View Full Version : Heads Up - 32bit 192khz Dac
tubehunter
22-08-2012, 12:12
http://www.teac.eu/hifi-audio/reference-series/h-01/ud-h01/
Richer Sounds are doing these for £149
Total bargain or what:)
I'm just trying one out now....
StanleyB
22-08-2012, 12:47
The specs are great, but the sound is of questionable quality. Richer is dumping them due to lack of take up by the serious DAC listeners. I think that TEAC overloaded the design with extra electronic features that had a negative impact on the audio output quality. A shame really.
RochaCullen
22-08-2012, 13:51
http://www.teac.eu/hifi-audio/reference-series/h-01/ud-h01/
Richer Sounds are doing these for £149
Total bargain or what:)
I'm just trying one out now....
Look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Nathan
sq225917
22-08-2012, 14:54
My Mrs' brother has two of them, one upstairs one downstairs. It's actually a very good sounding dac, for under £200 it's a stone bargain, not so much at its full MSRP. It certainly isn't shamed within his Exposure set-up. It's better via the spdif than it is via the usb
http://www.teac.eu/hifi-audio/reference-series/h-01/ud-h01/
Richer Sounds are doing these for £149
Total bargain or what:)
I'm just trying one out now....
Agree with Simon, pretty good IMO, got a good review in a few mags.
sq225917
22-08-2012, 20:18
Not sure what extra electronic features Stanley is talking about. It's just a dac with a USB input, no fancy software, multiple filters or a volume control- just an honest dac using BB best chips. Same chips as in the Young dac actually, except the TEAC runs two of them in dual differential mode.
Not sure what extra electronic features Stanley is talking about. It's just a dac with a USB input, no fancy software, multiple filters or a volume control- just an honest dac using BB best chips. Same chips as in the Young dac actually, except the TEAC runs two of them in dual differential mode.
Cannot blame Stan for poo pooing it, as is is similar in price to his, I ordered one today so I will have:-
Furutech Esprit
Audiolab M-Dac
Bushmaster
Teac
Touch with PSU using analogue out
perhaps you should pop round for a session Simon?
realysm42
22-08-2012, 20:45
I read that 32 bit recording euqioment doesn't even exist yet?
(Stereomojo)
I read that 32 bit recording euqioment doesn't even exist yet?
(Stereomojo)
future proof then???:)
Spectral Morn
22-08-2012, 21:02
It looks beautifully made and finished with just a wee hint of the Esoteric about it.
I read that 32 bit recording euqioment doesn't even exist yet?
(Stereomojo)
Nor does 24 bit playback...
I read that 32 bit recording euqioment doesn't even exist yet?
(Stereomojo)
I doubt it ever will. (Spdiff is 24 bit max BTW). If its described as a 32bit DAC it normally means that the internal filter is working in 32 bit precision, not that the analog out it has a dynamic range of 190dB
realysm42
23-08-2012, 07:11
I doubt it ever will. (Spdiff is 24 bit max BTW). If its described as a 32bit DAC it normally means that the internal filter is working in 32 bit precision, not that the analog out it has a dynamic range of 190dB
Interesting; is there a benefit to working to that resolution?
Interesting; is there a benefit to working to that resolution?
Well, yes, say for a (not real example) you are trying to interpolate (filter) between two 24 bit values, both one bit apart, you can't represent the middle value in 24 bits. But if you first convert the 24 bits to 32 (effectively multiply both values by 256), you have 256 intermediate values you can use.
Mr Perceptive
24-08-2012, 13:50
Doesn't the NAD M51 DAC work at 35bit resolution?
allsorts
25-08-2012, 00:59
http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/teac/a-h01/teac-ah01
Has anyone any experience with this amp/dac. I'm looking for a small, "green" amp for a pair of b&w 685s to go with a macbook?
wee tee cee
25-08-2012, 07:53
http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/teac/a-h01/teac-ah01
Has anyone any experience with this amp/dac. I'm looking for a small, "green" amp for a pair of b&w 685s to go with a macbook?Thats some bit of kit,be really interested to hear what it sounds like.....vfm---amp/head amp/dac plus the ability to run a powered sub....majik
sq225917
25-08-2012, 11:47
David, yeh I'll have tO do that. I'm slammed out until our 2013 kit comes out, sept 4th, but I should be able To steal a day after that. I can bring the Weiss and possibly an upgraded mdac by then.
Stratmangler
25-08-2012, 11:58
http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/teac/a-h01/teac-ah01
Has anyone any experience with this amp/dac. I'm looking for a small, "green" amp for a pair of b&w 685s to go with a macbook?
The TEAC looks to be an interesting bit of kit, but in all honesty I think it would struggle to control a pair of small B&W anything.
They're not easy speakers to control.
Marantz beefed up their amplification ranges because of the popularity of B&W speakers.
Doesn't the NAD M51 DAC work at 35bit resolution?
...dunno, but what I do know is it's physically impossible to have 24bit analogue resolution never mind 32bit.
...dunno, but what I do know is it's physically impossible to have 24bit analogue resolution never mind 32bit.
Not sure what you mean there?
Reid Malenfant
25-08-2012, 20:20
...dunno, but what I do know is it's physically impossible to have 24bit analogue resolution never mind 32bit.
I think you mean digital resolution, analogue could be broken up into a virtually infinite number of samples, just depends on how accurate you want to be at the end of the day :eyebrows:
So assuming you mean digital, how do you explain a whole load of discs that I have with 24 bit encoding? :scratch:
Not just talking CDs here, a hell of a lot of blu rays have 24 bit surround uncompressed...
Also how do you explain this? (http://www.discogs.com/LTJ-Bukem-Planet-Earth/release/458294)
The DVD features a DTS ES 6.1 48/24 Surround mix, on-screen bios and a mix breakdown.
I'd say I'm all ears, but as I can only see your typing, I guess I'm all eyes ;)
sq225917
26-08-2012, 07:33
What we all assume he means is that it is impossible to engineer sufficient precision into any range of resistors to create a ladder with 24bit resolution. So while the data might be encoded with that precision it cannot be converted into voltage with the same precision. 24 bit precision is below the level of Johnson noise.
What we all assume he means is that it is impossible to engineer sufficient precision into any range of resistors to create a ladder with 24bit resolution. So while the data might be encoded with that precision it cannot be converted into voltage with the same precision. 24 bit precision is below the level of Johnson noise.
With all due respect, thats wrong on all counts. It may be impractical to make a r/2r dac, but thermal noise is nothing to do with it. 24bit is a dynamic range of 144dB. large but not that large, if you wanted a 2v RMS output, then that makes 1bit 170nV, thats in the range of a 1k resistor. Want more range, just make the DAC output 200v, or whatever value you want.
Anyway, thats all irrelevant, there are other ways to build a dac that don't rely on a resistor network.
If this TEAC DAC does sound good, then I don't think we can say it's anything to do with it being "32bit" or "192Khz"...
Show me a device that can get anywhere close to 144db dynamic range, the best I have seen is the Stahl-Tek Vekian at 127db, which is an absolutely astonishing achievement... painful price though! Who here would play their music at 100+db to get the benefits?
The ESS Sabre DAC is supposed to have a dynamic range of 134db despite being a "32bit DAC", which should offer around 192db theoretical dynamic range...
I think Lampizator uses a good analogy here:
"The non mathematical explanation is possible if we take the example of say the printer. Some printer manufacturer can claim the resolution of 20 000 dpi. This may be a valid claim for the ink injecting head resolution and it's software, but the "analog" result will be that the drop of ink will smear over an area 10 x bigger than its injector nozzle, and B) the paper structure has fibres 10 x bigger than the 20 000 dpi requires. So the picture limitation is in the paper ink interaction, not the head injector resolution. Not to mention accuracy of head movement on the rails, temperature of injectors, air pressure and humidity etc.
So somebody promising a resolution of 24 bits is effectively claming that he produced electrical device which controls the output signal to a wide range of loads with accuracy of one/17 millionth part of a volt.
THIS CLAIM IS NOT VERY SERIOUS. We take it with a grain of salt."
So somebody promising a resolution of 24 bits is effectively claming that he produced electrical device which controls the output signal to a wide range of loads with accuracy of one/17 millionth part of a volt.
THIS CLAIM IS NOT VERY SERIOUS. We take it with a grain of salt."
I think you are confusing resolution and accuracy, a resolution of 24 bits means that the output of the dac will change when the LSB changes. Entirely possible. As to if its necessary, then probably not.
But as I said before, a 32 bit dac is a potentially useful thing, even if the output only had 20 bit resolution because advantage it has for the internal processing.
realysm42
26-08-2012, 19:40
an upgraded mdac .
Do tell me more?
I think you are confusing resolution and accuracy, a resolution of 24 bits means that the output of the dac will change when the LSB changes. Entirely possible. As to if its necessary, then probably not.
But as I said before, a 32 bit dac is a potentially useful thing, even if the output only had 20 bit resolution because advantage it has for the internal processing.
ACcuracy and resolution are the same thing when you're talking the end result. There might be a change but you get to a point where you're just quickly wiggling the end of the long string of a kite - the wind is doing the moving and your wiggles don't make any difference.
Even dCS don't claim their dacs can output 24bit equivalent in the analogue domain.
Their stated max resolution is 21bit.
dCS have been making digital hardware for military etc for decades (before someone says that dCS aren't very good therefore they're wrong..).
Which does beg the question what data is in the 24 bit file in those other 3 bits cos I'd guess that the ADC process won't be any more accurate than the DAC as ADC is more difficult. Add to that the microphones giving much lower output than say 2V so each LSB when recording in 24 bit will be attempting to reach into the quantum energy levels no doubt were it digitised there but in reality you'll be digitising the detail of the noise and inaccuracies of the pre-amp.
Cannot blame Stan for poo pooing it, as is is similar in price to his, I ordered one today so I will have:-
Furutech Esprit
Audiolab M-Dac
Bushmaster
Teac
Touch with PSU using analogue out
perhaps you should pop round for a session Simon?
Is that before or after your (long-awaited) T/T bake-off in your newly refurbished listening room? ;)
Marco.
I believe my friend will be going for one of these teac DACs. When he has run it in for a few weeks I will be keen to do a comparison with my rega.
StanleyB
06-09-2012, 19:48
Cannot blame Stan for poo pooing it, as is is similar in price to his,
My apologies for missing your reply Dave. Too many topics to read whilst there are loads of jobs to be done at my end :rolleyes:.
But in reply to your comments: far from it. I do get hold of or buy other DACs to compare against my designs irrespective of cost difference.( I did have to take a big hit on the DAC1 HDR though when I got rid of it after testing it against the TC-7520 :(). I just don't like to make it public which ones they are or what I think of them specifically. But I shall make an exception on this occasion in view of comments made by a view people, and in order to make it clear that I wrote my comments in the light of first hand experience. They were not made off the back of some pictures or reading up on the product on the net.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/aos/BMT.jpg
I don't have anything to be afraid of as far as the sound quality between the two DACs above is concerned. The audio defects of the competition were clear enough for me to distinguish, both on headphones and through speakers. But I'll leave it to someone else to make a comparison that I can agree or disagree with instead. The superiority of the BM in areas such as vocal and instrument separation, clarity at the high end of the dynamic range, and punch in the bass was however not in doubt at any stage of my (blind) listening. And I haven't even mentioned the headphone outputs. I had someone else flick the A/B switch on my amp whilst I had my eyes closed so that I could exclude any mental bias from seeing the position of the A/B switch. But the most annoying part of it all was the loud relay clicks. The Caiman relays were audible in many instances, but these ones are so loud I could even hear them in operation with my HD7000 headphones on.
So what we need is the Bushmaster in the Teac case...:)
Plus I'd like remote control input select please.
Cheers,
StanleyB
06-09-2012, 21:14
That Teac case is plastic, not solid metal ;). And what you need a remote control for, you couch potato :lol:.
What the dual PCM1795 config does show though is that there is no substitute for careful designing based on extensive listening. High specced parts under the hood don't guarantee high end sound at the output sockets. Too many people are blinded by DAC specs and retail price of the finished article. Maybe I should cast my scruples aside and join that mug's game :scratch:. The CDP I know of that uses the same DAC chip as the BM was last advertised at U$2000.
Might be interesting Stan to revisit the revised Bushmaster for another Dac off, with the Brio-R. Might be organising another wee get together in the near future.
Just a thought mate. :)
Audioman
07-09-2012, 08:44
That Teac case is plastic, not solid metal ;). And what you need a remote control for, you couch potato :lol:.
What the dual PCM1795 config does show though is that there is no substitute for careful designing based on extensive listening. High specced parts under the hood don't guarantee high end sound at the output sockets. Too many people are blinded by DAC specs and retail price of the finished article. Maybe I should cast my scruples aside and join that mug's game :scratch:. The CDP I know of that uses the same DAC chip as the BM was last advertised at U$2000.
TEAC's got asychronous USB which is what a lot (most) people want. So you have to factor in cost of V-Link or similar for USB with the Bushmaster. At the current price the TEAC is probably in line with level of SQ and functions provided. Would also like to see an Ethernet connection on both these models.
sq225917
07-09-2012, 09:32
TheTEAC uses the same chips as the M2Tech Young, but uses a pair of them in dual diff. I haven't heard a Bushmaster so can't compare, but I didn't find the TEAC lacking, it's tuned for use in middle fi set-ups.
StanleyB
07-09-2012, 09:42
People want all sorts of thing or have been led to believe that is what they want, but async doesn't produce a better audio playback experience as far as I am concerned. There isn't a single section in the playback of async that produces a distinctive audio recovery process that cannot be detected in isync USB. It's the DAC chip that does the D to A process and determines the final sound signature before any analogue output stage. And if the DAC chip doesn't deliver as expected then it's a wasted opportunity to get a better audio experience for the money.
Mind you, not everyone wants to use USB for audio. It's still the last resort as far as media files playback is concerned and has a long way to go yet before it can match up to TOSLINK or SPDIF.
StanleyB
07-09-2012, 09:57
TheTEAC uses the same chips as the M2Tech Young, but uses a pair of them in dual diff. I haven't heard a Bushmaster so can't compare, but I didn't find the TEAC lacking, it's tuned for use in middle fi set-ups.
The Teac produces a blurred image with overlaid tracks. The Norah Jones CD Come Away With Me is a very good example with numerous overlaid tracks suitable for critical listening tests. Well worth trying out. The Teac also produces a crushed upped edge at the higher end of the dynamic range. It sounds like it is bottoming out when the music gets louder. Bass is also slow in pace. Bob Marley's Three Little Bird is just one of many bass guitar tracks that shows this up. The drum kit on Hotel California is another good reference point. Headphone output is also disappointing.
It could well be that most buyers are only looking for a DAC suitable for a mid-fi set up, in which case it is perfectly suitable. But we should not water down the distinction between what is achievable versus what one has to settle for based on wallet content. The Teac was after all U$500 upon release. The engine is well specced, but the overall performance is not there to call it a boy racer.
purite audio
07-09-2012, 10:36
M2Tech could OEM you a nice neat async USB module, it would make your dacs far more saleable with the PC crowd.
Keith.
timanderson
24-12-2012, 11:10
The Teac produces a blurred image with overlaid tracks. The Norah Jones CD Come Away With Me is a very good example with numerous overlaid tracks suitable for critical listening tests. Well worth trying out. The Teac also produces a crushed upped edge at the higher end of the dynamic range. It sounds like it is bottoming out when the music gets louder. Bass is also slow in pace. Bob Marley's Three Little Bird is just one of many bass guitar tracks that shows this up. The drum kit on Hotel California is another good reference point. Headphone output is also disappointing.
It could well be that most buyers are only looking for a DAC suitable for a mid-fi set up, in which case it is perfectly suitable. But we should not water down the distinction between what is achievable versus what one has to settle for based on wallet content. The Teac was after all U$500 upon release. The engine is well specced, but the overall performance is not there to call it a boy racer.
I have just set up the Teac and while I have never heard a Bushmaster, it appears to be a substantial upgrade from a Caiman with Gator board. What I have noticed is deeper bass, a more spacious sound, more natural vocals and so on. I don't have Norah Jones but I do have the Marley track as well as Hotel California and cannot hear any problems with these.
I have configured it to use aysnc USB from a Squeezebox Touch, allowing resolutions up to 24/192, and it sounds excellent.
Tim
I only ever use optical and coax to output from my pcs. Having a pair of each the bushmaster suits my needs. will definitely be my next purchase.
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