Acoustic treatments / Bass Traps

[MikeMusic]

Anyone treated their own listening room ?

Just stumbled across these guys
http://www.studiospares.com/acoustics/bass-traps/icat/acobasstraps/

[sq225917]

Yeh I have between the speakers and in the corners and I'm going to rePlace the corner units this weekend.

[MartinT]

You know I have, Mike, as you've been over.

Four TubeTraps, one in each corner, three PicturePanels and a SubTrap. Not cheap, custom made in the USA and shipped over. There are some good looking cheaper products in the UK now but it's hard to know if they are as effective.

[awkwardbydesign]

Treated mine, all hidden behind fabric and wall rug.http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/ListeningArea001.jpghttp://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/ListeningArea002470x353.jpg
Top edges now filled in too.

[MikeMusic]

Yeh I have between the speakers and in the corners and I'm going to rePlace the corner units this weekend.

How did you arrive at what you needed ?

[MikeMusic]

You know I have, Mike, as you've been over.

Four TubeTraps, one in each corner, three PicturePanels and a SubTrap. Not cheap, custom made in the USA and shipped over. There are some good looking cheaper products in the UK now but it's hard to know if they are as effective.

There seems to be 'more of it around' -could be my imagination.
I was wondering if it has now become, or is becoming something we can all do

[MikeMusic]

Treated mine, all hidden behind fabric and wall rug.
Top edges now filled in too.

How did you work out what you needed ?
What differences have you noticed since install ?

[Sonority]

Treating a room can be taken to the extremes :eyebrows:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a221/sph2701/IMG_3090-1.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a221/sph2701/IMG_3111.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a221/sph2701/IMG_1202.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a221/sph2701/IMG_3599.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a221/sph2701/IMG_3584-1.jpg

Rather more has been done since I took those as well, and the results are all worthwhile.
By far the biggest bang for buck you can do.
Like everything else in life - it's a series of compromises.
If it's a shared living space - a lot of compromises, but hey, thats life..

[awkwardbydesign]

I bet the dog is pretty absorbant.:eyebrows:

[MikeMusic]

Treating a room can be taken to the extremes :eyebrows:
Rather more has been done since I took those as well, and the results are all worthwhile.
By far the biggest bang for buck you can do.
Like everything else in life - it's a series of compromises.
If it's a shared living space - a lot of compromises, but hey, thats life..
How did you work out what you should have ?
Could that be summed up by
"take all reflective or moving surfaces out of the room" ?
I think - and earnestly hope that the ceiling was packed with insulation when we were refurbed
5 windows and 2 sets of double glass doors, plus a large mirror could be seen as the complete opposite to all of this
Lots of light and lots of reflection
Hmm...

[MartinT]

I was wondering if it has now become, or is becoming something we can all do

I don't see why not, and you'll get big bang for your buck as room sound is so important to ultimate sound quality.

[MikeMusic]

I don't see why not, and you'll get big bang for your buck as room sound is so important to ultimate sound quality.

I could Google for it... do you know where I might start ?
You've seen the room
Super reflective ?

[awkwardbydesign]

How did you work out what you needed ?
What differences have you noticed since install ?
Look here http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1660296/page/31#Post1660296
And yes, the difference is very noticeable. Much cleaner and can go louder; ask the neighbours.:eek:

[MikeMusic]

Look here http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1660296/page/31#Post1660296
And yes, the difference is very noticeable. Much cleaner and can go louder; ask the neighbours.:eek:
Thanks !
We're detached, but I could open the windows so they can join in
:)

[MartinT]

I could Google for it... do you know where I might start ?

The Acoustic Sciences website has a lot of info and they cater for studios as well as homes. As I said, TubeTraps are the real deal but not cheap. However, it might give you a few ideas.

http://www.acousticsciences.com/

[MikeMusic]

The Acoustic Sciences website has a lot of info and they cater for studios as well as homes. As I said, TubeTraps are the real deal but not cheap. However, it might give you a few ideas.

http://www.acousticsciences.com/

Thanks Martin

[Sonority]

Like Richard, I ran a blog and asked questions on Music player (Ethan Winer) and read as much as I could from his FAQ etc - an absolute gold mine of info.

How much you need? Impossible to have too much :lol::lol:

Just dont try to kill the room dead - just to tame it and keep an even response. Easy to achieve with a little knowledge :)

Have fun.

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1984380/Wall_boundary_trapping#Post1984380

[MikeMusic]

Like Richard, I ran a blog and asked questions on Music player (Ethan Winer) and read as much as I could from his FAQ etc - an absolute gold mine of info.

How much you need? Impossible to have too much :lol::lol:

Just dont try to kill the room dead - just to tame it and keep an even response. Easy to achieve with a little knowledge :)

Have fun.

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1984380/Wall_boundary_trapping#Post1984380

Thanks
Wish I'd been on this in 2009 when we were being refurbed !

[bobbasrah]

Like Richard, I ran a blog and asked questions on Music player (Ethan Winer) and read as much as I could from his FAQ etc - an absolute gold mine of info.

How much you need? Impossible to have too much :lol::lol:

Just dont try to kill the room dead - just to tame it and keep an even response. Easy to achieve with a little knowledge :)

Have fun.

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1984380/Wall_boundary_trapping#Post1984380

I believe Steve2701 and Sonority are one and the same, and this is the same project which Stephen meticulously catalogued throughout construction..... A cracking new build project.... Not the retrofit that most will have to contend with....

The beauty of broadband absorbers is their simplicity of construction, the problem is hiding them within a "normal" domestic environment, as it becomes quite intrusive.:doh:

The room here is lined on all 4 corners with broadband panel traps, which were stuffed behind with triangles. The absorbent surface absorbs HF and kills reflections, and the 100mm slab wool is good for absorption down to near 100Hz or thereabouts.:)
Packing still-wrapped rolls of glass wool into the corners are certainly a cheap and easy way to experiment....:eyebrows:

Real BASS traps <100Hz are not so simple to DIY however....

[MikeMusic]

The room here is lined on all 4 corners with broadband panel traps, which were stuffed behind with triangles. The absorbent surface absorbs HF and kills reflections, and the 100mm slab wool is good for absorption down to near 100Hz or thereabouts.:)
Packing still-wrapped rolls of glass wool into the corners are certainly a cheap and easy way to experiment....:eyebrows:

Real BASS traps <100Hz are not so simple to DIY however....

Would these do a good job behind a canvas painting ?

[awkwardbydesign]

Real BASS traps <100Hz are not so simple to DIY however....
True, but enough of this, and far enough from the wall, would help. http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1660416/page/29#Post1660416

[awkwardbydesign]

Would these do a good job behind a canvas painting ?
A canvas painting would allow bass in and out, to be absorbed, but higher frequencies may be reflected. It depends on the frequencies you want to lose or keep. Foil covered insulation can be reversed to tailor the response, or different covers used. I have a Persian (?) rug behind me, and cotton fabric in front.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/26072012446.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/26072012447.jpg
Again, Ethan is the guy to ask.

[Mr Perceptive]

Have a look at Vicoustic if you want reflectors/absorbers that might be more domestically appealling.

[bobbasrah]

Would these do a good job behind a canvas painting ?

If you mean the corner absorbers Mike, probably the lower frequencies would be absorbed, yes, but painted canvas will NOT be acoustically transparent so higher frequencies will bounce/reflect.... Depends where you fit it though...:eyebrows:

I have shelving units below the top 1m panel with further panels below on the front wall, so it has to bounce of the panelled rear wall to be able to reflect off the front etc....;)

Any fabric which you can breathe through will be acoustically transparent, and most fabric shops have a vast selection.... :cool:

[MikeMusic]

A canvas painting would allow bass in and out, to be absorbed, but higher frequencies may be reflected. It depends on the frequencies you want to lose or keep. Foil covered insulation can be reversed to tailor the response, or different covers used. I have a Persian (?) rug behind me, and cotton fabric in front.Again, Ethan is the guy to ask.

Thanks
I have a window behind me......

[MikeMusic]

Have a look at Vicoustic if you want reflectors/absorbers that might be more domestically appealling.

Thanks. Site saved for later

[Clive]

Thanks
I have a window behind me......
It's curtains for you then!

[bobbasrah]

Thanks
I have a window behind me......

Vertiblinds/curtain = diffraction

[MikeMusic]

If you mean the corner absorbers Mike, probably the lower frequencies would be absorbed, yes, but painted canvas will NOT be acoustically transparent so higher frequencies will bounce/reflect.... Depends where you fit it though...:eyebrows:

I have shelving units below the top 1m panel with further panels below on the front wall, so it has to bounce of the panelled rear wall to be able to reflect off the front etc....;)

Any fabric which you can breathe through will be acoustically transparent, and most fabric shops have a vast selection.... :cool:

Thanks. Transparency the key then

[bobbasrah]

Thanks. Transparency the key then

For reflections in hi frequencies at ear level, yes.

[MikeMusic]

It's curtains for you then!
Hohohoho
:)
There was a nice difference when we put quite thin curtains up
Must test with curtains open and closed

[MikeMusic]

Vertiblinds/curtain = diffraction

Some experimenting to do

[MikeMusic]

For reflections in hi frequencies at ear level, yes.

Thanks
Ok
What else do I need to achieve ?

[Clive]

Hohohoho
:)
There was a nice difference when we put quite thin curtains up
Must test with curtains open and closed

Using my measuring kit there's a clear difference when my door is open or closed so I expect our curtains will make a difference. I'm sure the room needs extra insulation :) some thick lining for them would be a good move!

[MikeMusic]

Using my measuring kit there's a clear difference when my door is open or closed so I expect our curtains will make a difference. I'm sure the room needs extra insulation :) some thick lining for them would be a good move!
Thanks
What measuring kit ?
Keep warmer in the winter...
How thick is thick ?

I was always happy with the sound when we were in the 1 bed flat converted from garage while the refurb was on
3 much smaller windows, wooden door, plasterboard not plaster on brick, wooden floor on insulation instead of carpet on concrete
I have wondered about having the listening room in there.....

[Clive]

Thanks
What measuring kit ?
Keep warmer in the winter...
How thick is thick ?

I use XTZ Room Analyzer.

I haven't a clue how thick the thermal lining needs to be but proper thermal lining for curtains is very heavy and I'd imagine very good for your purpose.

[Sonority]

Hi Mike,
An important sentence in my first post may actually be a good first port of call.
A shared living space = compromise.
Find out from who you share it with just how far you can go with what you want, and proceed from there - at least if it were me thats where I would be going.

If you read enough on the sites / forums mentioned (it will take a fair bit of time) you will have your own ideas about just where you can and want to take it.

Be aware that 'symetry' in a listening room will become more and more important.
While a line of heavy curtains down one side of a room *may* do a little ( in all honesty, very little apart from very high freq) what about the opposite wall. Very, very easy to go mess up a soundstage.
Can you achieve a 'Reflection Free Zone' (RFZ) where you listen? This would be my aim.
You will also see that any corner = a place for bass to accumulate. A room has 12 of these - so it is a target rich area ;)
Good luck.
PS - Please, please, dont be tempted by pots of Fiscus Elastica - they really do nothing, honestly.
PPS - the door being closed in my room = RT60 cut in half - literally - ( a very good thing ) but some swear that an open door is needed to let bass out. Not in my case.. (RT60 = room decay time)

[bobbasrah]

Excellent post Steve.....

[MartinT]

My system also sounds better with the two doors closed.

[hifi_dave]

Thanks
I have a window behind me......

Curtains are your friend. Just simple, interlined curtains, preferably floor to ceiling. Open when you are not listening intently. Keeps you and the good lady happy at the same time.

[bobbasrah]

Some experimenting to do

If you have a load of quilts duvets and blankets in storage Mike (even with the uk "summer"), you could do worse than pile em/stack em/ prop em in the corners to see what difference it makes as a experiment FYI.... Simple no cost....

[awkwardbydesign]

If you have a load of quilts duvets and blankets in storage Mike (even with the uk "summer"), you could do worse than pile em/stack em/ prop em in the corners to see what difference it makes as a experiment FYI.... Simple no cost....
However, remember that duvets etc. are low density so may not tame the bass. If they work, fine, but if they don't that may be why.

[bobbasrah]

However, remember that duvets etc. are low density so may not tame the bass. If they work, fine, but if they don't that may be why.

Agreed Richard, but some attenuation in the mid/lows rather than none may give an indication of the possibilities..... :eyebrows:
I have no doubts as to the advantages of several packs of 100mm glass wool slab. Think there are about 16 panels in this room, the best and cheapest upgrade my system ever had. ;)

[MikeMusic]

Hi Mike,
An important sentence in my first post may actually be a good first port of call.
A shared living space = compromise.
Find out from who you share it with just how far you can go with what you want, and proceed from there - at least if it were me thats where I would be going.

If you read enough on the sites / forums mentioned (it will take a fair bit of time) you will have your own ideas about just where you can and want to take it.

Be aware that 'symetry' in a listening room will become more and more important.
While a line of heavy curtains down one side of a room *may* do a little ( in all honesty, very little apart from very high freq) what about the opposite wall. Very, very easy to go mess up a soundstage.
Can you achieve a 'Reflection Free Zone' (RFZ) where you listen? This would be my aim.
You will also see that any corner = a place for bass to accumulate. A room has 12 of these - so it is a target rich area ;)
Good luck.
PS - Please, please, dont be tempted by pots of Fiscus Elastica - they really do nothing, honestly.
PPS - the door being closed in my room = RT60 cut in half - literally - ( a very good thing ) but some swear that an open door is needed to let bass out. Not in my case.. (RT60 = room decay time)
Thanks very much. Very useful advice
Lots to try with 2 days off just closing and opening doors, curtains, maybe moving furniture
I get to 8 corners in a rectangular room not 12. Did I miss something ?
Sally is pretty happy with almost anything as long as it looks tidy. I was amazed she was happy with black Mana racks, supports and tops

[MikeMusic]

My system also sounds better with the two doors closed.
I may have 6 of one and half a dozen of the other with 2 glass doors
Will experiment

[MikeMusic]

Curtains are your friend. Just simple, interlined curtains, preferably floor to ceiling. Open when you are not listening intently. Keeps you and the good lady happy at the same time.
"floor to ceiling"......
Wish I'd thought of that before we had all the curtains

[MikeMusic]

If you have a load of quilts duvets and blankets in storage Mike (even with the uk "summer"), you could do worse than pile em/stack em/ prop em in the corners to see what difference it makes as a experiment FYI.... Simple no cost....

Great idea
Here how did you know I was a cheapskate ?
:)

[MikeMusic]

However, remember that duvets etc. are low density so may not tame the bass. If they work, fine, but if they don't that may be why.

Thanks. Was just thinking about that as I worked my way down
Could have other stuff lying around to suit. Maybe quilts with denser items on top

[hifi_dave]

"floor to ceiling"......
Wish I'd thought of that before we had all the curtains

Floor to ceiling isn't particularly important to the sound improvement, it's just that they don't cost much more than cill length and they look better. My Wife is an Interior Designer and some of it has rubbed off on me.

The interlining does make an improvement to the sound though. Unlined curtains are nowhere near as effective and they don't hang as well. Interior Designer again.

[bobbasrah]

No worries Mike, the curtains will absorb HF reflections, and these will probably be at ear level anyway, so no biggy. Longer curtains with linings will improve on that obviously, but there are often radiators to contend with, display units, etc....

Steve's point regarding symmetry is important. As you reduce reflections and absorb lower frequencies, the speakers will come sharply into focus as the source, since bouncing waves are reduced.... Not always absolutely possible, but ideal if you can mirror the arrangement.

I have a settee set close to the rear wall, and can hear the bass resonate if I poke my head behind it, and can feel the increased air pressure there.
The same used to be true of the room corners, but the panels and infill REDUCE these resonances. You cannot kill room modes, but treatment means you need to crank the volume up a fair bit more to excite them than previously, and the higher frequencies are totally absorbed...

Think you are in for a real treat....

[MikeMusic]

Floor to ceiling isn't particularly important to the sound improvement, it's just that they don't cost much more than cill length and they look better. My Wife is an Interior Designer and some of it has rubbed off on me.

The interlining does make an improvement to the sound though. Unlined curtains are nowhere near as effective and they don't hang as well. Interior Designer again.

Too much going on after the refurb to think about everything that needed to be thinked about

[MikeMusic]

No worries Mike, the curtains will absorb HF reflections, and these will probably be at ear level anyway, so no biggy. Longer curtains with linings will improve on that obviously, but there are often radiators to contend with, display units, etc....

Steve's point regarding symmetry is important. As you reduce reflections and absorb lower frequencies, the speakers will come sharply into focus as the source, since bouncing waves are reduced.... Not always absolutely possible, but ideal if you can mirror the arrangement.

I have a settee set close to the rear wall, and can hear the bass resonate if I poke my head behind it, and can feel the increased air pressure there.
The same used to be true of the room corners, but the panels and infill REDUCE these resonances. You cannot kill room modes, but treatment means you need to crank the volume up a fair bit more to excite them than previously, and the higher frequencies are totally absorbed...

Think you are in for a real treat....
Thanks. Very interesting as we are nowhere near symmetry. A few blankets draped around will hopefully give me some more clues

[Alex_UK]

I can hardly control myself with all this curtain talk! :eek:

[Stratmangler]

I can hardly control myself with all this curtain talk! :eek:

Don't worry - nobody's mentioned lilac yet ;)
Damn - I just mentioned lilac :doh:

[Alex_UK]

Where's the :mopup: smiley when I need it?

[Stratmangler]

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/jobs/mopping-smiley-emoticon.gif (http://www.sherv.net/mopping-emoticon-1884.html)

[Nevalti]

My system also sounds better with the two doors closed.

It will presumably depend on where the doors are relative to the speakers and any potential reverberation.

My speakers are either side of French-windows to the garden. I recently found that opening those doors significantly improves the depth of the sound stage. It may sound like a joke but the orchestra/band suddenly gets more room to spread themselves out. Most drummers now sit half way across my patio:D

[MikeMusic]

It will presumably depend on where the doors are relative to the speakers and any potential reverberation.

My speakers are either side of French-windows to the garden. I recently found that opening those doors significantly improves the depth of the sound stage. It may sound like a joke but the orchestra/band suddenly gets more room to spread themselves out. Most drummers now sit half way across my patio:D

Next weekend I shall try opening the outer French windows to see if they migrate to the patio !
If I open both sets of doors maybe they will mingle
:)
Comparing Technics to LP12 and playing with guttering got in the way last weekend

[bobbasrah]

:zzz: