View Full Version : PC Vs CD transport exploration day.
Tony at Coherent Systems in Chalfont St Peter (M25 J16 or M40 J1 or 2) has kindly offered to host a "dedicated CD transport Vs PC front end" exploration day next Saturday 25th August 2012 for anyone who's interested.
He's also put a up a challenge to anyone who thinks their PC frontend can match their std dedicated CD transport for sound quality - see below for details:
Sounds like a fun day could be had and I'm certainly up for it. I will bring my PC/V-link combo along to see how it compares SQ/cost wise to other options. Will probably put my Bushmaster and Dacmagic in the car too, just in case.
I am happy to throw our doors open for PC <> dedicated transport sound quality exploration day.
We can put together a couple of transparent system that will easily reveal any possible differences between the digital transports.
You guys bring along your front ends, laptops, mac books and server based devices, dac's too if you wish.
I'll offer you a bit of fun for you gents, if any one on the day can match the performance of our standard everyday transport with their digital pc based system in red book format (16bit 44.1kHz) with a bit perfect rip or flac made from a ripped CD and certified bit perfect, using the same dac I will make you one of our 4D analogue to your desired length free of charge. You are more than welcome to bring any streaming devices for a work out too.
A Maximum of 10 can be catered for, refreshments will be provided.
What do you say fine fellows?
Tony
If you would like to come along, post here and I'll start a list:
Martinh - PC/JRiver/V-Link II/Bushmaster
John - PC/jplay/USB DAC
NRG
Yomanze
Audio Al
Audio Al
18-08-2012, 12:26
Can I come please :D
Starts at 10 but think a all day event so can come latter
I will bring laptop with Jplay and a usb based dac
Can I come please :D
I've put you on the list Allen.
I'd be looking to get here at 10 or 11 with my sarnies :)
Cheers,
Just picked up a Musical Fidelity V-Link 192 & had a good chat with the guys at Doug Brady in Warrington. The unit is a big step up from my old HagUSB, so it'll be interesting to compare with my transports.
Despite the fact that I’m moving to Spain at the end of the month I would have made the effort to go to this if Tony was prepared to set up an ABX trial.
However, it seems from his later posts that this isn’t his intention and he has in mind a general fun listening session. Fun listening sessions may well be fun, but not much use when making bias free comparisons between components.
Anyone got a well sorted Squeezebox touch that we could compare too? MartinT, do you fancy coming along?
Neal has a corrected SB touch he can bring along, if you ask him nicely he may well obligue.
jandl100
18-08-2012, 15:24
Long way for me, too far really - but I've done this sort of thing before and I know the outcome.
... I would not win any cables! :( ;)
Have a good Saturday chaps, unfortunately I can't come as I'm in Portugal...may the best 'front end' win...:cool:
Sounds good, I'm working that morning though so probably bit of a stretch. Shame, could bring my dCS gear, I think I'd have a very good chance at the cables :)
...
However, it seems from his later posts that this isn’t his intention and he has in mind a general fun listening session. Fun listening sessions may well be fun, but not much use when making bias free comparisons between components.
Rubbish.
I'm committed for the next 4 weekends unfortunately, overseas visitors, End of the Road Festival, SXSC festival and Wales (in that order).
Not sure my friends from abroad would appreciate it if I fooked off and left them to listen to Hi-Fi, especially if I took mine with me :lol:
purite audio
19-08-2012, 11:01
I use a Weiss MAN301 network player /server here, it can play CDs directly or stream them from a NAS ,when you compare the ripped file to the Cd they are identical, which is what I would expect from a properly designed and implemented product.
Keith.
Sounds good, I'm working that morning though so probably bit of a stretch. Shame, could bring my dCS gear, I think I'd have a very good chance at the cables :)
Hi Russell,
Would you be using the USB input with your DCS dac?
Hi Tony. Yes I have the Upsampler connected by async USB to the PC and then firewire out to the DAC. You could use the AES or SPDIF input on the Upsampler to take a transport output and get firewire to the DAC the same way. I use ASIO output from the PC, if a transport was similarly bit-perfect you'd have the same data in both cases. With async USB though you can slave your data source to the DAC's internal clock and in my experience this beats slaving the DAC to a transport. I know dCS are big on external clocks but I wasn't so impressed with that tbh.
Thank you Russell
Connecting the upsampler to the PC, that is new to me :)
If you have the right software player (a great many use the SRC) which would negate the use of a dedicated upsampler and associated rfi / emi pollution. even with galvanic isolation and 'quashing / isolation' of the 5Vdc power feed, I've found usb to be convenient, though not the best for sound quality, though a great many of our clients do use USB.
We used the older dcs stacks in our recording studio until four years ago, when we switched to DXD which gave us greater flexibility and outright resolution for the purposes of mixing and mastering it works incredibly well.
All of our digital workstations are linked via master clock and Ethernet.
For personal use; a custom server, feeding the dac via a bespoke studio breakout box (Ethernet). After a lot of experimentation with processors, power supplies, audio cards, and many dac’s I adapted a word clock input to the PC, which is slaved to the dac (s) via a Rubidium clock.
All data audio conversion is performed outside the server / PC environment
That seems to make a fair stab a recreating what we record in the studio. And those mediocre high resolution that seem to be on sale currently from certain quarters;)
Yes it's good to have a reference, something to aim for. I used to like just connecting up my dCS 904 ADC and 954 DAC and playing vinyl through it real-time, sounded great especially when compared to then quite poor play-back from the PC (this was quite a few years ago).
Despite the fact that I’m moving to Spain at the end of the month I would have made the effort to go to this if Tony was prepared to set up an ABX trial.
However, it seems from his later posts that this isn’t his intention and he has in mind a general fun listening session. Fun listening sessions may well be fun, but not much use when making bias free comparisons between components.
John, have you ABX'd your decision to move to Spain over your current situation and well as all other possibilites? :ner:
John, have you ABX'd your decision to move to Spain over your current situation and well as all other possibilites? :ner:
Of course Clive. :lol:
I stood blindfolded outside the flat I live in here in England with my modest income, felt the rain on my face, listened to the conversations around me, most of which I couldn’t understand and had difficulty hearing above the traffic noise and the passing emergency vehicle sirens, hoping I didn’t look too conspicuous to the surveillance cameras trying not to interfere with the human traffic coming and going to town clutching their latest must have purchases in their hands as the packaged rather tasteless meal I had recently eaten digested. I then asked my daughter to join in the trial, also blindfolded just in case I was suffering from any perception difficulties due to mood fluctuations.
We then compared the above to standing on the terrace of the farmhouse in Spain on the edge of a National Park a couple of miles from the nearest village where one could just hear the livestock above the sound of the breeze blowing through the trees and the encouraging shouts of a farmer to his donkey (okay, I didn’t understand the language here either) as they passed by with the weeks shopping (minus any packaging, locally grown and minus any plastic and polystyrene) under a warm sun with the smell of the fig trees and the herb garden coming and going as the breeze changed considering whether the meal of fresh local produce I had eaten with members of my family had sufficiently digested to enable me to take the farms donkey up the mountain to gather logs for the wood burning stoves.
I was going to let you know the results as soon as the trial had finished with a view to gathering some consensus about the validity of the trial and what our perceived impressions meant in the real world of internet and mobile phone communications, but the solar panels were on charge mode and my daughters mobile couldn’t get a signal.
I realize what I should have done is let a couple of salesmen show me a far more convenient single bed apartment on the Costa Del Sol compared to a new build development for those over sixty recently knocked up on the edge of the rather problematical local council housing estate, but when we worked out their commission and that unlike the other two options above, no free home trials were available and the outstanding 10 out of 10 trial scores, Spain, outperformed England to my perception by a considerable margin.
Just as long as it was a valid test.....so you did know which country you where in when blindfolded, when in Spain you could have been there on a freak day ie when it was raining....
Enjoy the new lifestyle!
Just as long as it was a valid test.....so you did know which country you where in when blindfolded, when in Spain you could have been there on a freak day ie when it was raining....
Enjoy the new lifestyle!
Thank you Clive. :)
I’ve had few home trials now of various durations and I’m fairly confident that long term experience will confirm my initial impressions.
I would be lying if I didn’t say I felt any apprehension but I’ll have the support of my family and I really don’t like, or can’t afford, what passes as a satisfactory life in this country.
Ali Tait
20-08-2012, 14:47
Good on yer John, hope it all works out for you.
Tony at Coherent Systems in Chalfont St Peter (M25 J16 or M40 J1 or 2) has kindly offered to host a "dedicated CD transport Vs PC front end" exploration day next Saturday 25th August 2012 for anyone who's interested.
Martinh - PC/JRiver/V-Link II/Bushmaster
John - PC/jplay/USB DAC
NRG
Yomanze
Audio Al
Sorry guys but am in Italy on the 25th. :(
Good on yer John, hope it all works out for you.
Thanks Ali. :)
Comes a time when you have to walk the walk if you're going to talk the talk.
Despite the fact that I’m moving to Spain at the end of the month...
Bona sort!
John - hope it is all you expect it to be. If I was considering upping sticks and moving abroad, Catalonia would be very high up on the list of places I'd consider.
Could I have an update on those who wish to attend on Saturday please?
Tony
Hi Tony, I hope to be there. Wont be able to stay late (not that you probably want us there late!)...probably up to or just past lunch...depends on what my better half has planned for Saturday...
Audio Al
22-08-2012, 12:52
Could I have an update on those who wish to attend on Saturday please?
Tony
I am still willing to come
Warning though , I am a novice at these things
I can bring the following if any use on the day
I pod
I phone 4
I pad 2
I Mac
All above with some sounds loaded
and I purchase a DAC with a Gator board ? ( I think :lol: ) not wired it up or used it yet so don't know how it works :D
If you don't reach worthwhile numbers to put the event on ,
its not a problem , just say and all will still be good with me :)
I be around 1 Tony
I bring a laptop using Jplay we can try it through one of your DACS and I also bring mine along too
Ill be there at around 1:00 with my pc, dacs and v-link.
Cheers,
Thank you chaps, so far
John
Martin
Neal
Al
If I said we start from 12 noon onwards that should give people time to sort out those Saturday morning things you have to do.
I'll provide refreshments and nibbles as well.
we room for 10 so if anyone else is interested you are more tha welcome.
Tony
Good luck with the day guys, will be a lot of fun.
Always good to get together and chinwag in real life. :)
Look forwards to reading the findings.
Hi Tony. I'm keen to come along, it sounds like it should be a really worthwhile session. I just need to see how the work pans out on Saturday morning and keep my fingers crossed the M4's ok :)
Hello Russell
The M4 is very hit and miss on a Saturday, are you comming from Gloucester way or up from the lower Avon direction?
Yeah, in Bristol so just getting out of the city can be a pain.
A customer of the Right Note's Jeremy?
No it was Audioworks, originally from Manchester way.
Audio Al
24-08-2012, 14:40
Sorry people
I will not now be able to attend :(
No1 daughter has ordered a wait and load 6 mtr skip for 11am Saturday to clear all the rubbish .
And I jot the phone call " Dad can you come and help as we only have 1 hour to load it "
Great !!
don't you just love kid's
Sorry
brian2957
24-08-2012, 15:01
This looks really interesting guys , too far for me though . I hope you have a great day and I look forward to your findings .
Stuck on m3 at moment. Should be there at 1:30
guyhayton
25-08-2012, 12:15
jealous cannot be there... sounds like its going to be fun
Just got home after a fantastic day out. Big thanks to Tony for his hospitality. Report (and photos) to follow :).
Cheers,
Yes cheers Tony
I let Martin report
Met up with Neal (NRG), John (John) and Darren (drrd) at Tony's (Mr C) place as planned and I certainly had a great day out, so thanks to Tony and the chaps.
Here's my report - I hope that I haven't missed anything or got anything wrong from the day. Hope you don't mind me posting the photos.
Tony set us up with a very nice system to play with, comprising of a Belles Pre-Power combo and a pair of Vivid B1 speakers. Hope I got that right Tony.
http://www.chelsea-bathrooms.co.uk/Setup.jpg
We had three "budget" file based systems and Tony's Bel Canto transport:
Martinh - Acer PC/W7/JRiver/USB/V-Link/Bushmaster
Neal - Laptop server/Highly modified Touch/Bushmaster
John - Laptop/Jplay/USB/Chinese DAC
Darren brought along some very nice looking dcs Scarlatti Kit, which sadly, we didn't have time to listen to.
So we started off by listening to "Out of the Green Sky" by Mostly Autumn through each of the systems.
It was difficult to make a good comparison, as there was quite gap between trying each player (we were still faffing around with the setup). However, I thought that they all sounded very respectable. I especially liked the sound of John's £200 chinese DAC. Very smooth and musical indeed.
We could have been more organised with our music selection and the methodology of the day, as it wasn't really easy to make direct comparisons between kit. For instance, we could exchange FLACS easily between us to play via the file-based machines, but we didn't have the original CDs availalbe to compare them to the CD transport :doh:
This didn't really matter, as it wasn't really a competition, just a relaxed get together.
Below: Darren, John and Neal being tortured listening to Mostly Autumn :lol:
http://www.chelsea-bathrooms.co.uk/punters.jpg
Switching to "Aretha" by Rumer, we managed to do some useful comparisons between Neal's Touch and my PC/USB/v-link and I was surprised that I could easily tell them apart in the AB comparison (with my eyes closed).
We also compared the V-link optical Vs the Coaxial and all agreed that the coax sounded better into the BM.
Then we tried the Bushmaster on battery power, not much difference for me, except Darren reckoned that the V-link optical then sounded as good as the coaxial.
Maybe the reason that the battery didn't improve things much was that the Bushmaster had the Sbooster on the PSU. Taking the Sbooster out definitely degraded the Bushmaster sound, so a worthwhile investment for £30. Battery power is good, but not worth the battery-management hassles IMHO.
So, not very scientific, but very interesting indeed and great fun. Tony finished off by giving us a demo to show us what those amps and speakers can really do. Wow :).
My conclusion was that all of the file-based systems held their heads up high - all sounded great in the reference system. It shows that you can have a great sounding source for not much money.
The Bushmaster sounded great too and being able to hear the differences between input types and power options was very useful for me.
I think we should do more of these events, as it gives us a chance to meet up, have fun and compare kit at the same time. Magic :)
Very similar views to Martin
For me the highlight was listening to the TAD reference speakers
I think if we do this again we each need to bring one CD so we can hear it through the reference system via transport and also via file
I thought we all had very good sources and just blows me away what can achieved withouut spending crazy money
It always great to meet members and Tony made us feel comfortable
So was there any consensus on files-based vs CD transport, even if the comparisons were difficult to do due to the music selection?
Was the transport clearly preferred?
Was it a little better?
No better?
Worse?
Really hard to decide we did not hear a fair comparsion between the two I tend to suspect for ultimate performance Tony might be right as he is very familar with all the different design approaches to digital playback. What it confirmed is how much difference mastering makes ( but we already knew that). Also we did not have a design approach like John (Welder) or Tim to really compare
Ali Tait
26-08-2012, 09:44
Looks like an interesting day out, shame it was too far for me. I'd have liked to see how the TFS compared.
Oh, how disappointing.
Didn’t Mr C have any CDs?
I was under the impression Mr C was going to demonstrate a CD replay system that was going to blow the file based systems out of the water.
I would have thought, as a dealer promoting CD replay with Tera Bytes of music on file, Mr C would have made sure a direct comparison was possible.
Who won the interconnects then?
sq225917
26-08-2012, 09:59
Never heard of burning cd'rs boys?
Never heard of burning cd'rs boys?
That risks introducing another variable. How often have we heard that CDRs sound better or at least different? It could be they only had flacs, not wavs. Mind you I suppose they could have ripped 2 or 3 tracks there then but they were having fun so I expect they couldn't be bothered.
The CDs that I had planned to take we're left on my desk as I rushed out of the door and my PC doesn't have a cd drive or dbpoweramp installed... Next time, I'll be more prepared :mental:
I think John is right in that each person should take a cd or two with the FLAC files on a thumb drive.
We also had issues with my PC not recognising either the Bel Canto or Chinese DACs without the drivers. The v-link doesn't need a driver to work :)
This meant it was impossible to try other USB dacs with my PC without a lot of faffing around.
It was the first time I'd done something like this and I've learned a lot from the experience. When's the next one?
Tony said with most of his CDs he has altered the mastering
The only CD we had was pretty poor mastering and even when I played the file back at home it stil sounds pretty poor compaired to most of my files
It still was fun Tony Tad speaker reference system is very good and think it would of proven more worth while to test on that system
Sounds like it could be a precursor for other events maybe?
I did kind of think that the laid down challenge may not come to fruition and I would prefer something like an ABX test to be honest as John mentioned, if for no other reason than to confirm what's possible for so little money. These things need quite a bit of time to setup away from their home environment, especially an ABX. I did think it funny no-one had CD's for their FLAC files for a comparison . . . doh!
Sounds like you guys had a good day out anyway and its always good to put a face with a name, good of Tony to accommodate too, I would have been very interested to hear the Bel Canto boxes :)
Mostly Autumn . . . nice, is that Heather Findley, she can certainly belt out a tune - I bet John brought that ;)
Nope it was Tony
Did you like it John?
I thought the recording pretty shabby but like them live
Tony said with most of his CDs he has altered the mastering
So using Tony's music you'd need to have copied his track onto a memory stick...has he applied VST/DSP to the tracks?
He has his own recording studio so not possible to use his CDs to do test
Just to clarify his re-master versions sounded better than the orginals He still has orginal cases and just for private use
One of the learnings for me is just how few albums are mastered for high end systems
wee tee cee
26-08-2012, 17:09
Just to clarify his re-master versions sounded better than the orginals He still has orginal cases and just for private use
One of the learnings for me is just how few albums are mastered for high end systemsJohn,
Hope you dont mind me asking, what's the Chinese dac you are using?
Vlab balanced usb dac but remember Jplay helping it a lot
Would like to say a big thank you to those that made the trip on Saturday.
John, Neal, Martin, Russell, and a special thanks to Neal who made a mad dash back home to retrieve his remote for his Squeezebox top man!
A very interesting afternoon played out, though unfortunately we just plain ran out of time.
However what came out of this, a few things:-
The streamer based systems all had a few niggles at some point before getting into their stride, your average music listener (non audiophile) would have either torn their hair out or gone down the pub :) long before the perseverance of the assembled group would have worked out the issue.
That aside, when comparing the two a squeeze box driven system and a I-pad storage based control system using J-play the differences we more personal than really obvious.
Neal's set up I felt had more 'balls' and drive to the music with a touch more solidity, Martin's didn't give much away here, yet for myself, had a greater sense of delicacy and layering, better texture as well.
Martin used USB data transfer, Neal used Ethernet, and Martin did use a reclocking device (MF V-link) between the streamer and the dac.
six or one half a dozen of the other, I believe we used a Rumer track for this part fo the proceedings.
If you looked at the costs involved, for Martin’s system including the dac, V-link and all the bits under £1000 for a very respectable sound indeed.
Martin had issues hooking up to the wifi so used his sexy little 'Joy-pad' as a controller.
We did rip one disc which I had that was actually virgin in nature, as for the sound quality that's how it come, not compressed just poor mixing I'm afraid which is a problem that effects us all, what ever style of music we like.
What we did not get round to trying was the Ripped V's Original CD played in the PC that made the rip (played through the same software player) V's the CD transport with the original CD that the rip was made from V's the original master file (red book) downloaded.
We will actually do this, I am going to organise another afternoon (after we move next week lol) We will be better organised next time I promise.
However It was great afternoon, good to meet John, Neal, Martin and Russell.
With regard to the music that was played at the end, only the last seven tracks were re-mastered, the Stevie Wonder, and first Beatles tracks were original cd's.
Thanks again guys
I think if we do it again we should do it via your reference system Tony which is stunning
The mixing on the Mostly Autumn album was pretty bad I am not sure if we really got a true sense of what was doing what
Anyway it was fun and nice to meet everyone
Thanks again
The streamer based systems all had a few niggles at some point before getting into their stride, your average music listener (non audiophile) would have either torn their hair out or gone down the pub :) long before the perseverance of the assembled group would have worked out the issue.
Yes, we had some set up issues and it's certainly more tricky than plugging in a CD player. That's why I wouldn't recommend a PC based system to anyone without at least a good working knowledge of PCs.
However, once the thing is initially configured, there is next to no maintenance required and the user experience is very good, especially if you use something like JRemote on a tablet to control it.
If you looked at the costs involved, for Martin’s system including the dac, V-link and all the bits under £1000 for a very respectable sound indeed.
To give more details of my setup:
- Acer Revo RL70 inc. W7 64 bit, 750 GB HDD, 4GB Ram, card reader, WiFi, wireless keyboard and mouse, HDMI and optical spdif etc £250 all in.
- JRiver 17 licence £30.
- Musical fidelity v-link II £100.
Total without the tablet is £380, which I reckon is a bargain for the SQ that I am getting.
Cheers,
StanleyB
28-08-2012, 10:31
If you just want to listen to 16Bit/44.1KHz WAV files then a CD player can't be beaten IMO. But for other file formats, sampling rates, and bit rates you have few choices other than a media player of some sort.
Hey Neal,
Really enjoying listening to Ernest Ranglin - thanks for introducing me to his music at Tony's.
Relaxing to Below the Baseline on spotify before I go to the office :)
Cheers,
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