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pentode10
01-02-2009, 21:42
Hi,
apologies if this has been covered before but I'm a recent member..

In a recent thread Steve Toy touched on the subject of interconnect cables being in contact with the wall as to cause degredation in sound quality.

I've not heard of this one before so whats the deal folks...

Cheers
Andy.

aquapiranha
01-02-2009, 21:48
Mains cables in the wall?

Steve Toy
04-02-2009, 14:55
On a revealing setup you'll hear coloration in the mid as well as a touch of upper bass boom with an interconnect touching the wall.

As for mains cables being in the wall, this is also an issue that can be addressed by using a mains block and mains cables designed to reduce the effects of microphony. You can even experiment with decoupling the mains block from the floor in some way. By microphony I mean vibration borne by the cable and transfered directly into your sensitive electronics.

As I say, it's about vibration. I'd like to try an experiment of connecting a house brick to an auxilliary input on the back of a preamp. I bet decoupling the brick from the floor will make an improvement (subsequently removing the brick altogether will be better still I'd expect!)

It's one of those suck-it-and-see experiments with cables, blocks and supports. There's no point in arguing about its merits. Experience is the key as well as trusting your ears - which is basically what AOS is all about.

We'll be paying a lot of attention to microphony at our demo at Scalford Hall on 1st March by how we set up our system.

The very best UK dealers for being knowledgeable about the effects of microphony are Audio Works in Cheadle near Manchester. Two of their guys (Mr Ed and Rick O) post here from time to time.

pentode10
04-02-2009, 18:23
Thanks for that Steve,that's very interesting.
As my system is shelf mounted a lot of cabling is touching the wall.
Looks like I have some experimenting to do.
I have to say some of the problems in sound quality you mention are
sometimes the case !!

Cheers
Andy.

Filterlab
04-02-2009, 19:40
...Experience is the key as well as trusting your ears - which is basically what AOS is all about...

That's the key here. Regardless of the scientific basis, if there's a notable audible improvement by decoupling interconnects and/or mains blocks from the adjacent surfaces, it has to be worth investigating. News to me though I have to say. :)

Marco
04-02-2009, 20:43
Basically, apart from carrying our precious music signals from one box to another, cables can also act as aerials for RFI and as a conduit for microphonic interference...

Therefore, steps must be taken to combat this, one of which is not allowing cables to come into contact with surfaces (such as walls) where vibration could be transferred along cables and into equipment, thereby creating said issues of microphony within internal circuitry sensitive to such :)

That's why all my cables 'hang' in free space, well away from any walls or the floor. This is very easily facilitated when your equipment is on multiple Mana supports and between four and six feet off the ground ;)

Marco.

pentode10
04-02-2009, 22:17
The issue with cables and RFI I understand and am aware of, as cables can act as aerials and transmit what ever RFI stray signals are around into the system.
When you think of it one of the best aerials you can have, especially for AM and short wave radio is a long piece of wire.

The issue with wall contact I have more difficulty with, especially in my case as the wall is concrete and accousticly dead to all intence and purposes.
I guess stud walls ( plaster board ) could well be more susceptable as it will be less accoustically dense..

That said, it will be interesting to have a fiddle and see what transpires.
I find it pays to keep an open mind with these things.

Andy.

Marco
04-02-2009, 22:47
Hi Andy,

I understand your scepticism, but think about all that vibrational energy generated by your speakers, particularly when music is being played loudly... Do you think that none of it travels up the walls, from the floor, no matter what material walls are made from, not to mention general structural vibration present in your home caused by outside influences such as traffic, particularly if you live near a busy main road? ;)

This is also why knowledgeable enthusiasts use properly designed (often elaborately constructed) equipment supports to house their gear and thus help cocoon it from said vibration.

One of the reasons Naim introduced the new Powerline mains leads, for example, (and their Hi-line interconnects), with decoupled IEC sockets and 13A plugs (and them recommending that locking collars on DIN plugs were kept undone), was to combat this very problem. The last thing you want is to couple your cables to a source of vibration and thus allow vibrational energy to be transmitted into sensitive circuitry inside equipment, which is effectively what you're doing when signal or power cables touch walls and/or the floor; where possible you want to decouple them completely from any such source of vibration.

Like Steve says, in a high resolution system the detrimental sonic effects of not doing so are all too obvious... Anyway, try rearranging things and let us know how you get on :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
04-02-2009, 23:02
Hi Guys

I must confess to not having heard of the wall issue. Running near mains etc and RFI yes (all my cables have RFI blockers on them). I suppose the effect might be lessened if the walls are very solid load bearing and a bit of a distance from the speakers. Also if your floors are concrete. If the walls near your kit was say plaster board and your floors were suspended, the problem would be much worse.

But letting your cables hang in mid air might also expose them to air borne vibration too. And laying them in cradles of the floor as well. I had always heard that that was more about static in the carpet. XLO 20 years ago felt that was very important. Fascinating stuff all of this isn't it ?

Regards D S D L---Neil :)

Marco
04-02-2009, 23:15
Evening, Neil :)


But letting your cables hang in mid air might also expose them to air borne vibration too.


Indeed, but it's the best solution because then they're only being exposed to one form of vibration instead of two or possibly three, if cables are on the floor and also touching walls.

The virtual elimination of the effects of the above is precisely the reason why I use multi-phase Mana supports. Quadraspire Reference acrylic and Townsend Seismic Sink supports are also highly effective in combating this problem, amongst others.

That's why by simply dumping your gear on an old sideboard (or on something like that) will never result in the unlocking of its true sonic potential...

Marco.

Spectral Morn
04-02-2009, 23:25
EVENING MARCO... KEEPING WELL ?


Indeed, but it's the best solution because then they're only being exposed to one form of vibration instead of two or possibly three, if cables are on the floor and also touching walls.

I tried lifting my cables of the floor years ago but could hear no difference...maybe worth trying again. However Speakers pump energy down cables because of being hooked to the back of them and also air borne too. Some form of de-coupling from the speaker interface would really be needed too ?


The virtual elimination of the effects of the above is precisely the reason why I use multi-phase Mana supports. Quadraspire Reference acrylic and Townsend Seismic Sink supports are also highly effective in combating this problem, amongst others.

Yes agreed...I find my Clear Light RDC Aspeckt Racks to be very good. Light frame (non Metal), resonant damping material in floor cones and in all the shelves. There is also a degree of looseness in the design too. Was fantastic value when they sold for £500 at I think £750 now not perhaps as good value but still very good tables and isolating products.


That's why by simply dumping your gear on an old sideboard (or on something like that) will never result in the unlocking of its true sonic potential...

Anyone who does that is in for a truly earth shaking shock when they move it off and on to a proper table. Even using isolation platforms will be a revelation.

Regards D S D L ----Neil :)

Steve Toy
05-02-2009, 14:57
Indeed, but it's the best solution because then they're only being exposed to one form of vibration instead of two or possibly three, if cables are on the floor and also touching walls.


Vibtration from contact with walls/floors is of far greater magnitude than that from the air. Anyway, enough theorizing, go, experiment, report back.

Beware, those with systems sitting on B&Q wallshelves or sideboards may not notice any difference with the interconnect touching the wall or not for the bottleneck of resolution and dynamics may mask the effect.

Filterlab
05-02-2009, 14:59
...systems sitting on B&Q wallshelves or sideboards...

I'd hope that any audiophile would at least have a proper equipment rack.

Steve Toy
05-02-2009, 15:30
Rob, it might be worthwhile flicking through the gallery...

Filterlab
05-02-2009, 15:33
Surely not!

Mike
05-02-2009, 19:38
If I said 'anal retentive' would that mean anything to anyone? ;) :eyebrows:


:lolsign:

Colin
05-02-2009, 19:49
I'd hope that any audiophile would at least have a proper equipment rack.

define proper equipment rack please, avoiding if possible anything that is made from plexiglass, angle iron, and square section tube, and if possible does not include glass shelves.

Marco
05-02-2009, 20:46
Quadraspire Reference acrylic (it's made of acrylic ;)), and there are a few decent quality wooden racks on the market, too, Colin.

Personally, though, I'd only use an equipment support that demonstrably (by ear) deals with the issue of microphony in components and the effect of vibration, based on relevant design principles, not simply glorified furniture with a silly price tag for badge snobs. Fortunately there are a few examples of the former on the market, some of which I have already mentioned.

Marco.

Clive
05-02-2009, 20:47
If I said 'anal retentive' would that mean anything to anyone? ;) :eyebrows:


:lolsign:
I'm tempted to mention Peter Belt in this context. Whilst the proposition is not total bollocks it's not far from it. Been there, done all this....even hanging cables with elastic bands. I'm not saying it'll never makes a difference but it you have flimsy walls and vibrations you have far greater problems to deal with.

There so much more your can attend to before worrying about this stuff. Mostly I found that moving cables around effected better phono connection.

Colin
05-02-2009, 21:03
Quadraspire Reference acrylic (it's made of acrylic ;)), and there are a few decent quality wooden racks on the market, too, Colin.

Personally, though, I'd only use an equipment support that demonstrably (by ear) deals with the issue of microphony in components and the effect of vibration, based on relevant design principles, not simply glorified furniture with a silly price tag for badge snobs. Fortunately there are a few examples of the former on the market, some of which I have already mentioned.

Marco.

The acrylic rack falls into the same field as plexiglass as far as I am concerned, The reason I ask is that I have tried various audio phool racks at one time or another, from mana, sound organisation, iso something- blue I think, and one other, sorry crap memory for trivia. The mana and sound org I bought on a punt, the iso and other were borrowed or stolen. If they work, and its a big if, the cheap thing I have at the moment works just as well. As in my poor old ears can hear no changes. It could be that the victorian pile of rubble we call home has got stupidly thick concrete floors, double and treble thick brick walls which negate the problems of vibration that the ''posh'' racks try to fix. It could also be that the speakers are some 17 or 18 foot away from the electrics, with a nice thickly padded sofa between them. The only wall in the listening area that is not a support wall is the wall behind the 'rack', but as the rack does not touch the wall that I assume can bounce around to it heart content. It is that wall that caused me to sit the CD player on squash balls and granite, well the effect of a pair of mad boxer dogs charging through the back door that opens on to the wall.

The audio phoo racks could not negate that any better than the squash balls do.

Marco
05-02-2009, 21:15
Don't underestimate the effect of good equipment supports, Clive - they form the foundation for your system and allow it to perform optimally. When you've visited me and heard my system, I suspect that you'll appreciate this a little bit more :)

Al (alb), fellow D.I.Y-er and stand sceptic, by touching the MDF boards supporting my Mana stands when music was playing rather loudly (somewhat of an understatement!), was most impressed by the way the equipment supports rejected the vibrational energy generated by two very large stand-mount speakers with 12" bass drivers pumping out significant slabs of bass energy mere feet away from the stands supporting the electronics...

If I were you I'd retain an open mind on this matter until after your visit ;)

Marco.

Marco
05-02-2009, 21:23
Colin,


The acrylic rack falls into the same field as plexiglass as far as I am concerned, The reason I ask is that I have tried various audio phool racks at one time or another, from mana, sound organisation, iso something- blue I think, and one other, sorry crap memory for trivia. The mana and sound org I bought on a punt, the iso and other were borrowed or stolen. If they work, and its a big if, the cheap thing I have at the moment works just as well. As in my poor old ears can hear no changes. It could be that the victorian pile of rubble we call home has got stupidly thick concrete floors, double and treble thick brick walls which negate the problems of vibration that the ''posh'' racks try to fix. It could also be that the speakers are some 17 or 18 foot away from the electrics, with a nice thickly padded sofa between them. The only wall in the listening area that is not a support wall is the wall behind the 'rack', but as the rack does not touch the wall that I assume can bounce around to it heart content. It is that wall that caused me to sit the CD player on squash balls and granite, well the effect of a pair of mad boxer dogs charging through the back door that opens on to the wall.

The audio phoo racks could not negate that any better than the squash balls do.

I'm in no position to dispute what you've heard but all I'd say is that if I were to bring some QS Ref or non-magnetic stainless steel Mana round to your place and set your system up on it, I'd be very confident of making a sonic improvement from the support system you're using at the moment. There are simply too many variables and a lack of absolutes in this game for there ever to be a universal solution (or otherwise) for everything, so one should never say never about anything...

Maybe we should have a play sometime when the weather is a bit better for travelling? :)

Marco.

Clive
05-02-2009, 21:23
Don't underestimate the effect of good equipment supports, Clive - they form the foundation for your system and allow it to perform optimally. When you've visited me and heard my system, I suspect that you'll appreciate this a little bit more :)
Marco, I wasn't referring to supports, that's a different topic. Feet, roller blocks etc are all sonically valid. It's the interconnects touching the walls and floors I was commenting on. I would add that you don't know the lengths I've been to in the past and the systems I've heard and tinkered with. I know what's important to me and what I've found is important. Some stuff is vital, some stuff is voodoo.

Marco
05-02-2009, 21:30
Indeed, but one can sometimes dismiss elements of system fine-tuning as "voodoo" simply because one hasn't heard the effect in the right system or room - these things can and do happen. I'm not necessarily referring to your own situation, though.

I can assure you that if I wasn't able to determine a genuine sonic improvement by keep cables away from the floor or walls, and cable 'dressing' in general, I wouldn't do it ;)

It also costs nothing! The 'small details' sometimes in my experience are often what can transform a good system into a great one...

For me, when it comes to system set-up, EVERYTHING matters - I leave no stone unturned!

Marco.

Clive
05-02-2009, 21:39
Indeed, but one can sometimes dismiss elements of system fine-tuning as "voodoo" simply because one hasn't heard the effect in the right system or room - these things can and do happen. I'm not necessarily referring to your own situation, though.

I can assure you that if I wasn't able to determine a genuine sonic improvement by keep cables away from the floor or walls, and cable 'dressing' in general, I wouldn't do it ;)

The 'small details' sometimes in my experience are often what transforms a good system into a great one...

For me, when it comes to system set-up, EVERYTHING matters - I leave no stone unturned!

Marco.
I agree with that which is why I left a get-out-clause, "Whilst the proposition is not total bollocks it's not far from it.". I can envisage situations where weird things that seemingly seem like voodoo can have a benefit. Each system is a highly specific situation. However the solutions we find sometimes don't always do what we think they do. Hence my comment about creating a better connection for phonos by suspending them mid-air.

Colin
05-02-2009, 22:11
To be fair ish, any thing that looks like mana or the QS acrylic stuff would have to have a wonderous effect before I would give it house room. Any body bother with this stuff for tellies I wonder.

Marco
05-02-2009, 23:00
Regarding your first sentence, Colin, I guess there's only one way to find out... ;)

As far as your second sentence is concerned, I've put an old pre-flat screen colour TV on top of a Mana stand, and believe it or not, the picture quality improved quite dramatically with a significant reduction in 'grain' and increase in colour sharpness and definition! :)

This experiment was first carried out years ago in the mid 90s when Mana supports first entered the marketplace and won awards in all the hi-fi mags. I guess that these results shouldn't be too surprising if one considers how many parts there are, and how microphonic the whole internal circuit assembly is, in an old 'tube-type' TV.

If Mana can successfully attend to the effects of microphony in relatively empty hi-fi boxes (in comparison to old TVs), then it's bound to have the same effect, or even bigger, on something with more parts inside which are subject in a similar way to the effects of vibration.

With a hi-fi system I guess it boils down to how you see its use in the home. For me, it's simply a tool to do a job (reproducing recorded music as accurately and as enjoyably as possible) so I don't really care much what either the boxes themselves look like or what's supporting them. My only real concern is that they do their job extremely effectively. It also helps when you have a dedicated room for the purpose which is separate from the family living room and as such don't have to consider pain in the arse things like WAF :eyebrows:

Marco.

Colin
05-02-2009, 23:24
My system is in a listening room as well, just not (from choice) my private domain, and even if it was, having used mana and sound org tables in the past I will not be using them again. The assumption that they are not used because the wife would object may say much more about you than me. As to its job in the home, its main job is to reproduce music for ALL of us in a enjoyable way. The less intrusive the boxes and support system can be made to be, the better.

The rest of it from my experiance falls into the belt camp, I have yet to hear noticeable changes to the sound of a system from swapping one well made cable for another, one rack for another, yet can hear the changes from speaker placement, change of CD player, or cartridge. The other stuff may well be audible to some, but not to me, or it simply may be the differences individually are so small I simpy can not be bothered to listen for them. It could also be that I am looking for something very different in music reproduction in the home. I have stopped listening to the system, and simply listen to the music. A little example, the last disc I played tonight was lady in satin, by the time this was recorded her voice was to a great extent shot to pieces, the recording quality is OK, the remastering is OK, but the emotion in the recording comes flooding out. Highly revealing system or not, anal levels of attention to detail or not, flash hi-fi rack or dod of cardboard and particle board from Ikea or MFI not withstanding, that does not change.

I may get blacker blacks, or higher highs, or less grain or bigger soundstage if I paid such level of attention to detail, but to be honest I doubt it, what I would not get is any more emotion out of the disc.

May be the sig below this says more about my attitude to hi-fi than anything else I can type in these boxes.

Clive
05-02-2009, 23:41
I came across this tonight, quite long and I've not read every word yet....I suspect it's relevant though:

The high-fidelity initiate, bewitched, bothered, and thoroughly confused by the staggering selection of components he must choose from, often turns to a high-fidelity expert to assist him in assembling his dream system. The expert may be a local consultant, a dealer, or a magazine that the prospective buyer trusts as a source of accurate, down-to-ear information.

If this seeker of high-fidelity truth is wise, he will consult one expert and no more. The more expert opinions he gets, the more confused he will become, because every expert opinion will be different from all other expert opinions.

About the only thing that all high-fidelity experts agree about is that high-fidelity is supposed to be realistic sound reproduction. They may even agree that Marantz amplifiers are pretty good, and that Thorens makes a passable turntable. But try to pin them down about pickups, or other amplifiers, or tuners, or particularly loudspeakers, and one expert's preference is another one's anathema.

Of course, any expert worth his salt can tell you why there is so much disagreement. The reason? Well, the other experts, although very nice guys, don't really know what they're talking about. Oh, they're pretty good technical men, mind you, but they don't really have the perceptive ear that's needed for a truly valid musical evaluation of reproduced sound.

This is the crux of the matter. Measurements can help to describe a component's performance, but the final criterion for judging reproduced fidelity has always been the ear, and when we start to fall back on subjective judgments, we always end up with a diversity of opinions.

It isn't just that "different people hear things differently." Everybody who hears is responding to a set of pressure variations in the air around him, and if these are the same in the living room as they would be in the concert hall, each listener will hear an absolutely realistic replica of the original sounds, regardless of the idiosyncrasies of his own hearing. His ears may have a few response peaks and no response at all above 4000cps, but these weirdities will affect his hearing whether he listens to the original or to the reproduction, so they shouldn't affect his evaluation of the reproduced sound. Except for one thing: The listener with non-existent hearing above 4000cps will be oblivious to any system irregularities above that frequency.


The human ear differs in its degree of tolerance to distortion, too. Obviously, the person with high-frequency hearing losses will miss any distortion that is limited to the upper range, but even people with identical hearing acuity vary in their sensitivity to small amounts of distortion that fall within their range of response.
A listener can train his ears to pick out all kinds of details in the reproduced sound—peaks, dips, phase shift, imbalance and the like—but many such trained ears have never heard a live orchestra, so they are hardly qualified to tell you what is and what is not realistic. Also, if they have never heard a system with really low distortion or really smooth response (which many experts have not), they will be oblivious to small amounts of muddiness or roughness that will be quite evident to someone who is accustomed to listening to a truly top-quality system.

Listeners with identical hearing acuity and identical standards of judgment will usually be highly critical of different aspects of a system's performance. Thus, expert A may be terribly, terribly critical of what happens in the high treble range, expert B may be hypercritical of bass, and expert C may have a Thing about middle-range smoothness or "coloration."

We can see how this might influence their judgment of, say, a loudspeaker system. If it is a bit rough at the top, smooth through the middle range, and bass-shy, expert A won't like it much; it will offend his critical ear for treble. Expert C won't be too crazy about it either, because of the low-end deficiency, but expert B, even while admitting that "the top isn't as smooth as I have heard," and "the low end leaves a little bit to be desired," will just as likely sum it up as "one of the most natural, musical-sounding speakers" he has tested.

They can all hear the speaker's shortcomings, in the sense that the treble peaks and bass thinness will register on their hearing mechanism, but each picks out that aspect of its performance that is of particular concern to him, and tends to judge it mainly on the basis of that aspect.

No equipment critic worth his salt will judge a component solely by one criterion, but it is not at all unusual for an equipment reporter to "slant" his evaluations on the basis of a few things which he considers to be of particular importance. As a matter of fact, it is almost impossible for him to avoid doing this, at least to some extent.

High fidelity may be a science, but it isn't an exact science. There are enough things about it that aren't understood to leave room for a goodly amount of educated opinion. This is one field, though, where one man's opinion is not as good as another's.

Many writers of books and articles about high fidelity advise the prospective buyer merely to choose what sounds good to him. Certainly there is no sense in anybody's choosing a music system whose sound he doesn't like, but in a field where definite standards of quality exist, simply liking something does not necessarily mean that it is good, by those standards. A person who likes abstract art, for instance, may be judging it by any number of criteria, but resemblance to the original scene is not one of them. If it were evaluated on the basis of its "fidelity," or resemblance to the original scene, it would have to be judged a very poor copy. Similarly, the listener who prefers his sound shrill and brassy is perfectly entitled to his preference, but he is not choosing on the basis of fidelity, either.

This raises the question of whether high-fidelity can, or should be, better than the real thing. Certainly it can be made to sound richer, or bigger, or more highly detailed in a recording than it ever is in the concert hall, and the net result may actually be more exciting than anything heard at a live performance. The gimmicked recording may even, on occasion, serve the intent of the music better than a concert hall performance, but whether it sounds better or worse than the original, it is not true to the original, and thus cannot be considered a high-fidelity reproduction.

Sound recording may eventually become a creative art in its own right, producing musical sounds that bear no relation to any natural sounds. Indeed, some branches of it—pops and so-called electronic music—are already well on their way in that direction. This is not high fidelity, though, and there's no sense pretending that it is.

As long as we are concerned with the realistic reproduction of sound, the original sound must stand as the criterion by which the reproduction is judged, and most hi-fi experts agree that this is as it should be. The problem, however, lies in defining this original that is to be duplicated.

F'rinstance, take one symphony orchestra, place it on-stage in one concert hall, and then try listening to it from a) the front row, b) the twentieth row, and c) the fourth row of the second balcony (or peanut gallery). The orchestra will sound quite different from each location, so which of its sounds is the one that best represents the orchestra? Obviously, the sound that is heard from the best seat is the best representation of the orchestral sound, but who is going to claim that his preference for a seating location is the only valid preference, and that anyone who prefers to sit elsewhere has bad judgment? Nobody but a dyed-in-the-wool nut will take this attitude.

YNWaN
05-02-2009, 23:55
I entirely agree with the posts made by Clive (which has saved me a lot of tedious typing).

Clive
06-02-2009, 00:01
I entirely agree with the posts made by Clive (which has saved me a lot of tedious typing).

I'm glad I have a useful purpose in life. :):

Marco
06-02-2009, 00:21
Mark, that's fair enough. I presume though that you also believe in attention to detail in terms of set-up, which is certainly indicated by your comment below, plucked from your system pictures thread:


everything is VERY carefuly set up and positioned.


;)

Marco.

P.S Colin, I'll come back to you tomorrow - right now it's... :goodnight:

Steve Toy
06-02-2009, 03:06
I may get blacker blacks, or higher highs, or less grain or bigger soundstage if I paid such level of attention to detail, but to be honest I doubt it, what I would not get is any more emotion out of the disc.

Colin,

My experience is that paying such level of attention to detail isn't about improving the mere and rather subtle presentational aspects that you mention above but about improving musical communication through your system. By this I mean timing, dynamics, coherence, texture, inflection, being able to discern more easily the fundamental pitch of notes as well as the overall harmonic structure and the overall musical performance hanging together to showcase the ability of a group of musicians to play in time together as well as highlight individual performances.

Sure, if you know a particular recording well, or better still have seen the live event or maybe just have a strong idea in your head of how real live music sounds, you'll mentally fill in the gaps left by a system riddled with high frequency distortion, phase anomolies, time smear, notes running into one another, limp dynamics and one-note bass, all of which are the result of microphony.

Reducing the effects of microphony is about hearing the subtleties of excellent musicianship rather than subtle but largely irrelevant sonic differences. A well setup system comprising of modestly priced components will outperform in musical satisfaction terms one ten times the price or more that has simply been thrown together or assembled with aesthetics or unobtrusiveness taking priority over its ability to reproduce recorded music.

Marco
06-02-2009, 10:15
Indeed, Steve - we're talking about fundamental differences here to the musical communication abilities of a system, not prosaic hi-fi wankery! :)

Colin,


My system is in a listening room as well, just not (from choice) my private domain, and even if it was, having used mana and sound org tables in the past I will not be using them again.


That's your prerogative of course; I, however, never 'close the door shut' like that on anything in hi-fi. If someone convinces me that something I had previously dismissed as ineffective or unsuitable might need revisiting then I will duly do so. It's not the first time I've did this and found out that for whatever reason my previous conclusion was wrong. I believe that one should always remain open-minded in these matters.

Oh, and like you, my music listening room is far from being my "private domain" ;)


The assumption that they are not used because the wife would object may say much more about you than me.


I wasn't suggesting that to you at all - why be so defensive? I was merely making a general point that some people's hi-fi considerations are restricted by WAF, which is a fact, and that it doesn't apply to me. I'm pleased that you're also free from this often unfair and rather selfish situation.


The rest of it from my experiance falls into the belt camp, I have yet to hear noticeable changes to the sound of a system from swapping one well made cable for another, one rack for another...


That's fine, however, I'll ask you this: if someone were able to successfully demonstrate to you that they could make a genuine improvement to your system from using alternative stands or cables would you be open-minded enough to re-evaluate your opinion, or simply be stubborn and refuse to admit that you could hear a difference?


The other stuff may well be audible to some, but not to me, or it simply may be the differences individually are so small I simpy can not be bothered to listen for them.


Why not add "so far" to your above statement or do you honestly believe that you've heard all there is to hear in hi-fi and have nothing new to learn? I've found it pays to 'never say never'...


It could also be that I am looking for something very different in music reproduction in the home. I have stopped listening to the system, and simply listen to the music.


LOL. We've all heard that old mantra before. Do you honestly think that you're the only one here capable of doing this? That's exactly my situation, too, Colin. I don't sit there and constantly obsess with my system - I listen to music, but that doesn't stop me experimenting if I consider it worthwhile. I guess that some people will always be more easily satisfied than others, and some will always be willing to go the extra mile to get the absolute best out of the things they own. This applies to many things in life, not just hi-fi systems.


A little example, the last disc I played tonight was lady in satin, by the time this was recorded her voice was to a great extent shot to pieces, the recording quality is OK, the remastering is OK, but the emotion in the recording comes flooding out. Highly revealing system or not, anal levels of attention to detail or not, flash hi-fi rack or dod of cardboard and particle board from Ikea or MFI not withstanding, that does not change.


I know where you're coming from but I disagree. For me, the better my system is set-up the more effectively it is able to communicate the musical message, thus the more I'm able to hear the emotion in recordings such as you've described. Inferior equipment supports and cables, for me, muddy the music and dilute the pleasure of the listening experience.

I think it's important to get across that as far as I'm concerned with system set-up I'm not taking about chasing hi-fi subtleties, but rather something much more fundamentally important to my system's reproduction of music, as Steve has correctly described.

Perhaps you haven't heard the benefits Steve or I have experienced with equipment supports and cables, but that may only mean that so far you haven't used the right ones, not in fact that you can't hear any difference... You should consider that carefully.


I may get blacker blacks, or higher highs, or less grain or bigger soundstage if I paid such level of attention to detail, but to be honest I doubt it, what I would not get is any more emotion out of the disc.


Like I said, it's not about "blacker blacks", "higher highs" or any superficial nonsense like that. And how can you say categorically that you would not get any more emotion out of recordings? If you improve a system's ability to communicate the musical message then, quite simply, you in turn improve its ability to extract more emotion from recordings. Setting up a hi-fi system properly using the right stands and cables is about providing it with a platform from which it can resolve more musical information on discs, records, or whatever, and thus provide one with greater insight into our favourite recordings. Done properly, this can only increase one's emotional involvement with music.


May be the sig below this says more about my attitude to hi-fi than anything else I can type in these boxes.


If that's the case, Colin, then why not simply just buy a cheap midi system from Curry's and be done with it?

Specialist audio forums such as this are about people who enjoy high fidelity sound as well as having a passion for music; as such our inquisitive and enquiring minds will always go the extra mile to try to discover new things which help increase the enjoyment of our favourite music - this is what AOS is about. The fact that you post here and also on other similar sites suggests that you feel there is still more to learn and to be had from your system, although sometimes it seems you try your best to hide it! ;)

Marco.

Colin
06-02-2009, 11:16
I hopefully do not have a closed mind, and have tried at various times a number of different racks, cables, and set up’s of my system.
I did actually manage to convince myself for a short while that different cables sounded different, I have since discovered that to me they do not. It is quite possible that some one could change the cables, and one of the ‘’brands’’ would sound a little different, at that point I would conclude that if 9 out of 10 cables sound the same, and one sounds different, then the chances are the different one is in effect broken.
Would I accept that different racks can sound different, yes, because different materials must have some bearing on the room acoustic if nothing else. In fact I would be more inclined to think that reflection ( lack of or type of) from the rack is more of a reason for the sound within in a room to change than any magic potion rubbed onto the rack during manufacture.
I’m pleased you find my mantra amusing, no I don’t believe I’m the only one with that view, equally I do not believe that I’m not the only one that does not find that obsessive attention to the minute details of set up worthwhile. Simple good house keeping such as keeping signal cables away from power cables, and not looping and threading cables together yes, for ease of access if for nothing else.
Why do I not buy a cheap system from Curry’s or Comet, I do, I have a cheap onkyo system in the bedroom, a cheap second hand system in the office (pc source sansui amp (very aged) and AE speakers.
These systems are fine for what they are for, but they do not hold my attention they way the main system does. I am however more inclined to think that spending both time in selection of, and matching of the system will benefit me more than any amount of cash lavished on cables, stands, or any other accessory
It may well be because I am prepared to use the cheap system I find the cost of the ‘’specialst’’ hi-fi accessories, such as racks and cables to be little short of obscene. In my day job I am frequently called upon to justify the cost of a manufactured item we are supplying to a customer, (it is the nature of the industry), I would love to see some of the cable makers placed in the same position. I doubt they will be, as it not the nature of the industry.
Specialist audio forums are as much, or more about the main pieces of equipment than the associated accessories, and I use them to try and keep abreast of the available equipment, and establish what should be on my audition list when I next wish to change one box or another. I will hopefully be changing my deck this year, and one or two of the possibilities on the’ to audition’ list would not be known to me where it not for the forums.

Marco
06-02-2009, 12:39
Colin,


I did actually manage to convince myself for a short while that different cables sounded different...


You see, using that sort of negative language is part of the problem. Why word your perfectly valid experience in a way which implies that you were somehow 'duped' or were imagining things? It could in fact have been that the difference you heard was genuine! And even if it wasn't, that's not to say that some other cables wouldn't have made a genuine difference. It's this 'black & white' way of analysing things that I'm struggling with, but you're far from being the only one who exhibits this, I'm sorry, simplistic and rather closed-minded thinking. The effect of cables in systems is far from universal, so each type should be analysed on its own merit and on an individual basis.


I have since discovered that to me they do not.


Again, you're 'closing the door' with an attitude of 'I've heard a few cables and none of them to me have made a difference, so as far as I'm concerned that's the case - end of'. Why not retain an open mind and consider that what you've heard so far is only relevant at this point in time? New experiences could change your opinion, unless you were too stubborn to acknowledge them and do so.


It is quite possible that some one could change the cables, and one of the ‘’brands’’ would sound a little different, at that point I would conclude that if 9 out of 10 cables sound the same, and one sounds different, then the chances are the different one is in effect broken.


Possibly so, but why should that automatically be the case? Why should anything be "broken"? The cable could just be better! You could instead work on the principle of 'if it sounds better then it IS better', and then assess things over a period of time to confirm that's the case, or perhaps you don't trust your ears sufficiently or have faith in your own hearing acuity? I must admit to finding this condition amongst some enthusiasts quite perplexing. Thank goodness it is something that I don't suffer from myself.


Would I accept that different racks can sound different, yes, because different materials must have some bearing on the room acoustic if nothing else.


So if that's the case then why not give "house room" to the rack which makes your equipment perform at its (absolute) best in your room, rather than plonking it on any old furniture and compromising its performance in the process? Maybe I'm wrong though and have missed the fact that you're using a properly designed equipment support of some description... What exactly are you using in that respect at the moment?


In fact I would be more inclined to think that reflection ( lack of or type of) from the rack is more of a reason for the sound within in a room to change than any magic potion rubbed onto the rack during manufacture.


See there you go again with that negative terminology... Why should "magic potions be rubbed onto racks during manufacture"? Could it not be instead that the design principles of certain equipment supports actually work as intended? In my experience, that's precisely what happens. You appear to be showing signs of insecurity by worrying that you're always being ripped off - sure it happens with some stuff, but to tar all these products with the same brush is in my opinion rather blinkered.


I’m pleased you find my mantra amusing, no I don’t believe I’m the only one with that view, equally I do not believe that I’m not the only one that does not find that obsessive attention to the minute details of set up worthwhile.


Who's 'obsessing'? All I do is experiment if something is brought to my attention which I feel is worth investigating, and then implement it if I consider whatever it is offers an improvement. However, once done, I then return to listening to the music in the normal fashion and enjoy the improved sound quality/level of musical communication which the upgrade or 'tweak' has brought about. That's called 'going the extra mile' to get the best out of my system, not 'obsessing'. Most of the time my system just sits there doing its thing and I listen to music.


Simple good house keeping such as keeping signal cables away from power cables, and not looping and threading cables together yes, for ease of access if for nothing else.


Indeed - and once done it's done. There is no need for 'obsessing' any further; that's exactly my policy. I don't sit there twiddling with my cables every two minutes, but it's important to take the time arranging them properly in the first place.


Why do I not buy a cheap system from Curry’s or Comet, I do, I have a cheap onkyo system in the bedroom, a cheap second hand system in the office (pc source sansui amp (very aged) and AE speakers.
These systems are fine for what they are for, but they do not hold my attention they way the main system does.


Aha... Now we're getting somewhere! That last bit is extremely important and is the difference between a (genuinely) musically rewarding hi-fi system and just some non-descript collection of boxes emitting a bland sound to fill the room. It is precisely for that reason (to get a system that holds my attention with music) that I go to the nth detail with setting it up, simply because experience tells me that doing so releases the hidden magic in components that often isn't realised otherwise. If you appreciate superb sound as well as great music why settle for anything less?


I am however more inclined to think that spending both time in selection of, and matching of the system will benefit me more than any amount of cash lavished on cables, stands, or any other accessory


I'm with you on the synergy thing but I think that you set a dangerous precident by placing the most emphasis on that aspect of system building whilst ignoring the importance of optimising set-up. I've heard too many systems thrown together any old way containing very expensive boxes and speakers (often from the same manufacturer) sound quite frankly dreadful, compared to far more modest costing systems where great attention has been paid to optimising set-up. It's like that old saying goes... The devil is in the details! ;)


It may well be because I am prepared to use the cheap system I find the cost of the ‘’specialst’’ hi-fi accessories, such as racks and cables to be little short of obscene.


I agree - some of it is, but equally so, some of it isn't. It's important to differentiate between the two and not place everything under the one category. As far as cables go, for example, I use Mark Grant interconnects shown here costing £20:

http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=43_1

and Belden speaker cable here costing £2.25 per metre:

http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=46_21&zenid=eil67urs2u29tnutitdt0e2pi1

You don't have to spend a fortune on cables to get very high quality ones - all you need to know is where to look!

And of course, high quality ones make an audible improvement over ones which are inferior, due to the purity of materials used in their construction, thus ensuring greater signal conductivity and integrity, and also a host of other factors... This is not "foo"; these are basic facts, and the sonic effects of this in a revealing system are not imagined.


Specialist audio forums are as much, or more about the main pieces of equipment than the associated accessories, and I use them to try and keep abreast of the available equipment, and establish what should be on my audition list when I next wish to change one box or another.

That's fine, but surely you can also learn about experimenting with other things than just the boxes and consider it valid and potentially rewarding to do so? The difference between you and I is that I don't see stands and cables as merely "accessories" - they are vital components in a system, integral to its success of portraying recorded music faithfully and enjoyably, the same as with any carefully chosen equipment or speakers.

Marco.

Steve Toy
06-02-2009, 14:37
no I don’t believe I’m the only one


This was a lovely little gem I found above. It is the notion of finding safety in numbers when you don't want to leave your comfort zone. If lots of other people are happy to wear blinkers then does that justify you doing so too? Hmmm!

Lots of people think that if you wear your coat indoors you won't feel its benefit when you go outside....

Lots of people think very cold weather kills the bugs. By bugs they mean germs.

Must be true then.

So lets all stay well within our comfort zones, in numbers for maximum safety and self-justification.

No, no, NOOOO! This is not what the Art of Sound is about. Here we are about trusting your ears and having an open mind and then reaping the rich rewards from so doing.

The beauty of the tweakery we mention is that it doesn't cost a fortune. OK, a new REVO rack is going to cost you £1250 but there are lots of s/h acrylic Qs Ref racks going for buttons. I was talking to Mark Grant only today. Isn't it a scandal that his no-nonsense but well-designed cables costing peanuts outperform others costing hundreds or thousands of pounds?

As for proper cable dressing, making sure cables don't touch walls, skirting boards or each other where possible can bring huge benefits and at what cost?

F*ck all!

There really is only one way to find out...

Steve Toy
06-02-2009, 14:54
That's fine, but surely you can also learn about experimenting with other things than just the boxes and consider it valid and potentially rewarding to do so? The difference between you and I is that I don't see stands and cables as merely "accessories" - they are vital components in a system, integral to its success of portraying recorded music faithfully and enjoyably, the same as with any carefully chosen equipment or speakers.

To add: The Artist's Palette section of this forum exists for a reason....

YNWaN
06-02-2009, 15:15
Mark, that's fair enough. I presume though that you also believe in attention to detail in terms of set-up, which is certainly indicated by your comment below, plucked from your system pictures thread:



;)

Marco.

P.S Colin, I'll come back to you tomorrow - right now it's... :goodnight:

Yep, absolutely I am. Cable dressing - you bet, absolutely level and rigid - you bet, bias, azimuth and tracking weight, just so - you bet, setting my speakers up with laser pointer and jig to within 1 or 2mm - you bet, etc, etc......anyway, you get the idea.

However, I'm quite unconvinced that mains, or signal, cables are affected by vibration from the floor or (even less) from the walls. I did experiment with foam blocks to raise my speaker cable from the floor and was quite underwhelmed by the result. I still have the foam though and will try it again this afternoon.

Steve Toy
06-02-2009, 15:52
However, I'm quite unconvinced that mains, or signal, cables are affected by vibration from the floor or (even less) from the walls. I did experiment with foam blocks to raise my speaker cable from the floor and was quite underwhelmed by the result. I still have the foam though and will try it again this afternoon.


Mark, this thread isn't about opinions. It's about experience. You've missed the point anyway because the cables themselves are unaffected by vibration, The kit they are plugged into is affected though. Think! Energy transfer down a cable and I don't mean current or signal either.

Note also that if there is a bottleneck in the system somewhere, especially at source or preamp or what they are sitting on, you won't hear any benefits from addressing microphony elsewhere. I've had experiences of cables making no diffrence. I've later addressed a microphony problem selsewhere and then been able to hear a big difference!

Now, those of you who are prepared to experiment, do you just want to prove a point or improve your systems's music conveying ability? You may have to be more thorough to achieve the latter than the former.

Colin
06-02-2009, 16:55
As the ‘’I don't believe ‘’was in response to a question, I fail to see what the balance of the statement is driving at. I do not need to find safety in numbers thanks, I am happy enough to make my own choices.
As am I prepared to experiment, as I have already stated , I have tried various rack’s, and cables and found no difference, does that sound closed minded, I have tried differing cables, as it would seem have you. You found differences, fine that’s your experience, I did not, that’s mine. It would however seem that some experiences are more valid than others.
To explain a little more I heard differences when I knew the cable had been changed, when I did not know, I was unaware of the change audibly. If that is being closed minded , rather than closed eyed, then so be it
It could of course be that I dropped lucky first time around and that Van Damme cable, well made into I/C’s and speaker cable, or basic Chord stuff is as good as it needs to be.
As I have already pointed out, I have absolutely NO interest at all in having a quadraspire acrylic rack in my house, whatever the cost. ( I assume the fact that there are lots on the market for buttons reflects their true value, unless the next greatest thing has arrived on the market)
This started because I ask ‘’ define proper equipment rack please, avoiding if possible anything that is made from plexiglass, angle iron, and square section tube, and if possible does not include glass shelves.’’
And was told the quadraspire acrylic rack was--- one person acrylic is another s plexiglass.
A far as negative attitude’s go, I was very eager to be shown these night and day differences that racks, cables, and set up can show. I have yet to find any real proof of any of it, beyond carrying out what I would regard as good house keeping, by which I mean keeping signal cables away from power cables, not platting the blasted things into bows etc, and using as far as possible a common earth, and probably show a reasonable amount of skepticism to the entire thing.
My rack is a very basic lump of compressed crap from Ikea, but I have found that the ‘’egg tray ’’ filling in these units seems to be very good for electronics to stand on. Well it must be, it sounds the same, or at least very very similar to any specialist racks I have tried.
As I said before, if trying stuff and finding it to pretty much the same as that already in use fits into the AoS description of closed minded then sorry for wasting your bandwidth, it would seem I am closed minded .

Clive
06-02-2009, 17:08
In the interests of trying to understand why these discussions are taking place I've started a new thread:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2027

YNWaN
06-02-2009, 18:12
Mark, this thread isn't about opinions. It's about experience. You've missed the point anyway because the cables themselves are unaffected by vibration, The kit they are plugged into is affected though. Think! Energy transfer down a cable and I don't mean current or signal either.

Note also that if there is a bottleneck in the system somewhere, especially at source or preamp or what they are sitting on, you won't hear any benefits from addressing microphony elsewhere. I've had experiences of cables making no diffrence. I've later addressed a microphony problem selsewhere and then been able to hear a big difference!

Now, those of you who are prepared to experiment, do you just want to prove a point or improve your systems's music conveying ability? You may have to be more thorough to achieve the latter than the former.

Please don't patronise me, I am well aware of the mechanism you believe to be at work. I hesitated from directly making a criticism, but as you insist; I have 'thought' about the mechanism you describe and frankly I would urge you to 'think about it' a little more. If you do, I am sure you will realise how tiny the energy levels are that you describe. I realise that you hold the music works products in high esteem - do doubt they do provide a beneficial effect, but not because they isolate the equipment from mechanically conducted vibration (with regard to cables).

I would also like to point out that experience leads to the formation of opinion (this is how my opinion has been formed - through first hand experience). If you would like me to rephrase - my experience is that the mechanism for colouration that you describe does not exist with relation to interconnect, mains cables, or speaker cables.

Anyway, I will leave you to it; you clearly have your views on the matter and I have mine. However, no attempt at belittling my experience, system or technical knowledge will convince me that the pseudo science you put forward as an explanation is in any way a reality.

Ali Tait
06-02-2009, 18:21
Colin you are not alone in the use of Ikea stuff,many I know use it and find it excellent.One person who's ears I trust commented that it was "Torlyte on the cheap".I know more than one person who uses a "Lack" table to support their TT.

NRG
06-02-2009, 22:06
Daring to enter the lions den…

Audio equipment is known for being microphonic, even supposedly unaffected solid state amplifiers suffer to some degree from vibration even though at first glance the mechanisms for it may not be obvious.

Ceramic capacitors suffer from piezoelectric affects and inject noise back into the circuit when subjected to vibration, the commonly used Z5U variants are especially bad…even the SMD versions are not immune…there are better types available but the cost must be born in mind for the manufacturer.

With a PCB firmly bolted into a rigid chassis vibration can find its way to these capacitors. Also ceramic capacitor performance can be affected by the voltage modulation across them.

Valves are microphnic even with damper rings the internal elements are affected by sound waves and vibrations from within the amplifier itself like buzzing chokes and transformers. CD players are also affected by vibration and the effect is not subtle IME.

Turntables….well we all know how critical placement can be!

While keeping cables away from walls and floors may be bordering on the obsessive the need for good component isolation via the use of a well designed rack is a no brainer and can make or break a system IME. The rack needs to be stable and have the ability to either sink vibration or prevent it entering; the type of equipment feet and shelf type also has a noticeable effect on the sound…

Colin
06-02-2009, 22:27
Daring to enter the lions den…


. The rack needs to be stable and have the ability to either sink vibration or prevent it entering; the type of equipment feet and shelf type also has a noticeable effect on the sound…

which brings me back to where I came in, what is a well designed rack, not made from plexiglass (or acrylic), not containing angle iron, or rectangular tube, or glass shelves. The chances of me being able to borrow anything other than isoblue or hutter are remote. I have tried isoblue, and it is no different, in my experience, than the Ikea lump I have at the moment, and I personally find the hutter gear, while reasonably attractive unjustifiably priced, especially since the £ went backwards against the euro.
It could well be that the ''egg box'' internal structure of the Ikea unit I am currently using is good enough at vibration control that I do not need to change it. (It is the same construction on its top and bottom shelves as the lack table, and as I have 2 stacked, I have 4 of these egg box filled shelves)

Marco
06-02-2009, 23:04
The problem is, Colin, the really effective stands like QS Ref and multi-phase Mana (there's a big difference between the multi-phase stuff and just simply single racks) you don't like the look of and wouldn't have in your room!

Therefore for that reason I suspect that we'll never move forward with this argument - that and also you insisting on twisting things by ignoring the questions you were politely asked and instead putting a spin on them to suit your agenda. Clue: if you see a question mark at the end of a sentence in a response directed towards you then it requires an answer, or at least it should be addressed in its intended context, not the context in which you'd prefer to address it. You'd make a great politician! ;)

You might also like to consider that in order for stands to be truly effective they may have to look 'ugly' or 'weird', such is the nature of construction necessary to achieve their design principles…

Oh, and truly open-minded is when you're always willing to re-evaluate your opinions if necessary and be receptive to new ideas and change. You give me the impression that once your mind is made up about something, that's it, and there's no going back. That to me is not open-minded; more pig-headed and stubborn! Quite simply, truly open-minded people never set their opinions in stone.

Neil - I am in complete agreement with you and will comment more on this later. At the moment I will simply add that Naim, for example, went to great lengths in the design of their NAC552 preamp to suspend the internal circuit boards on leaf springs in an attempt to address the issue of microphony - they believe that this is a real phenomenon which is detrimental to performance and must be dealt with accordingly, and so do I. I know how fundamentally successful my Mana supports are at dealing with the effects of vibration and could demonstrate this to anyone, anytime, providing that they were genuinely open-minded, trusted their ears, and left any old prejudices behind where they belong!


the use of a well designed rack is a no brainer and can make or break a system IME. The rack needs to be stable and have the ability to either sink vibration or prevent it entering...


Hear, hear! Mana supports employ the former design philosophy and do it to great effect - basically, they are highly effective vibration sinks. Quite simply, my system would only achieve a fraction of its sonic potential without them.

More on this tomorrow - right now I'm off to listen to some tunes before hitting the sack :gig:

Laters,
Marco.

Filterlab
06-02-2009, 23:07
Whilst I'm not a fan of the look of the Quadraspire racks, I trust my ears and from the times I've heard equipment supported them I can certainly vouch for their remarkable sonic characteristics.

For that reason they command my respect.

Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 04:47
which brings me back to where I came in, what is a well designed rack, not made from plexiglass (or acrylic), not containing angle iron, or rectangular tube, or glass shelves. The chances of me being able to borrow anything other than isoblue or hutter are remote. I have tried isoblue, and it is no different, in my experience, than the Ikea lump I have at the moment, and I personally find the hutter gear, while reasonably attractive unjustifiably priced, especially since the £ went backwards against the euro.
It could well be that the ''egg box'' internal structure of the Ikea unit I am currently using is good enough at vibration control that I do not need to change it. (It is the same construction on its top and bottom shelves as the lack table, and as I have 2 stacked, I have 4 of these egg box filled shelves)


Colin, you've basically ruled out the two most effective options. I suspect sour grapes on your part here.



Please don't patronise me, I am well aware of the mechanism you believe to be at work.

Mark, don't feel patronised. The comment you made in a previous post (below) did indicate clearly that you had missed the point:



However, I'm quite unconvinced that mains, or signal, cables are affected by vibration from the floor or (even less) from the walls




I hesitated from directly making a criticism, but as you insist; I have 'thought' about the mechanism you describe and frankly I would urge you to 'think about it' a little more. If you do, I am sure you will realise how tiny the energy levels are that you describe. I realise that you hold the music works products in high esteem - do doubt they do provide a beneficial effect, but not because they isolate the equipment from mechanically conducted vibration (with regard to cables).


I can think long and hard to the point that my brain really really hurts and I finally convince myself that the energy levels are far too small to make any difference, but this will still be at odds with my experience. Theory like this is useless when it contradicts what you've actually heard!

Surely it is more fruitful to create the theory to support the finding rather than the other way round, don't you think?

Colin
07-02-2009, 07:07
My God, my agenda, ignoring questions, sour grapes., It really is difficult to have a discussion on this place if you fail to toe the party line.

I may not be as open minded as you would like, then again I may be, as to agenda and sour grapes. I do not have any agenda that I am aware of, unless questioning the ludicrous price of some of the products in the Hi-Fi market is looked upon as having an agenda. And which questions have I avoided?

From the comments received it would seem of all the racks on the market only two address the support question properly and work, of these, one was so successful it would seem to be unavailable, so irrelevant as a potential purchase, leaving one currently in production, and available to purchase.
Flooded market place then.

Marco
07-02-2009, 08:27
Colin,

No-one's asking you to "toe the party line" - far from it! We value different opinions here and do not expect anyone to 'conform' to our way of thinking, so please continue to offer your take on things.

You were however being a little evasive earlier by avoiding certain issues I had challenged you with, but there's no point going round and round in circles.

All I would ask, Colin, is that instead of conclusively dismissing out of hand the effects of stands and cables, after only auditioning a handful of examples, that you retain an open mind and consider the possibility that some of the ones you haven't tried, particularly stands you don't like the look of, may in fact do their job very effectively, that's all.

How would you react if I visited you with some QS Ref stands, for example, set your system up on them, and you listened, and thought "bloody hell, what a difference!"? Would you then revise your opinion of stands? [Note - this is a question I'd like answered, please] ;)

It could happen, you know, so don't rule out the possibility - and by that I mean their sonic effect, not the possibility that you'd put them in your room, which you've clearly indicated will never happen.

Like you (and everyone else) I've formed loads of opinions on hi-fi based on my experiences, but none of them are set in stone. My current opinions (e.g, valves are better than solid-state and direct-drive T/Ts are superior to belt-drive T/Ts) are only applicable at this moment in time, until such times as I discover something to the contrary which then forces me to re-evaluate them. It may never happen, of course, but that doesn't mean I won't entertain the possibility - that, IMO, is true open-mindedness.

I would simply ask that you consider doing the same with your views on stands and cables...

Surely that's not too difficult, is it? :)

Marco.

Colin
07-02-2009, 08:50
Cable, yes I would listen to any cable, and if i felt that any improvement I could detect had any kind of improvement/value correlation than I would change to that cable.

What do I mean by that, as an example, if a cable at, say £500 brought a improvement (change) to the system sound, then I would also want to hear what changes that £500 spent and a cartridge brought, and which to me represented the best way to spend the cash.

Racks, of course I would listen, but again, its a performance to cost thing, £1200 quid on a couple of racks, or £1200 on a deck?

QS ref, sorry, still a big no. In a different house may be, but not in this one, its hard to imagine anything looking more alien to its environment than two of those standing in the listening room, (well may be mana phases :))

Marco
07-02-2009, 09:13
Now we're getting somewhere, Colin - nice one :cool:


its hard to imagine anything looking more alien to its environment than two of those standing in the listening room...


It's interesting the different mindsets we have, which you've just highlighted, and of course it's simply a matter of our different priorities. You obviously see a hi-fi system as having to 'fit into' your living environment, whereas I optimise my living environment to suit my hi-fi (and thus music listening) needs.

For me, I don't give a donkey's bollocks what a stand looks like as long as it does its job effectively (and by that I mean dealing with the effects of vibration). Quite simply, after hearing the way that QS Ref and Mana fundamentally transform the performance of equipment it would not matter one iota to me if their respective designs fitted in with the environment they were occupying or not. As far as Mana is concerned, I happen to like its rather 'industrial' appearance, but even if I absolutely hated it, the fact that it does its job so effectively would completely outweigh my opinion of its aesthetics.

Jeez, I can even tell you that when we next move home priority No1 will be to find a house with the best possible room for the hi-fi system - I would honestly reject an otherwise 'ideal' house for purchase if it didn't meet that particular criterion. We're all different, and I guess that's what makes things interesting :)

Marco.

Colin
07-02-2009, 11:29
Not that different, when we were looking at moving house 2 or 3 years back we could not find a place with the required living space plus listening room, so we stayed put. So oddly, I would not buy a house without the possibility to have a listening room, but like to furnish room to suit my aesthetic requirements. Primitive and bizarre though they may be .

Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 11:58
Not primitive or bizarre just a different set of priorities. It is only when folks can't be honest about it that the soup grapes syndrome emerges.

Marco
07-02-2009, 13:09
Colin,


but like to furnish room to suit my aesthetic requirements. Primitive and bizarre though they may be.


That's perfectly normal of course, but with me I will always arrange the aesthetics of the room around what optimises the performance of the system. To do otherwise for me would be to compromise for the wrong reasons. Ultimately, I care more about listening to music and it being reproduced with the highest fidelity than I do about the decor of the room it's used in.

Let me ask you this question: if you heard the effect of QS Ref stands, for example, and they quite clearly transformed the performance of your system, would you thus accommodate them in your room or continue to reject them on the basis of them not appeasing your aesthetic sensibilities?

Marco.

Colin
07-02-2009, 15:01
No, the QS ref stand is that blasted contrived, I would not have it in the room. This is despite the fact that one of my pet dislikes is to have the system in between the speakers. I therefore have the speakers at one end the room, and the system at the other end. This has multiple benefits and drawbacks, but it means that I can not see the rack when listening, yet still I would not use the QS ref.

Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 15:29
My system is compromised to a degree by being between the speakers but this is due to lack of space.

Colin has some irrational loathing of the QS Ref stand.

Contrived?

It has been adapted from QS furniture. Not really to my taste either but then aesthetics are lower down my list of priorities.

Admit it Colin, you'll compromise your system sonically in order for it to look nice. There's nothing wrong with that but please at least admit it!!!!

Honesty is all we ask for. We all know you won't give it house room and you think it looks 'orrible but you've still not answered Marco's question. Sour grapes! :p

Marco
07-02-2009, 15:33
Oh, and I meant to comment about this earlier:


What do I mean by that, as an example, if a cable at, say £500 brought a improvement (change) to the system sound, then I would also want to hear what changes that £500 spent and a cartridge brought, and which to me represented the best way to spend the cash.


That's a sensible thing to do, however I would consider spending £500 on a new cartridge completely pointless if the sound it produced was then being strangled by some shit piece of wire further down the chain, say, the interconnects between the phono stage and the preamp (or preamp to power amp), and in the process losing whatever benefits were being produced by the cartridge upgrade.

In that instance the money would be far better spent on higher quality interconnects to maximise the integrity of the source music signal so that when upgrading later to a better cartridge its sonic potential would be fully realised instead of being masked by poor quality cables.

The test to do there would be to compare the results of installing a new £500 cartridge to the existing system with crap interconnects versus keeping the existing cartridge and upgrading the cables - which would give you more music? Providing the existing cartridge wasn't a total dog to start with, I know what my money would be on ;)


Racks, of course I would listen, but again, its a performance to cost thing, £1200 quid on a couple of racks, or £1200 on a deck?


Well my argument would be what's the point in having a £1200 deck if you can only hear £200 of its sound? - Far better to have a £200 deck and spend what is necessary to allow it to perform optimally through judicious selection of stands and cables. The problem is that people love 'boxes' because they're 'sexy' and stands and cables aren't...

To demonstrate my point (using a £1200 budget as an example): I'd rather listen to a Rega P1 with its basic Ortofon cartridge optimally set-up on a Phase 3 Mana turntable wall shelf than a P5 fitted with (name whatever cartridge you like which fits in with the budget) simply bunged any old way onto a sideboard, because I know from experience which would play music like it should sound and which wouldn't.

It's simply a question of understanding how fundamentally important it is to isolate equipment properly and protect the integrity of the source music signal, which the right stands and cables can do, and not see them as being merely "accessories" and of secondary importance.

Unfortunately until you hear what some other people and I have heard with stands and cables (and I suspect that you’re more than capable of doing so, given access to the right ‘bits’), you will continue seeing the quality of the equipment itself as the most important thing, which experience tells me is a fatal mistake to make.

Marco.

P.S Please note that high quality cables need not be expensive 'audiophile' ones, just well-designed no nonsense stuff which uses the best plugs and materials. I've already shown the ones I use from Mark Grant. Expensive 'audiophile' cables can sometimes be the worst of the lot!

Marco
07-02-2009, 15:38
Admit it Colin, you'll compromise your system sonically in order for it to look nice.


I think that judging by Colin's last reply the above is blatantly obvious!

Nothing wrong with that though, as long as you're honest and upfront about it and don't pretend otherwise ;)

Marco.

Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 15:38
Marco,

Pride of ownership always comes before optimising performance to some.

Marco
07-02-2009, 16:02
Indeed, but I'm not sure if Colin comes into that category. I think he's a little more discerning than that :)

Marco.

Colin
07-02-2009, 17:03
As i have said quite a few times I have tried quite a few cables and different racks in my system. I have decided that as far as cables go I am not going to find anything that improves on what I have. Racks- some like how they look some don't.
Nothing I post appears to make any difference to your responses,
I will not be buying a plastic rack from any maker, or searching for second hand mana racks. The other suggestions about pride of ownership, and sour grapes just leave me bemused to honest, its a bit like trying to talk to a bully in the school playground.

As I am obviously wasting my time on this forum, the mindsets are too different, I thank you for the use of your bandwidth and wish the forum well in the future.

Clive
07-02-2009, 17:14
I'm not surprised Colin feels this way. Some of the recent comments have been very sour (no pun intended), frankly rude and unbecoming of a forum admin.

Add in what seems to be a gratuitous pop at Mark (YNWaN), if this carries on I can see AoS going the way of many forums.

Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 17:19
Clive,

In what way have either Marco or I been insulting to anyone?

We are allowed to express our opinions as individuals regardless of the fact we may happen to be admin. Nobody is pulling rank here!

Colin,

In your post above you still avoid the issue of the rack impacting on the performance of the system, mentioning only its appearance.

The comment I made about pride of ownership wasn't aimed at you anyway. It was a general comment about the reasons why people spend money on hi-fi.

Marco
07-02-2009, 17:23
Well, I'm sorry Colin feels that way but if he's going to challenge us on what is considered as a 'proper' equipment rack, and defend his contrary viewpoint robustly, then he must expect the same in return. I hope he changes his mind but if he doesn’t then I wish him all the best.

We'll always tell it as we see it on AOS and if people can't handle that then I'm sorry, what's that saying again: if you can't handle the heat then stay out of the kitchen.

Clive, you're overreacting somewhat - quote me one example of my supposed 'rudeness'. I think some people must be easily offended by candidness and honesty! I will never shirk away from the 'difficult' subjects and will always say what I think. Get a grip for goodness sake, or perhaps I've hit a raw nerve?

Marco.

Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 17:26
I have encountered this before; honesty mistaken for rudeness.

Rudeness is deliberately causing offence. Honesty is about finding common ground.

I agree that those who cannot be honest should perhaps go elsewhere.

Clive
07-02-2009, 17:32
Marco, I wasn't referring to your comments, they tend to be robust and full on but that's all.

Steve, by saying things like sour grapes and then the honestly thing....if someone isn't being honest in your view then you are effectively calling them dishonest. The recent tone with Colin, if you read the posts, has been getting unpleasant. Then the comment about bumble bees seems gratuitous re YNWaN (maybe I missed something there). It looks like people have to agree with a particular view or else....

Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 17:43
Clive,
Or else what, exactly?

Marco
07-02-2009, 17:59
Fair enough, Clive. It was you simply referring to "admin" that confused the issue!

I think Steve suspected that Colin's hi-fi hobby was perhaps more subject to the WAF factor than he was letting on, that's all.

Regardless of that it's certainly clear that he places decor considerations of the room and the aesthetic qualities of stands before the ultimate performance of his system, otherwise he would use the QS Ref stands he so hates the look of if he heard them transforming the performance of his system with his own ears. This is fine of course but it's not really what we're about on AOS. We simply can't be all things to all people, so if Colin doesn't feel that he belongs here then that's fine - there are no sour grapes as far as we're concerned and should he change his mind at any point he is welcome back :)

Marco.

Clive
07-02-2009, 18:02
Clive,
Or else what, exactly?
A series of posts that are seemingly intended to wear down the victim until they confess their crimes and become "honest".

Glad to see the server is back, what happened?

Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 19:13
We could 'wear down the victim' without admin hats ;)

It was a 'database' error. It happens now and then.

Colin
07-02-2009, 19:20
Having been advised to some of the comments on here, I thought I should clarify one or two things, rather than let people assume the heat was too much,

Racks and choice.

Not WAF I assure you, my choice, If I decide to use something that the wife considers ugly, then I am told it is ugly, end of. Mr Toy can read into that what ever he wishes. What I objected to was quite simply being called dishonest. If Mr Toy feels I am being dishonest about something then if honesty is so important to him he should clarify the situation by pm rather than continuing to suffer from foot and mouth.

I do not have a problem with any one having one opinion and me another, as has been said before that is what makes life interesting, So for the sake of clarity, and honesty, I would not use a QS rack if I was given one, is that clear and honest enough.

The reason I so ''robustly defended the position'' is simply that if the suggested problems of vibration is as great as is being suggested, then I would have thought that manufactures of supports other than Mana and Quadraspire would have a product on the market that addressed the problem. especially since Mana is no more, One product addressing a major problem area takes a bit of accepting.
Instead of a possible alternate suggestion I am told that I have my priorities all wrong, the looks matter more than sound, (in general terms no, in the case of the QS, yes) if looks where more important than sound I could have found something much more ''bling'' than my current set up for similar cost. It was actually chosen for how it sounds.

It would appear that if any one on this forum challenges the corporate view in any way the will be in effect bullied until they accept that they are wrong. And before you dispute that you should read through some of the threads again with an open mind, or may be as a member of the forum, rather than as a Mod. The mere fact that some one had the audacity to challenge a AoS view of causing a server crash should really prompt you to think about it.

ps How do you know I am being honest about the wife, I may, or may not have one.

Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 19:42
colin, the server crash was a coincidence. I think...

Thanks for the clarity btw. I too fail to understand why other manufacturers have not designed stands that actually work.

I mentioned aesthetics not specifically your marital status. The term WAF can be used loosely.

Marco
07-02-2009, 20:46
Colin,

We appear to be going round in circles, but since I'm a glutton for punishment, then 'once more unto the breach'...


I do not have a problem with any one having one opinion and me another, as has been said before that is what makes life interesting, So for the sake of clarity, and honesty, I would not use a QS rack if I was given one, is that clear and honest enough.


That's fine, Colin, and as you've said that you'd not use one even if you heard with your own ears that it transformed the performance of your system, then it proves that, when it comes down to it, you're more concerned with looks than sound quality. Again that's fine, but it’s not a view we would share - no need to fall out about it, though :)


The reason I so ''robustly defended the position'' is simply that if the suggested problems of vibration is as great as is being suggested, then I would have thought that manufactures of supports other than Mana and Quadraspire would have a product on the market that addressed the problem.


There are plenty of products on the market that claim to address the problem - would you like me to list them all? The problem is, Colin, all of them think quite naturally that their products are just as effective as the two mentioned above, but my experience of using most of them suggests the contrary, however I won't get into that here as I'm not going to turn this thread into 'Stand Wars 9999'.

What I can assure you of though is that most of them will be better at dealing with the effects of microphony than the Ikea furniture you're using at the moment, and yes, I've used 'LACK' tables as supports in the past. They're ok (great value for money) but hardly the last word in dealing with decoupling equipment from the effects of vibration, which is not surprising as they were not designed for that purpose.

The problem you've got is that you're not willing to spend the money necessary to obtain something that's more effective as a proper hi-fi rack than your Ikea furniture because you see such things as mere "accessories" and not as fundamentally important parts of a system. Until you are willing to open your mind a bit more in that respect you will never 'get' where Steve and I are coming from. If you ever change your mindset on this matter come back to me and we'll chat about it more, but right now I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.


Instead of a possible alternate suggestion I am told that I have my priorities all wrong, the looks matter more than sound, (in general terms no, in the case of the QS, yes)


No one is telling you that you have your priorities all wrong - merely that your priorities appear not to be what optimises the performance of your system, but rather what makes it look nice, which I'm sure you'll agree is not exactly the norm on a specialist audio forum such as this where people value performance first and foremost above anything else, so therefore it's natural that you will be challenged on this. Nevertheless, you're entitled to your opinion as the bottom line is it's your money and your system.


if looks where more important than sound I could have found something much more ''bling'' than my current set up for similar cost. It was actually chosen for how it sounds.


Then if that's the case why not apply the same principles when choosing stands? I don't get how for you there are one set of rules for choosing equipment and another for the stands you use. If sound truly was the most important factor in your decision making then you wouldn't give a toss what a stand looked like as long as it optimised the performance of your system more than anything else you'd tried. But we know that's not the case, don't we?


It would appear that if any one on this forum challenges the corporate view in any way the will be in effect bullied until they accept that they are wrong.


I'm afraid that's utter bullshit. You can challenge "the corporate view" as much as you like, and as robustly as you like, but in doing so you should be prepared for the people who hold "the corporate view" to challenge your viewpoint equally as robustly in return! That's only fair isn't it? And, moreover, you should be able to handle the debate like a 'big boy' without throwing your toys out of the pram and claiming to have been "bullied"!

*That*, Colin, is what you're not grasping...

What would you expect us to do - just sit back and allow you to express an opinion which is completely contrary to ours, and what years of experience has told us, without us challenging it? Come on, mate, get real!


And before you dispute that you should read through some of the threads again with an open mind, or may be as a member of the forum, rather than as a Mod.


I've done so and I'm unable to read into it they way that you are obviously doing, certainly in terms of my input. We're having a debate, Colin, where adults on both sides are robustly defending their respective viewpoints, nothing else. If you can't handle that then perhaps this may not be the forum for you. Much as you are welcome here I would give that some very careful thought.

Marco.

Colin
07-02-2009, 21:33
Don't worry, you will not have to go around in circles in a discussion with me again.

I am however pleased that you fully understand my decision, and the reason not to buy a specialist hi-fi rack. Obviously being a moderator on this forum gives you some special insight into my finances.

I am sure I should have bowed to the advise of the great and good, rushed out and purchased a QS whatever and regretted the decision ever after, but it does sound so good, I mean it must do, Marco and Mr Toy told me so.

I am quite prepared to spend on Hi-Fi rack, should I feel it offers value for money, ( My Money, therefore My Values).

Rather than inflict upon you and Steve the need to bang your heads against a wall, enjoyable though that spectacle may be I'll will readily admit that this is not really the forum for me and say goodnight.

Marco
07-02-2009, 21:45
Dear oh dear, he still doesn't get it... :mental:

He must have missed this bit:


Nevertheless, you're entitled to your opinion as the bottom line is it's your money and your system.


Ciao, Colin. No hard feelings :wave:

Marco.

Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 22:20
The door is left open for Colin + there is still plenty of other stuff to talk about.

Marco
07-02-2009, 23:03
Indeed. The problem is he doesn't seem to understand that all we were doing was asking him to be a bit more open minded about stands and to consider (I stress the word) that he might not have heard all there is to hear in that respect. We weren't telling him that we were right and he was wrong!

Despite me having experimented with and used most stands on the market at some point, I still don't consider that I've learned all there is to learn with them, in particular what effect they have on the performance hi-fi equipment. It's a complex subject and the same goes for many other aspects of hi-fi, and yet Colin's tried one or two stands (and cables) and thinks he knows all there is to know about them... :confused:

Why do some people have such rigid and inflexible opinions?

Life is a constant learning curve, never mind the subject of hi-fi! You can't ever think that you know all there is to know about anything. I guess that some folk just don't like going out with their comfort zones...

Marco.

fraser.
07-02-2009, 23:32
i've read a few threads tonight that made me think wtf is going on here... I can see why colin left and i'll be following his lead, bye chaps

Marco
07-02-2009, 23:35
Oh for goodness sake...

If someone's jumping off a cliff, why not follow them, eh?

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
08-02-2009, 01:20
Colin,

..........and as you've said that you'd not use one even if you heard with your own ears that it transformed the performance of your system, then it proves that, when it comes down to it, you're more concerned with looks than sound quality.

Sorry lads, but I've got to wade in here a little.

This statement is typical, Marco, of the problem with typing thoughts on a forum. It's often more important to get the thoughts down in precis, than it is to think them through.

Your conclusion is flawed - and badly.
Your situation, though different to Colin's, is that you are more concerned with sound quality than looks. That's fine & perfectly valid.

However a different situation to that is not necessarily the converse one. There are other factors at work than just looks and sound quality -

1. It is possible to care about sound quality but not be in a position to do all that you might to address it.

2. I wouldn't & couldn't have a heap of angle iron such as you do under my gear for all the tea in China. Does that mean I care less about sound quality than you?

...........No

Does that mean I care more about aesthetics than sound quality?

..........No


It means I have a different situation, a different set of challenges and a different set of solutions.

Marco
08-02-2009, 02:03
Hi TGW,

That's a thoughtful and open-minded post, and one that's tackling things from a slightly different angle :)


This statement is typical, Marco, of the problem with typing thoughts on a forum. It's often more important to get the thoughts down in precis, than it is to think them through.


You're absolutely right. Forums are a hive of miscommunication and thus misunderstandings, but some people seem to make the most of it better than others. Neil, for example, has an excellent attitude and grasp of what is expected of people here on AOS, and you're doing not too badly yourself! Others, well, perhaps some are a lost cause... I guess that one can never please all the people all the time.


Your conclusion is flawed - and badly.
Your situation, though different to Colin's, is that you are more concerned with sound quality than looks. That's fine & perfectly valid.

However a different situation to that is not necessarily the converse one.


That's fair enough and I understand that. However, if you were presented with a stand which you heard utterly transform the performance of your system, despite having heard others stands fail miserably on that score, and you could afford to buy it, then surely not doing so based solely on the fact that you don't like the look of it suggests that you're prioritising looks over performance? I don't really see how it could be taken any other way.

Colin just doesn't strike me as someone who's willing to go to the nth degree to get the most performance from his system (or even cares about much above 'adequate' - now that's absolutely fine, but instead of being honest and upfront about it he tries to wriggle his way out by attempting to discredit me for challenging him on it. What's that all about? :confused:


There are other factors at work than just looks and sound quality -

1. It is possible to care about sound quality but not be in a position to do all that you might to address it.


Indeed of course, and that could well be the case, but it's important that people are honest about it and don't try to pretend otherwise!


2. I wouldn't & couldn't have a heap of angle iron such as you do under my gear for all the tea in China. Does that mean I care less about sound quality than you?

...........No


That's fine as it's your choice, but what was getting me about Colin was that he wasn't willing to be open-minded enough to accept that there might be some stands out there that would meet his needs - as far as he was concerned he'd tried a few, found that they didn't work for him, so he just gives up altogether and forms this rigid and inflexible opinion that stands universally don't make any difference instead of retaining an open mind on the matter.

I'm sorry but I just can't understand that type of mentality :scratch:


It means I have a different situation, a different set of challenges and a different set of solutions.


Indeed, but at least you're open-minded and honest enough to admit that and not pretending otherwise just to save face! That's a whole different ball game...

Marco.

Clive
08-02-2009, 10:12
Marco,

I could bang on about if you are so serious about vibration control that you should think hard about doing something like Neal has done, ie get at least your TT away from your room. But I won't flog a dead horse.

I have to say that the intensity of some of posts do come across as schoolyard bullying. Having met you I don't believe you intend this to be so, indeed if we all met I expect we'd all get on so much better. The typed word is so often a source of mis-communication.

I know you are just wanting to get your points across because you believe in them passionately. However this translates into your wanting to have the last word, this is the wearing down and bullying aspect that I don't believe you realise is happening.

Cheers,

Clive

Primalsea
08-02-2009, 10:46
I have to agree that after reading all this I agree with Clive, however its par for the course. None of us a honed wordsmiths and even if we were we just dont have the time to consider in great detail the syntax of what we post. This means that almost any post can be taken the wrong way. Many of the things we post would be fine if said face to face as they would come across in the manner intended. Hopefully many of us will meet at the show in March and that will help us not to get too wrapped up in what is posted on the forum. At the end of the day we are talking about inanimate objects and seem to take any challange to our choices as a deep and wounding character assassination.

Marco
08-02-2009, 11:04
Clive,

Point taken, but come on, we're all big boys here and so should be tough enough to handle a robust debate without going into a huff like a big girl :)

All I'm asking is that people remain genuinely open-minded about every aspect of hi-fi without setting their opinions in stone. I really don't think that's too much to ask.

Anyway, back on topic...


I could bang on about if you are so serious about vibration control that you should think hard about doing something like Neal has done, ie get at least your TT away from your room. But I won't flog a dead horse.


It's not a matter of "flogging a dead horse" - I've already mentioned that this isn't practical for me to do at the moment so why keep bringing it up?

Dressing cables and using equipment supports which are extremely effective as vibration sinks is practical for me to do, moving my turntable isn't.

Have you ever used specialist equipment supports in the style of Mana or QS Reference, Clearlight Audio, Soild Tech, etc? - Stuff that actually has a genuine design principle behind it rather than just glorified furniture? I'm curious to know what the extent of your experience is in this area. I can't even remember what you had your kit on when I visited.

Marco.

Marco
08-02-2009, 11:14
Paul,

Good post. I am in complete agreement with you, and I look forward to having a chat with you at the show, preferably at the bar - my round :cool:


At the end of the day we are talking about inanimate objects and seem to take any challange to our choices as a deep and wounding character assassination.


You're absolutely right and it's something I just don't get. It's ridiculous. I couldn't give a monkey's if someone challenges my choices - in that instance I will simply defend them accordingly and explain why I made them, which is normal, but I certainly wouldn't get upset about it like some people do and take it as a personal attack.

Some people I fear are just a bit too insecure and 'precious'.

Marco.

Clive
08-02-2009, 11:27
Some people I fear are just a bit too insecure and 'precious'.

Marco, it's that sort of comment that is insulting and inviting people to the get hump.

I've spent all my working life dealing with people face-to-face, by phone and by email (a lot of email daily). It's almost always email (the typed word) that causes any friction. A few people just don't understand how words come across to others. There are ways to communicate more effectively.....

If you behaved as aggressively with people face-to-face you'd get thumped.

Marco
08-02-2009, 11:44
Clive,

If people behave that way then I'm entitled to say so.

Can we give it a rest now and get back to the hi-fi topic please? There are some questions I asked you in my last post.

Marco.

Clive
08-02-2009, 11:45
It's not a matter of "flogging a dead horse" - I've already mentioned that this isn't practical for me to do at the moment so why keep bringing it up?

Have you ever used specialist equipment supports in the style of Mana or QS Reference, Clearlight Audio, Soild Tech, etc? - Stuff that actually has a genuine design principle behind it rather than just glorified furniture? I'm curious to know what the extent of your experience is in this area. I can't even remember what you had your kit on when I visited.

Marco.
OK, I'll stop mentioning it, it was because you've gone pretty extreme with your Mana copies that it seems odd that you haven't tried this particular and obvious approach.

I have tried Mana in past, yes to good effect. I've heard but not personally tried a QS. I wasn't impressed with what I heard but that could well have been a crap demo.

I have various cones and 3 point decoupling with my TT, the table is nothing special, an old sound org one, but with the decoupled slate 2-tier plinth the few things I tried made little difference. Inside my phono stage I have some very well decoupled valve sockets and valves rings. I'm less impressed with the valve rings but the valve sockets are vital. Internal damping is highly important too. Isolating mains TXs and chokes should not be ignored either. This is a about treating the whole. Gear should have vibration suppression built-in, then the external stuff like cones and tables will have an even greater benefit.

Clive
08-02-2009, 11:54
If people behave that way then I'm entitled to say so.

You just don't get it.

There are ways to meet people half way. It's a basic and fundamental etiquette. It prevents flame wars and even real wars.

Marco
08-02-2009, 12:04
OK, I'll stop mentioning it, it was because you've gone pretty extreme with your Mana copies that it seems odd that you haven't tried this particular and obvious approach.


Yep, I've gone "pretty extreme" with it because the more levels that are installed, the better the equipment is isolated from microphony, and the impact on music reproduced is significant - it's as simple as that, therefore you can never have too much. If my ceilings were higher I'd have even more of it - I kid you not! Then I'd really need a ladder to change records :lol:

I've even recently compared how my system sounds with the gear plonked on the floor and then on all the Mana supports, when I sold all the original Mana and installed the clones and had to set everything up again, and the difference is frankly astounding. I did this as a little test to make sure that I haven't been imagining things all these years :eyebrows:

Moving my turntable though and the hassle involved of having to go up and down all over the place changing records - and it also being further away from my record collection is just too much of a ball-ache really, and completely unachievable in the house I'm in at the moment. I may revisit it though if or when we move house in the future.


I have tried Mana in past, yes to good effect. I've heard but not personally tried a QS. I wasn't impressed with what I heard but that could well have been a crap demo.


Possibly it could have been. I'm glad that you also rate Mana - I knew you had discerning ears anyway bit that just confirms it! ;)

Are you coming to the show in March? If so I can demonstrate to you how effective QS Ref is there, as we will be using it to support our demo system.


I have various cones and 3 point decoupling with my TT, the table is nothing special, an old sound org one, but with the decoupled slate 2-tier plinth the few things I tried made little difference. Inside my phono stage I have some very well decoupled valve sockets and valves rings. I'm less impressed with the valve rings but the valve sockets are vital. Internal damping is highly important too. Isolating mains TXs and chokes should not be ignored either. This is a about treating the whole. Gear should have vibration suppression built-in, then the external stuff like cones and tables will have an even greater benefit.

That's all good stuff, some of which I may look at implementing myself.

Marco.

Marco
08-02-2009, 12:06
You just don't get it.

There are ways to meet people half way. It's a basic and fundamental etiquette. It prevents flame wars and even real wars.

Clive, enough now please - no more lecturing, ta! We're talking about hi-fi now :)

Marco.

Primalsea
08-02-2009, 12:07
Paul,
Good post. I am in complete agreement with you, and I look forward to having a chat with you at the show, preferably at the bar - my round :cool:
Marco.

I'm holding you to that Marco but as drinking alcohol in the day just makes me sleepy I'll have to be boring.

Marco
08-02-2009, 12:13
LOL. I'll buy you whatever drink you want, mate. It'll defo be good to have a chat, though, and I hope you enjoy the system we're putting together - and the music we'll be playing! :)

Marco.

Primalsea
08-02-2009, 12:27
Do you promise not to verbally browbeat me if I dont:)

Steve Toy
08-02-2009, 12:32
marco does not brow-beat in real life, only on here ;)

Marco
08-02-2009, 12:34
Paul,

Hahahahaha... Yesh, daddy; of course :eyebrows:

Honesty and constructive comments are all that we're looking for. Basically it's a fun excercise and a day out that people shouldn't take too seriously - it should be a giggle :gig:

Marco.

P.S Steve, some folk would try the patience of a bloody saint!

pentode10
08-02-2009, 19:29
Well, there seem to be a lot of interesting and diverce opinions on the subject.
Having been a former electronics service engineer and being involved with Hi Fi for over 30 years I hope I've managed to gleen some experience on the way.
If anyone has flicked through the gallery I would just like to point out that my shelves were sourced from Home Base and not B&Q, if you don't mind.(LOL)..

Unfortunately in the house I'm in now it's just not possible to use nice dedicated supports due to space issues but I have used Target supports on my equipment in other set ups and with very good results.
in paticular the Linn LP12 I used then sounded very much improved on a propper support.

All though it may not be obvious in the pictures all my components are supported on sub boards via spikes and the Garrard 401 is on some rather nice brass ones.

So yes I am an avocate of good equipment supports and understand the issues of microphony and trying to effect maximum isolation from same,Its'
just not allways possible to do the best job in a particular domestic setting.

Oh for a dedicated listening room !!!!

As I mentioned before it was the issue of cables in contact with the wall deal
and I genuenly will keep an open mind on the subject and when time allows do some experimenting.

At the risk of puttin my foot in it, why did Target make a turntable suppoprt that bolted to the wall ???!!!
Just wondered....

Cheers
Andy.

Mike
08-02-2009, 21:57
At the risk of puttin my foot in it, why did Target make a turntable suppoprt that bolted to the wall ???!!!
Just wondered....

Plenty of others did, and do, too.

It's the best place for them to be! ;)

niklasthedolphin
09-02-2009, 13:39
Hi,
apologies if this has been covered before but I'm a recent member..

In a recent thread Steve Toy touched on the subject of interconnect cables being in contact with the wall as to cause degredation in sound quality.

I've not heard of this one before so whats the deal folks...

Cheers
Andy.


There's nothing to it.
Forget it.


Microphony from mechanical impact do exist as a problem in gear set-ups.
But it will be transmittet through certain components and not through cables.

Easy test: Listen to music, snap your finger on the cable. Can you hear it? No!
Do the same with a tube, transistor og cap somewhere in an amp, do it on a cartridge or and you'll hear it instantly.
This is justifying use of racks, TT shelves, spikes and dampening feet.
Coupling and dampening are wanted different places.
Don't use them wrong.

Cables can touch the wall as much as you want without influence on the sound.
Just make sure you don't have any electrical cables in the wall where interconnects run.

Cables crossing each other or running parallel close to each other can certainly influence sound.
But that's another issue.

"dolph"

Peter Stockwell
09-02-2009, 13:53
Errr, what's this about interconnects touching the wall :-( . yes I've known about this for sometime. Current system set up makes avoiding wall contact next to impossible. Even on the Naim forum they're pretty keen on cable dressing. So I'd agree that there are audible effects from cable born vibration.

How did this thread diverge into a QS/Mana or nothing thread. FWIW, I wouldn't entertain mana because of its aesthetics, but then I don't know what I'm missing having never, or almost never, heard a system that had a mana rack as its support. I'm using Hutter, maybe it's a bit fruity in the bass? I don't know, but it was a substantial impovement over the Ash designs Cosmic that preceded it.

cheers

Mike
09-02-2009, 13:54
Cables can touch the wall as much as you want without influence on the sound.

It could even possibly be a benefit, maybe the wall could impart some damping to the cable?

Either way, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Bigger fish to fry and all that! :)

Marco
09-02-2009, 13:58
Dolph,


There's nothing to it.


In your humble opinion only of course! ;)

Mike,

Bigger fish to fry? Of course, certainly in your case right now - but all these 'subtle effects' add up! :)

Marco.

Mike
09-02-2009, 13:59
He is not alone.

And why should he be 'humble'? Oh wise and great know-it-all! :lolsign:

Marco
09-02-2009, 14:02
Everyone is 'humble' here, but some more so than others ;)

You've got some posts to read over on your turntable thread, btw.

Marco.

Mike
09-02-2009, 14:08
You've got some posts to read over on your turntable thread, btw.

Been there, done that! :)

niklasthedolphin
09-02-2009, 14:09
Dolph,



In your humble opinion only of course! ;)

Mike,

Bigger fish to fry? Of course, certainly in your case right now - but all these 'subtle effects' add up! :)

Marco.

In my humble empiri.

My walls are not vibrant at all, whilst the air around them might be.
Indeed when I play loud music.

Inside equipment: Microphony is a factor transmitted by some components more than others. Cabinets sometimes "help" this issue.
But the printed circuit board is the big sinner here.
Snap you finger on a component prone to microphony, like the glass of a valve, and then snap your finger on the pinted circuit board just beside the valve.
The latter action will have the most sound destructing effect.

So before you tear down walls to rebuild your house in MDF, try solutions to dampen the standing of each part of your set-up, and maybe even try solutions to dampen the printed circuit boards inside the gear.

"dolph"

Marco
09-02-2009, 14:22
Okay dokey :)

You said to "forget it", but how can you do that if you've heard it? ;)

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
09-02-2009, 14:29
Okay dokey :)

You said to "forget it", but how can you do that if you've heard it? ;)

Marco.

That's what I said.

I never said it.

And for you I would repeat it at any time.

Never heard it.
Only heard it elsewhere.

So let's move on.

"dolph"

Marco
09-02-2009, 14:32
Yes let's move on because I didn't understand a word of that! :scratch:

:eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
09-02-2009, 14:52
Yes let's move on because I didn't understand a word of that! :scratch:

:eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

You don't understand a damn sh.. of what I wrote and that was intentional.

Just as I don't understand when you write:
"You said to "forget it", but how can you do that if you've heard it?"

What is it you claim I've heard?

I said "forget it" to the OP about the subject of interconnect cables being in contact with the wall as to cause degredation in sound quality.

Is that what you think you saw me writing that I've heard.
Because if that's so, you're wrong and you better read my posts agian.

What I HAVE heard, though, are issues with microphony elsewhere than the contact between wall and interconnects.

If you want to know where microphony can be an issue, I again suggest you to reread my posts.

"dolph"

Steve Toy
09-02-2009, 14:56
Now I am confused. I thought Dolph made an interesting couple of observations about the effects of microphony on circuits. Can we get back to that please

Marco
09-02-2009, 15:12
Haha... Dolph, you're taking this too seriously, my friend!

What I meant was that you had told the OP to "forget it" (in terms of the effect of the thread title), but on a forum whatever you write is not just read by the person you're addressing - it's read by the whole forum! :)

I was merely saying that if you've heard the effect (as I have - thus giving some evidence to its existance), of interconnects touching the wall, then you can't forget it!!

Anyway, moving on before we all go insane... :eyebrows:

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
09-02-2009, 15:42
Haha... Dolph, you're taking this too seriously, my friend!

What I meant was that you had told the OP to "forget it" (in terms of the effect of the thread title), but on a forum whatever you write is not just read by the person you're addressing - it's read by the whole forum! :)

I was merely saying that if you've heard the effect (as I have - thus giving some evidence to its existance), of interconnects touching the wall, then you can't forget it!!

Anyway, moving on before we all go insane... :eyebrows:

Marco.


I'm hardly awake here.
How a can I be too serious then?

I am perfectly aware that my posts are for all to read.
And ........?

What was it you thought you've seen me write that I've heard?

And what evidence are you referring to?

And to Steve Toy: You just go back to any issue you want.
I will try to answer as adressed.

Bare in mind, though, english is not really my tongue.

"dolph"

markf
09-02-2009, 21:48
My cables are jammed up against the wall, keeps them in place and takes the strain
off the equipment connectors. I haven't measured the vibrations on the cables but I
wouldn't be surprised if they vibrated more if left to hang in free space.
(I have MIT cables and the boxes don't make cable dressing easy)

Steve Toy
09-02-2009, 22:35
There are supports made from acrylic designed specifically to support those MIT boxes. Anything with mass connected to your kit is microphonic.

niklasthedolphin
09-02-2009, 23:03
Nahh...................
I don't have to repost all to disagree with that statement.

Just read back and see why cables are not a microphonic problem.

"dolph"

tubehunter
09-02-2009, 23:05
Hi,

I have found that cables are microphonic. my electric guitar cable maked a hell of a noise when the combo is turned up.
Also isn't this the reason microphone cables have cloth inside them, so to cut down on noise when a singer starts doing Roger Daltry swings.
Radio microphones stop this.

Duncan

niklasthedolphin
09-02-2009, 23:20
Hi,

I have found that cables are microphonic. my electric guitar cable maked a hell of a noise when the combo is turned up.
Also isn't this the reason microphone cables have cloth inside them, so to cut down on noise when a singer starts doing Roger Daltry swings.
Radio microphones stop this.

Duncan

Yeah but here in this thread is the debate if interconnects are microphonic when mechanical influenced from a wall they might touch.

"dolph"

Primalsea
10-02-2009, 21:25
It seems to be a fact that microphony in cables is measurable. However it seems that you need a huge amount of force and a huge amount of amplification in order to measure it. At a guess I would say that it is feasible that long cables with considerable capacitance and inductance would suffer from microphony problems with far less force than that needed for a shorter cable. I'm prepared to keep an open mind on this but I just dont see cable microphony being a real world issue.
This is just a theory but its likely that mechanical vibration is the problem. Vibration can travel through amost anything suprisingly well. To give an idea, when the mirror of the hubbel telescope was being polished the vibrations of a car travelling 1/2 a mile away would cause inaccuracies in the mirror dispite the huge amount of isolation used on the polishing machine. Phono connections are not very good, they're not secure and the contacts tarnish and gradually degrade. The vibrations of the cables and the equipment over time could start to degrade the electrical contact of the phono sockets.

As for the wall issue, (a theory too) the insulation and construction of the cable has measurable effects. At this time it seems though that no one has managed to come up with a sustainable theory or measurements that show the effect it has on audio frequencies other than the basic effect of bandwidth. The issue of the possible effect of non audio frequencies having an effect on what we here is another can of worms so I will discount this at this time. In theory a 100% shielded cable will not allow anything outside of the shield to effect anything inside. However the shield will have currents running through it therefore it will produce fields around the sheild which will be effected by anything close to the shield. Again the measurable effect would probably be very small and only detectable at very high frequencies but I beleive it's there none the less.

An interesting point is that the speed electrons travelling through a conductor do not account for the current that flows. It seems that the current flows via the fields that are generated outside of the conductor. These fields are effected by the insulation.

Just my thoughts, hopefully they're based on acurate understanding.

Marco
10-02-2009, 21:44
Hi Paul,


It seems to be a fact that microphony in cables is measurable. However it seems that you need a huge amount of force and a huge amount of amplification in order to measure it. At a guess I would say that it is feasible that long cables with considerable capacitance and inductance would suffer from microphony problems with far less force than that needed for a shorter cable. I'm prepared to keep an open mind on this but I just dont see cable microphony being a real world issue.
This is just a theory but its likely that mechanical vibration is the problem. Vibration can travel through amost anything suprisingly well.


I totally agree.

The bit I've highlighted in bold after is the whole point. I think some people have misunderstood the argument being put forward pretty much from the offset.

What the likes of Steve Toy and I are saying is that cables touching walls pick up vibration (generated by speakers and/or outside influences), and the cable then acts as a conduit for said vibration with it travelling through the cable into equipment and thus causing microphony issues with sensitive circuitry inside components - NOT necessarily that the cables themselves are microphonic (although that may also be the case as a separate issue).

Do you see where I'm coming from now? :)

For some reason everyone's reading the thread topic the wrong way. I thought it was quite clear but obviously it wasn't.

Marco.

Mike
10-02-2009, 21:57
What the likes of Steve Toy and I are saying is that cables touching walls pick up vibration (generated by speakers and/or outside influences)

By association then, you are also saying, or at least implying, it that cables which do not touch the wall are not not pick up vibration. Or at least appreciably less vibration?

<Thinking for a bit>.... So do the 'speakers and/or outside influences' find it easier to vibrate the wall and hence the cable, than do directly impart these vibrations directly into the cables?

If so, please explain how. :)

Marco
10-02-2009, 22:04
By association then, you are also saying, or at least implying, it that cables which do not touch the wall are not not pick up vibration. Or at least appreciably less vibration?


Indeed! Hence why I have my interconnects hanging in free space, and am advocating that others do the same.


So do the 'speakers and/or outside influences' find it easier to vibrate the wall and hence the cable, than do directly impart these vibrations directly into the cables?

If so, please explain how.


No idea, matey, but I can clearly hear the (detrimental) sonic effect! It's another one of those 'let your ears be the judge' effects like many other things in hi-fi, I'm afraid.

Marco.

Mike
10-02-2009, 22:37
Hmmm, sooooo.....

These 'vibrations' (most likely source the loudspeakers?) find it comparatively easier to influence the walls than they do a cable!

I've just had a look at my system and some cables are indeed touching the wall. So I thought I'd investigate said wall. The wall appears to be attached to some other walls which in turn are supporting some other surfaces which look suspiciously like floors, further tracing has revealed that these various vertical and horizontal surfaces form a structure. This structure appears to be what we commonly call 'a house'. Now... I haven't put it on any scales or anything but no amount of pushing and shoving elicits any movement so I conclude that it is 'heavy'. Or has a lot of mass!
If we take what we 'know' (;)) about high mass items, say... a turntable plinth, then it could be said that they are good energy (or vibration) 'sinks'. No?

And yet you seem to be implying that this high mass house can be easily vibrated, which would surely include the floors within it!... And yet hanging the cables in free air behind a comparatively light and flimsy rack which is standing on the floor somehow prevents, or greatly reduces, the detrimental effects of these vibrations?

Come on, explain how and/or why!...
Cheers...

Spectral Morn
11-02-2009, 00:07
Come on, explain how and/or why!...
Cheers... Mike Homar



"We agree......answer or I will have to send the lads round..."


http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/movie-daleks-1l.jpg

"Where does MARCO live ?".................................................. ............"I have the location Supreme Dalek D L"
"The plan for using vibration as a weapon against SOLID STATE
amplification can be progressed. MARCO has the information we need.
Take him alive.".................................................. ............................."I Obey"

http://www.mrsite.co.uk/usersitesv14/reddersdaleks.com/wwwroot/USERIMAGES/Cinema%20Daleks%20(24).jpg

"Why do I have to deal with MARCO ?" I would rather be listening to music through my valve amplifiers

http://www.freewebs.com/dalek77/daleks.jpg


Outside MARCO'S back door,the Dalek interrogation squad arrive.....

http://www.dmmultimedia.com/Dalek/dalek_080g.jpg



Regards D S D L----Neil ;) :lolsign:

niklasthedolphin
11-02-2009, 03:31
I believe letting my cables, deliberately, lean towards the wall behind the gear will reduce the, already, disapearingly small, if at all measurable, microphony, transmitted through cables and further on through plugs and internal cables in the amp, further on to components.

So Turn the world around.

Walls are the tool to dampen.

"dolph"

Yiangos
11-02-2009, 05:36
:laugh::lolsign:Neil !!!!!

Marco
11-02-2009, 08:29
LOL! I think Neil deserves his own AOS mini Dr Who 'TV series' so he can keep posting those lurvely images of Daleks...

Mikey,


Come on, explain how and/or why!...


Obviously that's not currently possible. Can you explain, for example, why digital coaxial cables sound different, yet clearly they do, why CD transport mechanisms sound different, which they do, or exactly why Mana works, which clearly it does (you should hear my system without it!), or why NOS valves (in general) sound so much better than current production ones of the same type and sometimes from the same manufacturer?

I suspect not, but you’re welcome to put forward some theories if you like, although it won't 'prove' anything...

My view, based on extensive listening, is that airborne vibration (which is mostly the only type of vibration cables hanging in free space are subjected to) contributes less to microphony in equipment than structural vibration generated from outside influences and from the floor from speakers when played loudly in the same room as the system. The fact is, I can clearly hear the effect if any of my mains or signal cables come into contact with walls or the floor – no question, and I'm not alone.

The easiest way to prove this is next time you're round I'll demonstrate it to you, and then once you hear it yourself (which you will as my system shows up the effect all too clearly), you can come on here, apologise for being an arse, and tell everyone that the Marco-boy was right all along! :ner: ;)

More seriously, as you know fine and well, there are plenty of effects in hi-fi that can be heard but currently not measured or 'proven', and I'm afraid that vibration transfer in cables is another valid example, so we could debate this one forever and get nowhere...

Life's too short, though, so until science catches up and we can measure everything the human ear can detect, and thus scientifically prove all we hear with hi-fi, if you'll excuse me, I'll just continue to enjoy the effect on music played of my cables not touching the walls and leave you to it! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Ali Tait
11-02-2009, 09:28
It may well be an issue in your room/system Marco,as you have some large woofers playing at generally high SPL's in a smallish room.It may therefore be more of an issue in your system than that of most others.

The NOS valve thing? I reckon down to a)very very high purity of metals used in construction. b)Much tighter quality control. c)Higher vacuum in the valve.d)Some sort of ageing effect.Seems to my ears the older the valve is the better it sounds.Steve S's 1930's 300a's are a case in point.Electrically identical to the 300b,yet sound soooo much better.

Marco
11-02-2009, 09:43
It may well be an issue in your room/system Marco,as you have some large woofers playing at generally high SPL's in a smallish room.It may therefore be more of an issue in your system than that of most others.


Hi Ali,

Quite possibly you're right, but mine isn't the only system I've heard the effect in - and of course if it's actually happening at all, no matter what the circumstances of my set-up are, then it proves that the effect exists.

I agree with you about NOS valves - it's exactly what I suspect. Could it be measured though, I wonder?

Marco.

Spectral Morn
11-02-2009, 09:54
[QUOTE=Marco;34219]LOL! I think Neil deserves his own AOS mini Dr Who 'TV series' so he can keep posting those lurvely images of Daleks...

" A series of our own Emperor.....This is MARCO'S offer"

http://www.freewebs.com/dalek77/emperorbriefing.jpg




Obviously that's not currently possible. Can you explain, for example, why digital coaxial cables sound different, yet clearly they do, why CD transport mechanisms sound different, which they do, or exactly why Mana works, which clearly it does (you should hear my system without it!), or why NOS valves (in general) sound so much better than current production ones of the same type and sometimes from the same manufacturer?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CHfcL6vQT9Y/R68MAcl6-dI/AAAAAAAAAq4/MR7Pm6-sJV0/s400/00%2BRed%2BDalek%2Bin%2BCorridor.JPG

"Our current theory on some of the above is as follows. Varying levels of jitter and a transports ability to reject external vibration and not create its own may well explain the difference between CD transports.
The quality of materials used in vintage valves far outstrip the poor modern copied versions. Even in the past, periods of poorer quality manufacturing did occur (still better than modern though, for the most part), when oem construction happened. Labels on valves did not reflect this out sourcing."


I suspect not, but you’re welcome to put forward some theories if you like, but it won't 'prove' anything...


My view, based on extensive listening, is that airborne vibration (which is mostly the only type of vibration cables hanging in free space are subjected to) contributes less to microphony in equipment than structural vibration generated from outside influences and from the floor from speakers when played loudly in the same room as the system. The fact is, I can clearly hear the effect if any of my mains or signal cables come into contact with walls or the floor – no question, and I'm not alone.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CHfcL6vQT9Y/R68MAcl6-dI/AAAAAAAAAq4/MR7Pm6-sJV0/s400/00%2BRed%2BDalek%2Bin%2BCorridor.JPG


"It is felt that it would take a very strong wind/air movement to excite enough air molecules to excite a cable hanging in free air. If it touches the wall (not all structures perhaps) the very mass if energized enough, will act as a kind of amplifier and will pump more energy into the systems components, than air alone can manage"



Regards Chief Science Dalek on behalf of D S D L.



:lolsign: Neil ;)

Marco
11-02-2009, 10:03
Hahahahahaha... There are certainly plenty of "strong winds" being emitted on this thread; I suspect some of it is 'fart gas', though mostly I think it's the hot air coming out of people's mouths - not mine of course! :lolsign:

:lol:

Marco.

Mike
11-02-2009, 10:18
mostly I think it's the hot air coming out of people's mouths - not mine of course!

zzzzZZZZZzzzzz.......:nocomment:

Marco
11-02-2009, 10:28
I was kidding, like - hence the smilies! :ner:

Marco.

Mike
11-02-2009, 10:42
Yeah whaatevah!

The whole thing is 'muck' to me ATM. Much bigger fish to fry....

I'll leave the rest of this thread to you lot. :lol:

Marco
11-02-2009, 10:57
Indeed - you definitely have much bigger fish to fry, so get frying, muchacho! :eyebrows:

Do you think your deck would be ready for bringing down to the show in March?

It could be an interesting addition to the AOS system :)

Marco.

Mike
11-02-2009, 10:59
Do you think your deck would be ready for bringing down to the show in March?

Don't be silly! :lol:

Marco
11-02-2009, 11:03
Why - are you still going to be dicking around with arms by then? :scratch:

You see, that's why I couldn't be arsed with this D.I.Y malarkey - it takes too long for things to happen... I just want to listen to music! :eyebrows:

Turntables are for playing records on, not for constantly lying with their arse open on a bench getting their bits fiddled with ;)

Marco.

Primalsea
11-02-2009, 12:41
not for constantly lying with their arse open on a bench getting their bits fiddled with ;)
Marco.

From your talk about gimp suits in the bake off thread this would seem to be a normal Saturday night for you:)

niklasthedolphin
11-02-2009, 12:43
Those of you, believing you have this microphony trouble from your misconstruction of your house:

Your vague arguments tells me that you chose a very bad room as listening room, with walls playing along like a slave bass.

I wouldn't bother audition those systems set up under these circumstances.
;-)

How can anyone match a system playing better than mediocre in a room like that?

And when a system is no more than mediocre, how can you in any way manage to define that cables are ruining the sound with microphonic issues?

Well..........................
Get a grip folks.

"dolph"

foxysounds
11-02-2009, 12:44
Just some thoughts...

A sound wave will impart energy to anything with which it comes into contact. How much energy will depend on things like the amplitude and frequency of the sound and the surface area of the surface in question.

Walls have large mass and so it will take a lot of energy to make them vibrate but on the other hand they have a large surface area so they will receive a fair amount of energy from an incident sound wave. Cables hanging in air, on the other hand, will require very little energy (in comparison) to make them vibrate but the surface area is tiny compared to that of a wall so the sound will impart much less energy to them.

My hi-fi is not of high enough fidelity to hope to notice effects like these if, in fact, they exist. However, I would suggest that if such an effect is measurable (and that includes measuring with our ears) then cables in contact with a wall will be subject to 2 sources of vibration - the vibration caused by the soundwave incident on the cable directly (which may be partially damped by the contact with the wall) and the vibration of the wall, caused by the soundwave and transmitted from the wall to the cable.

It seems to me that the effects of the soundwave on the cable directly are likely to be in the higher frequencies and the effects transmitted through the wall would be in the lower frequencies. If the higher frequency vibrations are in fact damped by the cable being in contact with the wall then it may simply come down to a choice: do you prefer the effect of the high frequency vibrations which are increased by having the cables away from the wall or the low frequency vibrations which are increased by having the cable in contact with the wall?

Also, in response to the people here who seem to think that walls won't vibrate as a result of sound waves, why is it then that you can hear sounds through a wall? If walls did not vibrate with sound waves then all walls would be sound proof.

Regards,

Simon.

niklasthedolphin
11-02-2009, 12:56
Just some thoughts...

A sound wave will impart energy to anything with which it comes into contact. How much energy will depend on things like the amplitude and frequency of the sound and the surface area of the surface in question.

Walls have large mass and so it will take a lot of energy to make them vibrate but on the other hand they have a large surface area so they will receive a fair amount of energy from an incident sound wave. Cables hanging in air, on the other hand, will require very little energy (in comparison) to make them vibrate but the surface area is tiny compared to that of a wall so the sound will impart much less energy to them.

My hi-fi is not of high enough fidelity to hope to notice effects like these if, in fact, they exist. However, I would suggest that if such an effect is measurable (and that includes measuring with our ears) then cables in contact with a wall will be subject to 2 sources of vibration - the vibration caused by the soundwave incident on the cable directly (which may be partially damped by the contact with the wall) and the vibration of the wall, caused by the soundwave and transmitted from the wall to the cable.

It seems to me that the effects of the soundwave on the cable directly are likely to be in the higher frequencies and the effects transmitted through the wall would be in the lower frequencies. If the higher frequency vibrations are in fact damped by the cable being in contact with the wall then it may simply come down to a choice: do you prefer the effect of the high frequency vibrations which are increased by having the cables away from the wall or the low frequency vibrations which are increased by having the cable in contact with the wall?

Also, in response to the people here who seem to think that walls won't vibrate as a result of sound waves, why is it then that you can hear sounds through a wall? If walls did not vibrate with sound waves then all walls would be sound proof.

Regards,

Simon.


My walls are double brick walls with isolation in the middle.
This is one reason I can use them for TT shelf with a good result.

For those that still believe this "through-wall cable microphony" is an issue, hang up a curtain between speakers and gear.

Any difference?

"dolph"

foxysounds
11-02-2009, 13:17
For those that still believe this "through-wall cable microphony" is an issue, hang up a curtain between speakers and gear.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What kind of curtain (i.e. of what material) and what are you expecting it to achieve?

Simon.

niklasthedolphin
11-02-2009, 13:24
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What kind of curtain (i.e. of what material) and what are you expecting it to achieve?

Simon.

Material: Cotton or maybe even what was used for photographic "Dark-rooms in-the-field".

Result: Damping.

"dolph"

Marco
11-02-2009, 13:38
Those of you, believing you have this microphony trouble from your misconstruction of your house:

Your vague arguments tells me that you chose a very bad room as listening room, with walls playing along like a slave bass.

I wouldn't bother audition those systems set up under these circumstances.
;-)

How can anyone match a system playing better than mediocre in a room like that?

And when a system is no more than mediocre, how can you in any way manage to define that cables are ruining the sound with microphonic issues?

Well..........................
Get a grip folks.

"dolph"

I think you're adding 2+2 and coming up with '44', Dolph! That is not the situation at all.

For example, I live in an old lodge house dating from 1887. All the rooms are oddly-shaped, have extremely solid walls and oak beams - the construction and the acoustics of my listening room are superb, so you're barking up the wrong tree, matey. This is not the land of 'IKEA'... :eyebrows: But I can still hear the negative effect of cables touching walls!

I'd quit while you *think* you're ahead ;)

Marco.

Marco
11-02-2009, 13:47
Just some thoughts...

A sound wave will impart energy to anything with which it comes into contact. How much energy will depend on things like the amplitude and frequency of the sound and the surface area of the surface in question.

Walls have large mass and so it will take a lot of energy to make them vibrate but on the other hand they have a large surface area so they will receive a fair amount of energy from an incident sound wave. Cables hanging in air, on the other hand, will require very little energy (in comparison) to make them vibrate but the surface area is tiny compared to that of a wall so the sound will impart much less energy to them.

My hi-fi is not of high enough fidelity to hope to notice effects like these if, in fact, they exist. However, I would suggest that if such an effect is measurable (and that includes measuring with our ears) then cables in contact with a wall will be subject to 2 sources of vibration - the vibration caused by the soundwave incident on the cable directly (which may be partially damped by the contact with the wall) and the vibration of the wall, caused by the soundwave and transmitted from the wall to the cable.

It seems to me that the effects of the soundwave on the cable directly are likely to be in the higher frequencies and the effects transmitted through the wall would be in the lower frequencies. If the higher frequency vibrations are in fact damped by the cable being in contact with the wall then it may simply come down to a choice: do you prefer the effect of the high frequency vibrations which are increased by having the cables away from the wall or the low frequency vibrations which are increased by having the cable in contact with the wall?

Also, in response to the people here who seem to think that walls won't vibrate as a result of sound waves, why is it then that you can hear sounds through a wall? If walls did not vibrate with sound waves then all walls would be sound proof.


Good post, Simon! I think you've got a pretty good grasp of what's happening :)

In my case, ensuring that cables hang in free space pays notable sonic dividends, but I also understand, as you say, that not even this is ideal. Perfection in hi-fi is impossible, but I will never settle for 'mediocre'!

The devil is in the details...

Marco.

foxysounds
11-02-2009, 14:13
Material: Cotton or maybe even what was used for photographic "Dark-rooms in-the-field".

Result: Damping.

"dolph"

Hi Dolph,

The only thing a cotton sheet will damp is some high frequencies. It's obviously going to be much less effective than a wall and we all know they allow sound to pass through. In fact even walls only effectively absorb high frequencies (hence your neighbour's bass may keep you awake all night but you'll never be disturbed by their high frequency output).

I may be being dense but I'm also still not sure how this relates to the issue being discussed.

Simon.

foxysounds
11-02-2009, 14:18
Good post, Simon! I think you've got a pretty good grasp of what's happening :)
Thanks! I was starting to worry I had jumped right into the frying pan here :)


In my case, ensuring that cables hang in free space pays notable sonic dividends, but I also understand, as you say, that not even this is ideal.
And if my theory is correct then for others it may sound better with the cable against the wall where the high frequency vibrations will be damped. However, since my original post it has also occurred to me that with the cable against the wall the combination of a wider range of frequencies causing vibration of the cable will also give rise to vibrational phase issues which could attenuate some frequencies further while enhancing others. :scratch:

Simon.

Marco
11-02-2009, 14:19
I may be being dense but I'm also still not sure how this relates to the issue being discussed.


S'ok you're not alone! Dolph likes living in his own little fantasy world :lolsign:

You'll come to realise that the more you hang around, Simon :)

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
11-02-2009, 14:30
What a crazy bunch of wanna be's present here.

When playing e.g. a Technics TT and fighting microphony transmitted from wall to cable makes me wonder if you should try to participate in F1 with a tuned Trabant.

I prefer to evaluate the whole.
That makes me confident about the quality of my experiences when listening to music.

Fight on.................it's hillarious.

"dolph"

foxysounds
11-02-2009, 16:01
I prefer to evaluate the whole.
I don't think anyone can argue with that but the OP stated he could hear a difference to the whole when he moved his cables off the wall.


Fight on.................it's hillarious.
I didn't notice any fighting :scratch:

Simon.

Marco
11-02-2009, 16:03
Simon,

Indeed. Out of curiosity, what do you find the results are in your system with the cable/wall scenario? :)

Marco.

foxysounds
11-02-2009, 16:10
Out of curiosity, what do you find the results are in your system with the cable/wall scenario? :)
I haven't tried it. However, given the specs of my hi-fi I strongly suspect that there would be much bigger inadequacies in my system which would mask the relatively subtle effects of something like this.

Simon.

Marco
11-02-2009, 16:15
It's possible, but don't go talking down your system too much - you might be surprised at just how much it can reveal. You've got some nice Marantz kit.

Marco.

foxysounds
11-02-2009, 23:24
Fair enough. I'll see if I can figure out a way to keep the interconnects off the wall and see if I can notice any difference. It will probably have to wait until the weekend though.

Simon.

Steve Toy
12-02-2009, 03:19
A lot will depend on how good your stand is at grounding vibration within the kit as well as decoupling it from vibration in the floor. A system placed on a stand well sorted in this regard reveals the re-coupling effect of a cable touching a wall through the components connected to it.

leo
12-02-2009, 18:53
You see, that's why I couldn't be arsed with this D.I.Y malarkey - it takes too long for things to happen... I just want to listen to music! :eyebrows:



Marco.

It only takes long for those wasting too much time talking about it instead of actually doing it:lol:

I do stray outside of the diy room, I tend not to get involved with these type of discussions though:mental:

Steve Toy
12-02-2009, 18:56
I do stray outside of the diy room, I tend not to get involved with these type of discussions though:mental:

Fair comment. :)

You could of course completely over-react instead by not just steering away from these threads tucked down towards the bottom under 'The Artist's Palette', but by boycotting the whole forum and bitching and moaning it elsewhere. :D

http://theartofsound.net/forum/images/misc/progress.gif

leo
12-02-2009, 19:51
Fair comment. :)

You could of course completely over-react instead by not just steering away from these threads tucked down towards the bottom under 'The Artist's Palette', but by boycotting the whole forum and bitching and moaning it elsewhere. :D

http://theartofsound.net/forum/images/misc/progress.gif


Nah, over-reacting isn't something I tend to do Steve:eyebrows: takes more than heated debates on cable and vibration to get me :steam:

Mike
12-02-2009, 20:40
It only takes long for those wasting too much time talking about it instead of actually doing it:lol:

True... But if I'm waiting for the posty to bring nice things to me, all I can do is blab about it! :confused: ;)

leo
12-02-2009, 22:48
True... But if I'm waiting for the posty to bring nice things to me, all I can do is blab about it! :confused: ;)

Yes, nothing wrong in blabbing if your waiting for bits, its those which faff about blabbing before they've even started building anything, weeks later their still blabbing and nothing built:)

Beechwoods
12-02-2009, 23:02
Guilty as charged :o ;)

niklasthedolphin
13-02-2009, 11:48
I see there's a person asking advice about wall mounting his entire stereo set-up in a seperate thread.

What advice would you, who believe in serious microphony from cables touching walls, give this guy?

"dolph"

markf
13-02-2009, 16:56
Dolph,
I`m guessing the rule for wall mounting is " don't let the cables touch the floor"

Steve Toy
13-02-2009, 17:18
Dolph,

I've no experience with wall mounting other than a Rega P25 turntable. I do know that a rack sitting on the floor is usually preferable though, except where there are space constraints, the floor is really bad for footfalls and vibration and/or is very uneven.

I am beginning to think you are just here to ridicule. I hope I'm wrong.

Mike
13-02-2009, 17:50
I see there's a person asking advice about wall mounting his entire stereo set-up in a seperate thread.

What advice would you, who believe in serious microphony from cables touching walls, give this guy?

"dolph"

I once had everything except my TT mounted on the wall, it worked very well.

The TT (LP12) sat on a dedicated table on the floor... I used to have to try and sneak up on it like some sort of demented Ninja to prevent it from going ape-shit thanks to the ridiculously bouncy floor! Suspended floors can be a nightmare in my experience.

niklasthedolphin
14-02-2009, 12:36
Dolph,

I've no experience with wall mounting other than a Rega P25 turntable. I do know that a rack sitting on the floor is usually preferable though, except where there are space constraints, the floor is really bad for footfalls and vibration and/or is very uneven.

I am beginning to think you are just here to ridicule. I hope I'm wrong.

I'm debating.

You can lead an elephant to the river but you can't force it to drink.

"dolph"

foxysounds
23-02-2009, 23:40
Well, I finally got around to trying out the test a couple of nights ago. I started by attuning my ears to my current set up by listening carefully to something I know really well (I chose "Hotel Hobbies" by Marillion. The opening is very quiet with lots of intricacies which are easily lost). Having heard the song through I pulled the interconnects away from the wall and listened again to the same track in the same listening position at the same volume and I noticed a detail in the hi-hat part I had never heard before in all my years of listening to this album!

To ensure that it wasn't fluke I put the interconnects back in their previous positions (easier said than done - they no-longer wanted to stay on the wall) and tried the same experiment with another track I know intimately - "Learning to Live" by Dream Theater. This is a track I have used in the past when auditioning hi-fi. There's an awful lot going on and on a poor system it can sound ill-defined and muddy. On the first listen I heard details in the bass-line I hadn't heard before. When I went back to the hi-fi I found that one of the cables hadn't stayed against the wall. I took the other one away from the wall and listened again and once again heard more new detail.

I was tempted to conclude that I had heard for myself the effect of microphony due to cables on the wall. However, to be sure it occurred to me that I should discount one other possibility...

To prove that this wasn't simply a case of hearing more on each subsequent listen, I did a third test. This time I listened to another track I know really well ("29 Palms" by Robert Plant) but this time I listened both times with the cables away from the wall. On the first listen I heard details in the bass-line which I hadn't previously noticed. However, on the second listen I didn't notice anything new that I hadn'd heard on the first listen so it seems to me that this was not just a case of hearing more detail with each subsequent listen.

Believe me that it is an understatement to say that I was surprised by my own findings. While I was perfectly willing to entertain the theory that this could make a difference I really didn't expect it to be noticable.

Simon.

Alan
24-02-2009, 13:29
I'm sure Microphony exists, is an audible phenomena in certain situations and can be mostly remedied very quickly & easily. For this last reason if nothing else it is worth addressing.

It is my view that many things will affect our perception of the capabilities of our own rigs far more the microphony from interconnects. Mood & well being is a large factor in musical enjoyment - which in turn heightens our senses & perceptions to musical detail, which itself further increases pleasure. The opposite of a vicious circle.

Sometimes great pleasure can be derived from having a play with the hifi, testing the rig & ourself as to whether differences in setup can resolve more detail or the 'x-factor'-musicality. In such a period of heightened expectation & pleasurable hours spent mucking about, it is no surprise to find oneself picking out new details and a heightened response to tracks we thought we knew well.

Whilst we know our rigs & our ears well enough to discern when a change is beneficial or detrimental, it must be worth recognizing that the biggest variable in the chain - ourselves - are being stimulated and pleasured by the experience of playing around with our pride & joy, hearing some of our favourite reference tracks and the belief that we are getting somewhere with our latest tweaks. The point is underscored by looking at how we respond to music when we are in a bad mood (unless I am the only who gets this way?) - nothing sounds right, we are uninterested in the music, perhaps preferring not to listen at all.

The Idea(l) that equipment must be on a dedicated rack & I/Cs must be isolated should be kept in perspective. Discussions such as this 17 page monster carry the implicit suggestion to onlookers that 'real' hifi is always on said racks with uber-care taken in setup. We all know this is not the case. In fact because I live in a family home my rig is on a bookcase as to unobstrusive and out of reach. It is all digital & solid state, and the designer of much of has informed me that I can place his products almost anywhere - they are not fussy. I know I could - using the experience described in the paragraphs above - trick myself into hearing meaningful improvements with a huge mana style stack, but realistically there would be - according to the kits designer - little difference. Far more musical enjoyment can be obtained by my being in the correct frame of mind, and secure in the setup choice I've made.

It is of course, all down to circumstance & perspective. In this hobby - its all good, but we have to be careful to keep the perspective wrt tweaks, setup, modifications, accessories etc.

I have moved my rack - er, bookcase out from the wall slightly so the interconnects are clear. It sounds great, quite possibly a little better than before. I enjoyed trying to find out, so I have 'bonded' with my rig and am possibly more intimately acquainted with its sound now. I changed a main interconnect cable recently & found significant improvement from that, so everything sound pretty fine right now regardless.

Alan
24-02-2009, 23:45
Having re-read the above, I hope it's clear I mean no offence to anyone at all or their views on equipment racks & microphony. There are absolutely no absolutes in the pursuit of this hobby.

Steve Toy
25-02-2009, 01:41
Alan,

If you read Simon's post thoroughly, you'll see that he explored all sorts of angles of perception. I think his analysis was pretty convincing; it certainly concurs with my own experience, even if mine was less thorough albeit more extensively repeated. You owe it to yourself to avail yourself with a completely open mind to this specific experiment.

The beauty of it is that, domestic setup constraints aside, it costs you precisely nothing, thus the risk of any loss, other than face if you hold strong theoretical views, is zero loss and anything above zero to gain.

Primalsea
25-02-2009, 08:22
I dont really expect anything from changing cables (by this I mean not hyping myself up for a difference and trying to be open minded as possible) and find that I cant hear any differences most of the time. There has been odd occasions when changing a lead of some kind has had an effect. Based on my own experience and discounting others I would conclude that often its the expectation of a change that leads to a perceived change and any changes tend to be very small but its the large impact it has on you that makes you believe its a big change.

However its all part of the fun to try these things so I have made a cable up that shouldn't be effected by its position or proximity to things. I will bring it on Sunday so we can have a play. Also I will bring some other bits and pieces to play with.

Beechwoods
25-02-2009, 08:53
It'll definitely be interesting to check it out Paul. Can't believe it's this weekend already :)

foxysounds
25-02-2009, 09:06
Having re-read the above, I hope it's clear I mean no offence to anyone at all or their views on equipment racks & microphony. There are absolutely no absolutes in the pursuit of this hobby.
Hi Alan,

I certainly didn't take any offence. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly with most of what you say.

One thing that I don't personally find is that my mood affects my enjoyment of my hi-fi. Rather, I find the reverse - my hi-fi can seriously affect my mood. When I'm in a bad mood, nothing cheers me up like listening to good music.

Simon.

foxysounds
25-02-2009, 09:36
I dont really expect anything from changing cables (by this I mean not hyping myself up for a difference and trying to be open minded as possible) and find that I cant hear any differences most of the time.
If by "cables" you mean interconnects or speaker cables then my experience here differs enormously. I have heard a significant difference every time I have upgraded a cable and I'm pretty sure it's not psychological because on one of those occasions I really disliked the sound of the "upgraded" (by which I mean more expensive) cable and put the cheaper one back in :)

I haven't experimented with upgrading power cables although all of my hi-fi is connected to a single mains distribution unit from Maplin which is surge protected and which got a 5 star award in What Hi-Fi. I didn't do any head-to-head comparisons against the old one when I first used it.

Simon.

Alan
25-02-2009, 11:36
Alan,

If you read Simon's post thoroughly, you'll see that he explored all sorts of angles of perception. I think his analysis was pretty convincing; it certainly concurs with my own experience, even if mine was less thorough albeit more extensively repeated. You owe it to yourself to avail yourself with a completely open mind to this specific experiment.

The beauty of it is that, domestic setup constraints aside, it costs you precisely nothing, thus the risk of any loss, other than face if you hold strong theoretical views, is zero loss and anything above zero to gain.

I agree with this, & I hope I have not given the impression of not reading through or thinking thoroughly about the subject before posting. I agree with the science (obviously) wrt microphony, but my observation - it is just that - an observation, not a rebuttal - is that its effects may be accented (to use a musical term) to our perceptions, due in part to expectation and also to the undoubted pleasure that comes with having a play with our setups. :)

I ardently believe that just about everything affects our rigs ability to portray music, and that the biggest variable is us the listener. It is therefore a moot point as whether the difference is 'worth' it or not. Even if one can't hear it it is worth it to address this issue, as you say it is free and I have done so. I believe I hear a difference as my system is extremely honest, but with a bit of a head cold this week I can't qualify myself explicitly. :

I agree with Simons experiment being thorough and helpful - Thank you for sharing it with us Simon - My overall point still stands though concerning the perception that 'real' hifi must be set up according to certain 'absolute truths' (which don't exist in music) - this can make the pursuit of musical integrity look elitist and exclusive. Setup issues are important (see - no argument!), but in some cases the extent which some of us are willing to extend to are not of critical importance. It shouldn't hurt us to accept that. :sofa::sofa::sofa::sofa:

foxysounds
25-02-2009, 12:38
I ardently believe that just about everything affects our rigs ability to portray music, and that the biggest variable is us the listener.
I don't affect my rig's ability to play music but I certainly affect my perception of it.

I stated in my earlier post about the physics of the issue that it is likely that putting interconnects against the wall increases microphany due to low frequency vibrations and decreases microphony due to high frequency vibrations and that different people may therefore have different preferences of interconnect placement.

I too have a mild cold at the moment so perhaps in my summary of my experiment I should have said:

"On days when I have a mild cold, I hear more detail in my music when the interconnects are off the wall"?

Or perhaps one can go too far. I suspect I'll still prefer the off-the-wall sound when my cold has gone or indeed if it gets worse. Perhaps I should re-do the experiment in different states of health to see which one is best for hi-fi?

But then again, perhaps I won't bother :)

Simon.

Alan
25-02-2009, 13:56
I don't affect my rig's ability to play music but I certainly affect my perception of it.

I stated in my earlier post about the physics of the issue that it is likely that putting interconnects against the wall increases microphany due to low frequency vibrations and decreases microphony due to high frequency vibrations and that different people may therefore have different preferences of interconnect placement.

I too have a mild cold at the moment so perhaps in my summary of my experiment I should have said:

"On days when I have a mild cold, I hear more detail in my music when the interconnects are off the wall"?

Or perhaps one can go too far. I suspect I'll still prefer the off-the-wall sound when my cold has gone or indeed if it gets worse. Perhaps I should re-do the experiment in different states of health to see which one is best for hi-fi?



Simon.
Or when having a wee dram for the cold mebbe? :eyebrows:

"But then again, perhaps I won't bother :)"
Quite right too - I don't think there's any doubt about the outcome of the test. This is what it's all about anyway: :gig:
Thanks again for your time & effort with your test.

niklasthedolphin
25-02-2009, 14:57
Why don't you guys get some enjoyment out of great music instead of grumbling on some detailing in cabling that only has influence on equipment build bad enough to be prone to these microscopic differences in microphony perception?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

"dolph"

Steve Toy
25-02-2009, 15:08
Au contraire "Dolph," the better the kit the more revealing it is of the effects of microphony. Valves are more microphomic than SMD solid state, turntables are more susceptible than CD players and all source components are more so than amps, but they are ALL affected in varying degrees.

niklasthedolphin
25-02-2009, 15:30
Au contraire "Dolph," the better the kit the more revealing it is of the effects of microphony. Valves are more microphomic than SMD solid state, turntables are more susceptible than CD players and all source components are more so than amps, but they are ALL affected in varying degrees.

I agree that valves are more prone than SS, TT more than CD's.
I know perfectly well what components are worst and I know where in the gear the susceptiblance is highest.

But I do not agree that this means that better build equipment are more affected than lesser quality build and I do not agree that sources generally are more prone to microphony than amps. This will depend on if the source is incooperating transducers of some kind or not.

Of course the better gear, the more revealing.
But better gear should also transmit less microphony and IF you really have microphony as an issue, why not deal with it in a more effective way than this cable-dressing pseudo-intellectual way.

And then.........................when did you last enjoy music for real?

"dolph"

Marco
25-02-2009, 17:40
Why don't you guys get some enjoyment out of great music instead of grumbling on some detailing in cabling that only has influence on equipment build bad enough to be prone to these microscopic differences in microphony perception?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:



And then.........................when did you last enjoy music for real?


Dolph, have your heard of the UK term 'thread crapping'?

If you don't have anything positive or constructive to say on a thread then say nothing! Thanks :)

Alan and Simon,

Some great insight and contributions here, chaps. I'll add some comment of my own later.

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
25-02-2009, 19:03
Dolph, have your heard of the UK term 'thread crapping'?

If you don't have anything positive or constructive to say on a thread then say nothing! Thanks :)

Alan and Simon,

Some great insight and contributions here, chaps. I'll add some comment of my own later.

Marco.

If you only allow arguments leaning to the one side in a given debate, I bet your debate will be peaceful but boringly unnuanced and without much facts and empiri.

But if that's what you want, I'll leave you to it.

"dolph"

Marco
25-02-2009, 19:08
No that's not what I want. What I would like if you don't agree is constructive criticism based on genuine experience of the topic in question, not snide remarks aimed at 'point scoring'.

Can you appreciate the difference?

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
25-02-2009, 19:23
No that's not what I want. What I would like if you don't agree is constructive criticism based on genuine experience of the topic in question, not snide remarks aimed at 'point scoring'.

Can you appreciate the difference?

Marco.

For anybody to judge my comments like that, it demands they would know more about the subject than I.
I am not sure you are the one to be in that position.

But I will respect if you want the thread to be represented with only one side of arguments.

"dolph"

Marco
25-02-2009, 20:32
But I will respect if you want the thread to be represented with only one side of arguments.


:doh:

What I don't want is smart-ass comments like this:


And then.........................when did you last enjoy music for real?


as if those who indulge in cable-dressing and address issues of microphony don't enjoy music. What nonsense.

Moving on quickly...!

Marco.

Alan
25-02-2009, 22:43
Crikey! Live & let live already....... :steam:

I'm not sure how to view the idea that only 'well designed' gear rejects the worst effects of microphony. My kit, according to its designer, is not fussy wrt placement & therefore isolation & microphony - this is convenient (see the - ah - 'compromised' configuration I have to live with in the gallery if you're interested) but not the be-all & end-all.

Instead I have to ensure I use the correct interconnects & speaker cabling because the amps are not unconditionally stable. That is a choice made by the designer for sonic reasons and a 'trade off' (not really) that I can accommodate. Does that mean they are badly - or well designed? :scratch:It depends on how it sounds surely (I'm not calling you Shirley, btw). Instead it is a question of using equipment within the correct parameters, rather than buying something that accommodates everything punters throw at it adequately but doesn't really excel.

My I/Cs are sheaved in copper pipes, so I don't know how they deal with microphony. Perhaps quite well, but I was certainly interested enough to move the setup slightly away from the wall as it was no skin off my nose. I think it may sound better, but even if it doesn't it has taken no time to deal with at all. It has left me plenty of time to ......." enjoy music for real?" , perhaps more than posting endlessly on this subject would have.;)

Mike
25-02-2009, 22:50
Hi Alan... (love the 'Lionel RichTea' avatar BTW ;))

I'm going to have a guess that you use NVA gear, and 'sound pipes'?

Alan
26-02-2009, 11:15
How did you guess? Yes, I guess it's pretty obvious from the above. I seem drawn to shiny black for some reason..........;)

Steve Toy
26-02-2009, 14:29
Well, this is timely, Richard Dunn has made a reappearance here and he's very welcome.

MartinT
04-03-2010, 09:56
The one thing I haven't done (and it wouldn't be easy) is to dress my cables in any way or prevent them from touching the wall or floor. I have tried to make some of them dangle, but my preamp to power amp run is too long and also runs alongside some mains cables which I know is a big no-no but I can't help it. At least it's all Kimber which seems to have very good isolation properties so no hum or RFI issues at all.

I will try out my new Mark Grant XLR cable in place of the long pre-power run when I receive it. It will be shorter so this one will be able to dangle too.

Marco - you've seen my rack setup so what would you advise I do?

Marco
04-03-2010, 10:02
Hi Martin,

It's difficult to say, as I never really looked behind your rack when I was there, but I'm sure if I were to do it I'd find a way of optimising things for you in that respect - there's always something that can be done with 'cable dressing' :)

We'll tackle that next time if you want, but to do the job properly it will involve completely dismantling your system and rebuilding it from scratch...

Marco.

Steve Toy
04-03-2010, 10:05
Move your rack an inch or three further from the wall. That will help.

MartinT
04-03-2010, 10:21
I think moving the rack will have to go with total dismantling as the sprung feet won't allow for dragging and the whole lot weighs a ton. I'll think about it.

Marco
04-03-2010, 12:50
To do the job right, Martin, moving the rack away from the wall is a must, so it's up to you :)

One thing I did notice with your rack is that I couldn't get my T/T 100% level with the (super-accurate) Mana spirit level, even with full adjustment being used on the Isonoes, so your rack must not have been 100% level to start with...

Therefore, it might be worth pulling your rack out to re-level it and do the cable dressing, thus killing two birds with the one stone :cool:

Marco.

MartinT
04-03-2010, 13:09
I did originally level the rack fastidiously, but moving equipment around on it has caused the levelling to go off due to the sprung feet. Like you, I noticed it and compensated with the Isonoes. I'll check it tonight and try (!) to level the rack in-place, at least for the moment.

The Vinyl Adventure
04-03-2010, 19:34
well worth getting marco and steve to have a tinker ... analy retentive doesnt even come close... one thing thay did here which i would never have thought of is run the speaker cables out from the centre of the stands and round the front - as can be seen here:

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/69d38f07.jpg

will that make a difference.

we also laid moved the stands from the wall by a good 9" fether than they were...

infact until steve came and robbed my rack this avo, my setup with the tydiest it had ever been... and best sounding to boot!

Steve Toy
04-03-2010, 21:09
Hamish, I'll set it back up again for you on Monday.

Joe
04-03-2010, 21:18
I think moving the rack will have to go with total dismantling as the sprung feet won't allow for dragging and the whole lot weighs a ton. I'll think about it.

it's either that or move the wall back.

MartinT
04-03-2010, 21:42
Ok, at least I've levelled the rack now. I wedged blocks under it 'axle stand' style so that I could loosen off the adjustable feet and set them. It's now level and so is the Techie.

When I have a little time I'll work on the cabling.

Marco
04-03-2010, 22:17
Nice one - keep us posted. Was there any improvement in the sound after your meticulous levelling? :)

Marco.

MartinT
04-03-2010, 22:45
Not that I could hear, but I was getting tired by then. Will play some more LPs tomorrow. Hope the Mark Grant cables arrive soon.

The Vinyl Adventure
04-03-2010, 23:55
I know mark had a shortage of RCA plugs earlier this week martin - if he hasn't already told you that?

MartinT
05-03-2010, 07:15
Yes he has, Hamish. I'm waiting on the plugs for the G1000HDs and also he is making me up an XLR silver cable. It may all come at once.

By the way, the Dynavector arm is now in the country and I should get it early next week. Then it's off to Dave C for the arm board cutting. Not long for you to get the Jelco now :)

The Vinyl Adventure
05-03-2010, 13:47
Sweetness! Exiting times!
I have been without my tt for so long now, I have sort of got used to it not being around... then every time I think about getting it back with the new arm and a fresh oc9.... I can't bloody wait, I've never even heard it in my current system, it will be very interesting to see how it compares to the digital source now I have a system with so much more Rez .... I can see me going through a vinyl only stage :)

if I'm this exited, and your getting the dynavector... ... ...

MartinT
05-03-2010, 13:50
Oh, I'm very excited, trust me. Although Dave will get to play with it first :(

You will find that the OC9 works superbly well in the Jelco (as does my 33PTG), it's really a very good arm indeed and I'm sure you'll be doing the vinyl-only thing that I've been doing recently.

Alex_UK
06-03-2010, 01:14
Sweetness! Exiting times!
I have been without my tt for so long now, I have sort of got used to it not being around... then every time I think about getting it back with the new arm and a fresh oc9.... I can't bloody wait, I've never even heard it in my current system, it will be very interesting to see how it compares to the digital source now I have a system with so much more Rez .... I can see me going through a vinyl only stage :)

Smokers Delight on permanent rotation? (Played it yesterday on the Garrard - yeah baby, the bass on that album...) Enjoy!

The Vinyl Adventure
06-03-2010, 01:24
That will indeed be the first disk to spin!

DSJR
06-03-2010, 13:09
Couldn't be a*sed to trawl through all this suspending cables nonsense...;) My mains wires are rolled uo and jammed underneath the cabinet, so no chance of vibration. The distribution block is sort of suspended I suppose and I am using one of Mark Grant's excellent mains cables to feed it (seemed to make a slight improvement too) and all the signal leads are carefully tucked under the CD player support-platform so cannot vibtrate either. We have little problem with mains quality here and I have ferrites on all the mains leads feeding TV's and computers, although I cannot tell any difference in sound if these things are connected and switched on or not.

I've just stopped worrying about these things as the differences are so tiny (Naim telling people not to use the locks on their DIN plugs begs the question why they thought to use them in the first place and is a road to blown tweeters if a critical plug comes out - been there and done it when I owned their stuff).

All the anti-foo above, yet I'm enjoying music more than ever since I had the big ATC's.....:)

Joe
06-03-2010, 16:51
The dynamic duo would have forty fits if they saw my cabling! The system still sounds great to me, and I'm prolly too deaf to hear the extra 5% improvement that could be wrung out of it.

Themis
06-03-2010, 17:18
I guess I'm like Joe and Dave. Moreover, I doubt there's any 5% to be gained. :ner:

I tried to fix it otherwise, but Black Sabbath's Paranoïd sounds the same... :lol:

Steve Toy
06-03-2010, 17:59
If your system is already optimised in other respects the i/c touching the rear wall will be musically critical. If not there is a bigger bottleneck elsewhere.

Kris
06-03-2010, 18:13
If your system is already optimised in other respects the i/c touching the rear wall will be musically critical.

Musically critical? So is not turning the corners of your curtains up with safety pins.

Snake oil!

Steve Toy
06-03-2010, 18:18
Kris, it's not snake oil or Beltism. You may wish to desist from applying the ridicule. There are other forums for that.

Musically critical in that individual strands of music in a given recording are easier to follow/the sound is no longer so muddled.

There is nothing magic or mystical here, it conforms to the laws of physics notably energy transfer.

Play some music loud and place your hand on the rear wall. What do you notice? What happens if you then couple a component to that source of vibration via an i/c, (especially if you've attempted to address vibration using isolation beneath that component)?

Kris
06-03-2010, 18:52
Sorry, I should have said IMO. And yes, your right, it's not snake oil. I fully understand about cable microphonics and vibration (one of the main reasons microphone cables have a cotton insulation layer is to cushion vibrations).

However when we get to this level, I suggest its more important to temperature control and pressurise the room. Why? Because a change in temperature and/or air pressure will change the quality and speed of the sound.

Kris.

Steve Toy
06-03-2010, 22:08
At least temperature and air pressure levels will affect everything equally. This is no theory. If you have a component which is already isolated from beneath you will hear the effect of then coupling that component to a wall. Idle theories are useless. Explanations for observed phenomena are meaningful.

Themis
06-03-2010, 22:21
If your system is already optimised in other respects the i/c touching the rear wall will be musically critical. If not there is a bigger bottleneck elsewhere.
Steve,I doubt such rules (if <condition> then <effect> else <exception>) exist in hifi ICs regardless of components.
It all depends on the synergy. ;)

Saying "there's a bottleneck somewhere" sounds like an argument I often hear : "if your system is sensitive to ICs touching the wall, then it's broken".

Steve Toy
06-03-2010, 22:37
Dimitri, good hi-fi can only be a messenger. It will reproduce everything, warts and all. Get rid of the warts (anything added to what's recorded on the disc) and the end result is a beautifully vivid reproduction of the music.


Good kit tells you everything. This is something to work with not dismiss.

Idle and glib theories waste bandwidth just as good hi-fi cannot be selectively revealing.

As for synergy that is nothing more than a balance of compromises. I prefer to identify and eliminate the weakest link.

Joe
06-03-2010, 23:03
Actually I've just realised that whilst they might be an unholy mess, my i/cs don't in fact touch the wall anyway; they sort of stick out at the sides.

Themis
07-03-2010, 07:20
Dimitri, good hi-fi can only be a messenger. It will reproduce everything, warts and all. Get rid of the warts (anything added to what's recorded on the disc) and the end result is a beautifully vivid reproduction of the music.


Good kit tells you everything. This is something to work with not dismiss.

Idle and glib theories waste bandwidth just as good hi-fi cannot be selectively revealing.

As for synergy that is nothing more than a balance of compromises. I prefer to identify and eliminate the weakest link.
Can your hifi reproduce the sleeve color of your interconnects ? A red IC sounds different than the same painted blue ? If they sound the same does this mean there's a weak link somewhere ? :scratch:
I can find plenty of examples where "the messenger" is not at fault. ;)

Steve Toy
07-03-2010, 19:30
Dimitri that's Beltism. Now you are taking the piss.

Mike
07-03-2010, 20:10
I have recently nailed all my cables to the wall... Sounds great! :eek:

Stratmangler
07-03-2010, 20:35
On a revealing setup you'll hear coloration in the mid as well as a touch of upper bass boom with an interconnect touching the wall.

If this is the case then it should be possible to set up a proper experiment to test this statement.

I personally fall off the fence a sceptic as to there being audible effects of interconnects contacting walls.

If there are means to prove that there are real effects by proper measurement then it might possibly be shown by playing pink noise through a loudspeaker and analysing the in room response of loudspeaker, both with and without the interconnect being in physical contact with the wall.

Chris:)

Ali Tait
07-03-2010, 21:16
Sounds logical.

DSJR
07-03-2010, 23:01
If your system is already optimised in other respects the i/c touching the rear wall will be musically critical. If not there is a bigger bottleneck elsewhere.

I have a bottleneck and it aint in the stereo system............................:eek:

Themis
07-03-2010, 23:30
Dimitri that's Beltism. Now you are taking the piss.
No Steve, no worries. It was just a joke. ;)

I'm simply trying to explain (quite awkwardly, I admit) that "properly revealing system" is not a solution to anything, we have to be sure there is something to be "revealed" in the first place.

Cable microphony (as I understand it) is of two kinds :
- The cable (or the equipment attached to it) is mechanically sensitive. In this case, it is easy to test: you put the volume very high, then you firmly tap with your nail on the cable. Something should come out of the speakers. If there's nothing coming out, then your equipment (and cables) are not microphonic. Easy.
- The second is that the vibrations interfere with the cables' characteristics. This is impossible to test easily, but some measuring equipment (of the electric characteristics) could show such a phenomenon. In fact, cables' electrical characteristics are very few, so it should be a theory explaining this somewhere, I guess.

I observed cable microphony only once: a stupid RCA switch which had a fault in its grounding on the output.
I did again the experience this morning : I firmly tapped (several times) Mark's interconnects that connect the pre and power, while having my ears stuck against my speakers.... if there was the slightest microphony I would have heard it, wouldn't I ?
So, I conclude that my amps are not microphonic to the cables attached to them.

Which doesn't prove anything at all against your own experience. It's just one more experience.

The Grand Wazoo
07-03-2010, 23:39
............so floors don't vibrate then?
I've lived in houses where floors rattle & wheeze like a queue for nicorette patches, whereas the walls have been 3 foot thick stone.

Themis
07-03-2010, 23:46
Floors vibrate too, some people put their speaker cables on special stands (not me :o)

The Grand Wazoo
07-03-2010, 23:49
Floors vibrate too, some people put their speaker cables on special stands

Erm yes, .....so I hear!

Steve Toy
08-03-2010, 00:14
Opinions on this forum are based on experience not idle theory.

I have experienced this phenomenon twice; once in my own system and once at a dealers.

Valves are microphonic - they amplify vibration. If you tap one of my valves, the Brimar furthest to the right, you can hear a thudding noise through the speakers. Only one valve does this but all the valves are still microphonic and the sound emerging from the speakers can alter in more subtle ways.

Themis
08-03-2010, 07:31
This sounds a sensible explanation to me. It means that an amp equipped with valves which are microphonic, has to be as isolated as possible from surrounding vibrating environment. Cables, plugged to it, included.
It must be a hard work, the way I see it... :(

Steve Toy
08-03-2010, 09:36
Solid state equipment is also microphonic -transports, turntables, DACs, power supplies and amplifiers included.
some components are more sensitive, others less so.
Determining factors would include how well the internal components themselves are isolated within the casework, the type of components used and remember also that they greater the resolving power the greater the potential for vibration-borne unwanted noise to enter the signal path which can manifest itself in more subtle ways than hearing a thud through the speakers when you tap something.

Alex_UK
08-03-2010, 12:08
Play some music loud and place your hand on the rear wall. What do you notice? What happens if you then couple a component to that source of vibration via an i/c, (especially if you've attempted to address vibration using isolation beneath that component)?

But surely the interconnect is even more susceptible to vibration from the movement of air by loud music if it is just dangling? Or am I missing the point? :scratch:

Not being facetious - I can definitely see why you wouldn't want cable against a wall which can vibrate with loud music, but can't understand why they wouldn't be affected by moving air in the same room?

(I'm in the "rats nest" camp, I'm afraid, though I know I should sort them out...:o )

Steve Toy
08-03-2010, 13:28
Alex, as long as you wish to remain in the rat's nest camp will be as long as you remain sceptical.

You feel the vibration in the wall more than in the air. So does the interconnect.

In case you think the wire inside the i/c is conducting noise electrically, it isn't. A plastic drinking straw pushed into an unused phono socket that touched the wall at the other end would have the same effect. The noise is transmitted more quickly down the straw or cable from the wall than through the air.

Think two plasic cups held together with string pulled tight.

Ian Walker
08-03-2010, 17:06
Opinions on this forum are based on experience not idle theory.

I have experienced this phenomenon twice; once in my own system and once at a dealers.

Valves are microphonic - they amplify vibration. If you tap one of my valves, the Brimar furthest to the right, you can hear a thudding noise through the speakers. Only one valve does this but all the valves are still microphonic and the sound emerging from the speakers can alter in more subtle ways.

I reckon you should change that valve Steve before it gets worse.

electric beach
08-03-2010, 18:02
Alex, as long as you wish to remain in the rat's nest camp will be as long as you remain sceptical.

You feel the vibration in the wall more than in the air. So does the interconnect.

In case you think the wire inside the i/c is conducting noise electrically, it isn't. A plastic drinking straw pushed into an unused phono socket that touched the wall at the other end would have the same effect. The noise is transmitted more quickly down the straw or cable from the wall than through the air.

Think two plasic cups held together with string pulled tight.

Hi Steve

I'm currently trying to tame the rats, if only for the sake of good housekeeping. As yet I can't hear a difference but I'll happily accept it, if and when I do.

I'm thinking about the "why" though and as a point of theory I'm finding this logic hard to assimilate; given the said childrens telephone, how would you most easily stop the transmission of the vibration in the string? Touch it with mass.
If you held a feather in your hand and blew vibrations through the air (soundwaves) you could effect the feather - but with an equal force, not a wall.
Or is it that the mass of the wall amplifies vibrations. I can buy into the vibration transfer from road noise though - lorries make my bloody windows rattle, which makes me :brickwall:

The balancing of my system on it's support structure has such an effect that I can remove or change a single footer and hear the difference - markedly so. This does not tell what a dramatic difference this individual cone or whatever is having, as I can take any support element and do the same thing; it shows that I'm breaking the holistic nature of vibration movement, it's transfer around the system and the control of it.

Possibly - possibly - the effect of cables being suspended involves not grounding vibration from the system at this point rather than drawing vibration from the wall. :confused:
It's just a thought; I feel sure the issue of cables touching walls is valid but I'm less sure that the theory which you propose is the reason.

Themis
08-03-2010, 18:42
There's also something that I don't understand about interconnects touching the wall:

I would like to point out that there's nothing in the electrical characteristics of the cable itself that can be modified through mild vibrations (we are not talking about earthquakes, are we ?). Even if we admit that complex solid-state components (like amplifiers) *may* have components that can have their characteristics modified through mild vibrations, this is not true for simple cables... (what to say about microphones and their (long) cables ?)
In other words, only the apparatus connected to the cables can be influenced by the vibrations, not the cable itself.

But then, an interconnect is not a solid component. It is made of various materials, which means they have different vibrating characteristics, in other words, interconnects should already act as some kind of vibration isolation... so how could they possibly transmit any vibrations ? :scratch:

There's something else in the balance, imho.

MartinT
08-03-2010, 19:08
Dimitri

Simple thought experiment: cables have capacitance and inductance. Any vibration can alter the capacitance (especially) and inductance characteristics. The transmitted music can therefore be altered.

Steve Toy
08-03-2010, 19:13
Steve and Dimitri, you are both asking the right questions.

By preventing the interconnect from touching the wall you are not providing a route to ground for vibrations in the wall via your sensitive electronics.

Steve Toy
08-03-2010, 19:25
Martin, I'm not entirely sure that the electrical characteristics of cables are altered by vibration. I think it is purely mechanical until active components become involved. I could be wrong though.

What is certain is that it happens. The reason for it happening remains a mystery although plausible explanations are welcome.

Stratmangler
08-03-2010, 19:31
Steve

Are your floors suspended ?
Are your speakers spiked to a suspended floor ?
I'm trying to get my head around this vibrating wall thing.

Chris:scratch:

Themis
08-03-2010, 19:40
Any vibration can alter the capacitance (especially) and inductance characteristics.
I was desperately looking for such a theory concerning primary materials, (since science is not lacking behind for explaining simple relations of this kind) but I found none.
Could you provide some links, please ?

Themis
08-03-2010, 19:42
By preventing the interconnect from touching the wall you are not providing a route to ground for vibrations in the wall via your sensitive electronics.
This is the most probable explanation, imho, too. It would be interesting to try with different types of ICs (solid core vs multi-stranded) to see whether it applies equally.
If the theory is good, then solid core cables should influence more.

MartinT
08-03-2010, 20:20
Could you provide some links, please ?

There are plenty of examples of vibration to capacitive electrical signal converters such as electret cartridges & microphones, seismic sensors, strain gauges etc.

I can't find links specific to what we're discussing, but my thought experiment holds in that it's perfectly feasible that the capacitance that exists in the cable between conductors could be affected by mechanical vibration.

Themis
08-03-2010, 20:25
If I'm not mistaken, the capacitance of a cable depends on the distance between the two conductors. It would mean that the distance that separates the conductors varies with vibrations... As the conductors are not loose, you would need to squeeze the cable, not just vibrate it mechanically. No ?

Steve Toy
08-03-2010, 20:35
Are your floors suspended ?

No.


Are your speakers spiked to a suspended floor ?


No.


I'm trying to get my head around this vibrating wall thing.

As long as there is a pair of speakers in the room playing music the walls will vibrate. The more dynamic the system the more they will vibrate. The energy is transmitted from the speakers through the air, is picked up by the surface area of the walls and then grounded by anything making contact with the wall that also makes contact with the ground. Via your electronics. Not good.

goraman
09-03-2010, 05:40
Number#25 by Clive:I belive parts of that if not all of it was written a hell of a long time ago by Sam Teleg of Stereophile.

electric beach
11-03-2010, 16:30
From the latest tips document on the updated Vetex site...

" when we install our Vertex kit, and any of the major components in our systems come to that, we need to watch out for unwanted acoustic paths. If we unwittingly introduce these unwanted paths we may reduce the effectiveness of the Vertex components, and/or introduce extra vibration which will re-introduce microphony effects again."

As an example:
"Roraima mains leads coming out the back of components are curved sharply and pressed up hard against a rear wall. Now, the previous examples were obviously hard material against hard, so fairly easy to spot. But whilst the softer braiding on the outside of any cable is not generally all that acoustically conductive, it can become so when its tightly under tension and under load, particularly between an IEC mains socket and a back wall. This poor dressing can produce quite a considerable drop in performance in the worst case."

The Vinyl Adventure
11-03-2010, 17:32
25 pages of tooing and froing ... i dont want to state the blindingly bloody obvious but...
try it, if it works for you - happy days! if it doesnt then fuck it... no harm in trying - you might be supprised... you might not ... but its worth a try - at very least it probably needs a good hover underneath your rack anyway!!!