Cartridges

[Mike - H]

Hi folks, I'm building a new system at the moment, based around a Garrard 401 and Jelco 750L. But the dark arts of cartridges and picking the right one has me confused :scratch: I have a budget of £600 +/-, anyone got any experience they can pass on? I've looked at the Audio-Technica AT33EV and AT-OC9/III, the Benz Ace, Dynavector DV-20X plus several others all of which has caused said confusion. :mental:

Mike

[sq225917]

With what phonostage?

[jandl100]

What sort of sound do you like?

Up front and exciting; laid back, relaxed and enveloping .... ?

What's the rest of your system? - that might give a clue as to your tastes. :)

[Mike - H]

I plan to buy an XTZ A100 amp, so for the present I'll be using its on board phono stage. I listen to a wide range of music :- The Who, Pink Floyd, Bob Dylan, Neil Young with some Warren Zevon, Peter gabriel, Springsteen, early Fleetwood Mac and Genesis thrown in. I use an Ortofon 2m Blue in my present set up of TD166 and RB300 which gives a nice crisp presentation, I'm just not sure the Ortofon will do justice to the new system?

Mike

Edit :- still looking, just on looks alone that Lyra Dorian is Analogue porn!

[AlfaGTV]

The XTZ may be a lot of amp for the money, but i can promise you that even the 2M Blue can offer WAY more with a good external RIAA phono equalizer. :)

IMO you're wasting your money on a Lyra Dorian where you will only have a modest upgrade in SQ. If your put the same amount of money into a Whest, Graham Slee or similar you'll be rewarded with much better sound quality for your hard earned cash! :fingers:


Regards /Mike

[Beobloke]

I plan to buy an XTZ A100 amp, so for the present I'll be using its on board phono stage. I listen to a wide range of music :- The Who, Pink Floyd, Bob Dylan, Neil Young with some Warren Zevon, Peter gabriel, Springsteen, early Fleetwood Mac and Genesis thrown in. I use an Ortofon 2m Blue in my present set up of TD166 and RB300 which gives a nice crisp presentation, I'm just not sure the Ortofon will do justice to the new system?


If you like the 2M Blue, then do give the 2M Black an audition. It's a stunning cartridge.

[RobbieGong]

If you like the 2M Blue, then do give the 2M Black an audition. It's a stunning cartridge.

+1 - A Superb cart !! :)

[Mike - H]

If you like the 2M Blue, then do give the 2M Black an audition. It's a stunning cartridge.


The XTZ may be a lot of amp for the money, but i can promise you that even the 2M Blue can offer WAY more with a good external RIAA phono equalizer. :)

IMO you're wasting your money on a Lyra Dorian where you will only have a modest upgrade in SQ. If your put the same amount of money into a Whest, Graham Slee or similar you'll be rewarded with much better sound quality for your hard earned cash! :fingers:


Regards /Mike


These two posts show the level of my lack of knowledge and confusion, I've been assuming I needed to go MC as the next step up, And one of the major reasons for going for XTZ was its on board MM/MC phono stages.

I have about £1200 for amp + cart, the XTZ is a mint, 12 month old, half price bargain so I'll stay with that? The rest of the amp money was going to be added to the cartridge fund? :scratch::scratch:

Mike

[RobbieGong]

My limited personal experience with mc's has had me look into the idea of one but some will tell you mc's require a decent phono stage and other things sorting to get the best out of them. The 2M Black has been well reviewed and is a highly regarded cart regardless of any mm/mc considerations. The reason for this is that it portrays the characteristics of what people like about good mc's ie: plentiful detail retrieval, very good 3D and lifelike portrayal of instruments ie: horns, strings etc. It is also good at seperation of instruments / parts and that sense of air and space around things. As such reviews often express that it is like a decent mc and arguably one of the best or the best mm around. Lets just say I've never felt inclined to go for another cart at the price (£460ish). I've seen used low hours go for £260ish which is an absolute steel in my opinion of course (Smile)

[MartinT]

You might be better off splitting your budget by going for either an AT-33EV or Denon DL-103 (select according to preference) and a Bob's Devices step-up transformer, running the XTC in MM mode. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but that will give you a very dynamic sound whereas many inexpensive MC input stages are rather flat and lifeless sounding.

[AlfaGTV]

Good advice from all here imo!
I assume the amp is an XTZ A-100D3? It's the only XTZ i know of with a built in RIAA.

I'm a bit curious about what you expect from your new stereo?
First and foremost, what are you expecting from your new vinyl source (incl RIAA)?

Another option for me in that price range would be a DL-103 + Tom Evans Micro Groove, thats a personal favourite! :D I like the dynamics and power from those!

Regards
/Mike

[PaulStewart]

Mike,

Have a read of THIS (http://www.musicosis.co.uk/?p=614) on Musicosis. It's a review of the Goldring Eroica LX this cartridge has enormous "Bang for your Buck" then put any excess to a phono stage. Keep an eye on Musicosis as I'm doing a review of a more budget MM stage plus SUT at the moment.

[DSJR]

Hmmm! Times may well have changed, but I always found both Eriocas highly microphonic in handling and with a nasty nasal quality to the sound - no wonder they've been all but ignored all these years :) HOWEVER, the Jelco 750 with suitable headshell and a touch of damping may be all that's needed to sort these things out.

The Ortofon Black will now be about as good as fixed coil cartridges get I suspect. My choice of Dynavector is coloured by the fact that I don't like the DV20 series (too artificially "analogue" balanced for me), but do like the DV17 series, which may drive some up the pole with its leaner balance, like the OC9 but "firmer" in presentation.

Since the Jelco is so adaptable and can be guaranteed to be rather a significant step up from a TD166 (;)), why not transfer the 2M Blue over and have an epiphany with it before trying anything else :lol:

[the engine]

Unless your going exotic and have fantastic ears....forget moving coils. The ortofon 2mBLACK has changed all that. I ain't heard a coil to match it for all round ability. Most moving coils have one weak area....the Black has none.
It's levelled the playing field. It's stylus is equal to just about any cart. Abd it tracks like it's on rails ! But....it's to good for an integrated phono stage. An seperate one will give a significant lift in sound quality. In my opinion even the much praised benz micro carts are no better or natural than the Black. Needs a hundred LP run in though to get to it's best.
Saying that my plan would be a seperate phono stage first. You might be chuffed at what that blue can do.

[jandl100]

hey, you buggers have got me interested in the 2M Black! :doh:

... but at well over £400 it should be better than a £150 Denon 103. ;)
But is it as good as my Zu-ed rebodied 103? :scratch: -- that's a more sensible price comparison, imo.

Hmm, looking on fleaBay you can get the 2M Black for about £300 from Hong Kong. Although you might get landed with VAT and import duties.

--
Oh, and it's nice to see you here, Ivor (the Engine) :)

[the engine]

Thankee kindly.....don't hear that very often lol.
IMO....
The black creeps up on you. It's not like the denons where a denon virgin might be surprised on first listening. It's more anylitical than the stock denons.. I was a little underwhelmed at first . Then I started hearing other systems and thought..."actually mine sounds better than that " It gets better and better but it's not a revelation when brand new. Can't stress the running in enough. The dynamics and transient speed get better all the time.
I've seen that metal monster you use J....I'd love to here it.

[MartinT]

Unless your going exotic and have fantastic ears....forget moving coils. The ortofon 2mBLACK has changed all that. I ain't heard a coil to match it for all round ability. Most moving coils have one weak area....the Black has none.

While I admire your liking of the 2M Black, be careful not to make sweeping statements. I haven't heard an MM yet that can match a good MC. See how easy it is to do that? :lol:

[the engine]

I honestly meant my opinion only Martin !

And I thought the same and spent thousands on MC's .I really do stick by what I say about the 2 m black levelling the playing field. If you have heard one well run in on a decent set up , what's the minimum price moving coil to your ears that beats it in all areas. ?
I am hunting again carts for a second turntable soon lol. So your suggestions are welcome and that's the thread theme after all.
Iv...

[MartinT]

Well, I won't recommend my Shelter as it's a tad pricy. That and the Ortofon SPU Classic are two of the best cartridges I've ever heard, but only when driving through a SUT. I don't like MCs driving a phono stage directly.

For a second turntable, I would have suggested the Denon DL-160 but they are virtually unobtainable now. Perhaps another Ortofon lower down the range?

[jandl100]

My own experience tallies with Martin's - ime, there's a "musical rightness" and naturalness to a good MC that I haven't heard an MM get even close to. It's the way they handle the subtle details, MMs sound kind of cumbersome and bland in comparison.
The 2M Black get's this right, does it?

I guess the best MMs I've heard are a Goldring 1042 and a Nagaoka MP30. (A Decca Gold probably doesn't count as a) it's a Decca and has its own rule set! and b) it was probably in need of some tlc). Neither 1042 nor MP30 got close to a decent MC, imho. They can do dynamics in a wall-of-sound kind of way, but lack finesse.

All imo, ymmv. :)

[the engine]

It's pretty moving coil-ish...to me. It has a lot more finesse than the goldrings....like I said. More moving coilish hah. Just a little more solidity than most MC's at a similar price.
Note , I did say in my first post..unless you get exotic . Which I meant as 'spend a lot more ' Not a great word admittedly .
And J ...I 'm listening to Szell conducts Wagners 'highlights from the ring' and it's thrilling !

[Clive]

I've been playing with several MMs and learning from Dom too. Not surprisingly the most important aspect as the stylus tip profile and cantilever type. A lightweight cantilever that's rigid with well judged resonant behaviour makes an enormous difference. Any MM that I've heard with an aluminium hollow cantilever sounds very crude. Titanium, boron or beryllium - this is a whole new ballgame, add in a line contact tip and you'd not believe the sound from an MM. Most MMs people hear are not of this quality so they get accused of sounding crude but that's a HUGE over-generalisation.

[jandl100]

It's pretty moving coil-ish...to me. Just a little more solidity than most MC's at a similar price.


Yep, I know what you mean - a lot of MCs can be a little 'fragile' and lightweight sounding. A rebodied Denon 103 gets around this, ime (I've had two) - although a standard 103 is one of the more solid sounding MCs I have heard. (My experience being limited to a £1k-ish ceiling).

[Mike - H]

My line of thinking up to this point, was to use the integrated phono stage until I had settled the MM/MC question. I could do that and buy a 2m black, or I can see a good argument for sticking with the 2m blue (it’s only got a few hours on it) and putting the money into a phono amp, then moving up to a 2m black in time?

The only problem is the amps are either/or, if you fancy a change down the line it gets pricey. Does the SUT fill the gap, allowing the same amp to run a MC? Which then begs the question ‘Which amp?’ for similar money.

[the engine]

Your cock on !
Stick with the blue....get a £500 ish phono stage. (ask here for advice ) ...any half decent amp in future should play from the phono stage ok.
Then maybe invest in a black. My thoughts are that the blue is better than the amps built in phono.
So
Phono stage matey....go get a project phono se..it's projects best product...mc and mm..... Giant killer !

[walpurgis]

Yep, I know what you mean - a lot of MCs can be a little 'fragile' and lightweight sounding. A rebodied Denon 103 gets around this, ime (I've had two) - although a standard 103 is one of the more solid sounding MCs I have heard. (My experience being limited to a £1k-ish ceiling).

I was using a Denon DL-103R which I thought was extremely good until I bought my ZYX R50 Bloom H. It was a revelation. The Denon sounded coloured and weedy next to the ZYX. I also compared it to my Denon DL-304, DL-301, DL160, Decca Export silver, Technics EPC-305 MC, Transfiguration Aria and Goldring Eroica. The R50 blew them all away completely! Needless to say these have all gone now apart from the Erioca and I have since bought a ZYX R100 and R100 H2 and they are amazing!

The ZYX R50 Bloom sells new for a bit over £500, its a bargain.

[MartinT]

The Denon sounded coloured and weedy next to the ZYX.

Potency (as opposed to weediness) is also dependent on two other variables: the quality/rigidity of the arm, and electrical loading. The latter is why I like step-up transformers so much, because they couple the full energy output of the cartridge into the phono amp with high efficiency.

[walpurgis]

Potency (as opposed to weediness) is also dependent on two other variables: the quality/rigidity of the arm, and electrical loading. The latter is why I like step-up transformers so much, because they couple the full energy output of the cartridge into the phono amp with high efficiency.

Yes, I agree. The SUT used with the DL-103R (and the ZYXs) mostly was an Osawa OS-100T, its rather rare and very good indeed. Two other decent SUTs are also used on occasion.

[pure sound]

One issue with the 750L is that it is a seriously heavy old lump, even if a lighter shell like the excellent ADC LMG is used. For this reason I think I'd steer clear of most MM's. It'd be working their suspensions very hard and the arm/cartridge resonance could well get down to warp ripple type frequencies.

It depends on your budget but I might opt for a Shelter 501 with SUT or even the elliptical tipped SPU for even more 'colour'!

[Mike - H]

The cartridge weight range is 4 - 12 grams according to the published info, the 2Ms are 7.2 grams. Where is the problem? not being funny, just asking from a position of complete ignorance :D

Mike

[MartinT]

The effective mass of the Jelco is high and matches low compliance cartridges, usually MCs. All Guy is saying is that the Ortofon may be a touch compliant resulting in a lack of damping at bass frequencies and over warps.

[pure sound]

Indeed, it isn't to do with the mass of the cartridge but the compliance (springiness) of the suspension locating the cantilever. On many MM cartridges this compliance is higher which means that combined with a heavy arm, the resonance can fall down into a region where it can be excited by warp ripple or even movement of the suspension on a sprung turntable. Ideally the resonance occurs at 8-10Hz which is well above the warp ripple frequency/suspension bounce but well below anything recorded on the disc.

[DSJR]

The 750 arm has some optional damping avaliable which although not at the "springy" cantilever end, will help a bit with overall stability. Having seen an ADC XLM (VERY high compliance) being used with no issues in a mass-loaded arm, I think we *may* be overdoing it here - I remember a high compliance V15 III being successfully used in the Techie arms of old (SL1300, 1400, 1500) which were massier than the last offerings on the 1200 series and they worked fine. I'm sure the 2M's will be fine. More importantly, the overload nature of the phono stage at very low frequencies will be more important i reckon.

Thinking about it, what about looking out for one of the Concorde models, with integral headshell fitting? The 20 is around "Red" level and the 30 around Bronze I think?

[Mike - H]

Cheers guys, I had a read up on it after! I posted, so where does that leave my quest? As a result of your collective input, for which I’m truly thankful, long may it continue, I seem to be left with more options than answers :lol: :-

1, use the onboard phono stage for now and - A, buy a 2m black or B, buy a £600 +/- MC

2, spend my dosh on a much improved phono amp and over a period of time grow into the magical world of carts.

I was looking at the top end Graham Slee amps, but there again either/or. I really like what I read about the Tube box SE which is both, but that would leave me with the 2m blue for now + the compliance issue of the Jelco, how big an issue is this?

I have to say I think I’m going full circle and leaning towards using the XTZs amp and buying a better cart now, knowing that asap a new phono amp is required, so guys which f*cking cart?

Mike

Edit - I wrote and posted this without seeing Davids post.
Edit again - Aesthetics play a major part in my choices (probably more than they should) those DJ style carts are awful, no way! sorry Dave.

[the engine]

Forget the tube project. Get a phono se....somehow. No joke it's great and if you find one for a couple of hundred it's your biggest noticeable upgrade for now. You WILL hear an improvement.... Then go for a cart.

[Mike - H]

Hi Andy, I already have a 2m Blue which will get used with the XTZ until I settle on a long term answer, no rushing in and blowing my budget. At present I'm leaning towards MC, and from the input here, an improved phono amp will be needed to make the most of it, but as I say no rush I can still play music.

[AlfaGTV]

Sensible choice for now!

Buy the amp, and continue to enjoy the 2M Blue, but dont pass judgement on it based on what you hear from the built in phono stage.

If you should like what you hear, then i'd go for an upgrade in MM cart, such as the 2M Black or possibly Bronze.
One very good thing with that approach is that you may switch the stylus to your old Blue in a couple of seconds for party nights!

But by all means, when you got to know the sound of the internal phono stage, get something on loan, such as a Graham Slee or similar just to see what you've been missing ;)

Hopefully the XTZ phonostage i greatly improved by now, but have owned it's brother (manufactured in the same plant, but however older) the Advance Acoustic MAP-303. It's built in RIAA was a complete disaster...
Otherwise it was quite a good amp, great build and nice enough soundwise :)

Regards /Mike

[Mike - H]

Sorry Ivor, but your abbreviation of names is playing havoc with my brain, which SE the Graham Slee?

[wiicrackpot]

Mike,

Sorry i deleted the post, noticed you had 2m blue after i posted, :doh: as for MC, how about a Dynavector 10x5?, high output so should suit a MM stage.

[Mike - H]

No probs Andy, I also looked at the DL103r upgraded by the guy at Expertstylus, the problem with carts is they are such a major influence, but you can't try them out.

[rusty bearing]

No probs Andy, I also looked at the DL103r upgraded by the guy at Expertstylus, the problem with carts is they are such a major influence, but you can't try them out.

Yep, have to agree there, its what stops me sinking a wadge of cash into an MC. Now everyone has there opinion as to what sounds best but it's so subjective don't you think. One mans meat etc.

Sitting here playing Clifford T Wards 'Home Thoughts' on a Lenco GL75 (modded) with a 2m blue mounted in an old arm from a Pro-ject 6, all I had spare at the time, sounds brill to me. I did purchase an ECP1 phono stage from a very nice AoS person, not regretted that so the advice to buy a phono stage is spot on.

Might try out the 2m black though, you should buy one and we can all come round for a listen......:)

[AlexM]

Benz Micro ACE SL or SM are fantastic low or medium output MCs. I have the SM and I think it is a fabulous cartridge for the money - very detailed and neutral, with low emphasis of surface noise and very good tracking. Stereo imaging is very wide and deep also.


Check it out if you have a decent MC stage.

Cheers,
Alex

[Mike - H]

Benz Micro ACE SL or SM are fantastic low or medium output MCs. I have the SM and I think it is a fabulous cartridge for the money - very detailed and neutral, with low emphasis of surface noise and very good tracking. Stereo imaging is very wide and deep also.


Check it out if you have a decent MC stage.

Cheers,
Alex

It's already on the short (ish) list, I'm trying to narrow it down to about 4/5, will give it some more thought tomorrow and post it up.

Mike

[samz]

Up until recently I had been using an Ortofon 2M Blue for over 2 and a half years. It was far better than any other cartridge I had used, very detailed and analytical. However, I wanted a change in presentation of the sound for a more warmer sounding presentation, more natural sounding bass. Also wanted a cartridge that would handle surface noise better than the 2M Blue.

The 2M Blue had done approximately 1200 hrs and was still going well. After a lot of research on cartridges, I have read many comments in favour of the Nagaoka Range. I was lucky to buy a used Nagaoka MP-11 Boron and thought I would try it to see if I liked the sound.

The MP-11 Boron has really impressed me. Bass sounds fuller with greater detail and better soundstaging. Placement of instruments and vocals seems easier. Drum kits and double bass have a nice timberal tone and cymbals ring naturally. As a bonus surface noise is very minimal and a big improvement in this area.

I am going to keep the MP-11 Boron for a while before the next likely upgrade, buying a Nagaoka MP200.

[kor952]

I have a Scheu Premier with both a Rega RB 250 and a Jelco 750LB. Carts are 103R and 2M Red. The 2M Red plays very nice in the RB 250 but so so in the 750LB, the 103R plays wonderfull in the 750LB (never tried it in the RB 250). I do not like damping the 750LB.

[Mike - H]

Right guys here's my cartridge short list. The second hand amp fell through so I’m going to buy new, which only leaves funds for a cart or a phono amp for now and save for the other later.

MC
Audio-Technica AT33EV cartridge - £476
Audio-Technica AT-OC9/III - £494
Benz ACE - £595
ZYX R-50H Bloom £500
Denon DL103(Modified) £399

MM
Nagaoka MP-200/300 £400/500
Ortofon 2M Black £460

The Graham Slee Reflex is my favoured phono at the moment

Kor952 could you expand on your comments regarding damping the 750L

Mike

[kor952]

Right guys here's my cartridge short list. The second hand amp fell through so I’m going to buy new, which only leaves funds for a cart or a phono amp for now and save for the other later.

MC
Audio-Technica AT33EV cartridge - £476
Audio-Technica AT-OC9/III - £494
Benz ACE - £595
ZYX R-50H Bloom £500
Denon DL103(Modified) £399

MM
Nagaoka MP-200/300 £400/500
Ortofon 2M Black £460

The Graham Slee Reflex is my favoured phono at the moment

Kor952 could you expand on your comments regarding damping the 750L

Mike

Never tried it myself but I did read a few times that using damping oil on the 750L makes the sound dead (livelyness disapeears). As the mass of the 750L is rather high I would suggest a cart with low compliance like 103, 103R or SPU.
I also have a Benz Micro Glider, for this cart I will use the Rega RB-250, the cart is at Benz right now for a revision of needle and generator, did not try it yet with the Rega. The 103R sounded better than the Glider in the 750L but this may be due to excessive wear of the Glider's needle.

Ronald.

[DSJR]

I believe the 750 damping is adjustable and you never need much. Deadening the sound is indicative of too much in my experience with unipivots.

[Mike - H]

A mate of mine who has the 750l says to follow the instructions carefully, it's easy to over fill it and in extreme cases it leaks oil all over the place. Plus you only need it for heavier MCs apparently.

Mike

[kor952]

A mate of mine who has the 750l says to follow the instructions carefully, it's easy to over fill it and in extreme cases it leaks oil all over the place. Plus you only need it for heavier MCs apparently.

Mike

I thought the damping is needed for high compliance carts (iow many MM carts), because this will result in a too low resonance frequency while the mass of the 750L is rather high.

[Mike - H]

My bad! I looked at the email he sent me and your right :doh:

[Josip Broz Tito]

For really deep joy and top performance:

AKG
P 8 ES Super Nova , AKG Supernova P 8 ES, AKG X8E
or on budget:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/AKG-P6E-Cartridge-AKG-Cartridge-Genuine-NEW-BOX-/140663929420?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item20c0393a4c
London Mk VI Gold

SupexSD-900, Supex SDX-2000

Garrott P77

Shelter 901

[Clive]

I have a very low hours Garrott P77i I would sell, I bought it new a few months ago but I have too many cartridges.

[Josip Broz Tito]

And please, ...forget moving coils. Too much truobles, mismash... and realy good phono nedet for decent result. Don t mention sinergy....and money,..of course.

Go for good MM, and rather change arm for lighter and better.

And spend other on LP colection.

AKG moving iron and Supex are blasfemic good, Shelter also. Garot is enoyable and fun...

[DSJR]

In the UK, it seems the P77 stylus is still being made for pretty sensible money by EsCo, who made later ones when the cartridge was current. If a cheap C or E 77 can be got cheap, adding one of these styli for an absolute total outlay of less than £100 may be a good and ballsy way of enjoying records :)

[Mike - H]

Oh :no: another can of worms

I'm locked into this Jelco arm, so should I abandon MM altogether. The ones that receive good reviews are at the expensive end and I don't want to pay that kind of money and be disappointed, especially if I should have seen it coming. I must say in my defense, I bought the arm with the plan of going MC.

[walpurgis]

I thought the damping is needed for high compliance carts (iow many MM carts), because this will result in a too low resonance frequency while the mass of the 750L is rather high.

High compliance cartridges tend not to need damping and in fact misusing damping with a high compliance cartridge can overload the stylus suspension by demanding too much travel.

Fluid damping works with many types of lower compliance cartridges, such as MCs and Deccas, it helps control the mechanical energy generated by the stylus tracking the record and if the fluid viscosity is right, it also give the stylus suspension/pivot a load to work against, enabling a lower mass pickup arm to be used, such as the Mission 774, which is a damped low mass design that works very well with lower compliance cartridges.

(if you play a record with a Decca without amplification and put your ear near the cartridge you can hear the music coming from the cartridge itself because so much mechanical energy is produced)

[kor952]

High compliance cartridges tend not to need damping and in fact misusing damping with a high compliance cartridge can overload the stylus suspension by demanding too much travel.

Fluid damping works with many types of lower compliance cartridges, such as MCs and Deccas, it helps control the mechanical energy generated by the stylus tracking the record and if the fluid viscosity is right, it also give the stylus suspension/pivot a load to work against, enabling a lower mass pickup arm to be used, such as the Mission 774, which is a damped low mass design that works very well with lower compliance cartridges.

(if you play a record with a Decca without amplification and put your ear near the cartridge you can hear the music coming from the cartridge itself because so much mechanical energy is produced)

Geoff, thanks for the expaination.

Ronald.

[YNWaN]

You can hear the music directly from the cartridge, in the way Geoff describes, with most cartridges in my experience - it's not unique to Decca's. In addition, I must say I'm not a fan of viscose damping for arms and always seem to prefer the results when it is disabled,or set to absolute minimum.

[walpurgis]

Mark is right, it can be heard on many cartridges, seemingly the less compliant the more it is evident. I mentioned the Decca, as it is one of the most audible. Even a record cleaning 'sweep brush' which tracks the grooves can be heard playing in sympathy, which is why I don't use one. All that extra noise being transmitted to your stylus via the vinyl.

Damping benefits some cartridges more than others. Decca had fluid damping in the original International pickup arm and it definitely got the best out of the Mk IV and Mk V cartridges.

Unusually, I've found high compliance ADCs also work well with a bit of light damping.

[DSJR]

Being as one who set up more bloody Hadcock and Mayware arms than you lot have had hot dinners in recent years :lol: and back in the day when mc types were passe, may I assure you that a SMALL amount of damping is mandatory. Just enough to stabilise the arm as one would a car suspension. I also have many ADC's from a 26 to XLM's from mk1 ultra-high-compliance models to the Phase IV and ZLM. The earlier ones were so highly compliant that they need an arm with negative mass ideally.

FFS fellas, the Jelco 750 isn't massively massy you know. It'll be fine with modern fixed coil types like the Ortofon 2M's, Shure 97XE and it looks as though Marco may have tried the highly compliant upper-range Nagaoka's too with no issues. The overall effective mass can be tweaked with say, the modern techie style headshell on the one hand and any number of others at the other.

[walpurgis]

I'm down to a mere five ADCs now Dave.

One 26, one rare 10E Mk II and three 10E Mk IV, I also have a few styli including one or two scarce 27s. (10E Mk II is a beautiful sounding cartridge)

Never used a Mayware or Hadcock though.

Geoff.

[YNWaN]

Mark is right, it can be heard on many cartridges, seemingly the less compliant the more it is evident. I mentioned the Decca, as it is one of the most audible. Even a record cleaning 'sweep brush' which tracks the grooves can be heard playing in sympathy, which is why I don't use one. All that extra noise being transmitted to your stylus via the vinyl.

Yes, I quite agree.


Being as one who set up more bloody Hadcock and Mayware arms than you lot have had hot dinners in recent years :lol: and back in the day when mc types were passe, may I assure you that a SMALL amount of damping is mandatory.

To be fair, my earlier comments regarding minimum damping did not consider either the Hadcock or the Mayware.

[Josip Broz Tito]

I plan to buy an XTZ A100 amp, so for the present I'll :- The Who, Pink Floyd, Bob Dylan, Neil Young with some Warren Zevon, Peter gabriel, Springsteen, early Fleetwood Mac and Genesis thrown in.

Edit :- still looking, just on looks alone that Lyra Dorian is Analogue porn!

Would like to focus a bit:eyebrows:

By my opinion, this kinde of music sounds much better with good MM /arm match (or high output MC like Denon 304). It will- 90% for shure, and by the first good chosen attempts. In sense of music wholeness, vividnes, "rightness" and overall energy dispersion...Even witg good Stanton....

It will not hapen with not really perfectly, or purely chosen MC /arm/phono combination. Good phono is critical here, and costly.

Don t pay too much anxious around cart:mental:.
Put sec. hand AKG Supernova on Jelco, could be good Stanton, Shure 15 III, they love this kinde of music.

Walpurgis yes, 10E Mk II is a really little :steam:magic.