Are carts from china genuine ???

[the engine]

Loads of them on shitbay etc... and every make you can think of but when I asked in a well known hi fi chain shop about this I got the reply....." they're fakes " .
Now I have no idea if this is true....what I do know is that everything is being faked by someone somewhere if a penny is involved.
I also appreciate that something like a pick up cartridge fake will ( or damn well should ) be crap up to the genuine article . So can anyone shed any light on these cheap chinese cartridges ? Are they the real thing or is there a lucrative market in nasty cartridges ?
They are tempting.....

[Stratmangler]

If the price looks too good to be true then it's usually too good to be true ;)

[prestonchipfryer]

Just don't buy any of it. Usually junk if it's cheap. Buy cheap, buy twice, etc.

[the engine]

Ok. But we are talking here of the region of say £350 for a £500 ccart. Not a slaughtered price . More like a " we buy them in bulk " price. But still to some people half a weeks wage saved !
See what I mean ?
If £500 cart was £50 then that would be obvious. Or is that the cunning mind game ?
Anyone know for sure...or from experience ???

[prestonchipfryer]

Can you provide a link to the cartridges you mean?

[YNWaN]

I've not heard of any fake cartridges (yet). You can certainly buy some cartridges from Japan directly, avoiding UK distributor markup and some dealer margin.

[Dominic Harper]

I have had a look at one of the Chinese carts in its component pieces.
DO NOT BUY ONE! They are absolute rubbish. The tip alone was scary. Looked like a church steeple under my scope and would certainly damage your records.
All other parts were not well made apart from its plastic chassis which was quite good!

[YNWaN]

Was it pretending to be a well known make?

[walpurgis]

I see there's a batch of Audio Technica MCs on eBay currently from a Hong Kong seller. It may be an idea for anybody contemplating purchase to email AT for an opinion. They may be genuine and AT may know.

[sq225917]

Like any from China only buy from a trusted seller, there are plenty of dealers in China who buy bulk and sell well below Euro pricing. If you want a safe bet buy from 2Juki, he's well regarded, his kit is all genuine and his service is top notch. I've bought from him and know many other satisfied buyers who have.

I wouldn't go near a Chinese branded cartridge with a stick.

[Tim]

If I can add little here being a reasonably regular visitor to China, as my best mate lives there. He's just outside Shenzhen which is one of the major manufacturing areas as you enter the mainland from Hong Kong. At the border area is a huge and I mean huge retail sector called Lo Wu, this place is known locally by the Chinese as 'copy, copy' You can buy just about anything in Lo Wu and hardly any of it is genuine. I won't say its all fake as that would be a sweeping statement but IMO not far off the mark. If you imagine a large town that consisted of nothing but shops and malls, that's Lo Wu. And just as a large town would have most things you needed, Lo Wu is the same, but they are fake. A lot of it to be fair is very good, especially clothes and leather goods you can pick up hand tailored shirts for around £5.00 - electronics however are a very different matter, nasty is a word that springs to mind when you look at a lot of the stuff being sold.

I would tread very carefully before spending large amounts and perhaps enter into correspondence with the seller to try and find out where they are located - do this covertly if you can, as opposed to a direct question. If they are located anywhere near Lo Wu I would avoid them, unless you have a recommendation from someone you trust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo_Wu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhen

[StanleyB]

You may well have asked if iPhones from China are genuine.
Let's face it: China is now the main manufacturing hub of many expensive brand stuff. The price you pay is not a reflection of how much it costs to make.

[MartinT]

If you want a safe bet buy from 2Juki, he's well regarded, his kit is all genuine and his service is top notch.

Seconded. I bought my Shelter from him and I would buy from him again.

[DaveK]

I see there's a batch of Audio Technica MCs on eBay currently from a Hong Kong seller. It may be an idea for anybody contemplating purchase to email AT for an opinion. They may be genuine and AT may know.

And why, in your opinion, would AT say anything other than "They are fakes"?
Dave.

[walpurgis]

Seeing the huge spectrum of products that China now makes, I would think there must be a good cartridge manufacturer there somewhere turning out interesting items. Some of the Chinese electronics are quite excellent, I've had a few examples.

[walpurgis]

And why, in your opinion, would AT say anything other than "They are fakes"?
Dave.

Not sure what you're getting at Dave. They may be fakes, they may also be genuine. People do buy imported reputable Hi-Fi products in China and dealers there may stock genuine Audio Technica products and be able to also sell these on to overseas buyers at competitive rates. I was implying that AT may be able to confirm that.

[DaveK]

Not sure what you're getting at Dave..

I really can't imagine, even if it were true, that AT would confirm it. Their UK agents/sellers would be a bit miffed to say the least if AT were effectively to tell potential customers that they could get the same product cheaper from HK and/or China. Even worse if AT sell direct.
Or am I missing something?
Dave.

[Beechwoods]

The fact that they probably have legitimate distributor deals with Hong Kong and Chinese based businesses that they wouldn't want to damage by suggesting they weren't legit?

It's a global marketsplace. Some terms of sale for 'grey imports' may limit warranty protection etc, but it doesn't mean they're counterfeit.

[DaveK]

The fact that they probably have legitimate distributor deals with Hong Kong and Chinese based businesses that they wouldn't want to damage by suggesting they weren't legit?

It's a global marketsplace. Some terms of sale for 'grey imports' may limit warranty protection etc, but it doesn't mean they're counterfeit.

But IME such distributor deals are geographically limited as the last thing any company would want is their licenced dealers cutting each other's throats?
Dave.

[Beechwoods]

Yes, but it doesn't mean they'd go around telling customers they were selling fakes.

[DaveK]

Yes, but it doesn't mean they'd go around telling customers they were selling fakes.

Nick, that's not what I said :) . I said "I can't imagine them confirming they were legitimate" and there is a significant difference. ;)
Dave.

[the engine]

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com.au/viewitem?itemId=300708446265&index=3&nav=SEARCH&nid=15483327998

I suppose having to state ' genuine' tells it's own story .

[MartinT]

2juki's stuff is always a treasure trove:

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/2juki

[the engine]

Thanks...some great stuff.
His staff however maybe need some product training lol

.
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=280938546151

[MartinT]

Oops :lol:

[sq225917]

The scale is free with the cart, doh.

[walpurgis]

But IME such distributor deals are geographically limited as the last thing any company would want is their licenced dealers cutting each other's throats?
Dave.

How would one know that?

[MartinT]

In the world of distribution and dealers, everyone knows what the competition are up to. It's called survival.

[walpurgis]

Without going to the far east and exploring the situation its a bit difficult to say, things may work differently there.

I have done business with oriental sellers dozens of times and they seem willing to do whatever it takes to achieve a sale. I doubt a Japanese company would be too put out by a Chinese seller re-exporting their product.

[DaveK]

How would one know that?

I would not know that but having been involved in international sales (albeit in totally different markets :) ) I found it to be common practice (and common sense ;)) . You do not wantyour agents cutting each others throats do you, that's one of the quickest ways to commit commercial suicide I would have thought.

[istari_knight]

You often find the pictures in the listing are of the genuine article but what you receive is a little different so theres no way to tell without buying... Of course if you pay with PayPal you will be covered if it turns out to be a fake.

I bought a pair of Sony MDR-V6 headphones from a chinese eBay seller & when they turned up 6 weeks later they were fakes albeit very good ones but thats not the point so I opened an "item not as described" case - Seller issued a full refund and told me to keep them claiming he didnt realise :rolleyes:

[walpurgis]

Dave, saying "I would not know" and "I would have thought" kills any objective point you may have wanted to make. Seems you're telling me that really, you have about as much of a clue as I have about fake or non-fake marketing in the far east. And I don't have a clue.

I can always offer an opinion and even sometimes an argument. But I find arguments a waste of time really, as nobody tends to change their standpoint.

[DaveK]

Dave, saying "I would not know" and "I would have thought" kills any objective point you may have wanted to make. Seems you're telling me that really, you have about as much of a clue as I have about fake or non-fake marketing in the far east. And I don't have a clue.

I can always offer an opinion and even sometimes an argument. But I find arguments a waste of time really, as nobody tends to change their standpoint.

Keep yer shirt on!! :eyebrows: All I'm doing is expressing my opinion based on my similar experience and a bit of common sense :) . You don't have to share that opinion and equally you don't have to belittle it either. Got out of the wrong side of the bed (or wrong bed ;) )did you this morning?

Anyway,maybe slightly off topic but others (you are excused ;) ) might be interested in looking at this thread - the connection is the label of the thumbnail: -

http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=diypictures&action=display&thread=8419

At the risk of boring the odd reader, having done business in that part of the world, this sort of thing does not surprise me one bit.
Dave.

[walpurgis]

I wasn't annoyed Dave, just getting bored with the thread. Geoff.

[DaveK]

I wasn't annoyed Dave, just getting bored with the thread. Geoff.

Geoff, note my last sentence ;) .

[prestonchipfryer]

Let's get back to the original question.

If you are not sure then stay away.

In the long run it would be better to deal with an accredited cartridge dealer.

[walpurgis]

Oh dear! I think I may just have got told off.

[walpurgis]

Loads of thunderstorms today around here and lots of torrential rain!

[Alex_UK]

Loads of thunderstorms today around here and lots of torrential rain!

I think it's fake weather though, came across from China. ;)

[southall-1998]

Loads of thunderstorms today around here and lots of torrential rain!

Don't remind me :(:lol:

[f1eng]

I know at least one maker who has 2 specs for the cartridge suspension rubber depending on whether they are to be sold in hot or cold countries.
Even a genuine item may not be the same spec as one you would buy here.

[The Grand Wazoo]

I heard that too.
But I also heard it was a tale put about by a certain importer/distributor who was pissed off with grey imports. Absolutely sounds no names, no pack drill.

[walpurgis]

I heard that too.
But I also heard it was a tale put about by a certain importer/distributor who was pissed off with grey imports. Absolutely sounds no names, no pack drill.

Now that sounds likely.

I'd think a good cartridge maker would choose a suspension material that covers a wide spectrum of environment temperatures.

[Alex_UK]

If it was for the UK market they should be catering for extremes!

[Reffc]

Now that sounds likely.

I'd think a good cartridge maker would choose a suspension material that covers a wide spectrum of environment temperatures.

Absolutely. The stories about different suspension materials being used I suspect are just urban myth.

If you check out the compliance figures for a cartridge, they are normally quoted for 20 degrees (room) temperature (whether or not they state that), so irrespective of where they are being sold, the compliance is always relative to 20 degrees. In hot humid climates, actual compliance may increase (just as shining a hot spotlamp at your TT from close range will increase compliance!) and for those Eskimos amongst you who like to play records at sub zero temperatures, compliance would in theory decrease.

Manufacturing cartridges is a costly enough business without setting up a separate line for various suspension compliances made to work differently, hence I don't believe its done.

[sq225917]

Let's look at this logically. What's the coldest you or anyone you know lets their house get, 15-20 degrees, and what's the hottest your rich Arab Sheik will let his oil-millions palace get, maybe ten degrees more? Even thinking about some guy in a hut in the tropics with wild humidity and temp in the 100's- what use will he have for $5000 cartridge. If you've got that disposable income, you've got air-con.

Just looking from a stockholding POV, if you've got two grades of suspension then you need to hold more stock to offer the same variety in multiple lines. That's a shit way to run a business when you could do the same by speccing a single rubber with a wider temp grade.

So I strongly doubt that there are multiple models of otherwise identical carts with different suspension compliance. Especially when the original comment was attributed to the UK Koetsu importer via editorial from K-Kessler in HFN&RR. i can still remember the very page it was on.

[f1eng]

Let's look at this logically. What's the coldest you or anyone you know lets their house get, 15-20 degrees, and what's the hottest your rich Arab Sheik will let his oil-millions palace get, maybe ten degrees more? Even thinking about some guy in a hut in the tropics with wild humidity and temp in the 100's- what use will he have for $5000 cartridge. If you've got that disposable income, you've got air-con.

Just looking from a stockholding POV, if you've got two grades of suspension then you need to hold more stock to offer the same variety in multiple lines. That's a shit way to run a business when you could do the same by speccing a single rubber with a wider temp grade.

So I strongly doubt that there are multiple models of otherwise identical carts with different suspension compliance. Especially when the original comment was attributed to the UK Koetsu importer via editorial from K-Kessler in HFN&RR. i can still remember the very page it was on.

Quite possibly right, particularly since even payin Formula 1 prices the manufacturers would only spec +/- 10% on polymer stiffness, batch to batch, so there is probably shed loads of sample difference anyway.
Cartridges are not that expensive to make BTW, just expensive to -buy-.

[sq225917]

Time is money, but I get the point.

[StuN]

Must say that when I bought my Grace F9 many years ago in Hong Kong, the dealer wanted to know where I was going to use it as they had different stylus assemblies for differing humidities. Temperature it seems wasn't the issue.