was then played on the other system. Wow - dullsville, man. Definitely a Naim system in my future!

But some nicely recorded classical piano was then played on the Naim system - and suddenly the cunning trick was laid bare. What the Naim PRaT effect actually is, imho, is a deliberate thinning out of the mid- and lower-bass, so as to not-so-subtley enhance the projection of the midrange. What you are actually hearing is deliberate modification of the music to make it sound more impressive on some types of music.

That's why I loathe Naim kit so much. :)

Some kit (including Stan's excellent DACs) allows you to hear the pace and excitement of the music without deliberately distorting the tonality of the music. You can have it both ways!

kalozois100
14-02-2009, 09:58
Some kit (including Stan's excellent DACs) allows you to hear the pace and excitement of the music without deliberately distorting the tonality of the music. You can have it both ways!

Yeah Jerry i can now understand where you are coming from.
I agree with Stan's dacs allowing you to have it both ways but I would add at a bargain price!! :)

StanleyB
14-02-2009, 17:37
Yes, the Naim did PRaT superbly, and while it was playing I thought to myself "Yes, I can definitely see a decent Naim system in my future". The same electronic/rythm&blues track was then played on the other system. Wow - dullsville, man. Definitely a Naim system in my future!
[]
Some kit (including Stan's excellent DACs) allows you to hear the pace and excitement of the music without deliberately distorting the tonality of the music. You can have it both ways!
And that explains to a large extent why so many NAIM owners now have my DAC in their system:).

Labarum
14-02-2009, 17:47
And that explains to a large extent why so many NAIM owners now have my DAC in their system:).

It just means they have finally grown up, Stan.

kalozois100
14-02-2009, 20:30
While this a very interesting discussion, I'd love some comments on the topic of the thread. I'm yet to receive my 7520 and wonder. ....

1. Anyone compared it to Cambridge DAC Magic? Or Zero DAC? Or to any NOS DAC?

2. Has anyone compared the performance of 16 bit/44.1 input to the 7520 via USB vs. SPDIF?

Thanks folks,

Kurt

Hi there
I see your a fellow linn owner. You ' ll get some stick for that on this forum but you get used to it. Man your in for a treat with the TC-7520. Apparently has better output stage performance than TC-7510 a top headphone amp and usb. I have recently had the TC-7510 modded so I ll stick with that and see how it goes. :)
My best friend has a dacmagic that he bought for 300 euro my TC-75106/3 was 120 euro.
We compared the two on my system and the dac magic seemed better in that it had a smoother air-ry almost haunting sound Whereas the TC-7510 was a bit harsh and struggled with fast beat music. The experience inspired
me to upgrade the 7510 6/3. I also bought a new maplin power supply at 50 euro to feed the tc-7510 at 13.5v.
It is now a TC-7510 6/4 with LM4562MA op-amp to replacing the NJM4558.
I now prefer the beresford over the dacmagic because i now hear the difference that upsampling to 192khz produces and it deceives(this is purely subjective interpretation for all those upsampling fans) the listener into hearing more detail that is not really there. I prefer the tc-7510 at 96khz and it impressively defining every instrument and vocals. It just feels more authentic and life like and nearer to the concert type experience that every audiophile aims for. Tight bass, silky smooth trebles and inviting mids.And a stage presence to die for. And goose pimples.... theres' plenty of them now!!....
....and the 7520 from the reviews sounds like a lion unleashed from its cage!
My friend has since ordered a new opamp burson at 114 euro to upgrade the dac magic!! He wonders if he was hasty to do this but I guess the upgraded tc-7510 inspired him to do so. I wish him well to achieve better audio.
My dac doesn't have usb but from what i've read you cannot get higher than 16 bit 44.1khz signal and since I now have 24 bit 96khz i prefer that to what i had before. My music collection is mainly LP and CD and have little in the form of flac or mp3.
I understand you wondering if you've gone for the right dac and i want to reassure you that i think you have. Just burn it in for at least 100 hours before making any assessment of its capabilities. The beresford plays amazing sound with the linn components I have and I'm sure it will too with your set up. :)

Marco
24-02-2009, 08:19
Nice reviews, guys - keep it up! :)

Marco.

trailer
24-02-2009, 08:26
It just means they have finally grown up, Stan.

I'm a great fan of Naim amplification but not of their CD (even though I have one) and their speakers (which I don't have).

Maybe it's just that the Beresford DAC and Naim amps go well together.

Derro
24-02-2009, 09:10
Ok ..... I have held back long enough and think that its now time to pass comment on the new Beresford 7520 DAC. It has now been running in for over two weeks, 24/7 and has definitely refined its sound and is now more precise and smooth, articulate and dynamic then it was the first day or two. In the initial stages I did not do any serious listening, but only enough to get a handle on its inherent sound signature. Forget about a burn in period of 24 - 48 or even 100 hours... it needs much more than that and I suggest 12/14 days and it starts to really show just what it is capable of. Choice of interconnect, as always, will have a bearing on the final result.

I have been using the Apogee Duet, or Apogee Mini DAC up to this and I decided that the DUET was better, despite it being considerably less expensive than the Apogee Mini DAC - The Apogee having replaced a KingRex DAC in the past and the computer is an Apple MacBook running iTunes 8.0.2

Two systems were used in two different rooms and consisted of a pair of Walton Audio 300B mono block S.E.T. amps driving my own high efficiency speakers, both reflex and open baffle and/or Soliloquy 6.3 or Spendor BC1.

So now, how does the Beresford 7520 stack up against the Apogee?

Well, after considerable time and some pretty intense listening sessions using every type of music, classical,chamber, pop, jazz, folk, acoustic - there is a clear winner for me between these. The Beresford is everything I could wish for in a DAC in terms of sound quality. Beautiful midrange and top end and a bass line that is tight and punchy and deep. There are no nasties, sibilance or edginess to be heard in this DAC and makes no difference if you use optical or USB, the results are equal. I should also point out, as others have mentioned, yes, MP3 files do sound better and very listenable now through this DAC! When something is "right" there is actually very little you can say about it! Its much easier to write about something when it is not right.

A DAC that has four inputs offering you USB, optical or SPDIF, that has two outputs including a variable one, along with a great headphone amplifier that WILL drive my Sennheiser HD650, is in itself a lot to expect from a DAC and certainly at this price it is amazing! OK, the casework is only what I would call "reasonable" and it does the job ..... but I am sure that if this was packaged in a fancy case with thick milled metal facia and trick feet and esoteric styling and an elitist brand name, it would cost many many times the current price and make no difference to the sound. In the future I can see myself re-housing it in something more t my liking. This is actually going to be a nice little project to make what I would consider a better chassis/cabinet for it.

Derro

StanleyB
24-02-2009, 21:23
Just a quick update. All UK pre-orders are arriving at customers doorsteps tomorrow:). EU pre-orders are in transit.

Any AoS member who sent me a PM to order a TC-7520 at the AoS member's price, but ended up not getting a reply from me due to the recent site wipe out, can you please send in your request again?

Stan

Covenant
24-02-2009, 21:37
Hi Stan,
I would like to order a 7520 at AOS members price. Please give me details and I will get the ball rolling.
Jerry (Covenant)

foxysounds
25-02-2009, 09:50
Just a quick update. All UK pre-orders are arriving at customers doorsteps tomorrow:). EU pre-orders are in transit.

Any AoS member who sent me a PM to order a TC-7520 at the AoS member's price, but ended up not getting a reply from me due to the recent site wipe out, can you please send in your request again?

Stan
Hi Stan,

I have been reading about your DACs since I joined this forum and I'm pretty sure I'll be buying one in the not-too-distant future. I haven't previously seen any reference to an AoS member's price for either of your DACs and a quick search of the forum hasn't revealed anything.

What is the member's price for the TC-7520 and is there also a member's price for the TC-7510 6/4?

Thanks,

Simon.

StanleyB
25-02-2009, 10:11
What is the member's price for the TC-7520 and is there also a member's price for the TC-7510 6/4?

Simon.
Hi Simon,

the AoS member price is only available via PM. This is to avoid folks emailing me direct in order to pretend to be an AoS member;). So send me a Pm and you can then have the details.

Stan

theone999
25-02-2009, 23:26
Hey stan, before the crash I think I read somewhere that someone said that he noticed an improvement in his mp3s when played back on the 7520.

I had a thought of "how can he tell that the 7520 is specifically making mp3s sound good because it could be making mp3s sound good because it makes anything sound good"?

I just thought that would be hard to distinguish which one it is?

Jkinsey
26-02-2009, 01:56
Does anyone have experience with the 7120 amp with the new power supply and low impedance phones (like the HD595 or ATH-AD700)? I have an ATH-AD900 and the 7120 seems like an excellent value, but I want to be sure it won't overpower my phones before purchasing.

Thank you!

Pidzej
26-02-2009, 03:23
Does anyone have experience with the 7120 amp with the new power supply and low impedance phones (like the HD595 or ATH-AD700)? I have an ATH-AD900 and the 7120 seems like an excellent value, but I want to be sure it won't overpower my phones before purchasing.

I have HD555 modded to 595 and have the 7510 (the older one) and it does not overpower them. I think 7520 is not different in this regard.

Btw can anybody say if 7520 is worthy upgrade for those HD595 ? I am also using KRK RP6 active studio monitors with the DAC (currently more then the headphones actually).

StanleyB
26-02-2009, 07:27
Does anyone have experience with the 7120 amp with the new power supply and low impedance phones (like the HD595 or ATH-AD700)? I have an ATH-AD900 and the 7120 seems like an excellent value, but I want to be sure it won't overpower my phones before purchasing.

Thank you!
I can adjust the gain slope for you to match your cans for an extra U$5. The HP amp output is a high-end design that is not normally found on anything other than stand alone HP amps. And since few people have ever heard a decent stand alone HP amp, the TC-7520 HP amp capability is a bit of a shocker at the first try. It's like driving a Porsche first the first time. Just go easy on the gas pedal till you get the hang of things.

Stan

StanleyB
26-02-2009, 07:31
Btw can anybody say if 7520 is worthy upgrade for those HD595 ? I am also using KRK RP6 active studio monitors with the DAC (currently more then the headphones actually).
From my understanding, the TC-7520 headphone amp is a close match to some top stand alone headphone amps.

StanleyB
26-02-2009, 07:40
I had a thought of "how can he tell that the 7520 is specifically making mp3s sound good because it could be making mp3s sound good because it makes anything sound good"?

I just thought that would be hard to distinguish which one it is?
The great US golfer Tom Watson once said that the more he practised to put the ball from seemingly impossible positions, the more that people said that they were lucky shots.

Photochromatic
26-02-2009, 08:31
Hey stan, before the crash I think I read somewhere that someone said that he noticed an improvement in his mp3s when played back on the 7520.

I had a thought of "how can he tell that the 7520 is specifically making mp3s sound good because it could be making mp3s sound good because it makes anything sound good"?

I just thought that would be hard to distinguish which one it is?

That was one of my posts - I will attempt to recreate and update my review over the weekend.
The 7520 *does* make everything sound better.
However, the treatment it gives to low bitrate files seems different (to my ear) than the general goodness it imparts to high bitrate files. Most of my source material is ALAC (lossless), some is AAC (256-bit), and there is the usual smattering of odd and old .mp3 files which I haven't replaced yet. The .mp3 files are between 64 and 128 bit for the most part. The 7520 seems to obscure the compression artefacts on all but the very worst of these. They sound smoother, and when you come across one the difference between it and a high quality file is less jarring. It is not magic - you can still tell the lower quality files for the most part, but they are more enjoyable to listen to, and don't stick out like sore thumbs any more.
I'm generally listening on ATH-M50 cans. These are very revealing and unforgiving of poor rips and over-compression to the point where I would usually skip over a LQ .mp3 file because it was grating to listen to. I don't seem to do that any more.

shuggz
26-02-2009, 13:15
Well the 7520 turned up yesterday and is indeed quite a revelation in terms of dynamics vs costs.
I've put it up against a couple of higher end dacs and cdp's and the 7520 imparts more detail and depth.
Others who have heard it say more or less the same and all of this whilst using a bog standard coax cable.
Nice one Stan and I can see why a few manufacturers/dealers aren't going to be terribly enthralled by this device, begs the question as to why they can't produce more cost efficient kit of similar audible quality.

Covenant
27-02-2009, 21:05
Received mine today, the usual fast service from Stan. I wont comment on sound quality until it's burnt in a bit but I was suprised how more upmarket the 7520 appears. The combination of the large volume control, blue led's and
better graphics certainly add something.

Photochromatic
28-02-2009, 07:09
So here is another review - somebody please check the nightly backups are working, I'm not going to do this again!:doh:

I received my TC-7520 the week before last, two days after it shipped, and about a week before I was expecting it. Good start!

First Impressions
The unit looks good in spite of lacking some of the flashy accoutrements of some of its competition. It feels solid, the finish is clean, the detail on the front has a minimalist, quality feel, and I like blue LEDs! Around back, the connectors are clearly labelled and the screws underneath all sit nicely. You get the feeling that you could happily drop this down the stairs and it would still work. I won't :)
The volume knob moves smoothly, with perhaps a little less resistance than I would like, but it does have a quality feel to the motion.
I don't like the wall-wart PSU but I won't complain at this price! At least it is small.

Setup
I listen mainly with headphones, so the headphone amp stage is of as much interest to me as the DAC itself.
The TC-7520 is connected via TOSLINK to a Mac Pro, set to 44k1, 24-bit output. I play mainly ALAC (lossless) files from iTunes, although there are some mp3 and AAC in there too, as well as a few higher resolution 96k-24bit WAV files. All of the ALAC is ripped by yours truly using MAX to get bit-perfect transfers. I'm mainly listening on Audio-Technica ATH-M50 headphones, which are very revealing and detailed (sometimes to a fault). I have others I sometimes use to see if what I am hearing is cans-related, but I know the M-50s really well.

Burn-In
My TC-7520 has about 200 hours of use on the clock now, and I think it has settled down quite a lot.
The DAC burned in over about 50 hours. Initially there was a sibilant character to the high's and an almost hyper-detailed character to the sound in general, but it has settled down and opened out to become much more musical than my initial impression of it.
The head amp is *mostly* burned in now. It managed to be both tight up high and sloppy down low to start with. The tightness at the high end was quite quick to disappear (30-40 hours) and the bass has firmed up a lot, and is still improving. It is still challenged a little by some of my most difficult tracks that are very bassy and busy, especially if there is a lot of gain in the recording. However the improvement so far has been substantial *and* is continuing *and* I am nit-picking over some dozen particularly challenging tracks. Give it another 100 hours, and I am sure it will be fine.

Warmup
I find that the amp in particular needs about 30 minutes from cold to sound at its best. I rarely turn stuff off anyway.

Impressions
The first thing I notice when listening via the 7520 is actually the spaciousness of the sound stage, even when listening with closed headphones. I can place individual violins of the LSO when listening to Elgar. I could almost reach out and smack the guy with the cough in the bar where Miles Davis is playing. The imaging is very precise, and live music in particular just, well, comes to life.
The detail and clarity are also excellent. Fret movements, picks, snares, spit(!) - its all there. I like to hear detail in my music, even to a fault. I am loving the detail that the 7520 reveals, especially in live and/or largely acoustic music. Some of my stuff is originally ripped from vinyl and even in that I am hearing detail that I had forgotten (or never knew) was there.
Vocals are lovely - especially female vocals (although that may just be my preference anyway). I'm finding it hard to multi-task when listening via the TC-7520 because I keep having to stop and listen!
When playing "loud" music, I am impressed by the ability of the 7520 to clearly show detail in the midst of distortion (note comments about the amp and busy bass though).
Overall, the character of the DAC + Head Amp is slightly warm (but without adding colour), not at all clinical, and remarkably versatile. I can go from Punk to Jazz to Metal to Classical without noticing any real shortcomings.
I should also mention the noise floor of the amp - there isn't one! Turned up all the way, I can't hear any hiss at all through 38-ohm headphones. None at all. Nice.

USB
I have A/B'd the USB and the TOSLINK connectors and can't discern any difference at all. That's a good USB stage!

Low Bit-rate Files
As I have posted earlier, the TC-7520 seems to do something to enhance the sound (or at least mask the errors) in low bit-rate files. It is almost like some kind of up-sampling is at work (although I doubt it, given Stan's opinion of up-sampling). 64 and 128-bit .mp3 files don't sound like lossless by any means, but they don't offend as much as normal. Almost as though something has smoothed out the spiky bits of the waveform where the errors are, and left the rest alone. It is not that they sound better, as much as that they don't sound as bad! Given the detail that the 7520 otherwise imparts, I would expect it to emphasise the difference between the LQ and HQ files, and it does, just not offensively.

My Verdict
I paid USD200 for this device. I am very happy.
I think the DAC is excellent value for money. I'm not an expert on high-end DACs, but I have heard a few, and to my mind the TC-7520 is proof of the law of diminishing returns. I think you'd need to spend a pile of money on the rest of your rig before you needed something better then this.
If you are going to use headphones a lot, then the news is even better. This isn't the very best head amp I have heard, but it is at least 80% of amps which cost five times the money of the 7520, and then you'd still need a DAC.

Spectral Morn
28-02-2009, 10:19
Photochromatic


Nice write up.....I don't know about the other readers but I love to see photos of the review system and location. For me it just helps paint a fuller picture.




Regards D S D L---Neil :)

JakeBlade
28-02-2009, 11:42
Setup
I listen mainly with headphones, so the headphone amp stage is of as much interest to me as the DAC itself.
The TC-7520 is connected via TOSLINK to a Mac Pro, set to 44k1, 24-bit output. I play mainly ALAC (lossless) files from iTunes, although there are some mp3 and AAC in there too, as well as a few higher resolution 96k-24bit WAV files. All of the ALAC is ripped by yours truly using MAX to get bit-perfect transfers. I'm mainly listening on Audio-Technica ATH-M50 headphones, which are very revealing and detailed (sometimes to a fault). I have others I sometimes use to see if what I am hearing is cans-related, but I know the M-50s really well.



Hi Richard,

Have you listened without cans? Would be interested in how the 7520 performs through your regular amp and speakers, what they are, and how you have the rest of your system set-up.

200 hours... ??? That's serious investment!! Has anyone else out there been enjoying their new toy for that long yet?

Btw, looks like Stan has just set-up another thread looking for feedback on the new DAC - probably worth posting a link to your excellent review on there too.

James

tizer2000uk
28-02-2009, 17:52
I have finally tried the 7520 on my system in the lounge (Got these for the headphones) and have to say it sounds great, not a great leap up from the 7510+ which I have to say made a night and day difference to my 7 year old kit, my system is not high end by any means (Pioneer DV717 player, Cambridge A1 Mk3 amp and Tannoy Mercury F1 speakers) and any huge leaps in sound quality are likely to be masked by my other components. That said the sound through the headphone section is fantastic, very revealing and musical, not quite as good as the sound through a Slee Solo amp but so so close, in fact the difference is minimal at best and actually makes this bit of kit the bargain of the century for me. 2 weeks ago I sat here pricing up a new set of headphones (SR325i) and headphone amp (Slee Solo) after hearing them at a dealer and got a serious case of upgraditis, now the 325i remains on the list and the 7520 has saved me £295!

Sheldon N
28-02-2009, 23:50
Has anyone compared the 7520 with the Cambridge Audio DacMagic?

I currently have a DacMagic for my computer listening system (Audio Engine A2's or Grado SR125's) but the DacMagic is going to head for the downstairs main system to be paired with a Mac Mini as a source and I need a new DAC for the computer system.

I am curious what sort of "character differences" I'm going to hear between the DAC portion of the 7520 and the DacMagic. I know that the headphone amp of the 7520 is going to be much better than what I have right now, but I'm not sure what differences to expect with the DAC/speakers.

tizer2000uk
01-03-2009, 01:16
Sheldon, I listened to the Dacmagic just before I got myself the 7510 and the sound was a little better with the Dacmagic, the 7520 though has closed the gap. The Dacmagic is no longer a bargain at £200 when you hear what the 7520 through the Grados is capable of (I have the SR80's).

The one thing I did not like the idea of too much was the fact the Dacmagic upsamples to 192khz 24Bit, this essentially adds extra information to the mix that was not there to start with, granted it gives the mix a sense of more space but sometimes it can do things that spoil the mix, one example for me was Otis Redding's 'Sittin on the Dock', at the beginning there is the sound of waves rolling in, the 7520 plays it as it should, the Dacmagic made the waves sound a bit weird. (Bizarre I know).

Personally I like to hear the music warts and all, as it was intended.

The one feature from the Dacmagic I would like to see is the inclusion of a stand so I can have it standing vertically alongside my monitor.

Tyrone

Photochromatic
01-03-2009, 09:42
Hi Richard,

Btw, looks like Stan has just set-up another thread looking for feedback on the new DAC - probably worth posting a link to your excellent review on there too.

James

Sure - if someone can tell me how!

JakeBlade
01-03-2009, 10:17
The one feature from the Dacmagic I would like to see is the inclusion of a stand so I can have it standing vertically alongside my monitor.

Tyrone

Hi Tyrone,

The DacMagic has the option of vertical or horizontal mounting. Horizontal is from stick on pads that stick to the underside of the box to lift the front plate clear of whatever you sit it on. Vertical mounting is from a sturdy black rubber 'boot'. You get both in the box as standard. (Or did you mean you'd want to see a vertical mount for the 7520...?)

James

tizer2000uk
01-03-2009, 12:25
Hi Tyrone,

The DacMagic has the option of vertical or horizontal mounting. Horizontal is from stick on pads that stick to the underside of the box to lift the front plate clear of whatever you sit it on. Vertical mounting is from a sturdy black rubber 'boot'. You get both in the box as standard. (Or did you mean you'd want to see a vertical mount for the 7520...?)

James

I wanted to see this on the 7520 :)

trailer
01-03-2009, 13:56
The DACMagic is now £230 I believe.

JakeBlade
01-03-2009, 22:28
Exchange rates apparently. That €50 note that's been sitting around on my bedside table for the past 6-months has turned out to be a nice little earner.

Clive
01-03-2009, 22:38
Here’s my report on the 7520. I can’t compare it to a 7510 as I’ve never heard one. First of all some context - my system:

Meridian 588 CDP into TX-102 TVC into WE91 300B SE power amps feeding Bastanis Atlas open baffles and 18-inch dipole bass/sub-bass powered by XTZ Sub Amp 1 DSP (bass is +/- 3db in room due to DSP compensation).

As way of a reference I also have a Garrard 301, twin-tier Slatedeck plinth, Terminator linear-tracking arm, ZYX R100 cartridge, valve phono stage.

The 7520 has 60 hours of burn-in with music running.

The 7520 coupled to the Meridian 588 via coax or optical showed improvements in bass and a better fleshed out soundstage between the speakers. A useful but not huge improvement. Bear in mind this is well regarded £2k CDP from not so many years ago so maybe a huge improvement should not be expected.

However…..the 7520 was a participant in a truly massive improvement in sound. My first foray into PC-Audio was to hook up the 7520 via USB to my laptop running XP, Foobar with ASIO, I was playing CD’s EAC ripped as single WAVs and I believe I’m avoiding kmixer.

Tight, powerful and fast bass. Fast mid-range, with superb separation of instruments, the soundstage between the speakers now has a place for every instrument, it’s not left, right & centre any more. Vocals are very believable with no nasty digital sibilance. The top-end is light and airy, clean and well balanced. The rhythms are pacey and infectiously get you moving to the music. The overall effect bears little resemblance to what I hear from CD players – even the very best and most expensive. Vs PC-Audio the 588 sounds out of focus and diffuse. PC-Audio with 7520 sounds much closer to LP than I expected it would.

For someone like me who is a committed vinylista this was quite revelation. I can now play my 500 or so CDs with a similar enthusiasm that I have when playing records. I’ve just got to rip around 450 more of my CD’s, the 7520 has ensured I’ll be kept busy for some time.

I can’t say to what extent what I’m hearing is due to:
- the quality of the 7520 DAC
- the quality of the USB input on the 7520
- the inherent quality of PC-Audio vs CDP

Probably what I’m hearing is due to all of the above, for sure the 7520 is not holding the sound back whereas it does seem that the Meridian 588 transport is. I suspect this would be the case for any CDP transport relative to PC-Audio.

Spectral Morn
01-03-2009, 22:54
Sure - if someone can tell me how!


Hi Photochromatic

Two ways you can do this. First ask one of the admin team or Mods to do it for you. If you want to part do it yourself go to your review and hit quote at the bottom of the page. Then use your mouse to highlight the review click ctrl and c that copies it. Then go to the new thread in the section you want and hit ctrl and v that pastes it into the new post...you will have to remove the quote icons at the top and bottom of the piece or quote lines and tags will appear on the saved page. The original would have to stay as if it was removed it would ruin the flow of the original thread.

Regards D S D L----Neil :)

ReachtheSky
02-03-2009, 00:00
Clive, thanks for a great review on the 7520 and in particular the PC-Audio/USB application.

What amazing results with the PC-Audio/USB - at 16/44 - outperforming the coax - at 24/96 - from a good digital transport source (the Meridian 588 CDP.)

Can anybody reason or explain how and why?
Apart from more Stan wizardry, it dosen't make sense to me.

roscoeiii
02-03-2009, 03:06
There was mention by Stan in this thread of an upgraded power supply for the 7520. When is this going to be available? And will it add any cost to the 7520? Upgradable for those who have already purchased 7520? If so, how much would it cost?

Steve Toy
02-03-2009, 03:38
I heard Stan's new DAC yesterday at the Scalford Hall Show. It was superb in conjunction with Rob's (Filterlab) computer audio setup.

We did find though that it responds positively to being moved from sitting on a cardboard box to one of our proper acrylic Music Works/Quadraspire shelves. This simple relocation brought about improved dynamics, more tunefulness and a bigger soundstage.

ReachtheSky
02-03-2009, 06:26
Hi Steve
I am interested in more details of Rob's computer audio set-up that you refer to above. I am contemplating setting up the same from scratch and would be most interested in recommendations regarding which path to follow. This is a relatively "new area", yet there appears to be many different options to choose from.
This has probably been addressed before. I would appreciate a lead to a link.
Thank you, Granville

StanleyB
02-03-2009, 07:34
Can anybody reason or explain how and why?
Apart from more Stan wizardry, it dosen't make sense to me.
How much of my design skills makes sense;)? I must have many other designers ripping my unit apart just to find out how I do it:scratch:.
The USB bit is down to thinking out of the box. I use a separate re-clocking for the USB, instead of the same re-clocking of the remaining digital inputs. One reason for that is the fact that for bit accuracy and low jitter purposes a combined re-clocking frequency would be a compromise for either type of signals. So they had to have their own clocks.
The USB circuit is also isolated from the rest of the digital circuit and is in fact on its own PCB that is around 15mm up in the air and away from the main digital PCB. Only two wires go from the USB PCB to the main PCB. That way none of he USB circuitry tracks come in contact or share space with anything else. So digital data from the USB side don't cross path with any other digital signal.

I used the same technique for the output stage. It too is about 25mm up in the air and away from any digital or power supply signal and wiring. All that helps to keep the various signal routes from getting affected by noise and artefacts from adjacent signal routes.

What I found is that even though this method of designing involves the fabrication of several circuit boards, the audible benefits are well worth it. For production reasons, a lot of companies use the far cheaper option of banging everything on one PCB. But my reckoning is that even if it cost me more at the manufacturing end to have four boards when just about everyone else would try to get away with just one, the results from my DAC would encourage more customers to go for my DAC and thereby offset my increased manufacturing cost.

Stan

StanleyB
02-03-2009, 07:39
We did find though that it responds positively to being moved from sitting on a cardboard box to one of our proper acrylic Music Works/Quadraspire shelves. This simple relocation brought about improved dynamics, more tunefulness and a bigger soundstage.
Hi Steve,

can you PM me details of the shelf? I am quite prepared to mention it on my site. Any samples available for testing and photo shoots?

STan

Krisbee
02-03-2009, 07:57
Is anyone using Stan's TC-7520 with LINUX?

Stan's instruction PDF only mentions USB connection is compatible with Windows and MAC OS X and Stan appears never to have tested his DAC with LINUX.

Can anyone confirm that when using the USB connection in LINUX that the device is automatically detected as an external sound card and the ALSA module snd-usb-audio is used? (What does "aplay -l" show?)

I've no idea what chipset his USB section uses, but if it's the Burr Brown family eg PCM290X then I would expect LINUX to detect it OK but would really like confirmation.

StanleyB
02-03-2009, 08:01
There was mention by Stan in this thread of an upgraded power supply for the 7520. When is this going to be available? And will it add any cost to the 7520? Upgradable for those who have already purchased 7520? If so, how much would it cost?
It is due end of this month. I shall offer the TC-7510 power supply and the new TC-7520 as optional items to pick from. At the moment the TC-7520 is shipping with the TC-7510 power supply. The new PSU will however work on the TC-7510 as well.
Cost is not yet for certain. At the moment I am hoping that I can ship it to most parts of the world for less than £25. It is a brand new unit that a PSU manufacturer developed for me after he tried a TC-7510 and got interested in designing a dedicated PSU that would do more justice to the DAC. Since it is a new unit, it is going through the required products approvals. But be prepared. Just like my DACs, it doesn't look like much when you first open the box. I am not a PSU design expert, but the designer of the TC-7520 PSU is. And he owns a massive PSU manufacturing company:). So I trust him when he tells me that he spent months trying out different design ideas and listening to each of them carefully, before settling on the final version.
It is a 12V 1.2A switched mode design that comes with a separate figure of 8 mains lead. The design is based on maximum audio performance from the DAC, not maximum amperage. So don't expect a massive brick weighing a few stones with inch thick wires coming from it.

Stan

StanleyB
02-03-2009, 08:07
Is anyone using Stan's TC-7520 with LINUX?

Stan's instruction PDF only mentions USB connection is compatible with Windows and MAC OS X and Stan appears never to have tested his DAC with LINUX.

Can anyone confirm that when using the USB connection in LINUX that the device is automatically detected as an external sound card and the ALSA module snd-usb-audio is used?

I've no idea what chipset his USB section uses, but if it's the Burr Brown family eg PCM290X then I would expect LINUX to detect it OK but would really like confirmation.
It is the PCM290X. I think that instead of posting the question on various forums, when I already mentioned to you that nobody has tried it on Linux, why not try it for yourself and let the rest of us know if it does or does not work on Linux? That would be far more helpful and give you a few Browny points:). I can offer you the DAC at the beta tester price in return for you doing the Linux related tests.

Stan

Clive
02-03-2009, 08:38
Clive, thanks for a great review on the 7520 and in particular the PC-Audio/USB application.

What amazing results with the PC-Audio/USB - at 16/44 - outperforming the coax - at 24/96 - from a good digital transport source (the Meridian 588 CDP.)

Can anybody reason or explain how and why?
Apart from more Stan wizardry, it dosen't make sense to me.
I wasn't expecting such a conclusive result. Yes the 588 should be a good transport, it's a high speed drive that fills a buffer which feed the DAC. Although the PC/Audio connection is only running at 16/44 we're still talking redbook replay from 16/44 data anyway. I can only put the difference down to the CD technique of re-tries and error correction vs a computer reading a file that must be bit perfect. It's not the first time I've read that PC-Audio creams CDP's but it is the first time I've heard it.

Covenant
02-03-2009, 08:43
'It is a 12V 1.2A switched mode design that comes with a separate figure of 8 mains lead'
Stan-Did you decide on a SMPSU because linear ones are too expensive, or for other reasons?

Krisbee
02-03-2009, 09:12
It is the PCM290X. I think that instead of posting the question on various forums, when I already mentioned to you that nobody has tried it on Linux, why not try it for yourself and let the rest of us know if it does or does not work on Linux? That would be far more helpful and give you a few Browny points:). I can offer you the DAC at the beta tester price in return for you doing the Linux related tests.

Stan

Stan,

I posted the question as it might just have been possible that someone has tried the Tc-7520 with LINUX and you were not aware of it. I was hoping for some quick feedback to avoid delaying my purchase decision any further and help others.

I'd be happy to act as a beta tester and can contact you directly about that. But it's not really necessary, you don't have to be some kind of LINUX expert to do this.

All it needs is for someone to use one of the many LINUX LiveCDs in their PC to see if the TC-7520 USB connection is detected.

Using a LINUX Live CD will leave any existing Windows/MAC installation completely untouched and if you can boot your PC from the CD or DVD drive are straightforward to use.

bong
02-03-2009, 14:49
just got my mitts on one of stan's 7520s. as i haven't got the right cables, usb/toslink/optical, it can only sit on my shelf for now. will start the grand burn-in journey once i get the cables sorted tomorrow. will try and post more impressions then.

stan, do keep us informed when the new psu's ready. i'd love to hear it at its best!

shakey
02-03-2009, 21:05
The TC-7520 works great in Linux (im running alsa 1.0.19 under intrepid). It get reported as a chip from Burr/TI.

I am still not sure if I need the X-Can v3 between my HD650 and the 7520. The jury is still out on that one.

cheers!
Niklas

lsusb:
Bus 002 Device 004: ID 08bb:2902 Texas Instruments Japan

aplay -l
**** List of PLAYBACK Hardware Devices ****
...
card 1: default [USB Audio CODEC ], device 0: USB Audio [USB Audio]
Subdevices: 1/1
Subdevice #0: subdevice #0



Is anyone using Stan's TC-7520 with LINUX?

Stan's instruction PDF only mentions USB connection is compatible with Windows and MAC OS X and Stan appears never to have tested his DAC with LINUX.

Can anyone confirm that when using the USB connection in LINUX that the device is automatically detected as an external sound card and the ALSA module snd-usb-audio is used? (What does "aplay -l" show?)

I've no idea what chipset his USB section uses, but if it's the Burr Brown family eg PCM290X then I would expect LINUX to detect it OK but would really like confirmation.

Dougr33
02-03-2009, 22:26
Just curious, Stan, on operation of the HP socket. On the 7510, it would turn off the variable out to the power amp when phones were plugged in (even if just my 1/4" adaptor was plugged in w/out phones attached, which seemed unusual to me).
But on my new 7520, the phones and power amp play simultaneously.

Just curious as to the design thinking. Something to do with cleaner signals and the variable ohm range of phones?

Krisbee
02-03-2009, 22:42
The TC-7520 works great in Linux (im running alsa 1.0.19 under intrepid). It get reported as a chip from Burr/TI.

lsusb:
Bus 002 Device 004: ID 08bb:2902 Texas Instruments Japan

aplay -l
**** List of PLAYBACK Hardware Devices ****
...
card 1: default [USB Audio CODEC ], device 0: USB Audio [USB Audio]
Subdevices: 1/1
Subdevice #0: subdevice #0

Thanks for the Linux confirmation. I assume this is just using the generic ALSA usb audio module snd-usb-audio and no special configuration was needed in modules.conf or .asoundrc used.

rupes
04-03-2009, 08:46
Thanks for the Linux confirmation. I assume this is just using the generic ALSA usb audio module snd-usb-audio and no special configuration was needed in modules.conf or .asoundrc used.

Yep, went round to Stan's last night with my linux eeePC laptop. snd-usb-audio loaded automatically and played fine using mplayer. Nothing in my modules.conf or .asoundrc.

As the onboard soundcard was seen as the first soundcard and the TC-7520 the second, I used the following command:

mplayer -ao alsa:device=hw=1.0
[first device on second soundcard]

Big thanks to Stan for the demo.

lwd
04-03-2009, 14:23
Just curious, Stan, on operation of the HP socket. On the 7510, it would turn off the variable out to the power amp when phones were plugged in (even if just my 1/4" adaptor was plugged in w/out phones attached, which seemed unusual to me).
But on my new 7520, the phones and power amp play simultaneously.

Just curious as to the design thinking. Something to do with cleaner signals and the variable ohm range of phones?

I'm also curious about this. In the manual it says the other outputs will mute when a headphone is inserted. But in practice it doesn't seem to do this.

Very happy with the 7520 by the way. :)

tizer2000uk
04-03-2009, 22:22
I have been running the 7520 on my system downstairs this evening listening to a few cd's and running another comparison against the 7510 that lives down there. The dvd player is set to output at 16bit and my system upstairs is set to output at 24bit, both modes make the music sound very different.

If foobar is set to output at 16 bit the music seems sharper and more detailed in the higher registers and I can also hear more background hiss on bad recordings. If I set Foobar to output at 24 bit the sound is more laid back with slightly less seperation.

Is the 7520 employing any kind of upsampling/oversampling at 16 bit?

Covenant
05-03-2009, 13:26
My 7520 has been used for about 50 hours, I have just listened to a track by Ryan Adams-Wonderwall and the quality is astonishing bearing in mind it was on 128Kb radio.
So if you have any doubt: ITS BLOODY BRILLIANT-GO AND GET ONE!

The icing on the cake was that I sold my 7510 for over £100 so the extra cost is minimal.

Well done Stan-cant stop-more music to listen to. :gig:

Krisbee
05-03-2009, 22:35
My box of black magic arrived this morning. Thanks to Stan for the express delivery and for putting up with being pestered by me about Linux compatibility. No worries on that score, as others have said, the USB stage is basically "plug and play" and I have tried it with a few of the popular Linux distros.

It's too early for critical listening, but a quick A/B comparison between optical out from my PC soundcard and direct USB connection left my old ears unable to hear a difference over my hd595 headphones.

It seems a bit incongruous using a bog standard £3 USB cable between my PC and the DAC, and not some esoteric high price optical/coax cable. But who cares, 'cos even now it's making great musical sense of what I've thrown at it. I'm more than happy .....

drumlins4ever
05-03-2009, 23:39
Would i be right in saying that most people seem to prefer the sound of the 7520 over the 7510 ?

StanleyB
06-03-2009, 00:21
Would i be right in saying that most people seem to prefer the sound of the 7520 over the 7510 ?
I realize that it is a dilemma, but the TC-7510 has won two awards since November. The choice comes down to budget and facilities required. Maybe the TC-7520 is under priced...


Stan

Labarum
06-03-2009, 00:41
I realize that it is a dilemma . . .

I am very happy with what I've got - a 7510 6:4.

But I haven't heard what I haven't got!

I am presently listening to

Radio Swiss Classic MP3 128
http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?id=s25582&Formats=mp3,wma,real&username=sampletime&PartnerId=16 d

And the pizzicato bass cellos line is amazing!

The higher bitrate radio stations can be even better - approaching 16/44.1 FLAC.

Tis amazing. I don't know what Stan did.

tizer2000uk
06-03-2009, 02:11
Stan I reckon having looked at the innards that the next step could be a seperate upgrade for the headphone amp along with some blackgates or nichicons and perhaps some burr browns in the sockets ;) For the purposes of upgrading, are the socketed opamps feeding both the headphone and aux out?

I showed one of the guys at work a pic of the inside and he immediately caught sight of the opamps and remarked that it was a good design to make so much of an opamp considered by many to be the weak link, something he said was usuallly attributable to designers not designing the supporting circuit properly.

tizer2000uk
06-03-2009, 02:22
Would i be right in saying that most people seem to prefer the sound of the 7520 over the 7510 ?

If headphones are your priority then definately, the headphone amp on the 7510 pales in comparison. If however you prefer your speakers then the 7510 might well be adequate as the sound is still very good, slightly thinner sounding and with a little less bass weight which I think for some music and setups might be preferable. My wife actually prefers the 7510 on the system downstairs through the speakers but loves the sound of the 7520 through my Grado's. My setup downstairs is a very modest affair in terms of cost and resolution and so those with more revealing setups will likely prefer the 7520 as you literally get far more music for your money.

Covenant
06-03-2009, 08:08
Would i be right in saying that most people seem to prefer the sound of the 7520 over the 7510 ?
I dont agree with the comments that the 7510 'will be adequate for most people' argument. If your on this forum then you already think about how good your system is and what you can do to improve it. So getting the 7510 is going to leave you dissatisfied. As I have just proved the resale value of Stan's products is excellent so upgrading is cheap and easy.
Without detracting at all from the 7510 (which I had for a year and loved) if your an audiophile you should go straight for the best.

Krisbee
08-03-2009, 12:41
I've just been re-reading this thread while listening to this Thursday's BBC3 broadcast of Handel's Acis and Galatea on my three day old TC-7520. A 192 bitrate 44.1 kHz mp3 file which sounds pretty good to me over usb form my PC.

May be things have gone a bit quiet here after the first flush of enthusiasm, but I just wanted to say how refreshing it is to find a forum where a sensible and informed discussion of this DAC has flourished.

This is in sharp contrast to another forum where I posted a message about the TC-7520 and was meet with hostility and accusation. I sincerely hope this will never be allowed to happen at AOS.

PS Thanks to lwd for coming to my defence, if he reads this he will know what I mean.

Chris.

StanleyB
08-03-2009, 17:56
This is in sharp contrast to another forum where I posted a message about the TC-7520 and was meet with hostility and accusation. I sincerely hope this will never be allowed to happen at AOS.

PS Thanks to lwd for coming to my defence, if he reads this he will know what I mean.
Welcome to the Beresford effect:eyebrows:. Every time I bring out a low cost solution I get attempts made to hack into my forum accounts and people posting as if they are me, my email account flooded with attacks etc., etc. I am accustomed to it by now:).

Stan

sanchezxxx
08-03-2009, 19:13
Hi All,

I am new to the headphone / digital hobby and this forum. I posted the below review on headfi but it was deleted due to me being new. A real shame as I thought they would have most interest due to the context. Anyway hope it helps anyone considering this DAC…

I purchased the 7520 a week ago for use with my newly acquired AKG 701’s, I have now had a chance to spend some proper time listening so here are my impressions.

I was looking for a dac + headphone amp that I could use with my AKG’s to get some peace and quiet in the office. Nothing says leave me to get on with my work like wearing big AKG’s or Sennhieser’s 

Initial Product Search:
I was looking at budget products under £200 like Style Audio Carat Peridot, Zero Dac or the Zhalou as an all in one solution but couldn’t find anywhere to demo the units in London. Was also looking at combo’s like the Cambridge Audio Dac and Project Headbox but the price increase on the CA unit knocked this way out of my budget. Was just about to take a punt on a cheap Peridot on ebay when I noticed that there was a new USB all in one DAC / Headphone amp from Beresford. I was wary of this due to the controversy on most forums about the 7510, components used and sound quality and WHIFI 5* review. Also I couldn’t be bothered with the hassle of posting it back and waiting for a refund if I didn’t like it. After a few years in this hobby I have now learnt to trust nothing but my ears and the recommendation of a few who’s opinion I have faith in; great press reviews and forum hyperbole have lead me to previous dogs such as QED Silver Anniversary XT amongst others. Found out through reading the forums that Beresford was based in London so emailed them to see if I could come and try out the unit and let my ears be the judge. Received an email from Stan saying no problem….

Initial listen:
Went round Stan’s with my AKG and received a demo of a fresh 7520 straight out of the box. Initially it had a very digital/solid state/detailed sound that was very different to my current set up. I quite liked it but it was ever so slightly harsh. Stan assured me that it would burn in after 20 hours or so and deliver a smoother sound. What interested me much more was that the unit had no issue whatsoever driving my AKG’s to a level loud enough to cause a real headache and even not burnt in it was showing good potential in the bass department. At this stage I was convinced that the unit was worth taking home for a more detailed listen and handed over my £170.

After burn in:
I left the 7520 connected to my laptop and Akg’s for 20 hours or so burn in and then re-evaluated. I was not so sure about the concept of burn in so did not have the headphones on my head during this time to ensure if I noticed a difference it was not just me readjusting to a new sound. There was a clear difference, the harshness had gone but the 7520 still retained good detail for my liking and was very musical. Bass on the AKG’s had also improved a lot. They sound great with both female vocals and electronica which are the main types of music I listen too, totally acceptable with hip hop too. I would say this combo is a must hear for any Kraftwerk, Massive attack and Air fans listening to their music in Flac or Lossless. Great dynamics and a deep but not overpowering bass. The 7520 does also make lower bitrate songs and internet radio sound better as per previous reports but the AKG’s can still be a little fussy.

With Creative Aurvana/Denon D1000:
I also have some Creative Aurvana headphones that are a Denon D1000 clone and would also highly recommend the 7520 for owners of either of these headphones. I never would have thought that such a cheap headphone could sound so good. The bass is immense and has that slam missing with the AKG’s for all bass heads out there. A good combo for anyone looking for a great cheap headphone setup that is happy playing any type of music at most bitrates.

Against other combos and through main rig:
I haven’t tested hundreds of competing products but can say this is much better than any creative / M-audio sound cards in the £80-150 range I have tried plugged into a range of headphones or my Musical Fidelity X-A1 / Tannoy R3’s. It also easily beats the sound of my Marantz CD6000KI player into hifi or headphones and this was a £600 player in its time with upgraded toroidal transformer and decent headphone out. While it can make the AKG’s go loud it doesn’t have anywhere near the control or bass that the 7520 delivers. Power and bass are much more greater than on the Pro-ject headbox which at £90 for the amp section only I feel is a fair product to compare to. Both DAC and headphone out is also better than my £1000 or so Pioneer VSX-AX5Ai-S. I apologise I do not have a more comprehensive list of products to compare it to.

Conclusion:
I am not so good or a major fan of the audiophile dictionary but can say I am very happy with the sound of the 7520 and would definitely recommend it, even more so for AKG and other headphone owners. To my ears it is detailed but still fun and musical with great bass and a powerful headphone amp.

What I love about this amp is its versatility. I have my DVD(2 channel setup with MF and Tannoy, not main AV rig with Pioneer), freeview box and laptop plugged into it and it gives me a major improvement in sound for all 3 sources. The SQ is great and I don’t think there is anything like it for those looking for a USB DAC + headphone amp with loads of inputs at anywhere near the price.

Also I would urge anyone considering the 7520 to ignore the reviews and controversy and just go and listen to the 7520 so you can make your decision on SQ alone. I nearly didn’t even demo it because of the controversy but I think anyone who chats to Stan for a few mins will realise he is passionate about hifi, his product and is clearly the designer. Although he is just one guy with no big marketing/pr dept. I am not one for politics but I have heard comments in other forums of people knocking the unit for various reasons and saying he is not the designer etc... I say forget these and just trust your ears.

theone999
08-03-2009, 19:33
May be things have gone a bit quiet here after the first flush of enthusiasm, but I just wanted to say how refreshing it is to find a forum where a sensible and informed discussion of this DAC has flourished.



Perhaps its all the happy owners who's posted intial impressions then just sat back and enjoyed it? If something was wrong with the DAC, then the post count would at least double lol, people tend to complain more.

Krisbee
08-03-2009, 22:25
A poor choice of opening words on my earlier post. You are absolutely right, just sit back and enjoy it.

An excellent, fair and balanced review by Sanchez.

kbuech
09-03-2009, 01:10
UPDATE TO MY PREVIOUS REVIEW

Hello all,

I was one of the first to review the TC-7520 on this forum, but my review was lost when the forums all crashed recently.

My 1st (of the 4 I eventually purchased) 7520 has been playing round-the-clock for over 200 hours hooked-up to my Mac computer in my office system.

I'm so impressed with this kit! I have been able to listen to digital music for hours on end now without fatiguing of the sound. Sort of like using my Linn LP12 turntable to listen to analog audio but not having to keep getting up to change the albums!:clap:

With my 7520 units in my bedroom system and HT systems, I have to be careful about the volume at which I'm listening. You see, I have VERY powerful and clean amplification in these systems and I think the 7520 is so low in distortion that I don't realize how loud it is until someone comes into the room and tries to talk to me, or I turn off the Hi-Fi and my ears are beginning to ring!:wow:

And the quality of reproduction of 128 kbps tracks I listen to at Pandora.com is astounding to me. I'm listening right now to Cat Stevens' "Peacetrain" at work (system 1 below) on my pandora.com "James Taylor" station, and it's just so very detailed and enjoyable to hear.

I'm a very satisfied customer.

Hope those comments help.

Kurt

Krisbee
09-03-2009, 15:24
UPDATE TO MY PREVIOUS REVIEW
I'm so impressed with this kit! I have been able to listen to digital music for hours on end now without fatiguing of the sound. Sort of like using my Linn LP12 turntable to listen to analog audio but not having to keep getting up to change the albums!:clap:

Kurt

Kurt,

Very interesting to hear the opinion of someone whose is using the TC-7520 in conjunction with powerful and quality amplification. Are you using anything special in the way of power sources for the TC-7520, or just the standard power plugs supplied by Mr.B?

kbuech
10-03-2009, 00:19
Kurt,

Very interesting to hear the opinion of someone whose is using the TC-7520 in conjunction with powerful and quality amplification. Are you using anything special in the way of power sources for the TC-7520, or just the standard power plugs supplied by Mr.B?


I'm using the stock power-supply provided by Stan for US 120 V.

However,

These are plugged into Furman power-conditioners: 2 with state-of the art filtering plus power factor correction, 1 with the same filtering, and one basic Furman unit.

Kurt

almamorphous
11-03-2009, 11:03
Hello,

does anyone know if it is possible to connect an ipod via USB to the TC-7520? Does one need a special docking station?

thanks

trailer
11-03-2009, 11:27
You'll only get analogue out from the iPod. You'll need the Wadia docking station.

StanleyB
11-03-2009, 13:20
One question I frequently get asked is whether it is possible to adjust the volume of the TC-7520 from the PC. What I have found out is that you can adjust the volume from within MediaMonkey if you are listening to the TC-7520 via USB.

STan

Labarum
11-03-2009, 14:27
The direct digital out from the iPod is locked - a licence fee has to be paid by a manufacturer to unlock and use the direct digital out.

There is open source firmware that can be loaded onto an iPod and I have heard those software coders may be working on accessing the direct digital out - it does, however mean that you would be, in effect, running a different Operation System in the iPod. Not iTunes, but something else which would work with open source codecs like FLAC and OGG.

Class
12-03-2009, 10:37
Not a review, I got my TC-7520 today and my initial listening is very promising, even without proper burning in.

I just wanted to say thanks to Stanley and to others that's considering this DAC, "yer in for a treat", as someone told me before I bought it :)

tizer2000uk
13-03-2009, 02:11
It's 2am and I badly need sleep but this dac keeps me here for just 'one more song'

Will have some Burr Brown OPA627's shortly to replace the 5532's, will let you all know how they sound.

StanleyB
13-03-2009, 07:51
Will have some Burr Brown OPA627's shortly to replace the 5532's, will let you all know how they sound.
The OPA627 is not a direct replacement for the 5532!
Try the OPA2134 or LM4562.

Stan

tizer2000uk
13-03-2009, 14:03
I would have thought Dual 627's per socket would be ok?

I have some LM4562's kicking around somewhere to test too, always thought the 5532 and the 4562 were very close in terms of quality, how did they sound to your ears Stan? Never heard the 2134 though.

StanleyB
13-03-2009, 14:33
I would have thought Dual 627's per socket would be ok?

I have some LM4562's kicking around somewhere to test too, always thought the 5532 and the 4562 were very close in terms of quality, how did they sound to your ears Stan? Never heard the 2134 though.
The LM4562 is far better than the 5532 in performance. Higher slew rate and lower distortion. Mind you, the 5532 situated towards the right side of the PCB (looking at it from the front), is probably left well alone.

Stan

kalozois100
13-03-2009, 15:30
The LM4562 is far better than the 5532 in performance. Higher slew rate and lower distortion. Mind you, the 5532 situated towards the right side of the PCB (looking at it from the front), is probably left well alone.

Stan
Hi all.
Anyone tried a Burson Discreet opamp on a Stan dac?? My friend has stuck one in his DacMagic and is now having multiple orgasms from the new sound. I haven't had time to pop round and have listen but from what he says he is getting unbelieveable audio now. Mind you it cost him a small fortune with buying it and paying an electrical engineer to fit it for him - and it goes against the ethos of the beresford being an affordable top Dac. But then again lobster with caviar every now and again is a necessary indulgence - and ofcourse some champagne to wash it down!! perhaps someone from here has no issue with costs and may want to try it in a Stan Dac so Stan can comment if one will fit in the Tc 7510/20. I'm personally very happy with the sound from the LM4562 . Anyway I ll keep you informed when i get round to having a listen to the Burson opamp ........

Labarum
13-03-2009, 15:34
All this talk of upgrades already.

Perhaps there is room for a 7520SE with all sensible upgrades applied.

A £50 premium?

How about it Stan?

Covenant
13-03-2009, 15:47
It does seem a bit premature Brian. I bet many 7520's are not burnt in yet.
I will get the better power supply first and let the modders fiddle around for a while until they area happy (if that ever happens)
Very pleased with the noises coming out of my system now.
Jerry

Labarum
13-03-2009, 15:51
It does seem a bit premature Brian.

O yes, but good ideas take a while to mature. :)

trailer
13-03-2009, 15:55
Like a fine wine.

leo
13-03-2009, 16:33
You see why I just stick with diy :lol: temptation to fiddle is too much:ner:

Regarding those Bursons modules, I wouldn't class them as suitable in the Beresford dac, reason being is that it wants at least +/-12v (+24v) on the supply, the single +10v isn't enough, it'll increase distortion

tizer2000uk
13-03-2009, 16:42
The problem with modding is knowing when to stop :)

The way the unit has been constructed gives Stan alot of flexibility for future upgrades. I reckon having an entry level unit all the way up to high end would be the way to go.

Anywhooo, I shall try the 4562 as I suppose a large part of the final sound has a lot to do with the supporting circuity, I last heard it in a modded cd player and in my X-Fi soundcard.

So the socketed opamp to the right of the case should be left alone?

Would love to hear a Burson, have heard good things about them.

kalozois100
13-03-2009, 16:43
All this talk of upgrades already.

Perhaps there is room for a 7520SE with all sensible upgrades applied.

A £50 premium?

How about it Stan?

Hello there Brian . When you coming over for a chilled Keo beer??
Stan has forseen the mod fever and provided opamp rolling for the TC-7520. Most kind of him to do so!! Hey Brian for many a dragon slayer dac is more than enough. i'm more than happy with the modded TC-7510. for a small minority, they don't want to slay the dragon but tame it, sit on its back and ride off into the sunset and towards audio heaven!! :) respect to all that push the boundaries just that bit further than others........

Burson op amp below:- Bold statement that kills all competition off. :eyebrows:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Burson-Audio-Single-Opamp-X2-Kills-OPA627-AD825-AD844_W0QQitemZ110337279525QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_C D_Players?hash=item110337279525&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177

Labarum
13-03-2009, 16:52
Hello there Brian . When you coming over for a chilled Keo beer??

I am still in Blitey, and I am glad it's raining in Cyprus - reservoirs up from 5% to 20% eh - I don't want any water rationing when I get to Nicosia. We have our own well, but we can't drink it!

And as to Keo. Na. Never. No one has every convinced me that alcohol isn't anything but what it is - the product of rotten fruit and vegetables - yuk. It's only fit for stripping paint or cleaning the drains.

I'll stick to lemonade made from the trees in my own garden.

leo
13-03-2009, 16:53
Whats the supply voltage to the op-amp in the TC-7520? seriously guys if you run one of those discrete op-amps with less than 24v it'll sound S**t

StanleyB
13-03-2009, 18:46
Whats the supply voltage to the op-amp in the TC-7520? seriously guys if you run one of those discrete op-amps with less than 24v it'll sound S**t

Spot on. I got a pair of those Bunson chips but they sound even worse than the 5532 in the TC-7520.

Stan

kalozois100
13-03-2009, 20:00
Spot on. I got a pair of those Bunson chips but they sound even worse than the 5532 in the TC-7520.

Stan
I think its Burson. Saying bunson reminds me bunson burner in A level chemistry all over again. Gulp.... 22 years ago!!!!

Then its not for the TC-7510/20 series. if someone wants to spend a 100 on an opamp for their beresford dac what other options do they have?? Afterall you have provided for opamp rolling so let the rolling begin???

You see Stan i have an agenda. i ll come clean like an honest fellow should. I'm not going through again what i had to with the TC-7510. i don't have the talent to modify(but can very easily f**k up anything you like) . If I'm gonna get a TC-7520 its gonna be from you with all mod cons thrown in( with extra price ofcourse) . Brian is right when he suggests a different price range according to the modded specification... A few guys walk into a bar one wants a brunette, another wants a blonde, but in the end the best lookers cost you most in the end!!( heart and money that is!!)

kalozois100
14-03-2009, 18:30
Good evening all,
I went over to my friends to have a listen to his modified dacmagic with burson discreet opamps(Dual in the case of magic). Hes had about 50 hours of burn in time so far....
It was certainly an improvement to his original opamp that came with the dac. He was using B&W 601s and an arcam A70 amp. The sound seemed at first similar to what i'm getting out of the modded TC-7510. After much listening with various types of music, classical, jazz, progressive rock etc i was unable to have a direct comparison to my beresford as i did not take it with me but i did have the feeling that i wished i was back home listening to my dac but couldn't quite put my finger on the reason. When i did get home and put same music on i found it to be more inviting/ involving than the magic but having similar clarity , soundstage and fidelity . This means that the modded TC-7510 IMH(personal)O outranked this modded magic. This for me is one hell of an achievement from a financial point of view . My TC-7510 with mods cost me 140(inc. black gate caps!!) pounds vs modded dacmagic at 350 pounds.( I left out the costs for the electrical engineer as mine was done for free but my friend had to pay for his mods by a professional uping his costs further from 350 ). The National semiconductor opamp I am now using in the TC-7510 is unbelievable value and performance and i now disagree with burson statements that it kills off the competition. Perhaps it is a different in the case when equipment used is in the thousands price bracket range but it was not the case in this class of equipment used. Another variable i neglected to mention is I now use a maplin p/s whereas my friend uses the p/s that came with his magic.
I think I now finally understand discussions I have read in past on various sites on the topics upsampling processing vs non upsampling processing. Here is the only other area i can put my finger on what may explain why i prefer my Dac to the magic. If it was better I'd say it. And the magic did sound better when my TC-7510 was a 6/3 version. Its alot easier to understand in practice when it is heard rather than trying to make sense of it in theory from written articles. And yet again it comes down to personal taste as my friend probably totally disagrees with my comments above. Such is the beauty of democracy!!

StanleyB
14-03-2009, 18:48
I think I now finally understand discussions I have read in past on various sites on the topics upsampling processing vs non upsampling processing.
You mean oversampling versus upsampling...
On the Norwegian forum hifisentralen quite few people have tried the DM against the TC-7520. Sales to Norway have been very rewarding of late;).

Stan

kalozois100
14-03-2009, 19:32
:
You mean oversampling versus upsampling...
On the Norwegian forum hifisentralen quite few people have tried the DM against the TC-7520. Sales to Norway have been very rewarding of late;).

Stan

Ah yes, over vs up.......
Stan if there was a forum on the remotest part of the planet I do believe that you'd find it:lol:
Clever lot the Norwegians must be all that omega 3 in the fish they're eating. :eyebrows:

kbuech
20-03-2009, 19:30
I am still in Blitey, and I am glad it's raining in Cyprus - reservoirs up from 5% to 20% eh - I don't want any water rationing when I get to Nicosia. We have our own well, but we can't drink it!

And as to Keo. Na. Never. No one has every convinced me that alcohol isn't anything but what it is - the product of rotten fruit and vegetables - yuk. It's only fit for stripping paint or cleaning the drains.

I'll stick to lemonade made from the trees in my own garden.


Hey Brian,

Long time no post by me. Glad to hear of another non-drinking audiophile. I'm sure that there are many of us out there. We're a tought lot to please, I think, as sober I find I'm much more discerning in my listening to kit.

I finally have my main system up to warp-speed, now that I've added the Martin Logan Descent subwoofer. This unit transformed the sound of my multi-channel system. I'm often listening to Apple Lossless tracks though the Beresford 7520 then converted via DSP to Neural THX 5.1 multichannel using my Onkyo PR SC-885 preamp/processor.

Have a fine weekend!

Kurt

Labarum
20-03-2009, 19:52
another non-drinking audiophile.

Hey, gin is probably quite good for degreasing CDs - but since they never come out of their cases these days . . .

kbuech
21-03-2009, 07:55
Hey, gin is probably quite good for degreasing CDs - but since they never come out of their cases these days . . .

LOL!!:lol::lol:

prenzlberger
16-05-2009, 20:07
I can reference a number of "eureka moments".

One in a HiFi shop a number of years ago - Quad Electrostatics and Cello Music. Before the music started I heard the resonance of the cello as the cellist picked it up. Aha! That's just how it is.
...... One day I will have a pair of electrostatics.

Hi Brian!
You inadvertently provided me with a Eureka-Moment when you described yours.

Some years ago (I was still living in Canada, having moved there from Germany at 19), I owned a very simple and elegant system: A Revox B226 going through Counterpoint hybrids into a pair of the special reinforced QUAD Freds.

I had known that this was "my" sound during the first few bars of Julian Lloyd Webber's rendition of Elgar's Cello Concerto! Goose bumbs. I had never heard recorded music sound so compelling. The speakers literally disappeared.

Now I live in Berlin with my teenage daughter (whom I had given a cello at 3 - yes, you can laugh! - but who finally decided on the saxophone instead. Nice, too...) ;)

Instead of in a house, we now live in an apartment, with neighbours, who wouldn't appreciate having to share my lust for Ludwig at 2am. So, I have been looking for something, which comes close to the QUADs ... and I have found it: A pair of STAX 404 electrostatic headphones with the small amplifier. (My music server is a MacBookPro.)

I had recently tried a Corda Aria DAC/Amp with AKG 701 phones. Not quite there yet. The AGKs are transparent, allright, but they also seem to have a hole in the middle - spacially! - which especially with concertos tends to push the soloist too far back.

Enter the STAX, which I found used (but still with a year of warranty) for €450.
Much better.

What brought me here was the belief that the transducers (be they speakers or phones) account for perhaps the biggest bang for the buck.
At the other end of the chain, the source represents the next challenge, and so I was looking for a reasonably priced DAC, in order to move the conversion off the MacBookPro.

Enter the 7520, which (after a few mails with Stan) I purchased today from the inofficial distributor in Germany, who is somehow related to the manufacturer. Anyway, I drove the 40km from Berlin, picked it up .... and then spent 2 hours re-exploring my music library.

Right out of the box, this little item really sounds fabulous. Wide open, soloists and vocalists clearly positioned, tight enough bass for classical music, and completely in accord with the STAX' innate transparency and musicality.

I admit to not having listened to any of the recent €1000 units. Back in Canada, I had auditioned a Cyrus, but the Revox seemed just fine. And now, my priorities have changed.

But perhaps the trick is to just find components which augment each other, which the STAX and the 7520 do.
I have found sonic bliss for €650.There is still the opportunity of uograding those OpAmps, and of course, the lure of a STAX Tube-Amp in the skies..... ;)

But I know what good sound is, and that I have found.

So, Brian, your comments kind of made me register here, communicate with Stan and become a customer... all in 2 days.
Thanks!

By the way, I really like the tone among members here!

Regards from Berlin!

Covenant
16-05-2009, 21:23
What a nice post from Prenzlberger-hope its the first of many.
Upgrading the op-amps in the 7520 is a MUST! A significant improvement for next to nothing. If you only listen to headphones you only need to buy one. There is lots of information here and people to help if you get stuck.

Labarum
16-05-2009, 21:41
I have been deprived recently.

Been in Cyprus to sort out the house I will retire to in the autumn.

We had hoped to install and ADSL connection in the house very quickly, but it didn't happen. Bureaucracy!!

I took with me a laptop and a Squeezebox boom hoping for my favourite UK and European radio stations and the ability to play my FLACs.

But I was reduced to silence and a tranny!

Ah well back to my Quart Speakers, Quad Amp and Standac. I can breath again.

I have been wondering about some decent headphones, and looked longing at the Stax for years, but they are awfully expensive.

Are they really that much better?

DSJR
16-05-2009, 21:58
I'm not sure they are these days to be honest. Stax is now a "name" with a great reputation and cachet, but IMO that's where it ends unless you can get some "earspeakers" used at a good price. The UA7 tonearm was a goodie though as I recall, although little else of theirs ever came over to the UK IIRC.

Labarum
16-05-2009, 22:04
Where would you be looking for headphones, Dave?

prenzlberger
16-05-2009, 22:56
I have been wondering about some decent headphones, and looked longing at the Stax for years, but they are awfully expensive.

Are they really that much better?

Yes, they are in the same manner that the QUADs back then captured you. And we both know that many people would consider the QUADs gutless .... depends on the kind of music one listens to.

I don't know if you ever had a chance to observe electrostats "at work". That sheet of sandwich wrap just kind of trembles .... just wonderful! Ripples instead of a piston pushing and pouncing.

The STAX offer the same and because it happens (or doesn't) so close to your ear-drums, the effect it very gentle.
I am 62 and have my own permanent sound-track called tinitus. (Too many miles with the open sunroof buffeting.)

With dynamic headphones - even something as transparent as the 701s - the pressure was quite uncomfortable. None of that with the STAX. Just music. Unfortunately, the German health plan doesn't cover them as therapeutic devices. ;)

Clearly, they don't have that bottom end grunt that lovers of rock may desire.
But for anything with recognizable instruments and spaces (including the opera stage), the STAX are in a class by themselves.
The AKGs have an initially impressive holographic quality, until you come to feel that the orchestra seems to wrap around your head.
The STAX place the sound a tad further forward, almost out of and in front of your head.

You can get good used Lamda Pros (or 303) phones on the Bay for little more than €150 and the amps start at about the same level. Really, that's not unreasonable for something, which absolutely places you into the top end of things. (Try that with speakers!)

Takes a while to understand how the system works, with all the various models. My amp is the small SRD-XPro, which can also be used as a mobile with batteries. I just hook it up to the fixed output of the 7520 and regulate the volume from the STAX amp. Works like a charm.

If the QUADs with Cello still rank so highly with you, just try some STAX out somewhere.

prenzlberger
16-05-2009, 23:11
Stax is now a "name" with a great reputation and cachet, but IMO that's where it ends .....

Well, that reputation had to be and was earned.
I understand that they didn't have as much success in the UK as on the Continents (either side of the Pond), which may make the used market somewhat smaller in the UK. But we live in a global economy.

When I look at the pricing of Grados or the rumoured Sennheiser 800, I find even the new STAX not out of line.
You can get a complete 3030 Set (consisting of the new Lamda 303 phones and a very decent amp) for around €650 from Japan, with full warranty. You'd pay that much for the top models from anyone else, as long as you count in a good headphome amp.
Sure, if you opt for the full-bore Omega2/TubeAmp combo, you're in small-car territory, but that's the case with several top-end audio products, isn't it?

For classical and un-plugged music, there's nothing quite like electrostatics.
But I don't want to gush ... ;)

foxysounds
17-05-2009, 16:52
To get back on topic, I just thought I'd pop by and add my name to the list of users more than happy with the TC-7520.

This is my first external DAC so I haven't compared it with any others. The only comparison I have is with the built-in DACs in my Marantz PM6000OSE CD player and my DAB radio. The TC-7520 wins comfortably in both cases. Bass has more clarity, there is more width to the sound and (particularly in the case of the DAB radio) voices sound fuller and richer.

The DAC is connected to my CDP with a Mark Grant Belden digital coax cable and to my DAB radio via a QED optical cable. I also tried connecting the CDP to the DAC with the optical cable but didn't notice any difference.

I also have it connected up to my PC but haven't really used it much in that configuration - not enough to comment on. I have just ordered some new PC components which will hopefully give me a significant upgrade and also quieten my PC down a bit so that the noise of the PC doesn't obscure all the detail in the music so perhaps I'll give it a proper test after upgrading. I also plan to try it in my home studio at some point in the near-future when the pressure's off a little at work.

I joined this forum to get some advice on a completely unrelated matter and ended up reading so much about the Beresford DACs that I decided to give one a try. I'm very happy I spent the money.

Simon.

China Groove
21-05-2009, 00:53
First let me say how informative the forum is from a newbie to this - but not to Hi-Fi. I've just ordered Stan's latest goodie which should be on it's way to China as i write.
My question is how to rig up with Airport express?
I'll be using Dell laptop running i-tunes and want to stream to 7520 which will then feed into Ming Da valve pre and power amps.
Can anybody explain best way?
Stan's been very helpful and suggested I post in here to sound out the collective wisdom!
Thanks in advance

trailer
21-05-2009, 06:14
You'll need a miniTOS to Toslink cable for a start.

The rest is just a case of setting up the AE. With a mac it's straightforward, with Windows it's a bit more challenging using the AE utility.

Labarum
21-05-2009, 06:30
I use a Squeezebox for the same purpose.

Isn't it just a matter of taking the optical out from the Airport Express to the 7520?

If you do not need to switch between the 7520's analogue output and other analogue sources, you may want to experiment with leaving the valve pre-amp out of circuit - drive the valve power amp directly from the variable output of the 7520 - and run with the iTunes and Windows volume controls set to maximum.

You could go one stage further and drive the power amp from the fixed output of the 7520, but you would be need to be very sure your software digital volume controls in iTunes and in Windows were not likely to mis-behave and deliver a dangerous pulse to your amp and speakers.

The output of the Airport Express would need to be well matched to the input sensitivity of the amp so that you did not need to use more than (say) 20% attenuation or you might hear some degradation in sound.

It would be safer to leave an analogue volume control in circuit - either the one in the pre-amp or that in the 7520.

If I re-rig and drive my Quad Amp from the fixed out of my 7510 relying on the Squeezebox digital volume control, the sound is marginally cleaner, but I lose the ability to control the volume of other digital sources. And, of course, the 7520 is reputed to have better analogue outputs than the 7510, so the difference should be even less that the very marginal difference I hear.

Sorry if that is too much detail - just plug in and enjoy!

alexdodis
21-05-2009, 07:11
China Goove: This set-up is very easy, you will need the "monster cable" set for the airport express ($30), of which you will use the toslink connector and the optionally the power cord extension. Then you will have to set-up the airport express using the CD on your MAC as a client for your wireless network. I-Tunes recognizes the airport express automatically.

At home, I have a similar set-up using a PC, for those that may be interested, which is simple, cheap, has bit-perfect sound quality, and avoids being an Apple slave: I use MediaMonkey or WinAmp as the sound server. You will need a plug-in called "Remote Speakers Output" by Eric Miles ( you can find on WinAmp site for 30$) to connect WinAmp to the Airport Express. The rest is as above.

Alex Dodis

Dougr33
21-05-2009, 15:44
You could go one stage further and drive the power amp from the fixed output of the 7520, but you would be need to be very sure your software digital volume controls in iTunes and in Windows were not likely to mis-behave and deliver a dangerous pulse to your amp and speakers.

The output of the Airport Express would need to be well matched to the input sensitivity of the amp so that you did not need to use more than (say) 20% attenuation or you might hear some degradation in sound.

It would be safer to leave an analogue volume control in circuit - either the one in the pre-amp or that in the 7520.

A very good post, but I'd like to add my 2 cents: This just isn't worth the risk of something happening (on a reboot or crash) to the software volume setting, if matched with a superloud passage, damaging your speakers (as your amp will now be "turned up to 11"). And I think it's generally acknowledged that there's "some" degradation of quality, perhaps tiny, with the software volume use.

China Groove
22-05-2009, 00:28
Thanks to the replies - very hepful. I plan to leave the Ming Da pre-amp in the circuit, as i have spent a considerable time tube rolling it to get the sound I like, so will slot the 7520 in and link to the AE to play the PC based music and don't want to mess up what I have! I also have a Shanling TD 100 valve output selected played again tube rolled, but will experiment in feeding that into the 7520 to see what sonic advantages there are.
Stan tells me the unit is on the way and I'll burn it in when set up and post in a week or so.

twelvebears
22-05-2009, 14:55
Just to leap back to the original thread for a mo, I've spent the whole day listening to my new 7520 which Susy bought me as a B'day present (yes, she really understands me) and it's definitely brought a significant improvement over using the analogue outputs from my Apple TV.

As ATV doesn't claim any great audio credentials in the way Squeezebox does, I was expecting that bypassing the analogue section would be worthwhile but it's still nice when it actually turns out that way...

Much improved soundstage, imaging and generally just a lot more musical. :-)

China Groove
28-05-2009, 09:36
Stan's little marvel arrived in China in good order and record time and has been wired in to Shanling CD 100 via co-ax to give it a go. First impressions on the CD are a wider maybe brighter soundstage, with more detail and a very engaging sound - this is straight out of the box.
PC based music (apple loss less) via Aiport express has had a very quick listen, but very impressive. BUT problems with a windows based PC talking to AE have postponed further listening for the moment - if anyone has any fixes woudl be glad to hear them!
On an intial listen it looks like the 7520 will become a favourite piece of kit and great service from Stan!!!

Covenant
06-06-2009, 12:43
Dont know if this has been posted elsewhere but there is a review of the 7520 in June's Affordable Audio. The reviewer comments that its the best DAC he has heard under $1000 and mentions that it needs time to break in which is fair enough.
He put this comment in:

'Because the op-amps are socketed in the 7250 (like the 7150), they are easy to swap out, just as long as you don’t mind voiding your warranty in the process. While there are some very enthusiastic success stories about these modifications in the forums, I think the unit is outstanding in its stock condition. If any of my home renovation projects have taught me anything, it is that sometimes things are best left alone.'

So he has had a bad experience and tries to put others off doing what was intended in the original design-I dont agree and think Stan should fire a letter back about the design philosophy and correct the socket comment about the 7510.

Beresford_NA
08-06-2009, 03:38
For a review of the Beresford TC-7520, please see the June 2009 issue at:

http://www.affordableaudio.org/ (http://www.affordableaudio.org/)

According to the reviewer, Lorin Elias:

"In terms of sound quality, it is the best DAC I have heard under $1000.
... a very easy recommendation."

China Groove
08-06-2009, 08:57
The 7520 has now been burnt in for around 30 hours and so I'd add my impressions to those that have appeared elsewhere in this forum.
Firstly I'd like to give Stan a big thanks for being so helpful and responsive and for great shipping and service. The unit arrived here in Shanghai within three days and was pressed into service right away.
I have the 7520 wired into a Shanling CD100 via coax and optically into an airport express that is driven by a Dell PC containing my 800+ loss less burnt CD collection. The 7520 feeds into my Ming Da extensively tube rolled pre-amp which in turn drives Ming Da Valve monoblocks into Dynaudio Focus 220 floorstanders.
I have burnt the 7520 in for around 30 hours and conducted extensive listening on a variety of musical tastes with an emphasis on Jazz and Rock.
I was previously very happy with the Shanling sound - very laid back and melodic and thus the sternest test was to switch between the Shanling DAC and the 7520 fed unit.
On Van Morrison Philosophers Stone the 7520 really shines with a level of detail and top that is not there via the Shanling - this is apparent on other reference tracks I use with extended bass and sweet treble, precise instrument positioning and soundstage and a very engaging musical and non-tiring sound.
Computer fed source via the AE is equally good and I'm hard pressed to notice which is playing. Given the added convenience of controlling the music library via i-pod I now have audiophile quality PC generated music which is what it is all about.
So in short 7520 - very, very good!!

StanleyB
08-06-2009, 09:15
Computer fed source via the AE is equally good and I'm hard pressed to notice which is playing. Given the added convenience of controlling the music library via i-pod I now have audiophile quality PC generated music which is what it is all about.
I have mentioned on my site and in various topics that the TC-75xx was given added design consideration for PC based music reproduction. Quite a few people have questioned that any such thing was possible, but I suspect that is because no other DAC has managed to make PC music finally come to life in the way that the TC-75xx does.

Stan

China Groove
09-06-2009, 01:15
Stan I could not agree more!

jandl100
11-06-2009, 08:45
My latest attempt to ditch the silly Beresford DAC cheapo toy has failed.

A £1.9k Perpetual Technology 3-box DAC combo has bitten the dust and I have gratefully returned to a Beresford 7520.

When will I learn that the Beresford DAC just hits that spot for me? :)

Previous failed attempts have included a £3.5k Audio Synthesis DAX Decade and a £1.5k Musical Fidelity TriVista 21, among many others. Stan's finest beats the lot as far as I am concerned!

Honestly, how embarassing it is to have £6k speakers a £4k power amp a £2k pre-amp and a £200 DAC. :scratch: :mental: