View Full Version : Yanks gun fun.....again
the engine
24-08-2012, 14:06
I see New Yorks partially at a standstill .
More gun fun !
Must be great....go to see the Empire state and end up taken out for your trouble !
Surely.... ( excuse my ignorance then you can inform me ) ...Surely there is a law against carrying in a city centre ?
If not it doesn't seem like rocket science .
Wakefield Turntables
24-08-2012, 15:07
I deplore guns.
Surely there is a law against carrying in a city centre ?
Since when did a law against something stop anyone anywhere in the world from breaking it ;)
It would be nice if it did, but unfortunately that's not the world we live in.
Since when did a law against something stop anyone anywhere in the world from breaking it ;)
It would be nice if it did, but unfortunately that's not the world we live in.
There is a place that is gun free here in the U.S.
There are more murders,and violent rapes there each day than any where else in the world.
Pick the U.S. prison of your choice.
hating guns is just plain stupid and makes as much sense as hating 5 gallon buckets.
As more kids drowned to death in 5 gallon buckets each your than are killed by guns and don't get me started on traffic deaths.
Guns are a useful tool and nothing more than that.
It's bad human beings that are the problem and blaming a big hunk of metal for anything is just plain dumb as hell.
Personal respectability is the key,I grew up around guns, and used to shoot 3 position rifle matches,hunted and was a range master for some years our range opened in 1903 and never had an injury till after the year 2000 when a drug user tried to steal a members match rifle at gun point,that drug users life came to an end shortly after.
I'm glad I wasn't there that day .My point is most gun owners are great people 99.9% it's that small evil minority that would just as soon bash your head in with a bat to get what they want.
I'm glad I live in a small city where police response is pretty good,but in Sacramento it can take at least 30 min.
Wouldn't you feel better about protecting your love ones if some one broke into your house with a 12 gauge shot gun or a lamp from the bed stand and a phone with the police 45 min. out and on another call?
Reid Malenfant
24-08-2012, 20:14
There is a place that is gun free here in the U.S.
There are more murders,and violent rapes there each day than any where else in the world.
Pick the U.S. prison of your choice.
hating guns is just plain stupid and makes as much sense as hating 5 gallon buckets.
As more kids drowned to death in 5 gallon buckets each your than are killed by guns and don't get me started on traffic deaths.
Guns are a useful tool and nothing more than that.
It's bad human beings that are the problem and blaming a big hunk of metal for anything is just plain dumb as hell.
Indeed :)
Guns don't kill people, people kill people!
Guns don't kill people, people kill people!
It's not dogs either - I think you'll find it's "wabbits" that kill people.
0X6N3z1RVgo
Reid Malenfant
24-08-2012, 20:35
:eyebrows:
Say it with music matey ;)
_uluboLxl7A
Guns don't kill people, people kill people!
Indeed Mark - we had three unconnected murders in a week recently in sunny sleepy Bournemouth, only one was a gun. The other two were knives and one poor victim was actually beheaded. Bet nobody here heard about them though, but a shooting in New York is headline news for some reason :scratch:
Reid Malenfant
24-08-2012, 20:46
Precisely, it the human that used the tool.
There was some poor Russian guy (65 years old) murdered recently by a 26 year old woman. She couldn't manage to strangle him with her bare hands, so she took off her bra & strangled him with that :mental:
All because he wouldn't lend her & her boyfriend any money for booze :doh:
Would be a lot less murders without them though.
Reid Malenfant
24-08-2012, 20:48
Would be a lot less murders without them though.
I doubt that very much indeed, if there is the will, then there is a way...
Would be a lot less murders without them though.
Nope, flat out don't agree with that at all ..... sorry (unless you are including military conflict in the equation?).
Most murders are domestic and the weapon of choice is a knife or other blade, bare hands are used a lot too.
USA firearm murders per 100,000 2.85
Uk Firearm murders per 100,000 0.073
Of course not that cut and dry.
Wonder why the uk is so much lower?
USA firearm murders per 100,000 2.85
Uk Firearm murders per 100,000 0.073
Of course not that cut and dry.
Wonder why the uk is so much lower?
:lol:, I just knew someone would go off and Google - you think that statistic (if correct) would change much without guns? Nada.....
Reid Malenfant
24-08-2012, 21:19
Of course not that cut and dry.
Wonder why the uk is so much lower?
Probably because there are less guns in circulation in the UK... But are you suggesting that the gun aimed & fired itself? :scratch: :confused:
:rfl:
No, there was a person doing it... If they didn't use a gun, they'd have used something else...
What's the TOTAL murders per 100,000 for each, not just firearms (which will always be far higher in the US due to legal ownership!)?
Hard to argue with facts though.
Probably because there are less guns in circulation in the UK... But are you suggesting that the gun aimed & fired itself? :scratch: :confused:
:rfl:
No, there was a person doing it... If they didn't use a gun, they'd have used something else...
Oh really thanks for letting me know.
Maybe if the us had the sense to make guns illegal to buy over the counter it may just change something.
So you really think that the uk murders wouldn't go up if tescos started selling them.:mental:
Reid Malenfant
24-08-2012, 21:22
Hard to argue with facts though.
What facts? That the USA has legal gun possession?
Do you want to ban all knives including cutlery in case some arsehole stabs you? :lol:
So what are you saying, the totals would drastically change if you took guns out of the equation? You are wrong fella, sorry. Just those three I quoted, two were domestic murders with a knife, the third was a drug gangland killing with a handgun (head-shot execution). You think those weekly statistics would have been any different without a firearm? That guy was going to be dead whatever, so without guns we would have had three knife killings that week - the weapon does not matter, if someone is going to kill somebody they find a way, trust me I know.
The trouble is Joe public has a very distorted view as gun crime hits the headlines, but murders go on every single day in the UK, but never hit the press - but if a gun is used, its sensationalised and what follows is a public outcry against firearms. Like I said who knew about the three murders in a week in Bournemouth? The press distort the view and Mark got it right, people kill people.
Would be a lot less murders without them though.
nope,
the murder rate is not connected to any type of weapons.
Intent is how ever!
If possible to uninvent the gun swords and knifes would take the place of them.
Guns weren't around when Vlad the impalor killed over 60,000 in Eroupe.
in the 1520's at that time the population of France was around 14,000 to give you a sense of scale.
I would be more concerned with the economy.
Reid Malenfant
24-08-2012, 21:31
So hows about we ban baseball bats, hammers, cars etc...
All these have been used as weapons ;)
Just remember though, it was the human that used them for a murderous purpose that made these things into headlines.
Tools don't kill people, people use tools to kill people!
With less tools available they'd find another way...
Nope your all right the uk murder statistics would be exactly the same if we are all armed with guns.
Nope your all right the uk murder statistics would be exactly the same if we are all armed with guns.
You are missing the point entirely :doh:
Anyway, nuff said I'm off to watch a movie and slurp some scotch ;)
Rare Bird
24-08-2012, 21:34
I love & peace i don't want violence man..
Wakefield Turntables
24-08-2012, 21:36
nope,
the murder rate is not connected to any type of weapons.
Intent is how ever!
If possible to uninvent the gun swords and knifes would take the place of them.
Guns weren't around when Vlad the impalor killed over 60,000 in Eroupe.
in the 1520's at that time the population of France was around 14,000 to give you a sense of scale.
I would be more concerned with the economy.
Guns have been around many hundred of years before 1520. The chinese invented gun powder and used it to power arrows etc. Da Vinci worked upon war machines for the various nobles of Italy, many of his designs were advances from the work of the Chinese. So your argument falls down a little my friend! Guns have always been used for one thing, DEATH. You can dress your argument up as much as you want but guns suck, period (to use an American term)
Reid Malenfant
24-08-2012, 21:37
Nope your all right the uk murder statistics would be exactly the same if we are all armed with guns.
Stu, if I could legally own a gun in the UK I'd be more likely to blow my own brains out than kill anyone :eyebrows:
It is down to the individual, the person! I have no wish to harm anyone, only a person that wishes to harm another is ever going to do it... If they wish to do so then any tool could be used. Like I say, wanna ban hammers (Peter Sutcliffe)...
Think about it ;)
Nope your all right the uk murder statistics would be exactly the same if we are all armed with guns.
True, there was a time in England when people had them and the country was better off crime wise for it.
With freedom comes irresponsibility, and trading freedom for saftey just makes you a irresponsible slave not able to be trusted to protect your self.
Stu, if I could legally own a gun in the UK I'd be more likely to blow my own brains out than kill anyone :eyebrows:
It is down to the individual, the person! I have no wish to harm anyone, only a person that wishes to harm another is ever going to do it... If they wish to do so then any tool could be used. Like I say, wanna ban hammers (Peter Sutcliffe)...
Think about it ;)
No, you have common sense, gun saftey is not rocket science.
In one day I could teach you not only how to properly handle and maintain a fire arm but also get you hitting center mass on a life size target.
True, there was a time in England when people had them and the country was better off crime wise for it.
With freedom comes irresponsibility, and trading freedom for saftey just makes you a irresponsible slave not able to be trusted to protect your self.
Would you prefer to live in the US without guns for all?
Reid Malenfant
24-08-2012, 21:43
No, you have common sense, gun saftey is not rocket science.
In one day I could teach you not only how to properly handle and maintain a fire arm but also get you hitting center mass on a life size target.
I'm very good with a bow & arrow....
Or at least I used to be when I was at school & tried it out at the East Of England Show :)
:eyebrows:
Would you prefer to live in the US without guns for all?
Hell No!
I'd like to live in the U.S. where all people respected life.
And gangs where not educated and recruited in our prison system.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens have stopped a hell of alot of crimes here.
Our crime rate would be staggering if gangs knew every house they wanted to rob was unarmed.
Guns have been around many hundred of years before 1520. The chinese invented gun powder and used it to power arrows etc. Da Vinci worked upon war machines for the various nobles of Italy, many of his designs were advances from the work of the Chinese. So your argument falls down a little my friend! Guns have always been used for one thing, DEATH. You can dress your argument up as much as you want but guns suck, period (to use an American term)
If it comes to my family's death or several gang members,and at the end of the day my family lives.
My gun has done the job it was made for. Death happens!
Death Sucks, but being able to protect your self and family dose NOT! We are never going to have a perfect world,there will always be evil people in it.
Your Utopia isn't going to happen so be for warned and for armed.
I have a challenge if you really feel your safer with out guns, come to Oakland or Ritchmand Ca. and put a big sign in your window ( THIS HOUSE IS GUN FREE).
You will be robbed,raped and maybe murdered before the week is out.
Reid Malenfant
24-08-2012, 22:03
:lol: Probably true Geoff :eek:
Here they are just afraid of the 6ft 2" 200lbs nutcase that lives on the corner :rolleyes:
Not quite the same thing...
:lol: Probably true Geoff :eek:
Here they are just afraid of the 6ft 2" 200lbs nutcase that lives on the corner :rolleyes:
Not quite the same thing...
The U.S. has an open boarder with Mexico, we have imported Russian and Asian gangs not to mention black gangs (Bloods and Crypts) also the Nortanios and Sorinios. These are gangs you join by killing some one. Blood in ,Blood out.
It is not safe in the U.S. the rule of law is broken here.
And police can't do much for fear of being fired and prosecuted for a hate crime if the gang member is other than white.
Reid Malenfant
24-08-2012, 22:16
The U.S. has an open boarder with Mexico, we have imported Russian and Asian gangs not to mention black gangs (Bloods and Crypts) also the Nortanios and Sorinios. These are gangs you join by killing some one. Blood in ,Blood out.
It is not safe in the U.S. the rule of law is broken here.
And police can't do much for fear of being fired and prosecuted for a hate crime if the gang member is other than white.
Mmmmm, sounds like the UK, just read Europe instead of Mexico.
Maybe not as bad as your way Jeff (apologies - wrong ealier :doh:), but it still doesn't put a smile on your face :eyebrows:
Why does this come to mind:
"The country where men and men......and so are the women" I dunno, it just sounds so cowboy all these guns. I've been the US a fair bit though of course it's nothing like growing up and living there. The coasts seem quite normal to UK standards, the silicon valley types aren't so much the gun owners. It was Michigan where folk became quite different, I expect "middle America" is different to the coasts. A factory manager proudly told me how his wife could kill and skin a deer...then he said what a woman. I'm sure he was right!
Why does this come to mind:
"The country where men and men......and so are the women" I dunno, it just sounds so cowboy all these guns. I've been the US a fair bit though of course it's nothing like growing up and living there. The coasts seem quite normal to UK standards, the silicon valley types aren't so much the gun owners. It was Michigan where folk became quite different, I expect "middle America" is different to the coasts. A factory manager proudly told me how his wife could kill and skin a deer...then he said what a woman. I'm sure he was right!
Have you been to Compton?
L.A.
Even San Fransico is being affected by the Nortanios.
Last week a Gang member hanged him self from our play ground structure before school started,I was there and dealt with keeping the kids away from the body.
link. http://www.fox40.com/news/headlines/ktxl-body-found-on-schools-playground-20120814,0,5664912.story
This guy was a really bad dude and a san fran norte.
I think where easy availability of guns does make a differences is where your average family bloke just looses it. With a gun he can take out several people. Gang stuff will happen no matter what the laws are. There are so many guns in the Us that nothing will change it now, even if they were banned.
I think where easy availability of guns does make a differences is where your average family bloke just looses it. With a gun he can take out several people. Gang stuff will happen no matter what the laws are. There are so many guns in the Us that nothing will change it now, even if they were banned.
It is not often a family guy goes off and starts offing people.
and compared to crime prevented it's a good trade off.
Have you been to Compton?
L.A.
Even San Fransico is being affected by the Nortanios.
Last week a Gang member hanged him self from our play ground structure before school started,I was there and dealt with keeping the kids away from the body.
link. http://www.fox40.com/news/headlines/ktxl-body-found-on-schools-playground-20120814,0,5664912.story
This guy was a really bad dude.
No I haven't and of course there are rough areas on the coasts too but they tend not to have too many silicon valley people living there. The UK has seriously bad areas too and they can be quite close to posher areas.
It is not often a family guy goes off and starts offing people.
and compared to crime prevented it's a good trade off.
I expect that's true.
the engine
25-08-2012, 00:32
My point....missed it seems by many .
If ...you and your family were walking through times square and a man went berserk....would you rather it was with a kitchen knife....a pair of boxing gloves...a rolling pin ...or any of the tools some of you argue a killer will kill with if determined ...or with a killing machine...that doesn't need to get up close...that a human being cannot 'tackle '
That can keep going...and killing...in swathes ..your whole family...in 2 seconds ! Because someone's pissed off . !
Go on...argue...A person can kill with an icicle if he wants to. But maybe not a hundred people out for a trip to the empire state building and maybe get some black Friday bargains.
A gun's a world away from A pair of fecking scissors !!
Why d'ya think it's a weapon of war.?
And for people to be allowed to carry one in a shopping mall ..or a city centre...or at all really.....Seems a teeny weeny little bit FUCKING STUPID ..to me.
My point....missed it seems by many .
If ...you and your family were walking through times square and a man went berserk....would you rather it was with a kitchen knife....a pair of boxing gloves...a rolling pin ...or any of the tools some of you argue a killer will kill with if determined ...or with a killing machine...that doesn't need to get up close...that a human being cannot 'tackle '
That can keep going...and killing...in swathes ..your whole family...in 2 seconds ! Because someone's pissed off . !
Go on...argue...A person can kill with an icicle if he wants to. But maybe not a hundred people out for a trip to the empire state building and maybe get some black Friday bargains.
A gun's a world away from A pair of fecking scissors !!
Why d'ya think it's a weapon of war.?
And for people to be allowed to carry one in a shopping mall ..or a city centre...or at all really.....Seems a teeny weeny little bit FUCKING STUPID ..to me.
Since guns cant be uninvented, I like knowing if some one dose this when I am out with my family that it is likely one or two honest licensed people will most likely be carrying a concealed weapon leagaly. And the nut will be taken out rather quickly.
If I'm sitting in a resturaunt and a gunman starts going off and killing people he may get one or two if he's fast but not a 3rd.
The thing you don't get is government bans on things only apply to law abiding people the bad guys will still get them.
A government ban is like giving a rape victim an aspirin it dose nothing to solve crime .
My point....missed it seems by many.
I don't think people have missed it Ivor, its just rather a pointless argument and I'm not sure you have grasped the under lying message people are making, its not just the weapon?
If someone wants to kill they will, be it with a firearm, a samurai sword, a club hammer or any other weapon. If someone didn't have access to a firearm and they were intent on mass murder they would use an IED - do you think the likes of Anders Breivik, Michael Ryan or Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold wouldn't have gone on their killing sprees if they didn't have access to firearms? Your viewpoint is too simplistic - getting rid of firearms wouldn't stop people killing each other.
And how do you stop someone carrying a concealed weapon into a shopping mall if that's what they want to do?
the engine
25-08-2012, 10:42
I understand this guy got sacked the previous afternoon...
If he didn't have a gun to hand maybe he would have calmed down before he could have obtained one ?
I understand this guy got sacked the previous afternoon...
If he didn't have a gun to hand maybe he would have calmed down before he could have obtained one ?
Commissioner Kelly said the suspect had lost his job about a year ago at Hazan Imports, located near the Empire State Building.
He said Johnson was laid off during downsizing after six years as an employee.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19372533
Since guns cant be uninvented, I like knowing if some one dose this when I am out with my family that it is likely one or two honest licensed people will most likely be carrying a concealed weapon leagaly. And the nut will be taken out rather quickly.
If I'm sitting in a resturaunt and a gunman starts going off and killing people he may get one or two if he's fast but not a 3rd.
The thing you don't get is government bans on things only apply to law abiding people the bad guys will still get them.
A government ban is like giving a rape victim an aspirin it dose nothing to solve crime .
Just my twopenneths worth Jeff. UK gun laws are amongst of the toughest in the world and whilst UK criminals who are determined enough can and do obtain firearms, instances of gun crime here are minuscule compared to those in the US so I don't think your points are valid. Mass gun ownership = increased instances of gun related incidents :(
The Grand Wazoo
25-08-2012, 10:58
Access to guns, pure and simple, is not the only bearing factor on this issue.
Did you know that Switzerland has one of the highest levels of gun ownership in the world (more than the US) and yet there is almost no gun crime whatsoever?
I understand there is a social aspect to this too Chris. Perhaps there should be a psychiatric evaluation for anyone who wants to own a gun in the US?
the engine
25-08-2012, 11:07
Tim...
I'm stopping listening to Sky news breaking report.
My thread was triggered ( bloody good word ) by watching shots ( tch ) from a live cam and the commentator saying the guy lost his job yesterday....my bad for believing news reporters !
Stratmangler
25-08-2012, 11:13
The Swiss gun ownership thing is an interesting case in point....
UzXId3190Q4
Swiss being Swiss they keep track of the guns which mostly come from their version of national service.
We have had guns for years here, the problem is drugs both street drugs and legal drugs.
The one thread that seems to be connecting gun violence is drugs prescribed for depression and anxiety these drugs numb peoples feelings and make killing seem surreal and disconnected because the mind is disconnected from feeling much of anything.
Look at Columbine as a prime example the Ritalin spike became a huge topic here.
The other problems are related to crime over street drugs, one gang seeling in another gangs neighborhood or just committing crimes to support an expencive drug habit.
Gang blood in killings, having to kill to belong to a gang or raise there status in that gang.
It is not really about guns but lack of God in our culture, Drugs and people who have accepted pure evil as a life style plain and simple as that.
We have had guns for years here, the problem is drugs both street drugs and legal drugs.
The one thread that seems to be connecting gun violence is drugs prescribed for depression and anxiety these drugs numb peoples feelings and make killing seem surreal and disconnected because the mind is disconnected from feeling much of anything.
Look at Columbine as a prime example the Ritalin spike became a huge topic here.
The other problems are related to crime over street drugs, one gang seeling in another gangs neighborhood or just committing crimes to support an expencive drug habit.
Gang blood in killings, having to kill to belong to a gang or raise there status in that gang.
It is not really about guns but lack of God in our culture, Drugs and people who have accepted pure evil as a life style plain and simple as that.
Wouldn't say a god would help.
Bush and blair went to war using god and it was messy.
I think USA needs to look at how it could help non whites may be more benificial.
The Grand Wazoo
25-08-2012, 16:19
I have a lack of God in my culture Jeff, and despite having owned and used firearms from my teens right up to a couple of years ago, I never felt the need to turn one on a person.
Tim...
I'm stopping listening to Sky news breaking report.
Not a bad idea TBH - I tend to comment on things I have first hand knowledge of, or from reliable sources that I trust, even then it needs to be corroborated before I take it seriously. A reporter at the scene conveying 'live' news is often not the most reliable source.
Our beloved news media I treat with a lot of caution, many are no more than dishonest, profiteering crooks with no morals and feck all respect for peoples rights or privacy, as has been repeatedly proven by Lord Justice Leveson. 'Who guards the guardians?'
I choose where I get my news from carefully and don't buy newspapers or listen to celebrity gossip shite.
No harm done though Ivor and your post has prompted some lively and interesting debate :)
Wouldn't say a god would help.
Bush and blair went to war using god and it was messy.
I think USA needs to look at how it could help non whites may be more benificial.
We spend more than any other country helping non whites but still some refuse to be part of the country and choose to hate whites,I have seen it over and over.
My wife is non white and even meany of our friends in the Desi community dislike our our country,have no respect for whites and only live here because they can earn more money and the whole time they are here whine about how much India is better?
A large number of blacks have been taught over there lives to hate and distrust whites, It was still not so long ago they where treated as second class citizens here and it still may take years for that to go away but we as a country have bent over backwards in recent years to extend a helping hand and often only to have it slapped. It may all be part of te healing process, only time will tell.Slavery was a horrible mistake for the U.S.
And maybe this divisiveness is the terrible price and it hurts both sides.
Not to say there isn't still some raciest whites, I'm sure they are out there but most whites I know just want the racial issue to go away so we can all move on.
The biggest problem we face may be in our prisons, if a white befreinds any other race he is killed if a Black or Hispanic dose the same thing they will be killed.
Our prison system is in human with 1 or 2 guards per 100 inmates people are killed in prisons daily for nothing.
Or prisons make inmates worse,racists,violent and unable to return to the outside with no counselling,even military need counciling when they come home and they are not exposed to the level of hated and violence that exists in our prisons. It is cruel and unusual punishment to be there and we really need to look at changing the whole system yesterday.
I have a lack of God in my culture Jeff, and despite having owned and used firearms from my teens right up to a couple of years ago, I never felt the need to turn one on a person.
I understand there are law abiding people who may lack God in there lives.
But cultures that do embrace the idea of fallowing commandments and forgiving there fellow man are not so likely to commit horrible crimes ageist people , I'm sure there are some exceptions but as a general rule people who believe in God
and make an effort live there lives in his service don't go out killing people.
I'm sure there are some exceptions but as a general rule people who believe in God and make an effort live there lives in his service don't go out killing people.
For many thousands of years religion has been the cause of more armed conflict than anything else I can think of Jeff :scratch:
Beechwoods
25-08-2012, 17:11
All the passers by injured in New York were hit by Police bullets. Seems like it's the police who need their guns taking off them.
Seems like it's the police who need their guns taking off them.
:lol:
For many thousands of years religion has been the cause of more armed conflict than anything else I can think of Jeff :scratch:
On the contrary more people died violent deaths in world war s 1 and 2 than in the whole of recorded history up to that point. Nothing to do with religion. Difficult in fact to think of a war that was religous. The Crusades are often touted as an example but that was 700 years ago and religion was just an excuse, not the reason.
I think Jeff's point about the side effect of prescription drugs was spot on. These things are handed out like smarties these days and can turn people into unfeeling zombies.
I think you missed my point Martin, I didn't mention and wasn't referring to the numbers of lives lost during armed conflict, quite the contrary. I was referring to the reasons why people have taken up arms against each other throughout history - which has predominately been a religious cause or belief. We shall have to agree to disagree on that if you think that's incorrect, as we must read different history books?
Anyway, no more talk of gloomy stuff for me, as its Glenmorangie and movie time ;)
I'm into history, particularly military. Always willing to learn or stand corrected so if you have concrete examples of wars fought solely for religion please let me know what they are.
WOStantonCS100
25-08-2012, 19:54
For many thousands of years religion has been the cause of more armed conflict than anything else I can think of Jeff :scratch:
Although I agree, a more in depth look is needed.
Religion (outward) <> (!=, /=, "does not equal") Spiritual Cognisance (inward)
I practice the religion of wiping my arse after a poo; I do it religiously. That's no guide or indication of how I will treat my fellow man; especially, since I can choose to religiously sniper attack those walking in public areas. That has nothing to do with God... ...well, except that I imagine I'd be pissing Him off in that instance. :D Armed conflict is, without exception, a result of selfishness and greed on the part of one or all parties involved.
Blaming God (not saying anyone here is) for a religious freak on a rampage is like blaming Saint-Seans for a classical zealot that goes around clubbing punk rockers over the head with a spanner. :scratch: Doesn't quite add up. :lol: Wars are no different. Religion is used as cover for "I want your oil, your land, your fine looking women, :eyebrows: I want to maintain my economic superiority over you or to take vengeance on what I find offensive."
Life would be so much simpler if I just came out and said, "His wife is hot and he's got loot. I'm going to kill him so I can have it." At least, that's honest and straight forward. And then, as we do in America, when he pulls out a .50 caliber as I enter his house and ends the threat... ...at least, we had that understanding from the start.
And all the wounded shot by police !!! There's got to be lessons learned from this, surely??
Dave.
Regardless of any arguments to the contrary, I'm glad I live in a country where gun ownership is restricted. Even if someone took a shot at me I really don't think I would return fire because the consequences of my actions would haunt me forever.
the engine
25-08-2012, 22:07
I suppose it puts the end to the " if everyone had guns someone would take the perp out before he killed many " Theory..... Not convinced.
I'm into history, particularly military. Always willing to learn or stand corrected so if you have concrete examples of wars fought solely for religion please let me know what they are.
If ever?! I think that most times religion has been used as an excuse/cover for the real reasons
The right to bear arms, well we don’t have that right here in England do we. :scratch:
Oh, we don’t have rights at all now I come to think on it. :doh:
If apparently the Swiss own loads of guns and don’t seem to be shooting each other at every opportunity then it would seem that the concerns regarding gun crime may not have so much to do with their availability and rather more to do with the management of society.
The government will always look for ways to restrict our freedoms.
It's why we in America are lucky to have a bill of rights although, because since the 1960's schools have tied them selves in knots to explain they don't really mean what they do.
Leaving generations to think the government is the source of all power not the individual.
It is so bad an employee can't even mention God near a school, it's even been removed from our pledge of aleagance but they accept money that says In God we trust and take all they can get.
Separation of church and state simply meant the government could not force or exclude any religion from being practiced. You have freedom of religion but not freedom from it.
Now every one wants to be offended, so they can sue.
We now have hate crime legislation, simply if you are white and harm some one of another race you will be charged with a hate crime.
But if you are a group of black people and attack whites coming out of a public event and even state openly your group choose whites because they are easy targets.
It's not a hate crime.
Sexual Harassment laws where created to remove men from executive positions and replace them with woman.
Women are almost never affected by these laws.
My point is men have been under attack,even boys are expected to act like little girls in school now.boys by nature don't sit as still unless you medicate them.
I'm 46 years old and the world I live in has not improved in my life time.
I compare American liberals to the Taliban always forcing others to live as they wish at the threat of personal destruction.
The whole idea of the bill of rights was meant to prevent this from happening.
Schools where meant to teach children to read,wright and count not for social engineering experiments.
It's so funny the people who preached tolerance for everyone all through the 60's and 70's came to power and passed the country's first zero tolerance laws.
So now if a 8 year old forgets to leave his boy scout pocket knife home,finds it in his pocket and gives it to his teacher he is expelled with a weapons record.
A 5 year old boy gave a 5 year old girl a kiss and a teacher saw it and the little boy was charged with sexual harassment.
Way to go America Land of the Free Home of the Brave?
We fought a revolution over a small tea tax only to end up paying more in taxes than the country we rebelled against. How sad is that.
The anti gun crowed is all one in the same,depend on the government to protect you, feed you, provide a doctor to wipe your nose but it all comes at a horrible price SLAVERY.
When men are free there is always risk but when you trade that freedom for safety you soon find you have neither one.
That's the fine kettle fish we are in right now.
FROM THE INCARCERATION NATION. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States
More people in prison than any other nation since 2007 Let freedom ring!
The number of people in prison and jails is linked to the expansion of gangs,you can not survive a U.S. prison with out joining a gang you will be murdered by some one joining blood in blood out means you kill some one to join, and die to get out, so it is a culture of death.
And every day new gang members are released from prison educated in hatred and murder and fueled by powerful street drugs pure evil on earth.
These gangs then expand into our children and are glorified by Rap and hip hop music.
This culture is expanding faster than computers did in the early 90's and we haven't even addressed the issue.
Even if you wanted to leave that culture behind you can't with out being killed and there is no counselling available for transition into society,talk about post traumatic stress.
We have wasted what our founders died to create.
Just a side note: meany police officers and Chaplains have come to except demonic influences and one investigator simply stated that he knew he was never alone in the room when interviewing a women who used a mentally retarded man to kill some one for her. Meany prison guards have had paranormal hellish battles.
When James Holmes called to join a gun range, the range master refused to return his calls because the voice on the phone was a growling un human sounding demonic.
That voice and the words he used scared the Hell out of him, Mr. Holmes then went on to commit his horrible crime.
I believe there is mental illness but I have also come to learn some mental illness are a sign of something much worse and so far the only treatment that has brought the patient back to normal in as little as a day when modern medical treatments have failed , is exorcism.
So what dose that mean?
Different things to different people I suppose,I just wonder why so meany are afraid to look at the posabillity there is real evil we do not fully understand.
And there may just be a very real war going on for our very souls.
This kind of thing just can't be legislated, it becomes a personal matter of faith.But personal doesn't mean we as human beings should be afraid to discuss and exchange ideas when these horrible things happen and affect all our lives, even if only our sense of personal safety.
IMO These things biggest advantage is people not believing in there existence because when they are seen for what they are people go running to salvation.
If you have ever experienced a truly possessed person it is often self evident, you won't have any doughts . There are even places that have been fouled and the presents of evil can be felt in a compleatly empty place and no logical reason for it, it just is there. http://sanctifiedchurchrevolution.blogspot.com/2012/06/nc-police-chaplains-banned-from-saying.html#.UDqQntZlQUo
Can you tell me how a small child uneducated with no TV from a small village in Pakistan can suddenly speak in Aramaic a language so old and forgotten it was used by the angels during creation and there are only a dozen people on the planet who can translate it , Sumerian and other obscure phrases from ancient Hebrew. Know the names and lives of people they have never met from different country's all these things should bring the possability into question.
http://religiousdemonology.com/QandA.htm
http://religiousdemonology.com/howdoyouknow.htm
I think evil it's self is a much bigger topic than guns, with out evil we would not need them.
If you have taken the time to read all of this thank you.
the engine
26-08-2012, 22:29
True, there was a time in England when people had them and the country was better off crime wise for it.
With freedom comes irresponsibility, and trading freedom for saftey just makes you a irresponsible slave not able to be trusted to protect your self.
Where are you getting this from ?
In England the people who could hold guns were the gentry...the forces...etc....in other words the people most involved in upholding the law.
The first person to invent underground illegal guns in England was.a certain ...Mr Colt , who opened a factory on the Thames. That way he could sell quickly and cheaply for the to theBritish to fight against the Russians. Unfortunately he got rumbled....guess what for .
For also selling the colt repeater to.
.
.
.The RUSSIANS .
.
To quote Mr Samuel Colt " I don't care who my guns kill as long as they buy mine "
.
.
.oh! By the way.....As you probabl know Sam Colt was american ....TCH TCH !
Where are you getting this from ?
In England the people who could hold guns were the gentry...the forces...etc....in other words the people most involved in upholding the law.
The first person to invent underground illegal guns in England was.a certain ...Mr Colt , who opened a factory on the Thames. That way he could sell quickly and cheaply for the to theBritish to fight against the Russians. Unfortunately he got rumbled....guess what for .
For also selling the colt repeater to.
.
.
.The RUSSIANS .
.
To quote Mr Samuel Colt " I don't care who my guns kill as long as they buy mine "
.
.
.oh! By the way.....As you probabl know Sam Colt was american ....TCH TCH !
As I recall upland game hunting and fox hunting was pretty common and I seem to remember bobby's being able to carry 38's.
I don't claim to be an expert in British gun laws, I do think there will come a day you guys may need to fight for survival and I hope you will be victorious.
As far as Sam Colt go's if he did say that and marketed his products that way He will answer for it, and it is a shame.
But not everyone who makes and sells guns feels that way.
The reason fast and furious was discovered is an honest gun dealer dared to question the BATF and there motives.
http://theweek.com/article/index/229794/the-fast-and-furious-scandal-3-reasons-to-pay-attention
Out of everything I wrote that's it?
Well Jeff, I live in a country where the general population are not allowed to own firearms, and I feel safer for it.
I live in a country where everyone contributes towards a national health service at some point in their life, and I feel better for it. (particularly now as I would be unable to afford all the medication and treatment I am currently receiving otherwise).
I live in a country where those who fall on hard times through no fault of their own are given a little financial support by the government so they can get back on their feet again. Admittedly, the system has some glaring faults but in general terms it works.
I'm not saying it's all 'Buttercups & Roses' here in the UK Jeff but I know which regime I'd rather live under, and I certainly don't consider myself to be a slave to anybody.
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Colt) is an excellent article on the life of Samuel Colt. He was quite a character and wasn't above pulling the wool over peoples eyes to achieve a sale. He also sold his products to both sides during the American Civil War which must have made him very popular indeed. Morals were not Samuel Colt's priority it would seem.
Well Jeff, I live in a country where the general population are not allowed to own firearms, and I feel safer for it.
I live in a country where everyone contributes towards a national health service at some point in their life, and I feel better for it. (particularly now as I would be unable to afford all the medication and treatment I am currently receiving otherwise).
I live in a country where those who fall on hard times through no fault of their own are given a little financial support by the government so they can get back on their feet again. Admittedly, the system has some glaring faults but in general terms it works.
I'm not saying it's all 'Buttercups & Roses' here in the UK Jeff but I know which regime I'd rather live under, and I certainly don't consider myself to be a slave to anybody.
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Colt) is an excellent article on the life of Samuel Colt. He was quite a character and wasn't above pulling the wool over peoples eyes to achieve a sale. He also sold his products to both sides during the American Civil War which must have made him very popular indeed. Morals were not Samuel Colt's priority it would seem.
I am not against helping others in a time of need.
We have family's that have lived on well fair for so long, no one has had a job for several generations in some states.
And they keep having kids to get a larger check.
As far as medical our government is such a bureaucratic mess, it will cost a fortune and youll die filling out forms and standing in line.
We have the best health care in the world and companys in America invent 90% of all new drugs and cures.
If the government cuts the price of pills the research will stop cold because it coasts millions of dollars to get one drug approved by the FDA so we have cures for diseases but it cost to much to get the drug approved because not enough people are sick to even pay for testing if the government forces them to sell drugs cheaper forget new developments from the U.S. http://blogs.plos.org/workinprogress/2012/01/25/how-much-money-do-drug-companies-pay-the-fda/
Our government will screw up a national health care but for Britain it seems to work ok.
As for Sam Colt I'm not a big fan,I'm a Smith & Wesson man myself and have built up meany of them from the frame up.
bobbasrah
27-08-2012, 08:12
Having owned and used firearms, I agree that the UK regimes in their storage, use and transit are very strictly enforced. However, this is something which evolved after WW2, and government paranoia over potential revolt is now shifted to communications, with the same justification, use by criminal groups....
The occasional licensed owner/user has thrown a wobbly, but these are very rare instances indeed which rarely could be predicted or forewarned, other than in hindsight.
The criminal fraternity have and always will be able to obtain firearms, but they are never going to play by “the rules” when out on a job anyway...
In either instance, the armed response unit deployed to deal with such events can identify the target in the certain knowledge there are no other armed individuals to consider.
In the US, that is not something on which they can rely.
However, the US government still trusts it's people sufficiently to permit them the choice of whether to bear arms or not.
Freedom v democracy? Another perspective - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19372177
Who was it who said 'an armed society is a polite society'?
Firearm laws in the UK did used to be far more relaxed, but the Hungerford and Dunblain shootings changed that. We certainly could not transit to the U.S model where in many states you can walk into a gunshop and walk out with a rifle, or wait a week and obtain a handgun, do a bit of shooting with it on a range and obtain a carry permit. WE are not used to it and the result would be somethign akin to the Wild West until people settled down to the idea that anyone could be armed. People would be shooting each other over road rage incidents and queue jumping.
On the other hand like Jeff I am firmly of the opinion that the Government should fear the people and not the other way around. Is the occasional psyco-killing spree too high a price to pay for that?
...and let's not forget that the 2010 Cumbrian "rampage" killings (12 people) were carried out with still legal now weapons - shotguns and .22 rifle - the 2 previous drastic knee-jerk rule changes did nothing to stop it...
[QUOTE=Alex_UK;356175- the 2 previous drastic knee-jerk rule changes did nothing to stop it...[/QUOTE]
Nothig knee jerk about those changes IMO - the government saw the chance to disarm the populace and took it with both hands. They are trying to do the same in the USA but gun opwnership is far too widespread there for it to work so simply.
What people tend to forget is that the 'bad guys' can always obtain a firearm if they want/need to. That is true in every country of the world. Only the law abiding and innocent are left unarmed and defenceless.
......... and companys in America invent 90% of all new drugs and cures.
.
Really? Is that myth or fact?
And if you do have the best medical care in the world how good is it for those that can't afford it?
We have our welfare parasites as well so I'm not sure what the best system would be.
Just a few random thoughts, no offence meant.
Dave.
We have the best health care in the world and companys in America invent 90% of all new drugs and cures.
If the 90% figure is anywhere near true the other spin on this is that it's the mainly Swiss pharma companies exploiting the US system for profit.
As for best health care, others have already stated for whom - just those that can afford it? The French and German systems have their issues but these are pretty good systems for the people. US colleagues of mine complain the US private system is great on prevention, doctors and nurses kept busy with routine appointments but if you need moderately important treatment very quickly this is not always forthcoming.
How will you keep all those morbidly obese people alive - their numbers are a shcok for any visitor to the US)? What's killing them is the undying respect the US has for corporate profit and greed.
- Fast food/saturated fat
- Cattle fed with antibiotics whose aim is to make the cattle grow larger (people are what they eat so they become obese). Banned in the EU.
- The fizzy drinks industry - it's becoming clearer now what effect these have people, again obesity.
- Parabens are in so many products, their aim is to extend shelf life and therefore profits. Almost certainly cancer causing. Restricted but not banned in the EU.
Europe isn't great on some of the above but hopefully we'll see sense before we reach the US extremes.
I don't think they have many more fat people than we do - it has never struck me as such when I have been over there. If anything they are fitness-obsessed compared to the British. Come round my way I can show you we have no shortage of chunky monkeys.
I don't think they have many more fat people than we do - it has never struck me as such when I have been over there. If anything they are fitness-obsessed compared to the British. Come round my way I can show you we have no shortage of chunky monkeys.
It's a purely subjective view but overall I notice a very significant difference. Sure if you stick around CA they are much more health conscious. But many other places, especially poorer communities....it's clear why in clothes sizings the US L = UK XL.
BTW, it's not just the numbers of people who are obese, far more striking is the degree to which they are obese.
Some stats here: http://obesity.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004371
though these don't show obese vs very obese (it's really the very obese people who stand out so much). It looks like the US has 50% greater ratio of obsese people than the UK.
Some stats here: http://obesity.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004371
though these don't show obese vs very obese (it's really the very obese people who stand out so much). It looks like the US has 50% greater ratio of obsese people than the UK.
I guess they just don't get out much - which is understandable. ;)
I have noticed that the BMI indicator for obesity does tend to through up some curve balls when it comes to people who are heavily built but not actually fat. So that may skew the statistics somewhat.
WOStantonCS100
27-08-2012, 14:56
And if you do have the best medical care in the world how good is it for those that can't afford it?
OUCH!!! That hurts (pun intended). :lol: It hurts because it's true. I personally know people with serious "pre-existing" conditions who either have to pay (more like finance) the king's ransome, go into debt to receive medical care OR worse, go without getting that care... ...which essentially means they are staring at the grave. One has to laugh to keep from crying. Our "best medical care in the world" if indeed it is (skeptical) fills a lot of graves. I have a relative who got FAR and away better medical care while he was in Germany than he ever got here in the states and he is a US citizen, not a German citizen. They had no obligation to him whatsoever except as one human being to another. The US tends to think they (we) are the best at everything... we're not... and never have been.
Seriously we get people from all over the world for emergency care and operations.
The US cardiac care is legendary.
We get loads of Canadians who would other wise die waiting for treatment.
The poor here get free health care allready NO emergency room can refuse you and thats why I pay $1,700.00 a month for the three of us and that is subsidized by my employer!
If you go to the hospital for an aspirin it will cost at least $200.00 because you are paying for 3 people on average who didn't pay,not to mention sky rocketing law suits.
It cost 15,000 for my son to be born no complications,natural birth. because if you are here illeagle you still get the same care we did but they don't get billed so we pick up the tab to keep the doors open and thats why so meany emergency rooms and hospitals have closed along our boarders with Mexico and those towns no longer have hospitals,they just couldn't keep the doors open.
BTW I have seen these guys go to emergency with a cold, headache you name it and no matter how small they are never turned away.
I go when I'm near death.
Our government is so generous they require hospitals to treat everyone and tell them to figure out how they will cover people who can't pay. If I don't pay and I am a citizen they will sue it out of me and attach my wages.
And yes our drug industry is by far the largest in the world.
We invent 100's of new drugs each year but only get a handful approved through the FDA because the prossess of approval is not cost effective.
$1,700 per month! What you guys call socialist Europe manages much more cost effectively, our local hospital is leading heart centre, they even do heart transplants there, the same hospital also has a breast cancer centre that is leading within Europe. What we're not good at is having consistent levels of care.
For our private healthcare I pay about 1/12 what you're paying but of course I pay taxes which goes towards running the NHS.
Nothig knee jerk about those changes IMO - the government saw the chance to disarm the populace and took it with both hands. They are trying to do the same in the USA but gun opwnership is far too widespread there for it to work so simply.
What people tend to forget is that the 'bad guys' can always obtain a firearm if they want/need to. That is true in every country of the world. Only the law abiding and innocent are left unarmed and defenceless.
You’re not suggesting that our government is more concerned about armed insurrection than the ‘ordinary people’ shooting each other are you Martin. :eek::D
Seriously we get people from all over the world for emergency care and operations.
The US cardiac care is legendary.
We get loads of Canadians who would other wise die waiting for treatment.
The poor here get free health care allready NO emergency room can refuse you and thats why I pay $1,700.00 a month for the three of us and that is subsidized by my employer!
If you go to the hospital for an aspirin it will cost at least $200.00 because you are paying for 3 people on average who didn't pay,not to mention sky rocketing law suits.
It cost 15,000 for my son to be born no complications,natural birth. because if you are here illeagle you still get the same care we did but they don't get billed so we pick up the tab to keep the doors open and thats why so meany emergency rooms and hospitals have closed along our boarders with Mexico and those towns no longer have hospitals,they just couldn't keep the doors open.
BTW I have seen these guys go to emergency with a cold, headache you name it and no matter how small they are never turned away.
I go when I'm near death.
Our government is so generous they require hospitals to treat everyone and tell them to figure out how they will cover people who can't pay. If I don't pay and I am a citizen they will sue it out of me and attach my wages.
And yes our drug industry is by far the largest in the world.
We invent 100's of new drugs each year but only get a handful approved through the FDA because the prossess of approval is not cost effective.
Frankly I can't see how this argument works. This system is a licence to print money for Pharma and health insurance concerns. You are being ripped off and you are all blind to it :(
Hi Jeff,
We have similar people over here. We also have almost a tradition of weekend night rushes at our A&E (Accident & Emegency) units caused by over-indulgence in legal and illegal substances to the extent now that many such units have to employ security staff to help keep the practicioners safe from b*st*rds who think their self inflicted problems entitle them to immediate treatment.
Thanks to our European 'friends' in Brussels we also now cannot send back anyone, legal or illegal, who arrives in the country and claims to have a serious or life threatening condition that they claim cannot be treated in their own country - we are obliged to take them in and treat whatever condition they arrive with. As you can imagine, treating such patients is rarely cheap and therefore puts great demands on the service and obviously limits the resources that can be deployed to aid those who have paid to support the system all their lives.
Human rights of the mad house IMO. Unless we can restrict such abuses I fear the NHS will collapse, a scenario that many politicians (in the pocket of big business) would not be too disappointed to see. I'm 72 and do not look forward to getting seriously ill.
Rant over :) .
Dave.
bobbasrah
27-08-2012, 18:18
You’re not suggesting that our government is more concerned about armed insurrection than the ‘ordinary people’ shooting each other are you Martin. :eek::D
Well if Martin isn't, I am pretty certain that has been the dilemna and preoccupation of UK governments since the time of the French Revolution...;)
Well if Martin isn't, I am pretty certain that has been the dilemna and preoccupation of UK governments since the time of the French Revolution...;)
Could be true but it does raise the question: - Is the average French citizen really any better off for having got rid of their 'toffs' than we are who are still lumbered with them?
IMO the net result is that they merely replaced one set of the elite with another with perhaps a little less 'class' differentiation than before.
Dave.
bobbasrah
27-08-2012, 19:18
Could be true but it does raise the question: - Is the average French citizen really any better off for having got rid of their 'toffs' than we are who are still lumbered with them?
IMO the net result is that they merely replaced one set of the elite with another with perhaps a little less 'class' differentiation than before.
Dave.
British v French Constitution?
Citizen v Subject?
Like the Napoleonic codes, they probably have no relevance today of course...;)
Citizen v Subject?
Nice one Bob - that is probably the smallest statement that could sum it all up - I like it :) .
Dave.
Frankly I can't see how this argument works. This system is a licence to print money for Pharma and health insurance concerns. You are being ripped off and you are all blind to it :(
Your health care program actually makes some sense.
Most people don't have a problem with a social program to help the uninsured it's the program and abuses that come with Obama care we don't want.
It is medical care being used as a form of control by our government we don't want.
Our government is to tied to corruption to be trusted with another impotaint aspect of our lives.
Do some reading on Obama care and you will soon figure out why it is unwanted. http://www.forbes.com/sites/gracemarieturner/2012/04/11/obamacare-is-the-embodiment-of-fiscal-disaster/
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/15-reasons-why-the-obamacare-decision-is-a-mind-blowing-disaster-for-america
If this is implemented and not changed we will crash like Greece taking the world with us.
the engine
28-08-2012, 08:21
I'm into history, particularly military. Always willing to learn or stand corrected so if you have concrete examples of wars fought solely for religion please let me know what they are.
Well yes ...the European 30 year war started purely and simply as a war between protestants and catholics. It later spread into other political arenas but religion was the catilyst .And so I would say it was at least started... solely for religion.
:scratch:
And I 'm pretty sure the Turks took Jerusalem in ( might be wrong..not great on dates ) the 15 th century and banned christians it started a purely religious war . In fact most of the wars concerning Jerusalem , we're talking hundreds here...before the post WW2 agreements back to the pre biblical days would have concerned religious access and the right to worship on the mount of the rock and the surrounding areas but especially the location of the 'holy of holies'...which even the early conquering Romans dared not even enter for fear of jewish reprisals . which is far to complex to bore you with here. But a conservative estimate of wars fought solely for religion in this area would probably run into treble figures....so yes religion, or 'magic' as I consider it and so disbelieve in it...has caused some serious shit !!
The 30 years war I don't go along with - that was actualy a global war with any number of reasons for causation, although like many conflicts of that time it polarised around protestant/Catholic - however don't forget they all believed in the same God. The Christian churches were the power blocs of the time, they were fighting over wealth and power, not the truth (or otherwise) of transubstatantiation.
The Crusades were a mixed bag spanning 300 years - certainly religion was used as a catalyst in both conflicts - i.e to get the plebs riled up and ready to die for a cause. Much like the IRA really, recruiting youngsters to fight the evil British whilst actually just using that as a cover for gangster activities identical to Cosa Nostra in the USA.
'Religion causes war' seems to be a bit of a knee jerk statement often made by those who follow the Richard Dawkins aethiest agenda. It does nothing to advance their case with those who have a reasonable amount of historical knowledge
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